French Open 2016 final: [1] Novak Djokovic vs [2] Andy Murray

Ultron or Muzziah?


  • Total voters
    183

Mr Feeny

Hall of Fame
Did you stop following basketball after 2008? What year is this?

What the heck are you talking about?
What does 2008 have to do with anything?

If we're discussing titles won as lead dog, then only MJ, Duncan, Magic and Shaq have won more.

None of Duncan, Magic or Shaq have more mvps than Lebron ofcourse.
We're talking about the player who is:

#2 all time in PER
#1 all time in vorp
#1 all time in playoff ws/48
The single best scorer in elimination game history (3 ppg)
The single best scorer in game 7's history (30.8 ppg)
Most 40 point playoff games since Jordan
3rd all time in playoff assists
4th all time in playoff points (will be 2nd behind Jordan within 12 months)

All at the age of 31.
Don't come at me with team accomplishments either. As in individual player, nobody since Shaq (possible with the exception of Curry ) is even on a patch with lebron.

And certainly not the 24.9 ppg 44%fg career scorer who averages 40% in nba finals and 25% in finals game 7's.
What nonsense are you spouting? The inference was clearly that Kobe needed Shaq to win titles while he proved that he CLEARLY didn't and also became the ONLY all-time great to win more than one title without a fellow all-time great player (Gasol will only make hof based on foreign accomplishments, isn't top-75, 0 playoff wins before Kobe).

The bottom line is that LeBron would have ZERO titles without colluding. NONE. He is about to move to a pathetic 2-5 in the finals and he wouldn't have made it nearly that many times had it not been for his hiding in the East with the joke competition (another Nole parable). You LeBron/Nole fanboys can spout all you want about statistics but history remembers the context. LeBron needed the most stacked team in modern history to win a title like Novak needed a weak era to win the French. And this current Cavaliers team was supposed to have the makings of a super team but will fall utterly short again as LeBron fails yet AGAIN.

Two LOSERS.

A guy who averaged 15 ppg on 36% most certainly did need Shaq.

2009 Kobe was far removed from 200-2002 Kobe. 7 years later. This shouldn't be confusing to you.

Your idol is a 40% finals scorer and a 25% finals game 7 scorer. That says it all.
He's one of the worst players in nba history in the clutch and has 1 mvp in 20 years of basketball.
He's 23rd all time in PER.
His drpm is 0.1. Yes, you're reading that correctly.

We're comparing individuals. And there's a reason he's not considered a top 10 player by most fans. Espn, sports illustrated, realgm, Insidehoops or even social media.

Fans who do understand basketball know that comparing individuals is just that - Coomparing individuals.
And your hero just isn't that good, unfortunately.
 

sbengte

G.O.A.T.
Well, congrats to Novak and his fans. He now has the full box set of Slams and finally fills in the 1 missing piece that puts him fully on a par with Federer and Nadal as the untouchable Big 3 of Tennis! He certainly worked hard enough for it and had to undergo some bitter disappointments along the way before he finally got there. That's the one last big monkey finally off his back once and for all!

As for Andy, obviously he did well to finally complete the full set of all 4 Slams finals played. He played so well and aggressively in that 1st set that I really thought he had a chance. Unfortunately, he couldn't keep it up (the familiar story of his last 3 Slam finals). Maybe the rigours of his draw finally got to him. Who knows?

Someone said he looked exhausted in the first set itself and I thought so too, but then I shrugged it off saying that is how he looks always.

Was something up with him as he was complaining about his legs ? Inexplicable how he just went away after the first set.
 
As for Andy, obviously he did well to finally complete the full set of all 4 Slams finals played. He played so well and aggressively in that 1st set that I really thought he had a chance. Unfortunately, he couldn't keep it up (the familiar story of his last 3 Slam finals). Maybe the rigours of his draw finally got to him. Who knows?

I think it was largely fatigue. Too much tennis over the fortnight. You could tell he didn't really have leg strength towards the end, even if he kept running hard for shots and trying. He started the tournament with two long 5 setters and had fairly tough quarterfinal and semi final 4 setters with lots of running, even if in the semi he was always in firm control he still ran a lot on court playing a huge hitter who also likes the use of sharply angled shots.
 

Djokovic2015

Semi-Pro
Andy, Fed, and Novak all have runner up trophies at every grand slam.

Wimbledon REALLY is going to be a great tourney

small correction, Novak has no plate at the AO 6-0 :D

When will the streak end I wonder. 5 in a row would top the Grand Slam IMO.

Agreed. Outside of an insane day from a big server (like Anderson last year but without the fading) I think only Andy has a shot against him at Wimbledon. Novak has beaten Rafa and Roger at all 4 slams and Andy at all but Wimbledon, so would like to see that match up.

Today is one of those days I'll never forget mate. Words can't even express how elated I feel right now. :)

Me>You, but 16 could top us both o_O:):cool:
 
Djokovic fans:

Favorite basketball player: Stephen Curry
Favorite female tennis player: Muguruza
Favorite basketball team: Warriors
Favorite Soccer player: Messi
Favorite soccer teams : Germany, Barcelona

Actually I'd say that applies far more to Nadal. Every Nadal fan on Facebook seems to have a FC Barcelona profile header or a Kobe one (which is basically the equivalent to Warriors), etc.

Most people in the world don't even know who Djokovic is. Meanwhile teenage girls back in 2006-09 where fawning over Nadal at my HS and they are the barometer of sheep followers.

#staymad
 

sbengte

G.O.A.T.
He will recieve his 6th ITF award soon and has already qualified for WTF where he will eliminate Feds WTF titles advantage over. Today he has eliminated Nadal and Petes greatness along with any Clay advantage Fed or Wawrinka had over him.

Pete's I understand but Nadal's ? Did he win his first RG or 10th ? :confused:
 

xFedal

Legend
Pete's I understand but Nadal's ? Did he win his first RG or 10th ? :confused:
Novaks got the complete Resume, and the Novak slam. Nadal is clutching onto RG advantage in the slam Tally... Soon that too shall be reduced when Nole wins more slams, WTF, YE#1 Masters, ETC.
 
Actually I'd say that applies far more to Nadal. Every Nadal fan on Facebook seems to have a FC Barcelona profile header or a Kobe one (which is basically the equivalent to Warriors), etc.

Most people in the world don't even know who Djokovic is. Meanwhile teenage girls back in 2006-09 where fawning over Nadal at my HS and they are the barometer of sheep followers.

#staymad
....just concluded a Grand Slam men's final and the fanbois are more concerned (obsessed) with flamming other fanbois....

Tennis? ...who cares?......screw the tennis...:rolleyes:
 

Mr Feeny

Hall of Fame
Pretty cool to see a fellow basketball fan on here, however assuming the bolded is Kobe Bryant let's make sure to have an honest discussion especially if you're using advanced metrics for LeBron. ;)

His TS% (true shooting percentage) was exactly the same as Jordan's prior to the crap show of the last 2 seasons post-achilles tear.

And I *HATE* Kobe.

Hi mate. You've been misinformed. His TS was not Jordan's level, not that we should randomly remove certain years to help a player's case.

In that case, why not remove Jordan's last 2 crap years with Washington?

Let's do that in fact:

Jordan: 31.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.7 apg on 51%fg
Kobe. : 24.9 ppg, 5.2 rp . 5.2 apg on 44.7%

In finals
Jordan 33.6 ppg, 6 rpg, 6 apg on 48%fg
Kobe. 25 ppg , 5 rpg. , 5 apg. On 40%fg

Not that I have to bring up Jordan. You could bring up lebron, Chris Paul, Durant or Curry
They all have better stats than Kobe and are more efficient.

That "ts%" is the figure cherry picked by Kobe fanboys to help his case because that accounts for free throws which increased after the 2005 reinterpretation of handshaking.


The safest comparison is Lebron James and lebron james does literally everything better

27 ppg, 7 rpg. 7 apg on 50%fg
Vs
24.9 ppg, 5.2 rpg and 4.7 apg on 44.7%fg for Kobe

Even as a 3 point shooter, James is 33.9 while Kobe is 32.9. There's literally nothing comparable.

One is leaps and bounds ahead of the other.


In elimination games, both Jordan and lebron average more than 30 ppg while Kobe is at a measily 21 ppg on 39%fg
in finals, he's at 40%
In finals game 7's he's at 25%
In game 7's overall he's at 41%.

This isn't a knock. He just isn't a top top player.
 
What nonsense are you spouting? The inference was clearly that Kobe needed Shaq to win titles while he proved that he CLEARLY didn't and also became the ONLY all-time great to win more than one title without a fellow all-time great player (Gasol will only make hof based on foreign accomplishments, isn't top-75, 0 playoff wins before Kobe).

The bottom line is that LeBron would have ZERO titles without colluding. NONE. He is about to move to a pathetic 2-5 in the finals and he wouldn't have made it nearly that many times had it not been for his hiding in the East with the joke competition (another Nole parable). You LeBron/Nole fanboys can spout all you want about statistics but history remembers the context. LeBron needed the most stacked team in modern history to win a title like Novak needed a weak era to win the French. And this current Cavaliers team was supposed to have the makings of a super team but will fall utterly short again as LeBron fails yet AGAIN.

Two LOSERS.

Pathetic. Kobe was surrounded by a HOF coach (hint: he has zero titles without PJax, PJax has 6 without Kobe), Pau Gasol (a 20/10 guy his entire career), Andrew Bynum (a top 3 center and a defensive stalwart), and Lamar Odom (a nightly triple double threat). He was gifted the 2010 Finals MVP despite going 6-24 in Game 7 and Gasol having been the deserving one.

Meanwhile, LeBron gets held to a much higher standard. He was expected to win a title with Sasha Pavlovic as his #2 (and I loved Sasha but he was a bench player on any other team) or Mo Williams as his #2. His coaches, history has shown, are treadmill guys who you hire to help you tank your way to a lottery pick. Drew Gooden was a starter (or JJ Hickson). LeBron averaged 38/8/8 against the Magic only to get knocked out. What was he supposed to do to please you? Average 50/12/12?

As for Djokovic, history will be very kind to him. You can spout "weak era" all you want, but Djokovic proved that he belonged on the same stage as Federer/Nadal from 2011 onwards. Right now I'm seeing many people putting Djokovic above Nadal (personally I'm holding off until he wins 14) for his continued dominance, Masters, etc. Right now, his legacy is set as an all-time great. From here on out, it's about putting together a GOAT-contended resume.
 

Djokovic2015

Semi-Pro
Pete's I understand but Nadal's ? Did he win his first RG or 10th ? :confused:

He won his 1st RG to match Rafa's 1 AO, has the AO record to answer Rafa's FO record (but less dominant) and already surpassed his legacy at both USO and Wimb.
Along the course of the year he surpassed Rafa in h2h as well as masters titles (areas Fed never surpassed him in).
He holds a 5-0 edge in WTF titles and 4-2 (very likely to be 5-2 and if you value ITF even 6-2) YE #1 finishes.
He also won the NCYGS that neither Rafa nor Fed could ever do

I still got Rafa above Novak for now, but I would move Novak in front with 13 given the other accolades and there is enough argument for some to already rank him above Rafa.
 
....just concluded a Grand Slam men's final and the fanbois are more concerned (obsessed) with flamming other fanbois....

Tennis? Screw the tennis...:rolleyes:

LOL @ expecting rational discussions on TTW. I'm on Facebook talking with an old coworker who great up watching Laver. I'm merely reading the comments and taking *seconds* or a minute at the most out of my day to respond.
 

Djokodal Fan

Hall of Fame
Why are some fans saying they cried? I never understood such things. lolol. Elation is one thing, but tears?
Not sure. I wanted Novak to win RG so badly. It was just emotions overflowing as he finished the last point. It was a long time coming after so many heartbreak moments dating right back to RG 2011 semis when Roger decided to turn the clock. It really was a long time coming. The very hard 2013 semis loss to nadal and 2015 final to wawrinka when he was expected finally win after defeating nadal and Murray last year. I just don't know how to explain this as a fan.

May be Roger fans had similar emotions when he won in 2009
 

xFedal

Legend
Pretty cool to see a fellow basketball fan on here, however assuming the bolded is Kobe Bryant let's make sure to have an honest discussion especially if you're using advanced metrics for LeBron. ;)

His TS% (true shooting percentage) was exactly the same as Jordan's prior to the crap show of the last 2 seasons post-achilles tear.

And I *HATE* Kobe.
Can Curry overtake Lebron and Kobe in all time standings and greatness?
 
Hi mate. You've been misinformed. His TS was not Jordan's level, not that we should randomly remove certain years to help a player's case.

In that case, why not remove Jordan's last 2 crap years with Washington?

Let's do that in fact:

Jordan: 31.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.7 apg on 51%fg
Kobe. : 24.9 ppg, 5.2 rp . 5.2 apg on 44.7%

In finals
Jordan 33.6 ppg, 6 rpg, 6 apg on 48%fg
Kobe. 25 ppg , 5 rpg. , 5 apg. On 40%fg

Not that I have to bring up Jordan. You could bring up lebron, Chris Paul, Durant or Curry
They all have better stats than Kobe and are more efficient.

That "ts%" is the figure cherry picked by Kobe fanboys to help his case because that accounts for free throws which increased after the 2005 reinterpretation of handshaking.


The safest comparison is Lebron James and lebron james does literally everything better

27 ppg, 7 rpg. 7 apg on 50%fg
Vs
24.9 ppg, 5.2 rpg and 4.7 apg on 44.7%fg for Kobe

Even as a 3 point shooter, James is 33.9 while Kobe is 32.9. There's literally nothing comparable.

One is leaps and bounds ahead of the other.


In elimination games, both Jordan and lebron average more than 30 ppg while Kobe is at a measily 21 ppg on 39%fg
in finals, he's at 40%
In finals game 7's he's at 25%
In game 7's overall he's at 41%.

This isn't a knock. He just isn't a top top player.

Like I said, I'm not a Kobe fanboy. I got banned from RealGM back in the day because a mod with 40K+ posts who didn't like the occasional baited questions about Kobe's stardom got fed up and wanted me gone.

I merely TRY to hold relatively objective discussions to prevent any form of bias from creeping in. If TS% is cherry picked, couldn't we say the same about VORP, WS/48, and every other advanced metric? That's what I'm getting at.

Or the fact that Kobe has - I think - 14 All Defensive Teams (despite not having played D since the mid 00s) that pad his resume. Should we really consider that part of his resume? If not, then what about stats accumulated playing as a 1-man team pre-Heat for LeBron?

Etc, etc, etc. :)
 

Sartorius

Hall of Fame
Not a fan of Djokovic but still feels good to have witnessed that.

He looked very tight in the 1st set, later on there was no sign of it - except the last game of course. And again, there was a whole lot of great tennis from him. Some of those gets to Murray's dropshots were incredible.

Murray started off really good, but it's almost as if that 1st set drained him. He wasn't the same after that, namely his serve went away (and that was actually a key shot for him this whole clay season), also his FH sort of reverted back to its old days, not creating much from that side - then again Novak makes that (and everything else) quite difficult.

I think the CGS and holding all 4 slams are both as remakarble as the other. I would still rate Nadal and (obviously) Federer ahead of him at this point, but he's closing the distance fast - and he now has done something of great significance that they didn't.
 
Can Curry overtake Lebron and Kobe in all time standings and greatness?

Overtake Kobe? Sure, I'd argue Curry's peak (this season) is right up there with Jordan, LeBron, Wilt and O'Neal despite his relatively mediocre defense. Simply put, his offensive output and efficiency was unheard of and never seen before. He altered the game in ways no one could have imagined. A few years back, Kyle Korver (from Atlanta Hawks) was someone I viewed as a superstar despite averaging 13ppg, providing little all-around game and playing good but not great defense simply because watching ATL games (I'm a sucker for ball movement and teams that promote it - SAS, ATL, DAL, etc.) on NBA League Pass I noticed teams entire defenses shift to overplay whichever side Korver was on. Curry took that level of focus defenses put on elite shooters and expanded it. Teams now have to guard him (and Klay) 28ft+ out.

TL;DR - If Curry can put up another 3-4 seasons of similar play (think 27+ PPG on insane efficiency), win 2-3 more titles as the #1 guy, AND most importantly continue to increase his marketability (and yes that matters due to perception from casuals) I think he'll eclipse him. Then again, I don't view Kobe as a top-10 guy all-time anyways.

Overtake LeBron? No chance of that ever happening. LeBron's resume is way too good. He could lose the next 4-6 Finals in a row and I'd still have him in my top 5 (and my favorite of all-time, Duncan, is at 6). He's a 1-man franchise - one of maybe 3-4 capable of being that: LeBron, Duncan, Hakeem (in his peak) and O'Neal. And no, Jordan definitely isn't a 1-man franchise considering his playoff record prior to Scottie arriving was 1-9. But don't let the facts get in LeBron haters way. :)

On a side note, I think Karl Anthony-Towns is going to be what people envisioned of Anthony Davis. He's going to battle Tim Duncan for the greatest power forward of all-time when it's said and done. As a TWolves fan I acknowledge bias (I was banned from Canis Hoopus for thinking Kevin Love was overrated) but the guy plays offensively like a souped up Al Horford / Chris Webber hybrid and defensively he'll be as impactful as Tim Duncan.
 

Djokovic2011

Bionic Poster
I just can't believe how many boxes Novak's ticked by winning today. :)

  • Becomes only the eighth player ever to achieve the Career Grand Slam.
  • Becomes the first player since Laver 47 years ago to hold all 4 majors at the same time (and on 3 different surfaces no less).
  • Becomes the first player since Courier 24 years ago to win the first 2 majors of the season.
  • Equals Nadal with a 3rd multi-slam season(and unlike the Spaniard has 2 back to back).
  • Surpasses Borg with his 12th Slam.
  • Surpasses both Borg and Sampras with his 65th title overall.

Seriously, can someone wake me up right now! :p
 
And that achieves what?
You don't want to respond to me on the Williams/Muguruza Final thread, and yet you take the trouble to reply on a different thread.
Err..... OK! And you don't think that's a tad odd? Of course you don't. Because in Levi world that's perfectly normal.

But, it's an interesting concept. I think I'll respond to you on the Serena/Vinci thread where you go from Serena is a Goddess to the Serena is the spawn of the devil.... over the course of ONE match.

You do amuse.
How very interesting. Tell me more.
 

VamosBamos987

Hall of Fame
I just can't believe how many boxes Novak's ticked by winning today. :)

  • Becomes only the eighth player ever to achieve the Career Grand Slam.
  • Becomes the first player since Laver 47 years ago to hold all 4 majors at the same time (and on 3 different surfaces no less).
  • Becomes the first player since Courier 24 years ago to win the first 2 majors of the season.
  • Equals Nadal with a 3rd multi-slam season(and unlike the Spaniard has 2 back to back).
  • Surpasses Borg with his 12th Slam.
  • Surpasses both Borg and Sampras with his 65th title overall.

Seriously, can someone wake me up right now! :p
I will....

You aren't Novak Djokovic and you didn't have any ATP wins
 

TheFifthSet

Legend
What the heck are you talking about?
What does 2008 have to do with anything?

If we're discussing titles won as lead dog, then only MJ, Duncan, Magic and Shaq have won more.

None of Duncan, Magic or Shaq have more mvps than Lebron ofcourse.
We're talking about the player who is:

#2 all time in PER
#1 all time in vorp
#1 all time in playoff ws/48
The single best scorer in elimination game history (3 ppg)
The single best scorer in game 7's history (30.8 ppg)
Most 40 point playoff games since Jordan
3rd all time in playoff assists
4th all time in playoff points (will be 2nd behind Jordan within 12 months)

All at the age of 31.
Don't come at me with team accomplishments either. As in individual player, nobody since Shaq (possible with the exception of Curry ) is even on a patch with lebron.

And certainly not the 24.9 ppg 44%fg career scorer who averages 40% in nba finals and 25% in finals game 7's.


A guy who averaged 15 ppg on 36% most certainly did need Shaq.

2009 Kobe was far removed from 200-2002 Kobe. 7 years later. This shouldn't be confusing to you.

Your idol is a 40% finals scorer and a 25% finals game 7 scorer. That says it all.
He's one of the worst players in nba history in the clutch and has 1 mvp in 20 years of basketball.
He's 23rd all time in PER.
His drpm is 0.1. Yes, you're reading that correctly.

We're comparing individuals. And there's a reason he's not considered a top 10 player by most fans. Espn, sports illustrated, realgm, Insidehoops or even social media.

Fans who do understand basketball know that comparing individuals is just that - Coomparing individuals.
And your hero just isn't that good, unfortunately.


Minor correction: 2nd in playoff ws/48
 

veroniquem

Bionic Poster
I just can't believe how many boxes Novak's ticked by winning today. :)

  • Becomes only the eighth player ever to achieve the Career Grand Slam.
  • Becomes the first player since Laver 47 years ago to hold all 4 majors at the same time (and on 3 different surfaces no less).
  • Becomes the first player since Courier 24 years ago to win the first 2 majors of the season.
  • Equals Nadal with a 3rd multi-slam season(and unlike the Spaniard has 2 back to back).
  • Surpasses Borg with his 12th Slam.
  • Surpasses both Borg and Sampras with his 65th title overall.

Seriously, can someone wake me up right now! :p
He's the only one to do the 4 on 3 surfaces. Greatest achievement in tennis imo!!
 

D.Nalby12

G.O.A.T.
I just realised thus turned out to be another multiple Slam season for Novak - so third of his career. Sounds crazy but a year ago he used to receive heavy criticism for being not so dominant #1 after finishing on top twice winning "just" one Slam event. Critics now are silenced. Even if he goes without winning a title in rest of the season, still this will go down as one best seasons in open era having won 2 Slam events and 3 Masters.
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
I just can't believe how many boxes Novak's ticked by winning today. :)

  • Becomes only the eighth player ever to achieve the Career Grand Slam.
  • Becomes the first player since Laver 47 years ago to hold all 4 majors at the same time (and on 3 different surfaces no less).
  • Becomes the first player since Courier 24 years ago to win the first 2 majors of the season.
  • Equals Nadal with a 3rd multi-slam season(and unlike the Spaniard has 2 back to back).
  • Surpasses Borg with his 12th Slam.
  • Surpasses both Borg and Sampras with his 65th title overall.

Seriously, can someone wake me up right now! :p

Congrats and well done to Novak. It was a long time coming but he got there eventually. I'm sure you're on cloud nine right now and probably will be for several weeks to come! :D
 
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