From 15-40 to 4-0!! Discuss the journey of Djokovic

aditya123

Professional
In defeating Federer from MP down, he absorbed some of the choke instinct himself. It's like when Harry survived Voldemort's attack as a child, but in the process absorbed some of Voldemort's spirit and became a Parselmouth.
Sry I don't know the tale of Voldermort. Does it exist ,if at all then please share a link
 

aditya123

Professional
Thiem was the better player throughout the match honestly, It would have been a bigger choke if Novak won it
I don't disagree with you. Thiem should have finished in two and its his fault that match went to 3rd set. But of all the players, Djoker squandering 4-0 lead in a tb is a big big big surpise. I dint watch 3rd tb to be honest, but how can Djoker lose from that position??? More often than not, he comes back from behind in tb and wins it, so such a clutch player losing from such a favourable position in tb is something that has to be looked into seriously in my opinion.
 

Tennis_Freak99

Hall of Fame
I don't disagree with you. Thiem should have finished in two and its his fault that match went to 3rd set. But of all the players, Djoker squandering 4-0 lead in a tb is a big big big surpise. I dint watch 3rd tb to be honest, but how can Djoker lose from that position??? More often than not, he comes back from behind in tb and wins it, so such a clutch player losing from such a favourable position in tb is something that has to be looked into seriously in my opinion.
He went for percentage play a.k.a pusher play. He wanted Thiem to go for his shots and commit errors. But it was not to be. Thiem zoned in and
took the initiative offered to him. Novak had to be aggressive at 4-0 to have won the match tbh.
 

Tennis_Freak99

Hall of Fame
Right, he had 4 match points already before the tiebreak. It’s almost a miracle that he came back from 0-4 down, but for once the fair thing happened.
There is nothing unfair about the 'better' player losing. If you don't take your chances you don't deserve to win. Choking is the player's fault not the opponent's

Unfair would've been the opponent/umpire using unfair means to win the game, everything went according to the rules yesterday
 

Nadal_Django

Hall of Fame
There is nothing unfair about the 'better' player losing. If you don't take your chances you don't deserve to win. Choking is the player's fault not the opponent's

Unfair would've been the opponent/umpire using unfair means to win the game, everything went according to the rules yesterday
The exact same thing happened in their match at the last year's ATP Finals. Djokovic leading 4-1 in the final TB, Thiem winning it 7-5.
 

falstaff78

Hall of Fame
There is nothing unfair about the 'better' player losing. If you don't take your chances you don't deserve to win. Choking is the player's fault not the opponent's

Unfair would've been the opponent/umpire using unfair means to win the game, everything went according to the rules yesterday
Agreed. Federer was clearly the better player in the Wimbledon final... In fact by dominance ratio he was by far the "most better loser" in the history of the open era

But the fact is Federer lost the most important points in the match, which means Djoker fully and completely and in every way earned the W
 

PeoplesChamp

Hall of Fame
Right, he had 4 match points already before the tiebreak. It’s almost a miracle that he came back from 0-4 down, but for once the fair thing happened.
I had given up on Thiem on that point. Felt bad for him and knew TTW would rip him apart (me included). Thankfully, it was the right outcome in the end (y)
 

Tennis_Freak99

Hall of Fame
The exact same thing happened in their match at the last year's ATP Finals. Djokovic leading 4-1 in the final TB, Thiem winning it 7-5.
Yeah:cry:

Novak's playbook for TBs is based on making absolutely no errors and it works against 99% of players. But the tradeoff is that he isn't aggressive and not willing to take risks in the TBs. This doesn't work against Thiem. He goes for his shots and when they go in, nobody can do anything about it
 

socallefty

Hall of Fame
OP, did you watch the match? Just like last year when Thiem came back from 1-4 in the 3rd set TB against Novak in the ATP finals round-robin stage, Thiem started going for his shots with free abandon at 0-4 in the 3rd set TB today. He won three long baseline rallies in a row where he outhit Novak who was in solid defense mode. Just like Wawrinka, Thiem has the ability to outhit Djokovic from the baseline and he has become consistent enough to do it at key stages in a match.

I expect Thiem to win the USO or AO next year, do well on clay and the hard court Masters tournaments and finish the year at #1. I think he has become better than Novak on clay and hard courts while being better than Nadal on hard courts. Novak might be better only on grass at this point. Thiem is 5-2 against Djokovic in their last seven matches and so, it is not a choke to lose a close match against him - you would expect Thiem to have more confidence based on that late in a match.
 
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Nadal_Django

Hall of Fame
Yeah:cry:

Novak's playbook for TBs is based on making absolutely no errors and it works against 99% of players. But the tradeoff is that he isn't aggressive and not willing to take risks in the TBs. This doesn't work against Thiem. He goes for his shots and when they go in, nobody can do anything about it
It was a high quality match against a well playing opponent. Probably Djokovic's best performance since the Australia swing. It was basically decided by two BH CC shots, one successful bomb from Thiem, and one UE from Djokovic. Yeah, the BH UE was pretty bad from Djokovic, also those two missed first serves on 4-2 and 4-5 didn't help either, but these things happen when you play a tight contested match against a well playing opponent. Onto the next one...
 

3loudboys

Hall of Fame
It wasn't a choke. It was simply Thiem playing better.
Agree here, Novak had saved 3 match points in the second set tie break. Thiem was just to good in the final set breaker. No choke. Chokeless. That term is bandied around far to often when a player loses to someone just better than them on the day. I am not a Djoker fan but recognise what a great player he is and huge credit to Thiem for that comeback. Pretty sure I'd seen how weak Thiem was on these boards several times as well in the past.
 

Wander

Professional
OP, did you watch the match? Just like last year when Thiem came back from 1-4 in the 3rd set TB against Novak in the ATP finals round-robin stage, Thiem started going for his shots with free abandon at 0-4 in the 3rd set TB today.
Actually, I think that Them was hitting with free abandon from the beginning of the tie-break. Remember the wild forehand miss to go 0-4 behind?

It's just that at 0-4 everything started going in.
 

aditya123

Professional
OP, did you watch the match? Just like last year when Thiem came back from 1-4 in the 3rd set TB against Novak in the ATP finals round-robin stage, Thiem started going for his shots with free abandon at 0-4 in the 3rd set TB today. He won three long baseline rallies in a row where he outhit Novak who was in solid defense mode. Just like Wawrinka, Thiem has the ability to outhit Djokovic from the baseline and he has become consistent enough to do it at key stages in a match.

I expect Thiem to win the USO or AO next year, do well on clay and the hard court Masters tournaments and finish the year at #1. I think he has become better than Novak on clay and hard courts while being better than Nadal on hard courts. Novak might be better only on grass at this point. Thiem is 5-2 against Djokovic in their last seven matches and so, it is not a choke to lose a close match against him - you would expect Thiem to have more confidence based on that late in a match.
Did you read my posts??? I said I watched most parts of the match except the third set tb. Did I say Djoker choked???? When I said he squandered it means he dint make use of that 4-0 which is a bit puzzling . Not here to take away any credit from Thiem .
 

RaulRamirez

Hall of Fame
I don't agree with these "should haves". To me, there are no "should haves" in sports unless a rare very bad call determines the outcome, and even then, in most cases it should not have come down to that one call.

Yesterday, going in I thought both matches were 50/50 affairs. Should Thiem have closed the second set? No, he didn't. Did I want Novak to hold the 4-0 lead in the breaker? Yes. Did Novak deserve to? No.

Rinse and repeat for Rafa serving at 6-3, 5-4. Credit Med...no should haves involved.

Now, as I was rooting for both Novak and Rafa, neither was my preferred result, but that's sports - and one of the reasons I watch. Again, kudos to Thiem and Med.
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
I don't agree with these "should haves". To me, there are no "should haves" in sports unless a rare very bad call determines the outcome, and even then, in most cases it should not have come down to that one call.

Yesterday, going in I thought both matches were 50/50 affairs. Should Thiem have closed the second set? No, he didn't. Did I want Novak to hold the 4-0 lead in the breaker? Yes. Did Novak deserve to? No.

Rinse and repeat for Rafa serving at 6-3, 5-4. Credit Med...no should haves involved.

Now, as I was rooting for both Novak and Rafa, neither was my preferred result, but that's sports - and one of the reasons I watch. Again, kudos to Thiem and Med.
Same. I don't believe in should haves. Either you take it your opportunities or you don't, and then the opponent capitalizes. Should haves don't exist in sports imo and I also don't like the fact that because Thiem makes one double fault at a crucial moment, that somewhat equates to him playing poorly on a whole. I thought he played a great match yesterday.
 

RaulRamirez

Hall of Fame
Same. I don't believe in should haves. Either you take it your opportunities or you don't, and then the opponent capitalizes. Should haves don't exist in sports imo and I also don't like the fact that because Thiem makes one double fault at a crucial moment, that somewhat equates to him playing poorly on a whole. I thought he played a great match yesterday.
I thought Thiem played great.
What may have impressed me the most is that Domi (not exactly known as a great in-match strategist) was drawing Novak into the net, and either hitting rockets by him, putting up lobs or hitting the ball with such velocity/spin that Novak (who was not good at the net yesterday) could not put away the volley. Domi is a high-risk player who will commit some errors, although he now seems to play a little smarter. All in all, he played a terrific match!

While not as clutch yet as Stan (in those instances that he's on), I think of him as a more athletic, much faster, and overall better version of Wawrinka.
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
I thought Thiem played great.
What may have impressed me the most is that Domi (not exactly known as a great in-match strategist) was drawing Novak into the net, and either hitting rockets by him, putting up lobs or hitting the ball with such velocity/spin that Novak (who was not good at the net yesterday) could not put away the volley. Domi is a high-risk player who will commit some errors, although he now seems to play a little smarter. All in all, he played a terrific match!

While not as clutch yet as Stan (in those instances that he's on), I think of him as a more athletic, much faster, and overall better version of Wawrinka.
Honestly it was one of the best matches I've seen him play because he was hitting with so much velocity yet not making many errors and you are right in how smart he played. Also, his defense and movement was incredible. That is definitely something that has improved drastically in his game and why he is going to be a force it seems in these big tournaments. I did think Djokovic had a terrible day at net, something like 50%, and should have put a lot of those volleys away but credit to Thiem for making him play one more shot.

I think he's better than Wawrinka also and more versatile. I've actually always have believed in this guy's talent when he was being raked across the coals on this site so I can't say I'm surprised he's reached this level.
 

travlerajm

G.O.A.T.
Certain types of players play their best tennis when their opponent starts playing safer. It relaxes them and gives them more confidence. Thiem is one of those players, where going into pusher/safe mode against him is going to backfire more often than not. In the clutch, the way to beat Thiem is to take the initiative and come to net against his backhand.
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
Nole has won this event 5 times, and had a 15-1 record in a tie-breaker. For him to lose when he was up 4-0, that is a CHOKER.
 
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