From Adult Beginner to 4.0 - possible?

FiguringItOut

FiguringItOut

Rookie
Started with hitting against a wall in my mid-20's. Taught myself as much as I could from TENNIS magazine subscription and listening to technical commentators like John McEnroe, Martina Navratilova, and Mary Joe Fernandez. Started using YouTube channels about 2 years ago.

Never had highschool or college experience. In the past 4 weeks, have had the opportunity to play a 2.5, 3.0, 3.5, and 4.5/5.0 player. Seems like I'm stating the obvious, but it dawned on me what a very different game tennis is at each of those levels. I was able to match strokes with the upper two levels but not win any games.

Watching the 2.5 and 3.0 across the net from me, their strokes looked home-made and will really limit their development unless they start from scratch and are willing to lose matches while they implement their new strokes. Watching the 3.5 and 4.5/5.0, players - strokes were technically sound and had all the pace, depth, and spin you'd expect - and I couldn't keep up during match play.

SO THE QUESTION IS: Does a late-beginner like me have a shot at getting competitive at, let's say, a ceiling of 4.0? You 4.0s and higher: did you ever suck, LOL? Or did a natural gifting just emerge and you found yourself sort of starting at 3.5 and going from there? Because I THINK I can get to 3.5 by the end of the year - but advanced 3.5 - 5.0 just feels so completely out of reach, short of attending a Tennis Academy, I can't imagine getting there.

Thoughts? Experiences? How did you upper-rated guys and gals get there?
Thanks for all input!
 
I have seen many adult beginners make it to 4.5 relatively quickly. Generally they peak at low to mid-4.5. They all had significant experience in other sports first; surprisingly, the ones that I know tended to be college soccer players. But I’ve heard of baseball and basketball players advancing quickly too.

Speaking of the soccer players, their strokes generally were mediocre but their footwork and patience stood out.
 
Yeah, totally possible. We’ve had some crazy “Can I become X” threads on here but that‘s a totally reasonable goal.

What other sports have you played in your life, and to what level? How old are you now? I would offer that your biggest limiting factor is general athleticism/coordination - if you've got that (or a history of that) then it’s very doable feat.
 
if you have reasonable self-awareness and observation skills, self-teaching is very possible to that level.

I'd say noticing the differences between those levels is a good place to be. some players will play people better than them and have no idea what specifically makes them better. if you know what needs to be improved, you can practice it, and if you can practice it, you can improve, and that's really all there is to it.

it also takes a lot of brave practice, IME. you don't have a coach being paid to nicely drill you for certain shots, and you don't want to be a dick in warmups. so short of finding someone who wants to trade drills/feeding with you, matches are your only place to practice. common advice is to get the ball in and don't defeat yourself, which is a great mindset to master. but to some extent, you have to try for shots out of your reach, or else you'll never get a feel for them and never practice them. for example, when I first started, topspin forehand was a mystery to me. I sliced everything on my forehand side and got quite good at it. But eventually I forced myself to play topspin on every shot in order to learn it. It was terrible at first, but eventually I got the hang of it. It was the same thing learning dropshots. All of them were terrible and cost me tons of games at first. But now it's a shot I really like to go for and can depend on reasonably. Same thing for learning to play with heavier topspin vs flatter topspin, increasing the pace of your shots, etc. You have to try it to learn it.

Other times you have to vary how you learn. Sometimes just watching different explanations or models of the same thing helps. For example, watching Taylor Townsend beat Simona Halep at USO 2019 is when I learned how to do a slice serve. I've watched dozens of tennis pros and tutorials do a slice serve with no results. But for some reason, Townsend's motion made it very plain and observable to me, and I started hitting them that day.
 
schmke said:
In the past 10 years, I show that there have been over 19K players that were a computer rated 3.0 or lower, and reached being a 4.0 or higher. I have no idea how many of these picked up the game late in life, but two levels of improvement are certainly possible.
Click to expand...

How many of those were doubles players?
4.0 doubles has nothing to do with real tennis.
 
FiguringItOut said:
Started with hitting against a wall in my mid-20's. Taught myself as much as I could from TENNIS magazine subscription and listening to technical commentators like John McEnroe, Martina Navratilova, and Mary Joe Fernandez. Started using YouTube channels about 2 years ago.

Never had highschool or college experience. In the past 4 weeks, have had the opportunity to play a 2.5, 3.0, 3.5, and 4.5/5.0 player. Seems like I'm stating the obvious, but it dawned on me what a very different game tennis is at each of those levels. I was able to match strokes with the upper two levels but not win any games.

Watching the 2.5 and 3.0 across the net from me, their strokes looked home-made and will really limit their development unless they start from scratch and are willing to lose matches while they implement their new strokes. Watching the 3.5 and 4.5/5.0, players - strokes were technically sound and had all the pace, depth, and spin you'd expect - and I couldn't keep up during match play.

SO THE QUESTION IS: Does a late-beginner like me have a shot at getting competitive at, let's say, a ceiling of 4.0? You 4.0s and higher: did you ever suck, LOL? Or did a natural gifting just emerge and you found yourself sort of starting at 3.5 and going from there? Because I THINK I can get to 3.5 by the end of the year - but advanced 3.5 - 5.0 just feels so completely out of reach, short of attending a Tennis Academy, I can't imagine getting there.

Thoughts? Experiences? How did you upper-rated guys and gals get there?
Thanks for all input!
Click to expand...

There are many ways up the mountain: the most common is probably the athletic, minimal injury, driven person with discipline and motivation.

My suggestion is not to pay much attention to #s like NTRP and UTR but instead, focus on the process:
- Get a good coach and explain what your goals are and show that you're willing to commit to do the work: students with great ideas are a dime a dozen. The one who practices what he learns is more rare.
- What are my strengths and weaknesses?
- How much time/effort do I want to spend on further developing my strengths vs shoring up my weaknesses?
- How can I structure my game to use more of my strengths and hide my weaknesses?
- Do I have any unusual strengths to exploit [ie lefty, big serve, can run all day, super patient, etc]?
- What do players at the next level up do fundamentally different than I? How can I go about acquiring those skills?
- Don't ignore the "non-tennis" things like the 3Fs [footwork, fitness, focus <mental toughness>, and spacing]; don't just think about how many RPMs your FH generates or MPH your serve goes
- Use video so you can see what you're actually doing vs what you perceive you're doing; you might be surprised

And don't think in terms of ceilings or timetables. You may have potential beyond whatever artificial ceiling you perceive [only because it's apparently so far away it appears unreachable]. Again, think process. Otherwise, you're just putting needless pressure on yourself [unless you're the type who thrives under those conditions].

One thing: 3.5s do not have technically-sound strokes. If you watch and play long enough, you will start to see the flaws. OTOH, I haven't run into many 5.0s with flawed strokes [at least, I'm not good enough to pressure them enough to reveal their flaws]. But at 4.5? We're all flawed; I'm exhibit A: too many errors, too flat on the FH, too loopy on the BH, too impatient during rallies, poor shot selection, etc.
 
puppybutts said:
it also takes a lot of brave practice, IME. you don't have a coach being paid to nicely drill you for certain shots, and you don't want to be a dick in warmups. so short of finding someone who wants to trade drills/feeding with you, matches are your only place to practice.
Click to expand...

I was just going to write something that S&V had just said--I saw you said up to this point you're self-taught but I didn't see anything saying you didn't want/couldn't afford/whatever coaching. So if you do go for coaching (which isn't a bad idea necessarily), so what S&V said above; make sure the coach knows you're not the typical adult tennis player. I've seen a lot of lessons/clinics that have more been 'for fun'. My USTA team might get together 'for practice' but it would just be playing sets. We did get a coach in a clinic type format for a while, and it wasn't terrible but we probably spent more than half the time playing out sets (maybe practicing something during those points, so trying to improve something there, like poaching) and less than half the time drilling (and a lot of that was more-or-less point play but at least structured a bit to practice approach shots/volleys at the net, for instance). It was fun and I enjoyed it, and there were things I took away from those sessions, but they could have been a lot better for my improvement. I think that comes from coaches wanting their adult players coming back, and if it's 'fun' then they'll be more likely to come back, regardless if there is significant improvement.

What I'd want if I were looking for a coach for improvement is someone who would work on a particular shot for at least 10-15 minutes and keep drilling and working on that shot. I've had some lessons (with my primary coach) that have been an hour or an hour and an half where we worked on 2 or 3 things. Perhaps that's 20 minutes on a kick serve and then 20-30 minutes on my backhand. That could also be hand-fed from close, hand-fed or lightly fed (from a racquet) from further away or in a rally--with the coach having a basket next to him to grab quickly when I inevitably miss the shots...

and I can say (though I'm not 4.5) a lot of the things that S&V said "We're all flawed; I'm exhibit A: too many errors, too flat on the FH, too loopy on the BH, too impatient during rallies, poor shot selection, etc.". For me, reverse the issues with the BH and FH, but yeah. Some of the 'improvements' moving up are just a matter of magnitude--FH might be on average a bit faster and have more topspin--while others might be drastic--thinking of serving here, how many 3.0s are out there with a frying pan grip and dinking in their second serves? One doesn't see that at 4.0.
 
Definitely possible to get to 4.0. Just follow this 5-step plan:

1. Wall Volley Rally. use the wall to get better at keeping a volley rally going with yourself, standing at different distances from the wall.
practicing a volley rally on the wall is kind of like juggling. At first you’ll only be able to keep it going for a few balls. But with practice, you’ll eventually cross a threshold where you have enough control that can keep the volley rally going indefinitely until you tire of it.

2. Implement your volley stroke in competition. once you have your volley skills down, try to implement this into your competitive play. The net is where you can hit your winners (not from the baseline). And you can use your volley / block motion on return of serve to start the point. That’s would I do on every point, and it works fine. You can also use the slice /block /volley / stab motion on any shot where you are out of position and can’t set your feet. Or on high balls above your stroke zone.

3. Teach yourself the safe 100% secure rally ball. On your topspin groundies, instead of focusing on your form or technique (tough to change muscle memory as an adult), focus on being smarter on how to use your shot. Most 3.0 players aim hard and low over the net, taking unnecessary risk with minimal chance of reward. Your “base” forehand topspin groundstroke should be aimed about 12 feet over the net, with a relaxed stroke that uses gravity to bring it down landing 10 feet inside the baseline. This takes away the risk. Practice this high trajectory relaxed stroke against the wall, until you can keep the rally going indefinitely (again just like learning to juggle).

4. Patience and how to get to net the smart way. once you have your safe reliable rally ball down, now you can wait for the short ball, then take the net. Your approach shot doesn’t need to be the low % forehand blast like the pros use. You can simply charge in behind your safe high rally ball any time you see that it will land deep near the baseline. Your opponent either needs to take it on the rise or back up, giving you the edge. Also remember to practice your overhead every time out, so you look forward to getting lobbed as an opportunity to deliver a hammer blow.

5. Practice your serve to add explosiveness, with focus on what ball does. Get out the bucket of balls, and each time out test out tweaks to see the effect on the ball. Did the ball bounce higher in the fence? Adjust your contact point higher. Lean your front hip out into the court. Use a stronger spin grip. Test these types of things out one at a time. Use the spin for margin and go for racquet speed. Filming yourself helps here, as long as you watch it real-time. The serve is unique in that it’s the one shot in tennis where power and explosiveness is more important than accuracy, as long as you can get it in the box. It’s realistic for you to build your serve into a reliable weapon to take you to 4.0. The forehand is not like that for a player in your situation.
 
I started at 20 YO and played 1 doubles and 2 singles on 4.5 that made Georgia State finals. It is very possible for an adult beginner to make 4.0. Playing 4.5 is a little tougher but possible if you are fairly young when you start.

Play leagues, tournaments, take lessons, go to adult clinics, workout for strength, flexibility and endurance, watch YouTube (it helps if you can cut through the ******** because there's a fair amount of ******** on YT), and play lots of tennis and you should be able to play 4.0.
 
I think it's definitely feasible. 4.0s really aren't quality match players. If you have good fitness and can poke a lot of balls back, and develop a reliable slice serve, you'll not just make 4.0 but you'll dominate there
 
Yes it can happen. But!!!! It must be a 2nd job in order for this to happen! You don’t wake up one day and be 4.0 or Federer/nadal or iokovic. Aside from your full time job this has to be 2nd job 100% commitment! No other way.
 
FiguringItOut said:
...THE QUESTION IS: Does a late-beginner like me have a shot at getting competitive at, let's say, a ceiling of 4.0? You 4.0s and higher: did you ever suck, LOL? Or did a natural gifting just emerge and you found yourself sort of starting at 3.5 and going from there? Because I THINK I can get to 3.5 by the end of the year - but advanced 3.5 - 5.0 just feels so completely out of reach, short of attending a Tennis Academy, I can't imagine getting there.
Click to expand...

General athleticism and fitness will bump you .5 NTRP right out of the gate. SO if you lack there start doing the footwork and conditioning to move and stay in points. And other have mentioned, even up through 4.0 perfectly technical strokes are NOT required, but learning to be consistent and running good strategy/patterns will get you there. That is different between dubs and singles, so make sure you learn both.

And the best advice is, enjoy yourself, focus on competing the best you can and continuing to try and improve, and just let the ratings end up where they may. doing the the former will fix the latter.
 
Last edited:
First, forget about ratings, and embrace the long term process and lifestyle of being a developing tennis player.

What is your short term motivation?
Do you want to win or do you want Federer looking strokes?

Singles 4.0 is a totally different universe than doubles 4.0
Doubles is not real tennis

Do not play leagues. You have no strokes yet. Total waste of time.
Do not play leagues until 2-3 years of serious training.

Personal trainer and muscles will have zero correlation to 4.0 tennis skills.

You will never become a 4.0 in 5 months.
That's because 4.0 is about playing smart, and has little to do with strokes.
4.0 requires match experience, but you need strokes before you play matches (unless you want to be 3.0 or 3.5 for life)

The people who most proudly yell they never took lessons
are 3.5 hackers and 4.0 junkers who wouldn't know correct tennis if it fell on their heads.
I respect 4.0 junkers. Takes 10-20 years to get there.

Tennis is hard. Very hard.
Do you have money to spare?
Take as many lessons as you can afford.
But, only take lessons from ex-college, or ex-ITF/ATP.
Take as many lessons compressed into the smallest time frame as possible.
For example, 2 lessons a day for several months.

Enjoy the journey you have begun. It is a wonderful trip.

DM me if you want to see video of what is possible in one year of regular adult training (6x a week)

Good call on avoiding doubles. It is not real tennis.
At 50, you have another 15-20 years where you can still compete even as a 4.0 singles

At 3.5, you will see everything.
Dinkers with no form all the way to 3.5 guys who crush the ball harder than college players.
Yes, I've played with both college players and with 3.5 players

The best advice for you is not to try to win.
Play high level tennis and ignore short term results.
Your true goal is to reach 4.0, not to win at 3.5
Do not develop a game style that only works at 3.5
That is missing the true purpose of the journey, which is to reach your max potential

Most people never make it past 3.0 and 3.5
They are lifers who are stuck for a variety of reasons, mostly mental.

Some make it to 4.0 after a 7-15 years of playing daily, and are often pushers/junkers.
The other extreme are those who take many lessons, drill, emulate junior training, are not stupid, and make it to 4.0 in 2 years.
They are very rare.

The vast majority of players never get past 3.5
3.0 & 3.5 represents most all of the tennis addicted junkies who play 4x a week.

Very few ever make it to 4.0, since you need to destroy 3.5 matches like 6-0 6-1 to get bumped up.
Nearly impossible in doubles, if you have a true 3.5 partner, which is most of USTA leagues

Almost no one takes lessons and even fewer ever translate lesson strokes into matches.
People who get bumped from 3.5 singles to 4.0 singles are unicorns that are rare
 
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Stratotanker said:
Yeah, totally possible. We’ve had some crazy “Can I become X” threads on here but that‘s a totally reasonable goal.

What other sports have you played in your life, and to what level? How old are you now? I would offer that your biggest limiting factor is general athleticism/coordination - if you've got that (or a history of that) then it’s very doable feat.
Click to expand...
Black Belt, Tae Kwon Do - but that's not about agile footwork, but very strong planted feet in stances and for balance. And honestly, that's been part of my problem - I anticipate the trajectory of the ball, plant and get ready to swing - and the microadjustments I need to make don't get made. Definitely a problem. I've heard the hand/foot-eye coordination bit before and lots of people are saying to do footwork drills, so - noted. Peace - and thank you!
 
puppybutts said:
if you have reasonable self-awareness and observation skills, self-teaching is very possible to that level.

I'd say noticing the differences between those levels is a good place to be. some players will play people better than them and have no idea what specifically makes them better. if you know what needs to be improved, you can practice it, and if you can practice it, you can improve, and that's really all there is to it.

it also takes a lot of brave practice, IME. you don't have a coach being paid to nicely drill you for certain shots, and you don't want to be a dick in warmups. so short of finding someone who wants to trade drills/feeding with you, matches are your only place to practice. common advice is to get the ball in and don't defeat yourself, which is a great mindset to master. but to some extent, you have to try for shots out of your reach, or else you'll never get a feel for them and never practice them. for example, when I first started, topspin forehand was a mystery to me. I sliced everything on my forehand side and got quite good at it. But eventually I forced myself to play topspin on every shot in order to learn it. It was terrible at first, but eventually I got the hang of it. It was the same thing learning dropshots. All of them were terrible and cost me tons of games at first. But now it's a shot I really like to go for and can depend on reasonably. Same thing for learning to play with heavier topspin vs flatter topspin, increasing the pace of your shots, etc. You have to try it to learn it.

Other times you have to vary how you learn. Sometimes just watching different explanations or models of the same thing helps. For example, watching Taylor Townsend beat Simona Halep at USO 2019 is when I learned how to do a slice serve. I've watched dozens of tennis pros and tutorials do a slice serve with no results. But for some reason, Townsend's motion made it very plain and observable to me, and I started hitting them that day.
Click to expand...
I very much appreciate this post. My approach to-date has been what you wrote. I've definitely gotten better being brave by actually PRACTICING and being willing to lose during a match to implement. Noted, too, on learning approach variety. My referencing "4.0" was not so much about a magic # that validates me, but a number that is symbolic of a future horizon as I desire to keep improving. But after playing the 4.5/5.0 I feel like I slammed into wall that said, "Maybe you just don't have the natural gifts to get here, dude". So I was trying to figure out if - if I continue being a hard-worker and a smart learner/practicer - I can actually improve to that level. The responses here seem to indicate it's within reach. Thanks!
 
There are very few rec tennis players who played a lot as kids and if they were good, they are probably playing 4.5+ tennis as adults. So, the vast majority of 4.0 players started as adults and reached that level. I think it is very reachable for most adults who played other sports as kids up to a high school level and maybe a bit difficult only for those who didn’t play any outdoor sports. If the adult beginner finds a good coach and takes some lessons to learn the basics of serves and ground strokes within the first couple of years of starting to play, it is probably going to be a quick journey to 4.0.
 
S&V-not_dead_yet said:
There are many ways up the mountain: the most common is probably the athletic, minimal injury, driven person with discipline and motivation.

My suggestion is not to pay much attention to #s like NTRP and UTR but instead, focus on the process:
- Get a good coach and explain what your goals are and show that you're willing to commit to do the work: students with great ideas are a dime a dozen. The one who practices what he learns is more rare.
- What are my strengths and weaknesses?
- How much time/effort do I want to spend on further developing my strengths vs shoring up my weaknesses?
- How can I structure my game to use more of my strengths and hide my weaknesses?
- Do I have any unusual strengths to exploit [ie lefty, big serve, can run all day, super patient, etc]?
- What do players at the next level up do fundamentally different than I? How can I go about acquiring those skills?
- Don't ignore the "non-tennis" things like the 3Fs [footwork, fitness, focus <mental toughness>, and spacing]; don't just think about how many RPMs your FH generates or MPH your serve goes
- Use video so you can see what you're actually doing vs what you perceive you're doing; you might be surprised

And don't think in terms of ceilings or timetables. You may have potential beyond whatever artificial ceiling you perceive [only because it's apparently so far away it appears unreachable]. Again, think process. Otherwise, you're just putting needless pressure on yourself [unless you're the type who thrives under those conditions].

One thing: 3.5s do not have technically-sound strokes. If you watch and play long enough, you will start to see the flaws. OTOH, I haven't run into many 5.0s with flawed strokes [at least, I'm not good enough to pressure them enough to reveal their flaws]. But at 4.5? We're all flawed; I'm exhibit A: too many errors, too flat on the FH, too loopy on the BH, too impatient during rallies, poor shot selection, etc.
Click to expand...
Thank you - please read what I replied to puppybutts. I hear you loud and clear - I appreciate, too, the advice about being pretty assertive about saying what I want to a Coach/Instructor. The guy I've been using sometimes will let me hit 10 balls that aren't working and I'm like, "Dude, tell me how to FIX this!! I don't want to keep 'grooving' something that isn't working".
 
ChaelAZ said:
General athleticism and fitness will bump you .5 NTRP right out of the gate. SO if you lack there start doing the footwork and conditioning to move and stay in points. And other have mentioned, even up through 4.0 perfectly technical strokes are NOT required, but learning to be consistent and running good strategy/patterns will get you there. That is different between dubs and singles, so make sure you learn both.

And the best advice is, enjoy yourself, focus on competing the best you can and continuing to try and improve, and just let the ratings end up where they may. doing the the former will fix the latter.
Click to expand...
Hear you loud and clear. The NTRP 4.0 was more symbolic of a horizon on my journey than a preoccupation or destiny. Thanks!
 
DCNJ said:
I was just going to write something that S&V had just said--I saw you said up to this point you're self-taught but I didn't see anything saying you didn't want/couldn't afford/whatever coaching. So if you do go for coaching (which isn't a bad idea necessarily), so what S&V said above; make sure the coach knows you're not the typical adult tennis player. I've seen a lot of lessons/clinics that have more been 'for fun'. My USTA team might get together 'for practice' but it would just be playing sets. We did get a coach in a clinic type format for a while, and it wasn't terrible but we probably spent more than half the time playing out sets (maybe practicing something during those points, so trying to improve something there, like poaching) and less than half the time drilling (and a lot of that was more-or-less point play but at least structured a bit to practice approach shots/volleys at the net, for instance). It was fun and I enjoyed it, and there were things I took away from those sessions, but they could have been a lot better for my improvement. I think that comes from coaches wanting their adult players coming back, and if it's 'fun' then they'll be more likely to come back, regardless if there is significant improvement.

What I'd want if I were looking for a coach for improvement is someone who would work on a particular shot for at least 10-15 minutes and keep drilling and working on that shot. I've had some lessons (with my primary coach) that have been an hour or an hour and an half where we worked on 2 or 3 things. Perhaps that's 20 minutes on a kick serve and then 20-30 minutes on my backhand. That could also be hand-fed from close, hand-fed or lightly fed (from a racquet) from further away or in a rally--with the coach having a basket next to him to grab quickly when I inevitably miss the shots...

and I can say (though I'm not 4.5) a lot of the things that S&V said "We're all flawed; I'm exhibit A: too many errors, too flat on the FH, too loopy on the BH, too impatient during rallies, poor shot selection, etc.". For me, reverse the issues with the BH and FH, but yeah. Some of the 'improvements' moving up are just a matter of magnitude--FH might be on average a bit faster and have more topspin--while others might be drastic--thinking of serving here, how many 3.0s are out there with a frying pan grip and dinking in their second serves? One doesn't see that at 4.0.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the advice on being assertive with whomever I hire to oversee my development. Read and understood on else you wrote. Thanks!
 
FiguringItOut said:
But after playing the 4.5/5.0 I feel like I slammed into wall that said, "Maybe you just don't have the natural gifts to get here, dude".
Click to expand...

4.5 is ex-college. These people have devoted their entire childhoods and adult lives to tennis. Do not compare.
There is nothing natural about tennis. Absolutely nothing. It all must be trained, right down to how you hold the racket and how you walk.
Your goal is to attain the tennis capabilities of your body at your give age. It takes 5 years to learn tennis on any meaningful level.
 
Lots of talk about playing other sports as some basic for predicting tennis. That is nonsense.
You can get to 4.0 having never played any other sport in your life.
What determines 4.0 is ability to learn, basic fitness and coordination aptitude level, and obsessiveness towards getting better.
Time and money. Playing 5x a week. Lessons will speed up the process by a factor of 5-10x.

There are plenty of obsessed lifer 3.0 and 3.5, so there is a big mental piece and ignorance to understand how to improve.
Mindlessly playing more is not the answer. It just makes you more of what you already are.

Read the book Talent Code. Tennis is not about tennis. It's about how to train and learn a skill.

Most people are not mentally equipped to become advanced tennis players

In a given point, someone may do three or four things perfectly right, yet still lose the point. Good serve, good baseline rally, good approach shot, but a missed volley. Lose entire point. Losing points leads to losing matches. Lose = bad. Win = good. The mentally weak person...
tt.tennis-warehouse.com tt.tennis-warehouse.com

too much USTA is toxic for tennis development.

I saw another example of players hitting out of their minds for a practice match. When it counts, when they get nervous, they must revert to bunty ping pong or something, and must have Jekyl/Hyde versions of their game. Just confirms that too much USTA is toxic for tennis development. Too...
tt.tennis-warehouse.com tt.tennis-warehouse.com
 
DCNJ said:
we probably spent more than half the time playing out sets
vs.
work on a particular shot for at least 10-15 minutes and keep drilling and working on that shot. I've had some lessons (with my primary coach) that have been an hour or an hour and an half where we worked on 2 or 3 things.
Click to expand...

Great distinction of drilling vs. clinics.
100% of clinics are a waste of time and money.
 
FiddlerDog said:
4.5 is ex-college. These people have devoted their entire childhoods and adult lives to tennis. Do not compare.
There is nothing natural about tennis. Absolutely nothing. It all must be trained, right down to how you hold the racket and how you walk.
Your goal is to attain the tennis capabilities of your body at your give age. It takes 5 years to learn tennis on any meaningful level.
Click to expand...
Nope. Don't project your inadequacies on the general pop.
 
Best advice I can give if you want to make it to 4.0 is to not play competitive tennis (USTA) until you have developed a proper advanced serve, which could take 6 months to 2 years depending on if you are self taught or taking private lessons, and how fast a learner you are. The reason is that if you start playing USTA league, there is too great a temptation to use a waiter's tray beginners serve just to get the point started, and then it's very hard to break out of that bad muscle memory. With a waiter's tray serve, it's very hard to get above 3.0.

Once you have a good advanced serve, you should be able to move quickly from 2.5 to 4.0 if you play rated USTA matches in 1-2 years of play. Then, if you can develop a strong forehand, consistent groundstrokes overall, and some strategy (how to "beat" specific styles of play), you can get to 4.5.

Definitely achievable for you in my opinion. Good luck!
 
FiddlerDog said:
First, forget about ratings, and embrace the long term process and lifestyle of being a developing tennis player.

What is your short term motivation?
Do you want to win or do you want Federer looking strokes?

Singles 4.0 is a totally different universe than doubles 4.0
Doubles is not real tennis

Do not play leagues. You have no strokes yet. Total waste of time.
Do not play leagues until 2-3 years of serious training.

Personal trainer and muscles will have zero correlation to 4.0 tennis skills.

You will never become a 4.0 in 5 months.
That's because 4.0 is about playing smart, and has little to do with strokes.
4.0 requires match experience, but you need strokes before you play matches (unless you want to be 3.0 or 3.5 for life)

The people who most proudly yell they never took lessons
are 3.5 hackers and 4.0 junkers who wouldn't know correct tennis if it fell on their heads.
I respect 4.0 junkers. Takes 10-20 years to get there.

Tennis is hard. Very hard.
Do you have money to spare?
Take as many lessons as you can afford.
But, only take lessons from ex-college, or ex-ITF/ATP.
Take as many lessons compressed into the smallest time frame as possible.
For example, 2 lessons a day for several months.

Enjoy the journey you have begun. It is a wonderful trip.

DM me if you want to see video of what is possible in one year of regular adult training (6x a week)

Good call on avoiding doubles. It is not real tennis.
At 50, you have another 15-20 years where you can still compete even as a 4.0 singles

At 3.5, you will see everything.
Dinkers with no form all the way to 3.5 guys who crush the ball harder than college players.
Yes, I've played with both college players and with 3.5 players

The best advice for you is not to try to win.
Play high level tennis and ignore short term results.
Your true goal is to reach 4.0, not to win at 3.5
Do not develop a game style that only works at 3.5
That is missing the true purpose of the journey, which is to reach your max potential

Most people never make it past 3.0 and 3.5
They are lifers who are stuck for a variety of reasons, mostly mental.

Some make it to 4.0 after a 7-15 years of playing daily, and are often pushers/junkers.
The other extreme are those who take many lessons, drill, emulate junior training, are not stupid, and make it to 4.0 in 2 years.
They are very rare.

The vast majority of players never get past 3.5
3.0 & 3.5 represents most all of the tennis addicted junkies who play 4x a week.

Very few ever make it to 4.0, since you need to destroy 3.5 matches like 6-0 6-1 to get bumped up.
Nearly impossible in doubles, if you have a true 3.5 partner, which is most of USTA leagues

Almost no one takes lessons and even fewer ever translate lesson strokes into matches.
People who get bumped from 3.5 singles to 4.0 singles are unicorns that are rare
Click to expand...

Fiddlerdog -

You've replied to two of my posts now and both times I've appreciated your no-nonsense answers and investment in replying.
It seems from your posts that you're a bit of a pragmatic purist and that resonates with me.
What may irritate you is that I want to get better, win on occasion, and look like Federer when I can all at the same time ;-)

My PRIMARY desire IS to simply get better - I found this recently on a blog by Steve Clark, Tennis Coach, PhD:

Inside out Coaching (see in resources). The heart of competition, com petere is a mutual quest or striving for excellence (p 213). Competitors can be after the same goal—excellence—but they cannot find it alone.

…competition should be fun. It is the battle ground where you feel like the other person brings the best out in you. http://coachsteveclarkphd.com/2018/01/28/digging-deeper-the-joy-of-competing/

++++++

What has frustrated me is that, at the 3.0 level, "bringing out my best" has NOT happened. I've played 3.5 before (starting there again this Summer) and though I lost, I LOVED the tennis both me and my opponent played at that level - I can laugh with joy at being outclassed when I lose at that level. At 3.0, whatever comprises that level of play, I just don't like it, it's not fun, and I don't enjoy myself. So I'm going to play up. When I was playing up, I was very close to being bumped to 3.5 at year's end. I've been at 3.0 now for a year, and my rating has gone from a 2.9 something to 2.6.

Anyway, I'd love to see the video you mentioned - peace!
 
I think the answer is also the complete definition of "adult"

Adult as in 18-29 years old first picking up a racket? Probably can get to 4.5 with proper training, conditioning and determination. I know of a handful who have made it ... all had high level (think D1 or minor league pro) experience in other sports.

One who went from 3.0 in 2018 ... just picked up a racket. Got bumped to 4.5 at end of 2021.
Zero "proper" strokes. But insane athleticism, conditioning and determination. He is in fact more like late 30s/early 40s

Adult as in Over 40 years old first picking up a racket? Assuming normal rate of injury for that age group, likely stuck capping out at 3.5 ... perhaps touching 4.0 then dropping back and forth between 3.5 and 4.0 in larger metro areas. Outliers can reach and maintain 4.0.

Adult as in 50+ just picking up a racket? hmmmm I think really doubtful unless really athletically gifted with high level performance coming from another sport. And someone who has avoided all injuries chronic or otherwise.

I also don't think one can discount basic athletic capabilities. Some folks just will never be anything but a 3.0 player. They don't have "it" whatever it is.
 
FiguringItOut said:
My PRIMARY desire IS to simply get better -
a mutual quest or striving for excellence (p 213).
Anyway, I'd love to see the video you mentioned - peace!
Click to expand...

  1. Always play up. Your goal is to lose as much as possible.
  2. Focus on the long term process. Trust the process.
  3. It's a journey you will never arrive at. For 2-5 years, it's a lifestyle, not an end goal.
  4. Don't try to win, execute the correct plays. Outcome means ****. Your ENTIRE goal is to build correct habits.
  5. You can progress further in 1 year than most do in a lifetime.
  6. Injuries will be your downfall, listen to your body.

I will PM you a 1 year video.
 
FiguringItOut said:
Started with hitting against a wall in my mid-20's. Taught myself as much as I could from TENNIS magazine subscription and listening to technical commentators like John McEnroe, Martina Navratilova, and Mary Joe Fernandez. Started using YouTube channels about 2 years ago.

Never had highschool or college experience. In the past 4 weeks, have had the opportunity to play a 2.5, 3.0, 3.5, and 4.5/5.0 player. Seems like I'm stating the obvious, but it dawned on me what a very different game tennis is at each of those levels. I was able to match strokes with the upper two levels but not win any games.

Watching the 2.5 and 3.0 across the net from me, their strokes looked home-made and will really limit their development unless they start from scratch and are willing to lose matches while they implement their new strokes. Watching the 3.5 and 4.5/5.0, players - strokes were technically sound and had all the pace, depth, and spin you'd expect - and I couldn't keep up during match play.

SO THE QUESTION IS: Does a late-beginner like me have a shot at getting competitive at, let's say, a ceiling of 4.0? You 4.0s and higher: did you ever suck, LOL? Or did a natural gifting just emerge and you found yourself sort of starting at 3.5 and going from there? Because I THINK I can get to 3.5 by the end of the year - but advanced 3.5 - 5.0 just feels so completely out of reach, short of attending a Tennis Academy, I can't imagine getting there.

Thoughts? Experiences? How did you upper-rated guys and gals get there?
Thanks for all input!
Click to expand...
Yes, it can very easily be done. Meet and play with people who are better than you. Go to drills, play on combo and tri level teams. If you’re 3.0, meet some of the local 3.5s and see if they want to hit or play pick up doubles…work your way onto a combo team or even play up on their level…playing better people you will see a difference in your game.

I went from 2.5 to 4.0…when I became a 3.5 I worked with a teaching pro to get better and did drills. As a 4.0 I still do this…work with a pro, go to drills and work on my weaknesses on my own.

Footwork and movement is huge in getting better. The higher level players have two things in common: they have solid strokes and they move very well
 
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My opinion -

4.0 singles players will have a strength in fitness, the serve, ground-strokes or overall strategy and usually a weakness in one of those areas as well. They will use that strength to beat 3.5 players and lose to 4.5 players who have an edge in at least 2 of those categories.

4.0 doubles players make fewer unforced errors than 3.5 doubles and have a better sense of positioning by implementing *some* elements of higher level doubles.

If you're in your 20s with a sport background you probably make it to 4.0 in 1-3 years of playing 2-3 times per week with purpose and treating your body well. Continue that and you might play 4.5 in 3-5 years.
 
It's only possible with a coach and tons of practice. The cool thing is it's up to you. Find a coach that teaches technique and footwork. If they just feed you balls and say watch the ball, turn your shoulder, blah... they aren't worth the $50. Pay $80 and get someone good then reinforce with ball machine. Watch how the coach teaches a 2 handed backhand. If they don't tell you to use your left on the follow through then move on. If they use camera in lesson then likely a good pro. Lots of not so good pros out there happy to take your money for as long as you want.
 
mikelikesgatorad said:
My opinion -

4.0 singles players will have a strength in fitness, the serve, ground-strokes or overall strategy and usually a weakness in one of those areas as well. They will use that strength to beat 3.5 players and lose to 4.5 players who have an edge in at least 2 of those categories.

4.0 doubles players make fewer unforced errors than 3.5 doubles and have a better sense of positioning by implementing *some* elements of higher level doubles.

If you're in your 20s with a sport background you probably make it to 4.0 in 1-3 years of playing 2-3 times per week with purpose and treating your body well. Continue that and you might play 4.5 in 3-5 years.
Click to expand...


I think those are good points. One that I personally notice for both singles and doubles at 4.0 there is a much high percentage of return of serves in play, where 3.5 just fail to execute often. In that, I think it is a big area for 3.5 players to focus on and improve. You always lose 100% of points you don't serve in, or return a serve in.
 
ChaelAZ said:
I think those are good points. One that I personally notice for both singles and doubles at 4.0 there is a much high percentage of return of serves in play, where 3.5 just fail to execute often. In that, I think it is a big area for 3.5 players to focus on and improve. You always lose 100% of points you don't serve in, or return a serve in.
Click to expand...

The return of serve is an interesting point. I've played a handful of 3.5 players who cannot return a well placed kick serve and I'm 5'8.

I've seen 3.5 players serve one of 3-4 ways that could contribute to them missing a lot of returns against other 3.5 players.

1. The player who hits 100+ mph every serve with 1-2 DFs per game.
2. The player who hits 100+ mph and dinks the 2nd serve.
3. The player who dinks both serves and never DFs.
4. The player who hits 60-80 mph every time with 2-4 DFs per match and will improve to 4.0.

So they're most likely missing returns either from over hitting a weak serve or their opponent actually hitting a good serve.
 
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Started playing seriously as an adult in my mid 30's, am a 4.0 now(45) and hoping to get to 4.5 in a couple of years. Biggest thing is to keep trying to improve by practice and taking lessons when you can.
 
travlerajm said:
Indeed. Half the time, the difference between a 3.5 doubles player and 4.5 doubles player is that the 3.5 doesn’t know where to position himself.
Click to expand...

Yup. Or has all the strokes, but not only doesn't know where to position themselves, but also doesn't know where to hit the ball to and when.
(e.g. hitting behind themselves on a poach ... back to a baseliner ... leaving court open and then blaming their partner)
 
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