From Becker to Big 3 and Hurkacz: Speeding up the game - Short rally dominance in the last three decades!

Rovesciarete · Sep 19, 2024

Serve+ has been a buzzword for many a year and a big forehand often ends now what the server has begun. I think one of the most revealing tennis stats is the all-time win percentage and its trends according to rally length. Case in point is the contrast between the top3 in 1-3 W% of all time - Hurkacz, Federer and Sinner. Hubi tops the shortest points but falls off a cliff while Roger becomes more dominant and Janni is pretty stable. Novak has become a much better serve+ player and Nadal makes logically the biggest jump from 1-3 to 4-6 W%.

Updated weekly(ish). Last update: 2024-09-16 ( No players under a 100 matches and some selections to get Nadal a bit up.)

Player	RallyLen	RLen-Serve	RLen-Return	1-3 W%	4-6 W%	7-9 W%	10+ W%	FH/GS	BH Slice%	FHP/100	BHP/100
Hubert Hurkacz	3.9	3.5	4.2	53.6%	48.7%	45.0%	47.2%	52.6%	16.5%	1.7	-1.9
Roger Federer	3.8	3.6	4.1	53.3%	54.5%	50.0%	53.3%	48.8%	37.0%	8.0	0.1
Jannik Sinner	4.3	4.4	4.3	53.0%	53.3%	52.0%	54.2%	51.2%	6.1%	6.4	2.1
Novak Djokovic	4.7	4.6	4.8	52.6%	54.1%	53.8%	53.7%	49.0%	14.1%	7.8	3.0
Andy Roddick	3.9	3.6	4.2	52.6%	46.5%	44.9%	45.6%	50.8%	22.1%	4.0	-1.3
Daniil Medvedev	4.8	4.4	5.2	52.6%	52.3%	51.9%	53.2%	45.8%	7.7%	4.8	3.3
Nick Kyrgios	3.4	3.2	3.6	52.4%	48.2%	44.3%	46.2%	51.4%	12.8%	5.0	-0.4
Pete Sampras	3.0	2.6	3.4	52.3%	54.0%	43.5%	52.9%	39.3%	33.8%	8.3	0.4
Casper Ruud	4.3	4.3	4.2	52.1%	52.4%	52.2%	48.0%	55.6%	18.4%	8.5	0.2
Juan Martin Del Potro	4.2	4.2	4.3	51.9%	50.4%	47.7%	50.6%	48.2%	27.8%	8.5	1.1
Andy Murray	4.7	4.7	4.7	51.6%	50.6%	49.5%	49.5%	49.1%	24.3%	4.5	2.1
Boris Becker	3.1	2.9	3.3	51.5%	50.7%	46.4%	52.1%	39.1%	39.5%	7.8	2.7
Stefanos Tsitsipas	4.0	3.8	4.2	51.5%	49.4%	46.6%	50.5%	53.4%	22.5%	7.1	-1.8
Alexander Zverev	4.3	4.2	4.5	51.4%	51.4%	47.8%	50.6%	48.3%	11.9%	3.2	2.7
Carlos Alcaraz	4.0	4.0	4.1	51.2%	54.6%	54.8%	55.7%	52.8%	16.0%	8.0	2.3
Rafael Nadal	4.8	5.0	4.5	51.2%	54.5%	55.0%	54.0%	55.0%	17.2%	8.8	2.1

*The 10 point plus rallies are surprisingly often where the greatest shine - with Murray and Roddick falling short.

Donmikan · Sep 19, 2024

Interesting stats, but i think they would tell a much clearer story if they were divided into when a player is serving and when he is receiving.

Rovesciarete · Sep 19, 2024

Donmikan said:
Interesting stats, but i think they would tell a much clearer story if they were divided into when a player is serving and when he is receiving.

Absolutely, you can see that for this bunch the return rallies are generally longer. Some notable exceptions are Sinner and Nadal!

Interesting player pairs when looking at trends, not necessarily levels:

Alcaraz-Nadal: 'Normal' serve but elite forehand and movement with a very good backhand help to win an astonishing amount of 7+ rallies.

Kyrgrios-Roddick: Big servers and a strong forehand but relative weak movement and backhand

Becker-Potro: Very similar outcomes all-around with the Tower having a bigger forehand -duh - but Becker scoring surprisingly high with his backhand.

ghostofMecir · Sep 19, 2024

Rovesciarete said:
Serve+ has been a buzzword for many a year and a big forehand often ends now what the server has begun. I think one of the most revealing tennis stats is the all-time win percentage and its trends according to rally length. Case in point is the contrast between the top3 in 1-3 W% of all time - Hurkacz, Federer and Sinner. Hubi tops the shortest points but falls off a cliff while Roger becomes more dominant and Janni is pretty stable. Novak has become a much better serve+ player and Nadal makes logically the biggest jump from 1-3 to 4-6 W%.

Updated weekly(ish). Last update: 2024-09-16 ( No players under a 100 matches and some selections to get Nadal a bit up.)

Player
RallyLen
RLen-Serve
RLen-Return
1-3 W%
4-6 W%
7-9 W%
10+ W%
FH/GS
BH Slice%
FHP/100
BHP/100
Hubert Hurkacz
3.9
3.5
4.2
53.6%
48.7%
45.0%
47.2%
52.6%
16.5%
1.7
-1.9
Roger Federer
3.8
3.6
4.1
53.3%
54.5%
50.0%
53.3%
48.8%
37.0%
8.0
0.1
Jannik Sinner
4.3
4.4
4.3
53.0%
53.3%
52.0%
54.2%
51.2%
6.1%
6.4
2.1
Novak Djokovic
4.7
4.6
4.8
52.6%
54.1%
53.8%
53.7%
49.0%
14.1%
7.8
3.0
Andy Roddick
3.9
3.6
4.2
52.6%
46.5%
44.9%
45.6%
50.8%
22.1%
4.0
-1.3
Daniil Medvedev
4.8
4.4
5.2
52.6%
52.3%
51.9%
53.2%
45.8%
7.7%
4.8
3.3
Nick Kyrgios
3.4
3.2
3.6
52.4%
48.2%
44.3%
46.2%
51.4%
12.8%
5.0
-0.4
Pete Sampras
3.0
2.6
3.4
52.3%
54.0%
43.5%
52.9%
39.3%
33.8%
8.3
0.4
Casper Ruud
4.3
4.3
4.2
52.1%
52.4%
52.2%
48.0%
55.6%
18.4%
8.5
0.2
Juan Martin Del Potro
4.2
4.2
4.3
51.9%
50.4%
47.7%
50.6%
48.2%
27.8%
8.5
1.1
Andy Murray
4.7
4.7
4.7
51.6%
50.6%
49.5%
49.5%
49.1%
24.3%
4.5
2.1
Boris Becker
3.1
2.9
3.3
51.5%
50.7%
46.4%
52.1%
39.1%
39.5%
7.8
2.7
Stefanos Tsitsipas
4.0
3.8
4.2
51.5%
49.4%
46.6%
50.5%
53.4%
22.5%
7.1
-1.8
Alexander Zverev
4.3
4.2
4.5
51.4%
51.4%
47.8%
50.6%
48.3%
11.9%
3.2
2.7
Carlos Alcaraz
4.0
4.0
4.1
51.2%
54.6%
54.8%
55.7%
52.8%
16.0%
8.0
2.3
Rafael Nadal
4.8
5.0
4.5
51.2%
54.5%
55.0%
54.0%
55.0%
17.2%
8.8
2.1

*The 10 point plus rallies are surprisingly often where the greatest shine - with Murray and Roddick falling short.

Good stuff as per usual. Federer being quite handily the leader of 1-6 is a bit surprising though to confirm we’d have to look at the total % of 1-3 and total % of 4-6 as a part of the entire rally count to know for sure.

Rovesciarete · Sep 19, 2024

ghostofMecir said:
Good stuff as per usual. Federer being quite handily the leader of 1-6 is a bit surprising though to confirm we’d have to look at the total % of 1-3 and total % of 4-6 as a part of the entire rally count to know for sure.

Those short rallies were truly his favourite playground as you can see from the overall length he played*. In general the shorter the rally length the more important the 1-3 and 4-6 W% become.

The confrontation with Nadal and Djokovic blends overt stats and inner eye. While they could not dominate as much with their server during their career will and nature drove them to play one more into the court.

An deep return position seems to shorten points, impressive to see Nole's rally length when returning...

*Roddick had almost exactly the same lengths but obviously lost a lot more..

nolefam_2024 · Sep 28, 2024

Rovesciarete said:
Serve+ has been a buzzword for many a year and a big forehand often ends now what the server has begun. I think one of the most revealing tennis stats is the all-time win percentage and its trends according to rally length. Case in point is the contrast between the top3 in 1-3 W% of all time - Hurkacz, Federer and Sinner. Hubi tops the shortest points but falls off a cliff while Roger becomes more dominant and Janni is pretty stable. Novak has become a much better serve+ player and Nadal makes logically the biggest jump from 1-3 to 4-6 W%.

Updated weekly(ish). Last update: 2024-09-16 ( No players under a 100 matches and some selections to get Nadal a bit up.)

Player
RallyLen
RLen-Serve
RLen-Return
1-3 W%
4-6 W%
7-9 W%
10+ W%
FH/GS
BH Slice%
FHP/100
BHP/100
Hubert Hurkacz
3.9
3.5
4.2
53.6%
48.7%
45.0%
47.2%
52.6%
16.5%
1.7
-1.9
Roger Federer
3.8
3.6
4.1
53.3%
54.5%
50.0%
53.3%
48.8%
37.0%
8.0
0.1
Jannik Sinner
4.3
4.4
4.3
53.0%
53.3%
52.0%
54.2%
51.2%
6.1%
6.4
2.1
Novak Djokovic
4.7
4.6
4.8
52.6%
54.1%
53.8%
53.7%
49.0%
14.1%
7.8
3.0
Andy Roddick
3.9
3.6
4.2
52.6%
46.5%
44.9%
45.6%
50.8%
22.1%
4.0
-1.3
Daniil Medvedev
4.8
4.4
5.2
52.6%
52.3%
51.9%
53.2%
45.8%
7.7%
4.8
3.3
Nick Kyrgios
3.4
3.2
3.6
52.4%
48.2%
44.3%
46.2%
51.4%
12.8%
5.0
-0.4
Pete Sampras
3.0
2.6
3.4
52.3%
54.0%
43.5%
52.9%
39.3%
33.8%
8.3
0.4
Casper Ruud
4.3
4.3
4.2
52.1%
52.4%
52.2%
48.0%
55.6%
18.4%
8.5
0.2
Juan Martin Del Potro
4.2
4.2
4.3
51.9%
50.4%
47.7%
50.6%
48.2%
27.8%
8.5
1.1
Andy Murray
4.7
4.7
4.7
51.6%
50.6%
49.5%
49.5%
49.1%
24.3%
4.5
2.1
Boris Becker
3.1
2.9
3.3
51.5%
50.7%
46.4%
52.1%
39.1%
39.5%
7.8
2.7
Stefanos Tsitsipas
4.0
3.8
4.2
51.5%
49.4%
46.6%
50.5%
53.4%
22.5%
7.1
-1.8
Alexander Zverev
4.3
4.2
4.5
51.4%
51.4%
47.8%
50.6%
48.3%
11.9%
3.2
2.7
Carlos Alcaraz
4.0
4.0
4.1
51.2%
54.6%
54.8%
55.7%
52.8%
16.0%
8.0
2.3
Rafael Nadal
4.8
5.0
4.5
51.2%
54.5%
55.0%
54.0%
55.0%
17.2%
8.8
2.1

*The 10 point plus rallies are surprisingly often where the greatest shine - with Murray and Roddick falling short.

Where is Musetti in this? The guy just loves to play long rallies.

travlerajm · Sep 28, 2024

Rovesciarete said:
Serve+ has been a buzzword for many a year and a big forehand often ends now what the server has begun. I think one of the most revealing tennis stats is the all-time win percentage and its trends according to rally length. Case in point is the contrast between the top3 in 1-3 W% of all time - Hurkacz, Federer and Sinner. Hubi tops the shortest points but falls off a cliff while Roger becomes more dominant and Janni is pretty stable. Novak has become a much better serve+ player and Nadal makes logically the biggest jump from 1-3 to 4-6 W%.

Updated weekly(ish). Last update: 2024-09-16 ( No players under a 100 matches and some selections to get Nadal a bit up.)

Player
RallyLen
RLen-Serve
RLen-Return
1-3 W%
4-6 W%
7-9 W%
10+ W%
FH/GS
BH Slice%
FHP/100
BHP/100
Hubert Hurkacz
3.9
3.5
4.2
53.6%
48.7%
45.0%
47.2%
52.6%
16.5%
1.7
-1.9
Roger Federer
3.8
3.6
4.1
53.3%
54.5%
50.0%
53.3%
48.8%
37.0%
8.0
0.1
Jannik Sinner
4.3
4.4
4.3
53.0%
53.3%
52.0%
54.2%
51.2%
6.1%
6.4
2.1
Novak Djokovic
4.7
4.6
4.8
52.6%
54.1%
53.8%
53.7%
49.0%
14.1%
7.8
3.0
Andy Roddick
3.9
3.6
4.2
52.6%
46.5%
44.9%
45.6%
50.8%
22.1%
4.0
-1.3
Daniil Medvedev
4.8
4.4
5.2
52.6%
52.3%
51.9%
53.2%
45.8%
7.7%
4.8
3.3
Nick Kyrgios
3.4
3.2
3.6
52.4%
48.2%
44.3%
46.2%
51.4%
12.8%
5.0
-0.4
Pete Sampras
3.0
2.6
3.4
52.3%
54.0%
43.5%
52.9%
39.3%
33.8%
8.3
0.4
Casper Ruud
4.3
4.3
4.2
52.1%
52.4%
52.2%
48.0%
55.6%
18.4%
8.5
0.2
Juan Martin Del Potro
4.2
4.2
4.3
51.9%
50.4%
47.7%
50.6%
48.2%
27.8%
8.5
1.1
Andy Murray
4.7
4.7
4.7
51.6%
50.6%
49.5%
49.5%
49.1%
24.3%
4.5
2.1
Boris Becker
3.1
2.9
3.3
51.5%
50.7%
46.4%
52.1%
39.1%
39.5%
7.8
2.7
Stefanos Tsitsipas
4.0
3.8
4.2
51.5%
49.4%
46.6%
50.5%
53.4%
22.5%
7.1
-1.8
Alexander Zverev
4.3
4.2
4.5
51.4%
51.4%
47.8%
50.6%
48.3%
11.9%
3.2
2.7
Carlos Alcaraz
4.0
4.0
4.1
51.2%
54.6%
54.8%
55.7%
52.8%
16.0%
8.0
2.3
Rafael Nadal
4.8
5.0
4.5
51.2%
54.5%
55.0%
54.0%
55.0%
17.2%
8.8
2.1

*The 10 point plus rallies are surprisingly often where the greatest shine - with Murray and Roddick falling short.

Most interesting stat is Pete at only 39% of his groundstrokes being forehands. All the other guys around 50% or higher.

Are we underrating Sampras’ backhand?

nolefam_2024 · Sep 28, 2024

travlerajm said:
Most interesting stat is Pete at only 39% of his groundstrokes being forehands. All the other guys around 50% or higher.

Are we underrating Sampras’ backhand?

How is it possible to even get ball to his backhand. His serve was punishing and he would hit +1 with forehand for sure.

Maybe this doesn't include NET shots. Otherwise impossible.

nolefam_2024 · Sep 28, 2024

Wow it's just baseline pts.

FH/GS – Forehands per groundstroke. This stat counts all baseline shots from the forehand side (including slices, lobs, and dropshots), and divides by all baseline shots, to give an idea of how much each player is favoring the forehand side (or, perhaps, is pushed to one side by his or her opponent’s tactics).

Pete definitely won't have time to run around on fastest surface but 39 % is still low. His backhand is clear cut weakness.

travlerajm · Sep 28, 2024

nolefam_2024 said:
Wow it's just baseline pts.

FH/GS – Forehands per groundstroke. This stat counts all baseline shots from the forehand side (including slices, lobs, and dropshots), and divides by all baseline shots, to give an idea of how much each player is favoring the forehand side (or, perhaps, is pushed to one side by his or her opponent’s tactics).

Pete definitely won't have time to run around on fastest surface but 39 % is still low. His backhand is clear cut weakness.

61% of all his groundstrokes were backhands, yet still 14 slams by age 31. Not bad.

NedStark · Sep 29, 2024

travlerajm said:
Most interesting stat is Pete at only 39% of his groundstrokes being forehands. All the other guys around 50% or higher.

Are we underrating Sampras’ backhand?

Notice that Becker also had similar stats, also at 39%.

travlerajm · Sep 29, 2024

NedStark said:
Notice that Becker also had similar stats, also at 39%.

But Becker was known for having a better bh than fh.

Rovesciarete · Sep 29, 2024

nolefam_2024 said:
Wow it's just baseline pts.

FH/GS – Forehands per groundstroke. This stat counts all baseline shots from the forehand side (including slices, lobs, and dropshots), and divides by all baseline shots, to give an idea of how much each player is favoring the forehand side (or, perhaps, is pushed to one side by his or her opponent’s tactics).

Pete definitely won't have time to run around on fastest surface but 39 % is still low. His backhand is clear cut weakness.

As @NedStark pointed out, Becker has it too. I suppose it is a function of targeting the backhand more with the serve and plus and serve&volley in general. The high slice rate is also indicative of many defensive ones.

NedStark · Sep 29, 2024

Rovesciarete said:
As @NedStark pointed out, Becker has it too. I suppose it is a function of targeting the backhand more with the serve and plus and serve&volley in general. The high slice rate is also indicative of many defensive ones.

Don’t forget about chip and charge

ghostofMecir · Sep 29, 2024

travlerajm said:
Most interesting stat is Pete at only 39% of his groundstrokes being forehands. All the other guys around 50% or higher.

Are we underrating Sampras’ backhand?

nolefam_2024 said:

Wow it's just baseline pts.

FH/GS – Forehands per groundstroke. This stat counts all baseline shots from the forehand side (including slices, lobs, and dropshots), and divides by all baseline shots, to give an idea of how much each player is favoring the forehand side (or, perhaps, is pushed to one side by his or her opponent’s tactics).

Pete definitely won't have time to run around on fastest surface but 39 % is still low. His backhand is clear cut weakness.

Click to expand...

He didn‘t hit many FHs from the baseline on serve because he would a) win the point outright, i.e., ace, service winner, unreturned b) win points off of a volley/overhead, or get passed at net.

On return, he would get caught in BH exchanges as people stayed away from his FH.

travlerajm · Sep 29, 2024

ghostofMecir said:
He didn‘t hit many FHs from the baseline on serve because he would a) win the point outright, i.e., ace, service winner, unreturned b) win points off of a volley/overhead, or get passed at net.

On return, he would get caught in BH exchanges as people stayed away from his FH.

Yet he has one of the highest % win rates on the list for the 4-6 rally category.

Rovesciarete · Sep 29, 2024

NedStark said:
Don’t forget about chip and charge

Correct.

ghostofMecir said:
He didn‘t hit many FHs from the baseline on serve because he would a) win the point outright, i.e., ace, service winner, unreturned b) win points off of a volley/overhead, or get passed at net.

On return, he would get caught in BH exchanges as people stayed away from his FH.

I think this reflects much of the dynamic of that age and even against Boris it was felt a bit safer to go to his backhand.

Rovesciarete · Sep 29, 2024

Different generations of course butt more baseline backhands than forehands and really impressive how Courier stands out - or better inside-out...

Updated weekly(ish). Last update: 2024-09-23

Player	1-3 W%	4-6 W%	7-9 W%	10+ W%	FH/GS	BH Slice%	FHP/Match	FHP/100	BHP/Match	BHP/100
Bjorn Borg	54.0%	52.5%	50.8%	56.8%	45.8%	12.1%	11.8	6.3	11.9	6.0
Pete Sampras	52.3%	54.0%	43.6%	53.0%	39.3%	33.7%	5.7	8.3	0.3	0.4
Mats Wilander	52.0%	45.9%	53.2%	49.7%	39.7%	21.7%	6.9	3.6	6.3	2.7
Boris Becker	51.5%	50.7%	46.4%	52.1%	39.1%	39.5%	6.0	7.8	2.0	2.7
Michael Stich	51.0%	48.2%	43.0%	50.8%	40.6%	38.2%	2.0	2.7	2.2	3.0
Ivan Lendl	51.0%	52.5%	52.7%	49.6%	42.9%	42.8%	9.6	6.7	3.9	3.5
Goran Ivanisevic	50.9%	45.5%	44.1%	51.0%	48.2%	28.7%	4.5	5.3	-0.6	-0.9
Jim Courier	50.9%	50.5%	53.5%	48.0%	54.7%	20.8%	11.4	7.9	3.8	4.1
Stefan Edberg	50.6%	54.0%	41.9%	51.7%	41.2%	48.9%	1.6	2.5	1.5	3.2
John Mcenroe	50.6%	51.1%	43.2%	52.2%	42.9%	35.5%	2.4	3.0	0.3	0.5

travlerajm · Sep 29, 2024

Rovesciarete said:
Different generations of course butt more baseline backhands than forehands and really impressive how Courier stands out - or better inside-out...

Updated weekly(ish). Last update: 2024-09-23

Player
1-3 W%
4-6 W%
7-9 W%
10+ W%
FH/GS
BH Slice%
FHP/Match
FHP/100
BHP/Match
BHP/100
Bjorn Borg
54.0%
52.5%
50.8%
56.8%
45.8%
12.1%
11.8
6.3
11.9
6.0
Pete Sampras
52.3%
54.0%
43.6%
53.0%
39.3%
33.7%
5.7
8.3
0.3
0.4
Mats Wilander
52.0%
45.9%
53.2%
49.7%
39.7%
21.7%
6.9
3.6
6.3
2.7
Boris Becker
51.5%
50.7%
46.4%
52.1%
39.1%
39.5%
6.0
7.8
2.0
2.7
Michael Stich
51.0%
48.2%
43.0%
50.8%
40.6%
38.2%
2.0
2.7
2.2
3.0
Ivan Lendl
51.0%
52.5%
52.7%
49.6%
42.9%
42.8%
9.6
6.7
3.9
3.5
Goran Ivanisevic
50.9%
45.5%
44.1%
51.0%
48.2%
28.7%
4.5
5.3
-0.6
-0.9
Jim Courier
50.9%
50.5%
53.5%
48.0%
54.7%
20.8%
11.4
7.9
3.8
4.1
Stefan Edberg
50.6%
54.0%
41.9%
51.7%
41.2%
48.9%
1.6
2.5
1.5
3.2
John Mcenroe
50.6%
51.1%
43.2%
52.2%
42.9%
35.5%
2.4
3.0
0.3
0.5

Pete and Edberg appear really good at 4-6, while Mats and Courier really good at 7-9. Too bad they don’t show % of rallies going to that length to understand how much this mattered.

nolefam_2024 · Sep 29, 2024

Rovesciarete said:
Different generations of course butt more baseline backhands than forehands and really impressive how Courier stands out - or better inside-out...

Updated weekly(ish). Last update: 2024-09-23

Player
1-3 W%
4-6 W%
7-9 W%
10+ W%
FH/GS
BH Slice%
FHP/Match
FHP/100
BHP/Match
BHP/100
Bjorn Borg
54.0%
52.5%
50.8%
56.8%
45.8%
12.1%
11.8
6.3
11.9
6.0
Pete Sampras
52.3%
54.0%
43.6%
53.0%
39.3%
33.7%
5.7
8.3
0.3
0.4
Mats Wilander
52.0%
45.9%
53.2%
49.7%
39.7%
21.7%
6.9
3.6
6.3
2.7
Boris Becker
51.5%
50.7%
46.4%
52.1%
39.1%
39.5%
6.0
7.8
2.0
2.7
Michael Stich
51.0%
48.2%
43.0%
50.8%
40.6%
38.2%
2.0
2.7
2.2
3.0
Ivan Lendl
51.0%
52.5%
52.7%
49.6%
42.9%
42.8%
9.6
6.7
3.9
3.5
Goran Ivanisevic
50.9%
45.5%
44.1%
51.0%
48.2%
28.7%
4.5
5.3
-0.6
-0.9
Jim Courier
50.9%
50.5%
53.5%
48.0%
54.7%
20.8%
11.4
7.9
3.8
4.1
Stefan Edberg
50.6%
54.0%
41.9%
51.7%
41.2%
48.9%
1.6
2.5
1.5
3.2
John Mcenroe
50.6%
51.1%
43.2%
52.2%
42.9%
35.5%
2.4
3.0
0.3
0.5

Courrier will score very high on my list of baseliners. IO forehand working miracles.

thrust · Sep 29, 2024

travlerajm said:
Most interesting stat is Pete at only 39% of his groundstrokes being forehands. All the other guys around 50% or higher.

Are we underrating Sampras’ backhand?

YES!

nolefam_2024 · Sep 29, 2024

travlerajm said:
Pete and Edberg appear really good at 4-6, while Mats and Courier really good at 7-9. Too bad they don’t show % of rallies going to that length to understand how much this mattered.

In modern tennis it's

70% 0-3
20% 4-8
10% 9+

But Fed played 70% 0-3 shots
Nole just 55%

So it depends on players. But average like this.

Rovesciarete · Nov 7, 2024

nolefam_2024 said:
In modern tennis it's

70% 0-3
20% 4-8
10% 9+

But Fed played 70% 0-3 shots
Nole just 55%

So it depends on players. But average like this.

Interesting that rally length suggests that Sinner should be more similar to elder Djokovic and Alcaraz to younger Federer. Jan makes now much more hay° in the 4-6 range than he used to and should now be over 25% in frequency. He has shortened his rally lengths slightly over the years, while Charlie has been steadily shorter.

Something unique in tennis: the Murcian is able to win one of the highest percentages of return game points while keeping the rally length among the shortest. A return length of 4.0 is something you usually see among fairly weak returners.

Jonas78 · Nov 7, 2024

I wonder to what degree the pros use stats like this to improve. I see Casper wins just 48% of 10+ rallies (a little surprising). Improving this could be crucial to finally win something above 500. Casper isnt stupid, so with the right coach i think he could learn to rally smarter, winning more points.

Rovesciarete · Nov 8, 2024

Jonas78 said:
I wonder to what degree the pros use stats like this to improve. I see Casper wins just 48% of 10+ rallies (a little surprising). Improving this could be crucial to finally win something above 500. Casper isnt stupid, so with the right coach i think he could learn to rally smarter, winning more points.

I think you are thinking about the more important 7-9 rally band. 10+ is most infrequent, so you need a large sample of games. However if you have enough it lines up surprisingly well with an elite baseline package.

Note that Sampras has played few 10+ rallies but against top opponent he was clearly capable of winning considerably more than neutral. Murray suffers imho from th lack of an elite forehand while Wawrinka's backhand looks great but is fairly weak statistically.

Fed's class shows itself also that while he tried from early on to shorten points much more than Nadal&Djokovic and suffers in the 7-9 range he turns it around for the longest ones.

Updated weekly(ish). Last update: 2024-11-04

Player	Matches	RallyLen	RLen-Serve	RLen-Return	1-3 W%	4-6 W%	7-9 W%	10+ W%	FH/GS	BH Slice%	FHP/Match	BHP/Match
Carlos Alcaraz	176	4.0	4.0	4.0	51.3%	54.9%	54.5%	56.1%	52.8%	16.3%	10.4	2.5
Bjorn Borg	32	5.0	5.2	4.7	54.4%	52.8%	50.8%	55.8%	45.8%	12.0%	12.1	12.0
Jannik Sinner	202	4.3	4.4	4.3	53.0%	53.2%	52.3%	54.1%	51.0%	6.1%	9.2	2.9
Rafael Nadal	493	4.8	5.0	4.5	51.2%	54.5%	55.0%	54.0%	55.0%	17.1%	15.6	2.6
Novak Djokovic	578	4.7	4.6	4.8	52.6%	54.2%	53.8%	53.8%	49.0%	14.1%	12.1	4.4
Roger Federer	650	3.8	3.6	4.1	53.3%	54.5%	50.0%	53.4%	48.8%	37.0%	9.9	0.1
Kei Nishikori	117	4.1	4.4	3.8	47.4%	52.1%	56.1%	53.2%	49.4%	14.5%	6.4	4.2
Daniil Medvedev	286	4.8	4.4	5.2	52.6%	52.2%	51.9%	53.1%	45.7%	7.7%	6.6	5.3
Pete Sampras	187	3.0	2.6	3.4	52.3%	54.0%	43.6%	53.0%	39.3%	33.7%	5.7	0.3
Andre Agassi	188	3.8	4.1	3.5	49.9%	52.3%	56.3%	52.9%	46.5%	9.2%	12.4	7.7
Andrey Rublev	192	3.9	4.1	3.8	50.5%	52.7%	54.5%	52.5%	50.9%	9.5%	13.2	1.6
Andy Murray	302	4.7	4.7	4.7	51.5%	50.6%	49.5%	49.5%	49.1%	24.3%	6.9	2.7
Stan Wawrinka	156	4.1	4.0	4.2	50.9%	47.7%	50.3%	49.0%	49.8%	31.2%	5.7	0.3
Casper Ruud	170	4.2	4.3	4.2	52.1%	52.2%	52.2%	47.9%	55.6%	18.5%	11.1	0.2
Andy Roddick	112	3.9	3.6	4.1	52.5%	46.6%	44.9%	45.8%	50.8%	22.1%	5.3	-1.3

From Becker to Big 3 and Hurkacz: Speeding up the game - Short rally dominance in the last three decades!

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