Full Bed Gut vs Gut/Poly for Doubles

[Deleted member 765152]

First Outing:
I'm a 4.5 who plays mostly doubles with 4.0 - 4.5 and once in a while with a few 5.0 guys.
My racket is a soft Head Microgel Radical OS.
I've been having wrist, elbow, shoulder pain after I switched from Babolat VS 1.30mm/YPTP 1.20mm to Wilson 1.30mm/YPTP 1.20mm.

Wilson gut in red packaging is noticeably stiffer than Babolat VS.
The pain is bad enough that now even with VS 1.25mm/YPTP 1.20mm at 57/52 lbs, I still feel pain in my wrist even with a fresh string job.
I can only imagine how much more it will hurt after 3 or 4 more outings when poly becomes harsher.

So I strung up a full bed of VS 1.25mm at 60 lbs and played with it along with gut/poly setup.
Gut/poly has more spin and better control while full gut has better power, feel and comfort.
I could feel a tinge of wrist pain when I hit with gut/poly but not with full gut.

I was surprised that I played pretty well with full gut.
On serve returns, I usually chip & charge or hit moderate topspin strokes to take the net.
On my serves, I serve & volley 80% of the time.

I rarely slug it out from the baseline in doubles as my winning % is higher when I'm at the net.
Surprisingly I didn't really miss ~20% drop in topspin using full gut vs gut/poly.
I was able to swing out more on my serves and groundstrokes (due to lack of pain) which may have compensated.

Before the match I sprayed full bed VS 1.25mm with silicone spray and the strings snapped back nicely.
Hopefully it will stay that way until breakage.
It's nice to know I can use full bed gut until or close to breakage, since there is no poly to become harsh.
I still have more confidence in gut/poly, but my arm is telling me that it may be time to abandon poly altogether.

 

[FIRETennis]

Try an even softer poly cross: Wilson Revolve, Tourna Black Zone, Yonex Poly Tour Air, Isospeed Cream.
Replace crosses after 8h of singles.
I think you can easily play with both setups as long as the launch angle is the same so you can just pick up the other racquet and you wouldn't have to adjust any strokes.

 

[Frankc]

Curious, how is the serve with full gut? Many find a great increase in spin and ease and power there...
If you are sorta happy now - just wait until you really get used to the different feel and stroke production for full gut...
You are lucky to have a nice close pattern in that Head for full gut.
Lastly, everyone (and I know that it is hard to fathom), you can walk onto a tennis court without poly. That is OK. And you can play an effective, high level game without poly. That is proven...
I know, hard to believe...

 

[Deleted member 765152]

Try an even softer poly cross: Wilson Revolve, Tourna Black Zone, Yonex Poly Tour Air, Isospeed Cream.
Replace crosses after 8h of singles.
I think you can easily play with both setups as long as the launch angle is the same so you can just pick up the other racquet and you wouldn't have to adjust any strokes.

I tried Revolve and Cream as cross with gut, but did not like them as they felt too gummy and lacked control compared to gut/YPTP.
If I play singles which I almost never do these days, I would still use gut/poly.
But the marginal difference doesn't seem to matter much in doubles, at least not in casual play.
When I play in a doubles tournament, I will have 1 racket strung with VS/YPTP just in case.

 

[Deleted member 765152]

Curious, how is the serve with full gut? Many find a great increase in spin and ease and power there...
If you are sorta happy now - just wait until you really get used to the different feel and stroke production for full gut...
You are lucky to have a nice close pattern in that Head for full gut.
Lastly, everyone (and I know that it is hard to fathom), you can walk onto a tennis court without poly. That is OK. And you can play an effective, high level game without poly. That is proven...
I know, hard to believe...

With full gut, I can serve without worrying about wrist or shoulder pain. So I can swing more freely and get extra pace.
However gut/poly gives me an extra dip and kick on the kick serves.
With additional practice with full gut, I believe I will be just as good in doubles or close to it.
What I won't miss with poly is playing 1 day and having 2 days of arm pain. Makes me almost want to give up tennis.

 

[mctennis]

I have used a full gut bed for years. It has been great for all those years. I started using a hybrid so to keep the cost down off and on during the years. I have had great luck with control, touch, and spin the way I play. Most newer players live and die on the baseline with spin, spin, and more spin.
Stay with a full bed of gut to play doubles. I play mostly doubles so it is a great choice.

 

[socallefty]

How long do you play with your gut/poly hybrids that is causing you discomfort? If you don't break strings, you should still cut out the strings within 10-15 hours (depending on the poly stiffness) to prevent playing with "dead" poly that has lost its resilience and elasticity. Gut these days has coatings that prevent them from fraying and breaking quickly and so many players don't break the gut/poly hybrid strings till well past the time the poly is dead - once the poly is dead, it will cause discomfort even if it is in a hybrid.

I used to play with full-bed gut for many years on a Gen 1 Pure Strike Tour which was too stiff for my elbow to tolerate poly strings. Now, with a more flexible racquet (Gen 3 Pure Strike Tour), I play with a gut/poly hybrid and I find that with the extra spin and lower launch angle that the poly crosses give me, I can hit out more freely and so, my pace and topspin have both increased. I am breaking the hybrid usually within 15 hours and if I don't, I cut them out. So, comfort has not been an issue for me stringing at 48/45. I can also play with full poly strung around 40 lbs as long as it is a soft poly.

 

[Deleted member 765152]

How long do you play with your gut/poly hybrids that is causing you discomfort? If you don't break strings, you should still cut out the strings within 10-15 hours (depending on the poly stiffness) to prevent playing with "dead" poly that has lost its resilience and elasticity. Gut these days has coatings that prevent them from fraying and breaking quickly and so many players don't break the gut/poly hybrid strings till well past the time the poly is dead - once the poly is dead, it will cause discomfort even if it is in a hybrid.

I used to play with full-bed gut for many years on a Gen 1 Pure Strike Tour which was too stiff for my elbow to tolerate poly strings. Now, with a more flexible racquet (Gen 3 Pure Strike Tour), I play with a gut/poly hybrid and I find that with the extra spin and lower launch angle that the poly crosses give me, I can hit out more freely and so, my pace and topspin have both increased. I am breaking the hybrid usually within 15 hours and if I don't, I cut them out. So, comfort has not been an issue for me stringing at 48/45. I can also play with full poly strung around 40 lbs as long as it is a soft poly.

I usually break VS gut mains on gut/poly at 8 - 12 hours depending on the level of players I play against.
Your arm is a lot healthier than mine cuz I can't use full poly at any tension.
I used VS/YPTP for a few years without any major arm issues.

But that stiffer Wilson/Lux gut ruined my arm. Now I can't even use freshly strung VS 1.25mm/YPTP without wrist pain.
For a while I didn't even get circulation in my hitting hand. It was pale white and I couldn't even grab the racket.
I don't feel like I miss much in using full gut vs gut/poly in doubles and it's not worth it for me to jeopardize my long term arm health for an extra 200 rpm.

Hopefully my arm will heal enough that I can use gut/poly again.
But then again, my arm is not getting any younger so I may have to go full gut until the end of my playing days.
I'm surprised at the amount of spin and control I can get from a full bed VS 1.25mm at 60 lbs with silicone spray.

 

[mctennis]

I really do not understand why you are getting wrist pain with the Wilson/Lux gut in your racquet. I have been using Wilson/Lux gut for over two years and I have never had wrist issues with it. I have been using a gut hybrid setup and I cannot remember any wrist/shoulder/ arm issues with using this gut.
I always thought a full bed of gut gave me good spin and excellent feel and control.
I do hope your hand and wrist heal up soon for you. Have you been to a physician to have them evaluate your wrist issue? Make sure it is not something else and perhaps do some PT on the wrist area. Just a thought.

 

[SlvrDragon50]

For a while I didn't even get circulation in my hitting hand. It was pale white

I feel like this is something that needs to be looked at. I've hit 40+ hours on Klip/Grapplesnake Irukandji at 58/52 without issues (until moments before string breakage). Loss of circulation is telling me there's some sort of chronic inflammation that is worsened with muscle activation, and that's extending beyond any sort of basic tendonitis issue.

 

[Deleted member 765152]

I really do not understand why you are getting wrist pain with the Wilson/Lux gut in your racquet. I have been using Wilson/Lux gut for over two years and I have never had wrist issues with it. I have been using a gut hybrid setup and I cannot remember any wrist/shoulder/ arm issues with using this gut.
I always thought a full bed of gut gave me good spin and excellent feel and control.
I do hope your hand and wrist heal up soon for you. Have you been to a physician to have them evaluate your wrist issue? Make sure it is not something else and perhaps do some PT on the wrist area. Just a thought.

As soon as I hit with Wilson gut/YPTP the first time, I could tell it was stiffer and lower powered than VS/YPTP.
So I had to swing harder to get the same pace on serves and groundstrokes.
Also for a stretch of a couple of months, I played a lot of tennis.
My wrist, elbow and shoulder kept getting worse incrementally, until one day my hand said STOP!
I went to acupuncture for 2 weeks and my hand regained regular circulation, but my wrist, elbow and shoulder are still sore.

 

[Deleted member 765152]

I feel like this is something that needs to be looked at. I've hit 40+ hours on Klip/Grapplesnake Irukandji at 58/52 without issues (until moments before string breakage). Loss of circulation is telling me there's some sort of chronic inflammation that is worsened with muscle activation, and that's extending beyond any sort of basic tendonitis issue.

I went to an acupuncturist and he said my circulation was getting cut off partially at neck, shoulder and elbow.
After 2 weeks of acupuncture, I regained most of the circulation.
But after playing tennis, my wrist, elbow and shoulder would hurt.
So I sold off all my Wilson gut and replaced them with VS 17g, both gut/poly and full gut.
I still get some wrist pain with VS/YPTP but practically no pain with full VS.

 

[Deleted member 765152]

2nd Outing:
Tonight I played 5 sets of doubles and rallied for about 15 mins singles.
Since I was playing mostly against 3.5 and 4.0 players, I only used the full bed gut racket.
The best shots with full gut are overheads and touch volleys. So sweet and no pain.
I still have a little trouble with getting the right depth on my 1st serves, as it sails long sometimes with less spin than with gut/poly.
Also when I chip & charge, the full bed gut really pockets the ball and I have to make sure I wait a bit before moving forward too quickly.

Overall I played pretty well as I took control of the net with low slice approaches, volleys and overheads.
But I was playing against lower level opponents.
One really great thing is my wrist, elbow and shoulder do not hurt.
With gut/poly, I would not be able to play 3+ sets without noticeable pain.

P.S. Now my neck is bothering me. Not sure if it has anything to do with strings or tennis altogether, but it makes it hard to look up to serve.

 

[Frankc]

Best of luck... work your way patiently through this. As you know, joint sensitivity to strings is an individual thing, no doubt. You will find many who agree that VS is more vibrant and less stiff compared to LUX gut. So your perceptions ring true. If you can find some Pacific gut, and string it down, you will get a softer, more dynamic feel (again, some do not want that dynamic feel as they keep looking for more control and stiffness).
If you want, you can add more softness to the feel by using VS mains and a good lively multi in the cross. The effect will almost feel more like VS before they stiffened the formula with the BT7 process. Others have posted this hybrid - they seek a softer, more powerful and soothing string bed.
One other thought, so many of today's frames are not natty gut friendly( far too open string patterns for gut) and are definitely not made for feel... Really too bad...
Be patient, a pinched nerve in my neck really weakened my shoulder for more than a year - time and a talented massage technician helped me heal.

 

[mctennis]

I hope you heal up quickly. Take it slow and easy. I am glad the full bed of gut did not hurt your body. I love playing with a full bed of gut when playing doubles. The touch shots make it so easy at the net. Makes having those " soft hands" shots seem effortless.

 

[mctennis]

Best of luck... work your way patiently through this. As you know, joint sensitivity to strings is an individual thing, no doubt. You will find many who agree that VS is more vibrant and less stiff compared to LUX gut. So your perceptions ring true. If you can find some Pacific gut, and string it down, you will get a softer, more dynamic feel (again, some do not want that dynamic feel as they keep looking for more control and stiffness).
If you want, you can add more softness to the feel by using VS mains and a good lively multi in the cross. The effect will almost feel more like VS before they stiffened the formula with the BT7 process. Others have posted this hybrid - they seek a softer, more powerful and soothing string bed.
One other thought, so many of today's frames are not natty gut friendly( far too open string patterns for gut) and are definitely not made for feel... Really too bad...
Be patient, a pinched nerve in my neck really weakened my shoulder for more than a year - time and a talented massage technician helped me heal.

I agree with you the BT7 addition made Babalot strings not play well for me. I stopped using them. To me they played stiff and had very little feel. Perhaps it is just me. Play with whatever strings does better for you, both less body damage and better in playing.

 

[mctennis]

I feel like this is something that needs to be looked at. I've hit 40+ hours on Klip/Grapplesnake Irukandji at 58/52 without issues (until moments before string breakage). Loss of circulation is telling me there's some sort of chronic inflammation that is worsened with muscle activation, and that's extending beyond any sort of basic tendonitis issue.

Which Klip do you use or like the best? I was thinking of trying the uncoated version in a hybrid mix with the Irukandji. I have a half set of the Irukandji left. I tried it as a hybrid in my one racquet with gut mains. I think I put them in too tight in my 18X20 pattern racquet. The rec tensions are 50-60 and I put them in at 59/57. I will try them back down at the 56/52 tensions.

 

[SlvrDragon50]

Uncoated Klip

 

[fuzz nation]

With full gut, I can serve without worrying about wrist or shoulder pain. So I can swing more freely and get extra pace.
However gut/poly gives me an extra dip and kick on the kick serves.
With additional practice with full gut, I believe I will be just as good in doubles or close to it.
What I won't miss with poly is playing 1 day and having 2 days of arm pain. Makes me almost want to give up tennis.

Dump the poly.

Because you've been managing some pain lately, I'd say play with full beds of gut or multifiber for a little while - how about a few months - to keep everything headed in the right direction. If you try to get by with some sort of hybrid including a poly cross, you're probably just juggling hand grenades and hoping for the best.

If you like more of a crispy, punchy feel from your strings, you may find that with some multis or a snug bed of gut, but you might also get that from syn. gut. I can slug every day with that string in my frames tensioned at the mid-to-high 50's with total comfort. Some are more firm than others, but there's always a moderate degree of softness with those strings that's night-and-day better for me than poly.

Rumor has it that Kirschbaum will be bringing their fantastic syn. gut back to our shores soon. If they do, I'll probably buy a couple miles of that buttery stuff. Although I don't routinely play with multis, I keep a reel of Prince Premier Control 16 on hand for string jobs that need that string type. I sampled a bed of PPC in one of my own racquets and its tension maintenance has been much better than with any multifiber I can recall trying in recent history. If I weren't so happy with syn. gut, this would be the string I'd use all the time.

Forten Sweet 16 is soft enough to work as an alternative to a multifiber and it's more affordable than most multis, too. Prince Original SG is more middle of the road in terms of firmness. Gosen OGSM 16 is typically too firm for my taste unless maybe it's installed at a lower tension, but I'll admit that I'm doing very well right now with beds of OGSM 17 in my Volkl C10's at 54 lbs. This is giving me all the performance and feel that I want and it's also a little more durable than some other lighter gauge SG's.

I should note that I love good doubles, probably because I was a serve-and-volleyer growing up and I still love doing business up at the net when playing doubles or singles. I prefer that semi crisp feel of syn. gut compared with most multis for better touch around the net, but syn. gut also has a little liveliness to it that I've never found with the poly hybrids I've sampled in recent years. That means that my volleys have a little zip and command to them with they syn. gut. Poly just seems to diminish the response of my string bed, but I can make all the spin I want with my skinny syn. gut. No performance benefit for me with poly... and it also annihilated my arm a few years ago, so I won't be going back.

 

[fuzz nation]

Curious, how is the serve with full gut? Many find a great increase in spin and ease and power there...
If you are sorta happy now - just wait until you really get used to the different feel and stroke production for full gut...
You are lucky to have a nice close pattern in that Head for full gut.
Lastly, everyone (and I know that it is hard to fathom), you can walk onto a tennis court without poly. That is OK. And you can play an effective, high level game without poly. That is proven...
I know, hard to believe...

Right on!!

Unfortunately too many of the believers are those - like myself - who got sidelined with arm injuries after playing with that stuff.

 

[Sardines]

Well the most important thing is that you don't feel pain? Short of moving to the Wilson Triad, which is also soft that it didn't feel like a racquet in hand to me, if full gut allows you to play pain free, then stick with it.
Hybrids will usually have the better spin and control, since poly is deader and smoother. You may also want to try the gut/Triax, which is also very soft, but smooth and may give you back some of the spin.

So I strung up a full bed of VS 1.25mm at 60 lbs and played with it along with gut/poly setup.
Gut/poly has more spin and better control while full gut has better power, feel and comfort.
I could feel a tinge of wrist pain when I hit with gut/poly but not with full gut.

I was surprised that I played pretty well with full gut.
On serve returns, I usually chip & charge or hit moderate topspin strokes to take the net.
On my serves, I serve & volley 80% of the time.

I rarely slug it out from the baseline in doubles as my winning % is higher when I'm at the net.
Surprisingly I didn't really miss ~20% drop in topspin using full gut vs gut/poly.
I was able to swing out more on my serves and groundstrokes (due to lack of pain) which may have compensated.

Before the match I sprayed full bed VS 1.25mm with silicone spray and the strings snapped back nicely.
Hopefully it will stay that way until breakage.
It's nice to know I can use full bed gut until or close to breakage, since there is no poly to become harsh.
I still have more confidence in gut/poly, but my arm is telling me that it may be time to abandon poly altogether.

 

[mctennis]

I hope Kirschbaum brings back their syn gut. I had not heard that rumor. I hope that is true.
That is as long as they do not change the formula of the Kirschbaum syn gut.

 

[Deleted member 765152]

3rd Outing;
Played 4 sets of doubles with my regular group of 4.0 - 4.5's.
Now I'm starting to dial in the serves and groundstrokes on full bed gut.
I'm getting good depth control with moderate topspin serves and forehand. Not quite gut/poly accurate, but close enough.
Volleys and overheads are just heavenly with full gut. I put away quite a few backhand overheads.

Usually by set 3, my shoulder is hurting enough that I wince when I serve.
But I served my best in the 4th set today with accuracy and pace, without pain.
My neck is still hurting so I served at 70% - 80%, but I held every serve except once when I tried to get too cute with the volleys.

Surprisingly full bed gut (sprayed with silicone spray) is still snapping back nicely. Not one string out of place.
I knew gut had very good tension maintenance but it is ridiculously good. The racket doesn't seem to have any significant tension loss from day 1.
It has been a long time since I played practically wrist, elbow, shoulder pain free. I forgot what it felt like.
If I can get FULLY dialed in within the next week or two, I will cut out the poly from my freshly strung gut/poly and just go full bed gut in both rackets.

P.S. I installed 1 Babolat string saver in the middle of the string bed, as it is starting to fray.

 

[Sardines]

FYI, if you're using oil based silicone spray, it may damage your paint. Waterbased (food grade) may be healthier for you and your playing friends, since it does rub off on the ball. But waterbased will kill the gut faster..

 

[Deleted member 765152]

FYI, if you're using oil based silicone spray, it may damage your paint. Waterbased (food grade) may be healthier for you and your playing friends, since it does rub off on the ball. But waterbased will kill the gut faster..

Not sure if the 3M Dry Silicone spray I'm using is oil or water based.
I spray the string bed and let is sit for 24 hours. Then I wipe it down before playing.
I don't see any visible marks on the ball from the spray, although it could be too small to see with naked eye.
If it damages the paint, I'm ok with it as I'm using 12 year old Microgel Radical OS.

 

[Frankc]

Glad that you are playing well and enjoying yourself - time & patience in healing...

 

[Sardines]

Not sure if the 3M Dry Silicone spray I'm using is oil or water based.
I spray the string bed and let is sit for 24 hours. Then I wipe it down before playing.
I don't see any visible marks on the ball from the spray, although it could be too small to see with naked eye.
If it damages the paint, I'm ok with it as I'm using 12 year old Microgel Radical OS.

Dry type spray is the best option. The effects are usually a fluffier ball that stays fluffy like it has some gel. It's usually very light and goes away as it is worn off, but noticeable.