Full motion during serve for intermediate players

[leodevlin]

Hello,

I am a 3.5 player struggling with my serve. I am trying to really go for the full motion involving shoulder turn, knee bend, rocket drop but it's not really coming together.

At my level is it advisable to do just a very reduced version of this motion and slowly add to it or is it really better trying to put it all together from the beginning?

Thanks,
Leo

 

[BallChaser]

To have a whole package coordinated, practice serve with slow motion. The main reason why we bend knee is to use leg muscles to lift your chest towards the ball and initiate your forward swinging motion. Feel it. Shoulder turn generates effortless power by recoiling. Feel it. Racket drop occurs naturally as a result of relaxed shoulder and elbow. Don't drop racket on purpose.

Doing just a very reduced version can be helpful in finding a right contact point, learning to pronate, and finding a right place for your dominant arm at trophy position. If you think you have any issue in these elements, try a very reduced version.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Hello,

I am a 3.5 player struggling with my serve. I am trying to really go for the full motion involving shoulder turn, knee bend, rocket drop but it's not really coming together.

At my level is it advisable to do just a very reduced version of this motion and slowly add to it or is it really better trying to put it all together from the beginning?

Thanks,
Leo

I'm a mid-4.5 trying to improve my serve and I could do better in every component of the serve. When I practice, I work on one thing and one thing only. Two will probably result in worse results and anything more than two will probably be a disaster. Unless you're a highly talented and athletic person who can learn kinesthetically, I'd keep it as simple as possible.

Remember those marble games where the object is to get each marble into a hole? The easy way to solve it is to just isolate one marble and one hole. Then, while balancing the game delicately so as not to disturb the first marble, work on the second. And so on.

Now envision how much more difficult it would be if you had to get all marbles in their respective holes simultaneously. Way more difficult.

First: find a model upon which to base your serve. You don't want to copy everything 100% but use it as a guide.

Whether you use a platform or pinpoint stance will narrow the field [Federer is the classic platform, for example].

Second; video yourself from all angles and review it in real-time so you can get instant feedback. Don't record for a session and only look at it when you get home because you may see a major flaw that you could have corrected early on.

Compare this video to your model. Get a feel for what you're doing well and where you need improvement and by how much.

Practice your throwing motion. There are arguments for the serve being more akin to a football [American] pass than a baseball pitch but that's secondary: if you have lousy throw mechanics, you'll have lousy serve mechanics.

Use shadow swings. Omit the ball and just go through the motions. The value is that the ball acts a trigger to engage all of your current bad habits. Removing the ball removes the trigger. Now you can concentrate on fixing things. If you're indoors with limited space, you can even omit the racquet.

Don't forget about the toss: the best serve mechanics won't be of much use with a terrible or random toss.

Find a good coach, who will be able to see things that you can't, even when you're reviewing your video [although one demand I'd have for a coach is that he use video].

 

[Keendog]

Yeah I would say get the arm motion down first, wrong timing on the other things can actually detract from power

 

[TagUrIt]

You can always do a half serve motion. Take out the full swing and start with your racquet already back. WTA player Caroline Garcia used to serve this way and it was very effective.

 

[Dragy]

Yeah I would say get the arm motion down first, wrong timing on the other things can actually detract from power

Agree, start with preset trophy pose (elbow high, palm down):

Then toss and swing up at the ball, slightly across the target direction, using moderately intensive torso rotation and arm motion.

You can then start bending your knees a bit, opening chest up to the sky a bit, but then just do same swinging at the ball - not focusing on leg push or something. Balance, smoothness, clean contact.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

As others have suggested, forget the full motion. Too many hitches or timing problems happen when players attempt to full motion before everything else is in place. The 2 most important parts of the serve are the serve toss and the upward swing to contact. Next in importance, is moving thru a proper trophy phase and the raccqet drop -- on edge, without the dreaded Waiters Tray error (WTE). Decent coil and some shoulder tilt should also be employed. Knee flexion and leg drive can be added later.

Agree, start with preset trophy pose (elbow high, palm down):

Then toss and swing up at the ball, slightly across the target direction, using moderately intensive torso rotation and arm motion.

You can then start bending your knees a bit, opening chest up to the sky a bit, but then just do same swinging at the ball - not focusing on leg push or something. Balance, smoothness, clean contact.

I like this as a starting position for a half-service motion. But I prefer to refer to this as a "salute" position rather than a trophy position. (The raccqet is typically higher than this in the conventional trophy position).

So start the serving arm & raccqet in this salute position with a decent coil. The toss the ball and let the tossing hand continue upward after the ball release. This will aid in achieving a better shoulder tilt. The salute serve start is shown after 1:18 in the video below.

After the salute serve (half-serve) is mastered, then try for a 3/4 serve motion. You might try the "stir the paint" position shown after 2:40 in the following video. Or you might try a starting position somewhere between the salute position and the stir paint position. (This is sometimes referred to as a power position. Similar to the position we see with Andy Roddick's serve).

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

You can always do a half serve motion. Take out the full swing and start with your racquet already back. WTA player Caroline Garcia used to serve this way and it was very effective.

I noticed she has switched to a more conventional motion; I wonder why. Was the original switch due to a problem which she has since fixed?

 

[leodevlin]

Thanks everyone for your comments. It seems that most people agree that it should be some reduced version.

The thing is though that I can pretty much do individual parts of the serve in isolation quite well. I can have a decent ball toss, can hit the ball in the righ position but the second trying to put it together, the wheels come off.

I notice that everything starts with a good ball toss. When I toss the ball in the right position and height , things sort of work out for the better. The racket drop is still a huge problem. I do a lof of shadow swing and feel great when doing so , but the second the ball comes into the mix the racket drop goes to the south very quickly. It's years of muscle memory NOT doing a proper racket drop.

Will try some of the suggestions and see how it works.

Thanks again,
Leo

 

[TagUrIt]

I noticed she has switched to a more conventional motion; I wonder why. Was the original switch due to a problem which she has since fixed?

That’s a good question, I personally feel that even though she could place it, she just wasn’t getting the pace she needed to to be competitive. There are a LOT of big servers in the WTA, I think she was just trying to keep up.

 

[TnsGuru]

Just to serve with a proper continental grip is challenging enough but adding all the other elements you describe such as the knee bend, shoulder turn, etc. will have to be added in increments over time as you master certain elements of the serve. I suggest video yourself to see your progress and see if you are indeed adding the elements you are desiring.

A good coach who specializes in the service would be ideal. If you have friends that serve well ask for advice or tips that can help you.

 

[Jake Speeed]

See Post below. Evidently you cannot delete a Post?

 

[Jake Speeed]

Could someone please let me know if this instructor is a member of TW? I'm referring to the gentleman in this video. Post #7.

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...during-serve-for-intermediate-players.691967/

 

[stachu]

That’s a good question, I personally feel that even though she could place it, she just wasn’t getting the pace she needed to to be competitive. There are a LOT of big servers in the WTA, I think she was just trying to keep up.

Actually, Caroline Garcia is one of the fastest servers on WTA. Her serve of 126 mph at 2016 Fed Cup is the 9th fastest woman's serve ever.

 

[Jake Speeed]

There's no way I can forget the coaching I received from my grandfather, I still use much of it today and over my teaching career.

Most of the difficulty I've seen with serving is the lack of ball control. No, I'm not referring to the ball going into the court, hardly,

I'm talking well before this. In fact, if anyone has read JS, I mention getting the ball into the service area is something I have little concern with. This can happen eventually.

"Cleaning up a poor service "motion" has nothing to do with putting the ball in play or even hitting a ball. Somehow this is never learned?

Remember I said I have my students "turn their back to the net" and hit into the curtain.

So. How do you teach ball control in the serve? Well, you first have to realize how important this task is.

Tell me, "how important is this task and why?"

Well, for simple starters, it's the only ball you have complete and total control over. After contact with the service ball, your chasing down balls which are hit by your opponent. Different speed, different spin, different bounce height, all over the court. Yikes! I know, bummer!

The perfect toss! Examine the toss. The toss must be done the exact same way each and every time for the type of serve desired.

A good thing, because there's only 3 real serves, eliminating invented junk like the reverse spin or underhand serve.

With this said, why on earth are many Club players tossing the ball in random places? Never the same place twice, almost.

So, how do you learn to toss the ball in the same identical place over and over repeatedly.

Practice? Absolutely NOT!! "CORRECT" practice is what it takes! I'll get back to this if there's interest, but right now I'm re-grouting the master bath and not doing it because I'm doing this.

JS