Full team default beneficial?

[winchestervatennis]

I play in a 4.5 men's 18 and over league in the MidAtlantic section in the Shenandoah area. There are only 2 teams. We had 8 matches scheduled. We won 3, they won 3, and they had full team defaults for 2 matches. 1 of the defaults they could get 4 guys to play (this is a 2 singles 3 dubs match format) and the other we showed up on sat as scheduled but the other team captain goofed and told his guys Sunday.

So final result was we win 5-3 right? WRONG according to usta. There is a rule that says a team cannot advance to districts if their winning record is a result of full team default. So the two defaults get taken out of the record, it is then 3-3, and we're behind on matches lost. Is it just me (and my team) or is that insane? It actually benefited them to default those matches.

If you really think about it, that rule makes it so if a team can't field it's best lineup, they should default. Or taking it even farther if you win the first match, default the rest and you win. (Keep in mind this is for a 2 team league)

Usta gave us the option to play one of the missed matches but I'm sure you know how difficult scheduling can be, field 8 guys on a weeks notice is rough.

So the other teams default is actually beneficial. Go USTA.

 

[winchestervatennis]

Sorry should say they couldn't get 4 guys

 

[JLyon]

if they had 2 team defaults they should have been DQ'ed, but with only 2 teams not sure how that would work.
Thinking your district goofed and they should allow your team to advance.
Interesting though because most districts would maybe allow 1 full team default but never 2

 

[schmke]

In our section, or area at least, I've seen a team that has any full default made ineligible for post-season play and all of their results are ignored so as to not penalize/benefit the teams that did have to play the team and create an equal playing field for the full sub-flight. This of course with more than 2 teams though.

But I agree, it does not make sense for the defaulting team to benefit. I'd read your sections rules closely to see what is documented for a situation like this.

 

[OrangePower]

Off topic, but in may many years of playing league, I have yet to see a full team default happen, and only handful of matches where one team could only field 4 players (3 lines in a 5 line league).

Not to say that teams are never completely shorthanded, but that when that happens, captains will reschedule the match. Maybe captains in my area are more accommodating than elsewhere or something.

 

[J_R_B]

In our section, or area at least, I've seen a team that has any full default made ineligible for post-season play and all of their results are ignored so as to not penalize/benefit the teams that did have to play the team and create an equal playing field for the full sub-flight. This of course with more than 2 teams though.

But I agree, it does not make sense for the defaulting team to benefit. I'd read your sections rules closely to see what is documented for a situation like this.

I have only once seen a team default a match and then play in districts. It was a situation where two teams advance from a league and by the last week, the two top teams had already clinched with one match against each other left, and there was some animosity between the captains. The "best" team defaulted the last dual match to the other team then throttled them in the playoffs two weeks later.

 

[GatorTennis]

in our section, a team default immediately dq's the team and their matches are removed. I've seen it happen once and it cause a huge issue because it affected the tie break between the top two teams. The offending team was banned for multiple years. Probably steep because USTA National got involved.

 

[winchestervatennis]

Yeah I think I need to read the rules in more detail, but the local league coordinator tells me tough luck and my appeal to the state adult coordinator fell on deaf ears (in fact she just sent me a form for suggesting a rule change).

 

[winchestervatennis]

Off topic, but in may many years of playing league, I have yet to see a full team default happen, and only handful of matches where one team could only field 4 players (3 lines in a 5 line league).

Not to say that teams are never completely shorthanded, but that when that happens, captains will reschedule the match. Maybe captains in my area are more accommodating than elsewhere or something.

Scheduling is normally a nightmare with the original schedule. But then trying to reschedule is like herding cats.

 

[Topaz]

I have had experience, on both ends with this rule as well (in VA).

I hope you can get that reschedule.

 

[bethany2]

Interesting. Similar experience recently in a Mid-Atlantic two-team league where the MAS actually told us that neither team can advance in the case of a default. In our case it is the opposite situation where the leading team defaulted a match so now if we (the second place team) don't agree to a reschedule then they won't allow either team to advance regardless of which team wins the league. In our case though, either team could still win the league whether we make up that match or not, so a little different than yours.

It seems like they made a reasonable rule to help deal with defaults but are now following it by the letter rather than the spirit. So in 2-team leagues they end up punishing the wrong team.

I don't know how to send PMs on here but if you want to send me your info I can send you the official info I've gotten from the section about our situation in case it helps!

 

[winchestervatennis]

Interesting. Similar experience recently in a Mid-Atlantic two-team league where the MAS actually told us that neither team can advance in the case of a default. In our case it is the opposite situation where the leading team defaulted a match so now if we (the second place team) don't agree to a reschedule then they won't allow either team to advance regardless of which team wins the league. In our case though, either team could still win the league whether we make up that match or not, so a little different than yours.

It seems like they made a reasonable rule to help deal with defaults but are now following it by the letter rather than the spirit. So in 2-team leagues they end up punishing the wrong team.

I don't know how to send PMs on here but if you want to send me your info I can send you the official info I've gotten from the section about our situation in case it helps!

I would appreciate that. You can email me at dswecker@mafc.com. I haven't found half a brain between all the usta folks I've had to deal with.

 

[Topaz]

Yes, it is really when there are only 2 teams in the league where it gets kinda sticky...not everyone knows of the rule, and those that do could use it to their advantage.

Though I've seen it come into play with larger leagues too.

I get why the rule is there...it isn't right if there is one team in a league that just kinda gives up, defaults an entire match, and that that team benefits from all those 6-0 sets in their standings. But I do think there needs to be more to the rule to prevent what you guys have gone through.

 

[Chelsie1]

How interesting! I am on two teams that have received full team defaults.
But first some background: There used to be a time when teams could default all courts to their hearts content without penalty. Why would they do this? Receiving a team default from another team-whose captain happens to be your friend-could send a team to Sectionals. It happened more than you know. In some 2 team leagues, with say 6 matches, one team would play and win 3 matches and the other team would default the remaining three. (Not to mention that, for example, that the winning team consisted of all 4.0s and the defaulting team of mostly 3.5s.) And those defaulted matches counted towards player eligibility. Straight to Sectionals . In larger leagues, the match was often the decider and if your friend's team defaulted enough to put you in first place, well hellooo Huntington. And so was introduced the team default rules-can't remember when they started, maybe mid-2000s.

2015 National Regs-2.03L ScoringofTeam Defaults. If a team defaults an entire team
match for any reason during round robin play, that team is ineligible to
continue play at that championship. All matches of the defaulting team
already played shall be null and void when determining standings but
will be used for ratings and advancement purposes. If all teams with a
mathematical chance to advance have played the defaulting team in
good faith, those matches shall stand as played when determining
standings. The Sectional Association may impose further penalties on
the defaulting team. (So that deals with District, Sectional and National Championships.)

2015 MAS Regulation-- 8b. A team cannot advance to championships if they are in a position to do so as a result of being the recipient of a
full team default. It is the coordinator’s responsibility to check for full team defaults when determining a team’s
eligibility to advance. If a team is advancing because they are the recipient of a full team default then all matches
played by the defaulting team must be removed from the standings of the round robin where the default occurred.
Matches will remain in Tennislink; the coordinator will manually adjust the standings prior to certifying advancing
teams.

Did they stop reading the MAS rules after the 1st sentence?

As written, the MAS rule needs work.

Back to me:

Team 1/- In first place by a substantial margin. One match remains. Received a team default mid-season. At the end of the season the coordinator will remove the results of the defaulting team for one round robin against all of the teams from the standings. After the standings are recalculated, minus all the results from one (1) round robin played by all teams against the defaulting team we would still be in first place and (G.W.) expect to be declared the winners. That's how it goes in these parts.

Team 2-In other parts...... Received a team default. Was told because we received a team default, we would not be able to advance if we came in first. Huh? We were offered the choice of taking the default and not advancing or rescheduling. Huh?

Winchester-They could have played a match with the 4 players-2 singles, one doubles and that would have been a legal match. Why wasn't the match played? Are you tied in individual wins as well? The tie-break order changed last year--individual wins, head-to-head, sets loss. A team with 2 full team defaults should not be allowed to go anywhere. That's a rule you might be able to help get introduced and passed. Certainly, there should be a penalty for repeated team defaults. Play the rescheduled match.

 

[Topaz]

Chelsie, excellent explanation, and yes, I also agree the rule (and a few others) need some work.

Where do you play in MAS?

 

[Spokewench]

This is incorrect

I play in a 4.5 men's 18 and over league in the MidAtlantic section in the Shenandoah area. There are only 2 teams. We had 8 matches scheduled. We won 3, they won 3, and they had full team defaults for 2 matches. 1 of the defaults they could get 4 guys to play (this is a 2 singles 3 dubs match format) and the other we showed up on sat as scheduled but the other team captain goofed and told his guys Sunday.

So final result was we win 5-3 right? WRONG according to usta. There is a rule that says a team cannot advance to districts if their winning record is a result of full team default. So the two defaults get taken out of the record, it is then 3-3, and we're behind on matches lost. Is it just me (and my team) or is that insane? It actually benefited them to default those matches.

If you really think about it, that rule makes it so if a team can't field it's best lineup, they should default. Or taking it even farther if you win the first match, default the rest and you win. (Keep in mind this is for a 2 team league)

Usta gave us the option to play one of the missed matches but I'm sure you know how difficult scheduling can be, field 8 guys on a weeks notice is rough.

So the other teams default is actually beneficial. Go USTA.

This is the rule with regard to teams that do a total team default. That team is ineligible to continue in the championship event, whether local league or state/section event). So, if there are two teams and one team does a total team default, they are ineligible to continue in advancement. Which should let the second place team (and only other team) advance to the next level.