Generating pace on a floating, slow paced, shot with a 1hbh

thatguymattin

Semi-Pro
Ah yes, I have this dilemma whereas it's difficult to generate a lot of pace on my backhand side if the shot received is a floater (such as if my opponent would chip back a fast serve). I see multiple options if a shot like that were to occur: run around the ball and hit with my forehand, slice the shot back, a topspin flick, or to try and flatten the shot out like Wawrinka. Oh, or I can try to hit it as an in the air running backhand or forehand, Nishikori-Monfils esque. What other options could I take, or rather, what are the optimal plays in that kind of situation? The shot doesn't necessarily have to be from a serve return - it can be just a slow paced ball on the backhand wing. If it's short, go for a wide and short angle?
 

SublimeTennis

Professional
Ah yes, I have this dilemma whereas it's difficult to generate a lot of pace on my backhand side if the shot received is a floater (such as if my opponent would chip back a fast serve). I see multiple options if a shot like that were to occur: run around the ball and hit with my forehand, slice the shot back, a topspin flick, or to try and flatten the shot out like Wawrinka. Oh, or I can try to hit it as an in the air running backhand or forehand, Nishikori-Monfils esque. What other options could I take, or rather, what are the optimal plays in that kind of situation? The shot doesn't necessarily have to be from a serve return - it can be just a slow paced ball on the backhand wing. If it's short, go for a wide and short angle?

If I'm understanding you correctly, first, you don't always have to generate pace, players are obsessed with pace, it's important but variety is more important, hit to where you put your opponent in a bad position. I love watching guys who kill it 80mph forehands shot after shot getting killed by an experienced player who knows how to win. Knowing how to win is so important, I see players who know how to win beat supposed killers all of the time, know how to put their opponent in uncomfortable positions, know how to close out.
 

achapa8807

Semi-Pro
Timing.

I would say timing and your preparation is going to be a factor in placing the ball where and how after facing a slow shot coming back. Letting the ball get into your impact zone with the proper set up will be very instrumental in your ball returning back to the opponents side.

I've come up against a few different types of players, some with speed and some with floaters and spins. I wouldn't go after everything but instead generate enough pace where you have control and are comfortable hitting the shot. I can put a lot of spin and pace with my OHBH but I don't always go for it, just depends on the occasion.
 

thatguymattin

Semi-Pro
If I'm understanding you correctly, first, you don't always have to generate pace, players are obsessed with pace, it's important but variety is more important, hit to where you put your opponent in a bad position. I love watching guys who kill it 80mph forehands shot after shot getting killed by an experienced player who knows how to win. Knowing how to win is so important, I see players who know how to win beat supposed killers all of the time, know how to put their opponent in uncomfortable positions, know how to close out.
I understand that, but what I'm saying is generating very little pace can work against you, just like having little variety, and being predictable. I know I can chip it, slice the ball so it goes away from their body, and other things. Really, it depends on the situation. Thinking about it, a better preparation, in order to get into a good position, would help.
 

thatguymattin

Semi-Pro
One thing I noticed about myself is that while exchanging shots, it feels like there's a lot of time before the ball gets back. I'm not sure what to do other than to get into position via tennis geometry. I don't feel like there's enough time to attack the net, maybe enough time to play aggressive and hit while a bit past the baseline. But then if they hit a wide angle and/or a shot that is deep, I'm kinda screwed because then I'd be hitting behind my body (hitting leaning backwards) or being forced to slice. So being able to generate pace is important if you're in an aggressive position, somewhat committed.
 

Enga

Hall of Fame
Yeah, you dont need to always hit with pace, but it helps to know how.

I think its really about confidence. Wait for the ball to reach your the height youre co fortable with, and just rip it. It also helps if you plant your feet first. With confidence, you can swing fast and put the ball into a corner off a short ball.

Just today I was playing doubles, focusing mostly on hitting sharp crosscourt slice and safe topspin when necessary. I ended up feeling very confident off the 1hbh wing, building points with my backhand, being consistent, and when they gave me a short ball, I put it away with a big crosscourt shot. As you can guess, I was pretty proud of that.

But I cant imagine always doing that, its about situation. If your feet are planted and its a shortball, go for it. If not, consider a slice approach or a slow loopy topspin shot to retreat back to the baseline.
 
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jga111

Hall of Fame
Ah yes, I have this dilemma whereas it's difficult to generate a lot of pace on my backhand side if the shot received is a floater (such as if my opponent would chip back a fast serve)

I agree with previous comments regarding "variety" - you don't have to hit it hard. I call these shots 'containing' shots and also try to place them as best as possible to make players with bad footwork pay. It's amazing seeing how just hitting a delicate ball to a player near their feet or just behind them makes them capitulate into thin air (well not quite but you know what I mean).

But why do you find it difficult to generate pace off your BH with a low-paced ball? I would suggest that you try to improve on this because as part of the 'variety', ripping it from such a ball is also a good option. Points to consider:

* Is your weight transferring onto your front foot?
* Are you prepping early enough so that you're ready to swing forward just before the ball bounces?
* Is your shoulder rotation in use - i.e coiling/uncoiling - ideally you want your off-arm rotated round as far back as you can before you uncoil with spin and power?
 

thatguymattin

Semi-Pro
I agree with previous comments regarding "variety" - you don't have to hit it hard. I call these shots 'containing' shots and also try to place them as best as possible to make players with bad footwork pay. It's amazing seeing how just hitting a delicate ball to a player near their feet or just behind them makes them capitulate into thin air (well not quite but you know what I mean).

But why do you find it difficult to generate pace off your BH with a low-paced ball? I would suggest that you try to improve on this because as part of the 'variety', ripping it from such a ball is also a good option. Points to consider:

* Is your weight transferring onto your front foot?
* Are you prepping early enough so that you're ready to swing forward just before the ball bounces?
* Is your shoulder rotation in use - i.e coiling/uncoiling - ideally you want your off-arm rotated round as far back as you can before you uncoil with spin and power?

A lot of my shots are dependent on what kind of shot my opponent makes. Whether their ball is well paced, or not, somewhat controls how fast I swing at the ball. I've been trying to improve on my racquet head speed to keep things a bit more consistent though. But I think it's harder for me on my backhand side because I think the preparation changes.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Feet sideways, shoulder's turned so part of your back faces the opponent, full backswing, let it rip low to high with topspin. Might practice a few self feeds too.
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
My strategy is to hit my forehand whenever possible. So if I get a slow paced ball to my backhand side, hitting a backhand never even enters my mind. If the pace is slow and it sits up, it is likely going to be easy to put away or hit a really aggressive approach shot. Unless you are just trying to practice your backhand, I see no reason to hit a less comfortable shot when you could take control of the point.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Slow high ball lands in mid NML 2' from the sidelines, and your're gonna run around your backhand to hit a forehand?
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
Slow high ball lands in mid NML 2' from the sidelines, and your're gonna run around your backhand to hit a forehand?

If possible, yes. Depends on the pace and the angle off the court. Obviously if I can't get around it I won't. But if I can, I love that shot. So many options from there and you are sure to finish the point on your terms, one way or the other.
 

boramiNYC

Hall of Fame
Depends on the capability of your bh. But you want to be able to hit both dtl and angled cc. And you want to be able to mix them up and also disguise and hold your intention as long as possible. When your opponent cannot easily guess which way you're going, all you need is a accurate placement of either dtl or cc to elicit a defensive response with which you can choose to either come in and hit a volley winner or hit another forcing shot from an advantageous position.
 

RetroSpin

Hall of Fame
I'm not sure if the OP was asking how to generate pace off a slow ball or what is best tactically? Tactically, you don't want your opponent to get away with floating returns back. You might as well serve underhanded. The best way to stop it is to come in occassionally on your serve. Pick off sitters a few times and he will think twice about pushing it back.
 

thatguymattin

Semi-Pro
I'm not sure if the OP was asking how to generate pace off a slow ball or what is best tactically? Tactically, you don't want your opponent to get away with floating returns back. You might as well serve underhanded. The best way to stop it is to come in occassionally on your serve. Pick off sitters a few times and he will think twice about pushing it back.

It was mainly about generating pace off the sitter, but then tactics also came to mind after. The reason I asked was because a lot of people chip my first serves back, and they just float so long and end up being so short, so if I were to try to put it away, I'd need touch because it's so close to the net that if I were to do I full swing, it'd go back into the net... That's just one situation, but it's the most common one for me
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
You get anything mid NML on your backhand side, without pace, you slice your approach shot DTL 80% of the time deep and near the sidelines, as deep and as near as your skill allows.
Around 4.0, your approach shots should land within 3' of the sidelines and 3' from the baseline.
Then you take 2 steps forwards to just inside your own service line, awaiting a pass or lob attempt.
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
You get anything mid NML on your backhand side, without pace, you slice your approach shot DTL 80% of the time deep and near the sidelines, as deep and as near as your skill allows.
Around 4.0, your approach shots should land within 3' of the sidelines and 3' from the baseline.
Then you take 2 steps forwards to just inside your own service line, awaiting a pass or lob attempt.

If you are going to do this, you better hit a strong slice. If it doesn't stay low and through the court, you are toast approaching to the forehand, especially if the slice sits up.
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
It was mainly about generating pace off the sitter, but then tactics also came to mind after. The reason I asked was because a lot of people chip my first serves back, and they just float so long and end up being so short, so if I were to try to put it away, I'd need touch because it's so close to the net that if I were to do I full swing, it'd go back into the net... That's just one situation, but it's the most common one for me

If they are really floating, you have time to get around it to your forehand and crush it. Problem solved.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
But title by OP is not about running around his backhand, it's about how to hit that backhand for a forcing shot or winner.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
If you slice a ball from mid NML to land within a box 3' from the sidelines and 3' from the baseline, the ball WILL skid, slide, and bounce to one side or the other.
Just physics at work, try it.
You DO know that approach shots are hit within 2' of the netcord, right? And they are not floaters.
 

thatguymattin

Semi-Pro
Well serve returns aren't always short. Sometimes they are deep into the court, but hang in the air for a while, so my opponent would have time to recover. And I don't think I can attack, with my current capabilities, if the ball acts that certain way. All I could really do is return it cross court or down the line, but in doing so, gives up my control in the rally.
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
Well if the question is that you are definitely hitting a backhand what do you do with it, the answer is this - deep cross court heavy topspin until your opponent is pushed back deep into the backhand corner and gives you a short ball that you can hit a forehand and put away. Baseliner tennis 101.
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
If you slice a ball from mid NML to land within a box 3' from the sidelines and 3' from the baseline, the ball WILL skid, slide, and bounce to one side or the other.
Just physics at work, try it.
You DO know that approach shots are hit within 2' of the netcord, right? And they are not floaters.

That shot does not exist at the 3.5-4.0 level. So yeah, maybe we should also recommend he hit a 2008 Nadal backhand angled off the court into the sideline seats. It'd be just as effective.

Tell a 3.5-4.0 guy to slice an approach shot to the opponents forehand and see how long they last. Lol.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Dumb to just slice an approach to opponent's FOREHAND side.
Much smarter to slice an approach to your opponent's BACKhand side, eh?
When I played Volleynets, I forced him to hit at least 15 wide backhand passing shots. Yes, he made 10 of them for clean winners, but he was once a winning 4.5 level player, and played for UC Davis's club team.
I hit maybe 3 total approach slices to his forehand side, and I think he won 2 of them.
 

BurnNotice

Rookie
Coil and uncoil. Set up properly (footwork) and just rip it to a cross court corner.

It's incredibly fun to do. Sometimes you'll shank it hard into the net or way out but if you set up right you can hit some amazing shots.
 

Shroud

Talk Tennis Guru
Ah yes, I have this dilemma whereas it's difficult to generate a lot of pace on my backhand side if the shot received is a floater (such as if my opponent would chip back a fast serve). I see multiple options if a shot like that were to occur: run around the ball and hit with my forehand, slice the shot back, a topspin flick, or to try and flatten the shot out like Wawrinka. Oh, or I can try to hit it as an in the air running backhand or forehand, Nishikori-Monfils esque. What other options could I take, or rather, what are the optimal plays in that kind of situation? The shot doesn't necessarily have to be from a serve return - it can be just a slow paced ball on the backhand wing. If it's short, go for a wide and short angle?

Weird. I wish I had this problem. Pace is something I can usually supply on the Bh side. My problem is to control the pace.

Post a vid but off the top of my head it sounds like you arent using your legs right on the bh.
 

Shroud

Talk Tennis Guru
That shot does not exist at the 3.5-4.0 level. So yeah, maybe we should also recommend he hit a 2008 Nadal backhand angled off the court into the sideline seats. It'd be just as effective.

Tell a 3.5-4.0 guy to slice an approach shot to the opponents forehand and see how long they last. Lol.

I'd be dumb enough to try it! If I hit the slice I am capable of I would come in on it for sure and yes to the FH side. My BH slice is better than my FH slice but look at the slice shots at 20sec and 30sec in this vid. I think I could win some points with those type of slice drives or at least set up some easy volleys:
 

thatguymattin

Semi-Pro
Well apparently generating pace is easy for me, being consistent with that pace is another story. I always imagined myself hitting very slowly, it's really just erratic and sloppy x.x ahhhh
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
Well apparently generating pace is easy for me, being consistent with that pace is another story. I always imagined myself hitting very slowly, it's really just erratic and sloppy x.x ahhhh

If you are going deep/too much pace, brush up the back of the ball more. This may involve a slightly more exaggerated grip and earlier preparation, but it really works. Don't slow your swing down just get more spin.

Also, add some lead to your racquet, it will slow that swing down a bit while not sacrificing pace.
 

thatguymattin

Semi-Pro
If you are going deep/too much pace, brush up the back of the ball more. This may involve a slightly more exaggerated grip and earlier preparation, but it really works. Don't slow your swing down just get more spin.

Also, add some lead to your racquet, it will slow that swing down a bit while not sacrificing pace.

Yeah, I'm hitting with relatively little spin. Just got a 95s, and I'm still adjusting to it, but it's interesting. I've already added about 3 grams in total to 3 and 9, but it still feels a little light since I'm used to using my Tour 97 330g haha

I've been working on net clearance and general fluidity with my strokes, just need more practice.

I just hate it when I'm setting up for a shot, and then launch the ball xD
 

RetroSpin

Hall of Fame
Yeah, I'm hitting with relatively little spin. Just got a 95s, and I'm still adjusting to it, but it's interesting. I've already added about 3 grams in total to 3 and 9, but it still feels a little light since I'm used to using my Tour 97 330g haha

I've been working on net clearance and general fluidity with my strokes, just need more practice.

I just hate it when I'm setting up for a shot, and then launch the ball xD


Options for a mid court sitter are driving it CC into the BH corner, going for the BH side T, slice or top DTL and coming in or drop shot. The lower the bounce, the more attractive hitting slice becomes.

Technique keys are to get up to the ball with proper footwork and balance, keep your level, ie don't stand up as you hit, keep a loose arm and keep your eyes on the ball through impact, ie don't peek. Driving it long sounds like you are maybe standing up as you hit it.

The pros put these balls away 100% of the time and make it look easy, but it is a skill you have to learn. Practicing with drop feeds is helpful.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Every pros spent months, hitting hundreds of high sitters a day, to learn a high percentage putway shot off the forehand side.
Lots of pros still don't have that mirror shot on their backhand side, so just push the ball deep DTL and be done with it.
 

10isMaestro

Semi-Pro
If I'm understanding you correctly, first, you don't always have to generate pace, players are obsessed with pace, it's important but variety is more important, hit to where you put your opponent in a bad position. I love watching guys who kill it 80mph forehands shot after shot getting killed by an experienced player who knows how to win. Knowing how to win is so important, I see players who know how to win beat supposed killers all of the time, know how to put their opponent in uncomfortable positions, know how to close out.

If you see 80mph forehands flying around the court, I must first note that it's starting to be a bit scary, although putting that 80mph forehand in a suitable target will prove to be a real challenge for the vast majority of recreational players -- that is, assuming they do hit that hard at times. Most people can't hit hard and remain passably accurate, unless they're fed balls at the right pace in their wheelhouse, so they'll hit big right into the hands of their opponent... And fast balls right into the hands of any good player means a very good shot will come back... So, yeah: hitting hard isn't everything. You should hit just hard enough to be annoying for your opponent -- i.e., if he doesn't get easily forward and can't control points too easily, it's good enough.

As for variety, it's not that important at all. The vast majority of people will vary their choices too much to mimic a genuinely random selection process and will adopt certain patterns without noticing. You can't really fool a good opponent with that and, if he's not that good, you probably do not need to fool him all that much. Even if you know you're going to strike a return off an out wide serve, if the serve is good, you're still going to make contact way out of position... no need to do much more.

What is important, however, is to select an appropriate degree of difficulty in trying to annoy your opponent. Hitting harder, take balls off the air or on the rise, etc. are all ways to take time away from your opponent -- which can be valuable. It also happens to be the set of decisions that are the toughest, most technically demanding to implement. You need a much, much better forehand to be able to hit on the rise or strike a drive volley so that you catch your opponent out of position more easily than it would to change direction more often to make the same opponent run more. If you want a good rule of thumb, try to limiting your mistakes (go cross-court almost all the time, for instance) or playing more balls into your opponent's weakest wing before forcing them to run and trying to take time away from them. Most amateurs will have trouble with these two simple guidelines and it will have the advantage of being way easier to make happen for you.
 

10isMaestro

Semi-Pro
Every pros spent months, hitting hundreds of high sitters a day, to learn a high percentage putway shot off the forehand side.
Lots of pros still don't have that mirror shot on their backhand side, so just push the ball deep DTL and be done with it.

You don't need to hit as good a shot as them with your backhand, ergo you don't need as much practice as them. While you can technically learn how to hit a suitable putaway shot on high backhand side floaters without inducing into excessive practice, you do have a point: hitting a simple shot, conceding some ground, therefore trying to reset the point, would be doable right now and easily for more people -- and might not prove to be much less effective in the long run.
 

SublimeTennis

Professional
If you see 80mph forehands flying around the court, I must first note that it's starting to be a bit scary, although putting that 80mph forehand in a suitable target will prove to be a real challenge for the vast majority of recreational players -- that is, assuming they do hit that hard at times. Most people can't hit hard and remain passably accurate, unless they're fed balls at the right pace in their wheelhouse, so they'll hit big right into the hands of their opponent... And fast balls right into the hands of any good player means a very good shot will come back... So, yeah: hitting hard isn't everything. You should hit just hard enough to be annoying for your opponent -- i.e., if he doesn't get easily forward and can't control points too easily, it's good enough.

As for variety, it's not that important at all. The vast majority of people will vary their choices too much to mimic a genuinely random selection process and will adopt certain patterns without noticing. You can't really fool a good opponent with that and, if he's not that good, you probably do not need to fool him all that much. Even if you know you're going to strike a return off an out wide serve, if the serve is good, you're still going to make contact way out of position... no need to do much more.

What is important, however, is to select an appropriate degree of difficulty in trying to annoy your opponent. Hitting harder, take balls off the air or on the rise, etc. are all ways to take time away from your opponent -- which can be valuable. It also happens to be the set of decisions that are the toughest, most technically demanding to implement. You need a much, much better forehand to be able to hit on the rise or strike a drive volley so that you catch your opponent out of position more easily than it would to change direction more often to make the same opponent run more. If you want a good rule of thumb, try to limiting your mistakes (go cross-court almost all the time, for instance) or playing more balls into your opponent's weakest wing before forcing them to run and trying to take time away from them. Most amateurs will have trouble with these two simple guidelines and it will have the advantage of being way easier to make happen for you.

Who said they were recreational players? I think I agree with most of this post, I can see that this person doesn't know what I mean by "How to win", many have great serves, fore and backhands, hit hard, but don't have a clue how to close, how to win, it's art not science, I have knee problems, sometimes my mobility is down, yet I still win because I analyze how to beat my opponent, things like figuring out if they are nervous, coming in mid court and taking the ball in air to shake them up, actually I can't really explain it fully. Bottom line is if you saw my rally, then some of my opponents you'd think they'd wipe me off the court, but they don't, I know how to win. OK everyone wants to hit monster serves, not always necessary as noted above sometimes you are giving them pace to use against you, so what about spinning a shot off the court then coming forward, I can't explain it, maybe it's just experience, but playing tennis is SO MUCH MORE than getting the fundamentals down, it's psychology.
 

Shroud

Talk Tennis Guru
Doug, is that CJ? Haven't seen him around in 3 months.
Yep. I mentioned hitting with him in another thread. He said I was the perfect hitting partner because I was hitting high balls and he had to work on that.

But he said my slices were the toughest. When I said that I said something like "yeah no one hits slice anymore" but he said he played many slicers and that mine were "different". I have some vid of me hitting one that he totally whifs on.

Long long story but my racket is strung with kevlar/revolve at 86/70lbs and has an RA of 70, so there is zero ball pocketing and well the slice IS different than I think most slice.

CJ is good and you see him mis-timing the bh on both of those slices.

He said he was ducking you. Something about oxy something and money...
 
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LeeD

Bionic Poster
We've only played doubles against each other maybe 5 times, with him coming out on the bottom each and every time. He's usually the weakest of any foursome, mostly involving Nate, Sonny, and some other top 4.0 level players. Sonny plays 5.0 singles for Harbor Point in Tiburon. At 6'2", his serve is weak, and he needs to groove too much for effective doubles.
 

Shroud

Talk Tennis Guru
We've only played doubles against each other maybe 5 times, with him coming out on the bottom each and every time. He's usually the weakest of any foursome, mostly involving Nate, Sonny, and some other top 4.0 level players. Sonny plays 5.0 singles for Harbor Point in Tiburon. At 6'2", his serve is weak, and he needs to groove too much for effective doubles.

Yeah I played dubs with him a long while ago and we got clobbered by some old old old dudes with no pace and sliced everything....

We were just hitting with abandon and it was a slugfest- no serving.

I don't really remember but I think I lost everytime I played against you in dubs. At least when Matt Lin was your partner but I think maybe the others too. But hey it doesnt count when your racket it strung at 20lbs like mine was...
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Dude, like it or not, we're peers.
We both lose to Papa Mango most of the time in singles.
Not sure how you'd do against Scotty, but I'm about 25-15 ahead, with him catching up this year by 3-5 sets.
Against Asia, I"m 5-0.
Against Azaria, it's 4-4 once, 5-4 once, and we had to stop.
Lefty John and I are close to dead even.
Ming beat me last Friday 3-6, 2 sets, but that was after we played 3 sets of doubles. We're about 50-30 in sets.
 

Shroud

Talk Tennis Guru
Out of those I only played with mango Scotty and john

Scotty would either bagel me or the reverse. Doubt it would be close scores.

I would rather play against lefty john.

One day we will play some singles and you can make me grunt like neso serving

Anyhow sorry op for mucking up your thread
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Sorry, OP for the derail.
But I did give the only good reply to "how to hit a hard ball off a floaty ball to your backhand side".
Doug, we're close, as are all the guys we've mentioned. Papa has the advantage of unreal speed.
 
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