Generation: Desperation

[travlerajm]

But Tsits is almost 23 though. You talk as if being 22-23 is a crippling age.

They say the brain keeps developing until you hit 30.

 

[toth]

Fedal can't stop Novak.

So their desperate fans want Nextgen to take from Novak what Fedal can't, and attack NextGen under false concerns about the game.

If Fedal were winnning what Novak is, they would be very pleased with the state of the affairs.

Disgusting hypocrisy.

I dont agree with ,,Federer schould win against Djokovic, they are big rivals" theory.
I do think young champions schould be Djokovic's (and Nadal's) big rivals.
Always were young champions, only since about a decade not.

 

[toth]

More like Nole has gotten better since his return from injury in 2018 and has learned how to consistently bring his A game in the big points. Think about this: normally we'd have a whole highlight reel of Djoker murdering his rackets by this time of year, because he tends to get angry when he drops the ball on crucial points. But he's learned how to consistently enter the zone and fight for his life in the crunch. The next gen players haven't played long enough to understand their mechanisms of doing that and being able to reproduce it time and time again.

Why the 22-30 aged top players hav not played enough?(???)

 

[mike danny]

In one thing, today's young tennis players have it harder than their predecessors in the past - thanks to modern medicine and rehabilitation, the 30s tennis players are stronger than Lendl, Sampras and others former players in their 30s. It is harder for 20s tennis players to break through the wall, which was (until recently) defended by 3 ATG players.

The self-confidence factor is forgotten in this debate. Sampras once said that the key impetus for his spectacular career was winning over Lendl at the 1990 US Open. Today, the 20s tennis players are in a situation where they beat one of the Big 3 at the Grand Slam, but lose to another member of the Big 3. The gained impulse is thus lost.

Nope, BS.

The guts in 2004-mid 2016 had it tougher than today's losers. Not ecen gonna bother reading the entirety of your post.

 

[accidental]

10 years ago this is what a 23 year old vs a 24 year old looked like

In contrast, this is the final set tiebreak of the biggest match we’ve had so far between 2 #nextgen players

 

[Enceladus]

Nope, BS.

The guts in 2004-mid 2016 had it tougher than today's losers. Not ecen gonna bother reading the entirety of your post.

This sentence proves that you are biased.

 

[mike danny]

This sentence proves that you are biased.

So you think it's tougher now than when the Big 3 were at their best? LMAO.

 

[Aabye5]

Last year we saw a match between a NextGen and Thiem...can we see a second match between 2 NextGen?
....
If they can make it there, they'll make it anywhere
It's up to you....New York, New York

 

[jussumman]

It's hopeless. Everyone has ran out of patience. There's no more faith in the NextGen.

Well we can see Grandpa Federer has reached a limit in his Slam count, so we can expect the other 2 to continue to dominate for another 3-4 years before they hit the wall. 2024 the Lost Generation should start winnning regularly.

 

[blablavla]

So many post on here have been just TEARING into Shapo, Tsits, Med, Zvev, FAA. Acting like some 22 year old should be able to match one of the GOATs for mental toughness on big points and calling them mugs when they can’t do it.

PLEASE people, these dudes are loaded with talent. Tsits alone was hitting groundies as good as prime Nadal and Djokovic during the French Open. Shapo was bombing 135+ mph first serves at a 70%+ rate today. They have the skills, they just aren’t there mentally yet.

Yet I see fools on here burying them because at 22 they don’t play big points like Djokovic. Please, FEDERER doesn’t play big points like Djokovic. If he did he’d have 23-24 slams right now. And that’s the mature version of Fed, not some 22-year old. So spare me the weak era nonsense, stop putting your desperate hopes of stopping the Inevitable on these kids and killing them when they can’t deliver. They’re almost certainly not going to mature into big 3 types but at least 2 of these guys could be better than Murray once they mature.

Didn't we wait for Dimitrov, Nishikori, Goffin, Raonic to mature? where are they?
Didn't we wait for Thiem, NK, Edmund to mature? where are they?

P.S.
Medvedev, Berrettini, Garin, Khachanov = 25 years old
A Zverev, Hurckaz, Coric, T Paul = 24 years old

Nole at 24 years old, that was 2011
I hope there is no need to remind you about Nadal's achievements when he was 24 years old

 

[blablavla]

My comment is surveying things over a longer period.

But if we do look at this year, French open provides the best example of the classic big 4 roadblock in majors.

ok, how do you explain the next genners collectively failing at taking down an injured Novak in Australia?
can you imagine an injured player in 2010 - 2015 to win so many matches and take the trophy home?
or even vs the 'weak vaccuum era mugs' like Safin, Hewitt, Roddick?

 

[blablavla]

Maybe if you didn’t watch him play at all

performance sport is about results
didn't 22 years old Nole have a GS already?
or didn't 24 years old Nole dominated the 2011 like there was no tomorrow?

tell me which next genners have comparable results to 'weak vaccuum era mugs' like Safin, Hewitt, Roddick, JC Ferrero, Kuerten etc.

 

[mxmx]

Some care and attention needs to be paid to the unique circumstances that this current brigade is facing.

Anyone 19-26 has never had it worse in terms of what they are trying to get through.

It's an era where we have 3 of the best 10 players ever active simultaneously. Not one great player and a ruling class below them, but three guys all soon to be sitting on 20 majors EACH They have an aura about them, and that counts in a mental game like tennis. They represent the biggest mental roadblock we have ever seen for up and coming generation(s).

I know Fed is struggling right now, but If we look back starting around 2010, Fed was the first to start the ageing process in earnest. These absolute top guys with the most money and resources are in a better position than any previous era of ATGs to capitalise on all the medical and technical innnovations available to combat ageing. Not surprisingly they have made all the right moves.

Don't get me wrong, all three have declined physically in marked ways, but not nearly as much as previous generations have. Nothing like what happened with Agassi having serious back related mobility problems deep into his 30s or Sampras physical ability changing totally by 30. The youngsters coming up now didn't get any sense of blood in the water to spur them on like previous generations had. Fed, Nadal and Djokovic have had help that previous generations didn't.

But the physical side of things is only a small part of it. What is even more shocking to me is the mental aspect. This generation of Nadal, Fed and Djokovic is figuring out a way to continually manufacture hunger and desire at an age when even the most competitive open era ATGs have started to flame out mentally. How they are doing this is beyond me, and it is another marker of how special they are. People will say "they are doing it to vulture majors" which is not correct. Take Murray for example..... hard to see him getting near a major final again, but he is also still fighting like crazy, doing anything he can surgically and otherwise for the chance to keep going just because he has the sheer need for competition and obsession with playing. He has a beautiful wife, family and more money than he knows what to do with waiting for him when he is sick of playing tennis.

The young players have also been halted by the pandemic and the rankings protections afforded to the absolute best who are already on top. I'm mentioning this in passing because it's a recent development, and doesn't explain the last five years, but it's a factor all the same. Most of the young guys who could help overthrow the big guys are probably a year behind in terms of draw protection.

It's never been harder to break into the absolute highest echelons of the game. Tennis is a truly global sport now, and besides the roadblock at the absolute top of the game, the depth of competition at the peer level is tremendously tough for these younger guys as well. There isn't a "new balls please" generation of 5-6 players. They are HEAPS of them to look out for in the draw. They are under siege from pretty much all angles.

Another thing that is kind of being overlooked is that Nadal, Federer and Djokovic had the benefit of making their major win breakthrough without having to beat multiple older multiple slam winners en route to their first major. Djokovic had it toughest having to beat Federer en route to his first major win, but then he got a final against Tsonga. All three won their first majors not having to beat multiple major winners for the title match.

Discounting special circumstances like defaults and withdrawals (ie Thiem's first major) a young player now in a position to break through is probably going to have to go through something like this:

QF: Their best peer or someone younger (ie Zverev, Tsitsipas, Shap, FAA etc etc)

SF: someone a bit older and better than them or worst case scenario, the big 2 guy from their side of the draw (Medvedev, Nadal, Djokovic, Fed, Berry etc etc)

F: the OTHER big 3 guy (Nadal, Djok, Fed).

We are somewhat blessed to be witnessing the struggle these young guys are having trying to break through with pretty much everything against them. It's going to make it even sweeter when someone like a Berry, FAA or Tsitsipas breaks through. Once they get there, it's going to be tough, as the peer competition is going to be extremely deep (similar to what started happening in the women's game four years ago).

Question is though. How would a "hypothetical young and upcoming Federer" have fared against the current big3 (himself included) in the last decade and especially more recently?

 

[Subway Tennis]

ok, how do you explain the next genners collectively failing at taking down an injured Novak in Australia?
can you imagine an injured player in 2010 - 2015 to win so many matches and take the trophy home?
or even vs the 'weak vaccuum era mugs' like Safin, Hewitt, Roddick?

Difficult question. I'm probably the wrong person to ask, because I prefer not to use weak or strong era/field theories when evaluating players.

I do think there are weaker and/or stronger eras, but don't weight them to the extent that the best players from any era should be penalised based on the period they were playing in. There are far too many external factors that change depending on the different generations.

Im being a bit long-winded here, but what I'm trying to say is that I don't think Federer should be discredited for winning when he did, and I think the same courtesy should be applied to Novak and also Nadal. These guys are taking their chances and won because they are very good tennis players IMO. The perceived weakness / strength of the field can be a factor, but it's too cruel to penalise a player based on when they took their chances.

Dont get me wrong, my approach also has some cruelty to it. There isn't room for me to rate Andy Murray as highly as I would like to using my approach (even though from a personal standpoint he is my second favourite player of this era). It's rough on him given that if he were playing in the early 2000s I think he may have had an even better career than he has had playing in the Big 4 era.

 

[mike danny]

Question is though. How would a "hypothetical young and upcoming Federer" have fared against the current big3 (himself included) in the last decade and especially more recently?

Very well. Would send them into retirement.

 

[Subway Tennis]

Question is though. How would a "hypothetical young and upcoming Federer" have fared against the current big3 (himself included) in the last decade and especially more recently?

Federer, Lendl, Mac, Connors, Borg, Laver, Rosewall..... all these guys would have figured out a way to win in any era, but not sure at what age in this current time, and how much their fortunes would have changed.

The fun thought experiment is to work out how they would have done it.

The first thing Rosewall would have done is experimented with extended length racquets!

 

[mxmx]

Doesn't anybody on here notice how much longer the GOATs of each sport have been dominating than in eras past? LeBron James is 36 and still blowing everybody off the court. Lionel Messi (34) and Cristiano Ronaldo (36) have been dominating soccer for years. And we have Fedalovic being a lock for at least every grand slam QF even at their geriatric ages of 39, 35 and 34. Even in combat sports like MMA, nobody below the age of 27 holds a UFC championship, with the vast majority of current champions being in their mid-thirties and many of the strong title contenders in each division being close to or in their 40s. It seems like TTW posters are undervaluing/overlooking the importance of modern medicine, recovery, and training in terms of an athlete's longevity. Look at how much better surgical procedures have gotten, especially those who are successful enough to take advantage of the best medical practitioners' crafts out there. Hell, look at how much better our shoes have gotten.

The biggest reason why no college-age fledgling has taken the baton from the geriatric thirty-somethings on their way to retirement in the sport of tennis is because with athletes' bodies holding up to competition much longer than before, experience in tough situations is way more important than it used to be. This same trend can be seen in every sport. So are the "nextgens" of every sport all just useless mugs that should go back to futures, or D-leagues, or whatever? I think not.

Granted, that's not to say that Tsits or Shapo couldn't have played better in the big moments in their most recent encounters with Djoker. Or any other time when the next gen have gotten violated by the big 3 even when it looked like they had their chances. But the old-heads have an iron grip on those big moments because they've been in them countless times and they have gotten past the point of feeling a bunch of pressure in them. Especially Djokovic, because like it or not, he's the hungriest player of the big 3, if not of all time. Normally, this wouldn't matter as much when your body is giving way in your late 20s or early 30s like past GOATs. But when you have the experience and a body that'll let you put that into motion somewhat, you're dangerous. 33 is the new 23 in sports, you've seen it here. Especially for the athletes that really want it.

The issue for the nexters is more a mental aspect than a physical one.

 

[Fedforever]

Sorry, but if you've spent the last ten years discrediting players like Roddick and Hewitt because you wanted to diss on Federer then you don't get to claim the Next Gen as mighty men.

The general public can look at Roddick and Hewitt's records and see that those guys were making Slam semis and Finals consistently even if they did get beaten by Federer in the end. Why should they look at the likes of Zverev and Thiem and see them as their equals? It's one thing that these guys can't beat Djokovic in a Final - how come none of Tsitsi, Meds or Zverev could even make the semis at Wimbledon?

 

[Arak]

The positive point is that, when the last of the big3 retires, we will go into a WTA era, where anyone can win a slam and no one dominates. It’s more fun this way due to the uncertainty and unpredictability, even though the game level will suffer.

 

[NatF]

Can't believe there's still people defending #NextGen lol.

 

[blablavla]

Can't believe there's still people defending #NextGen lol.

how else can you claim that Nole is the mightiest human that ever touched a tennis racket?

 

[NatF]

how else can you claim that Nole is the mightiest human that ever touched a tennis racket?

Better to use 2011 for that or some of his 2015-2016 performances.

 

[Fedforever]

Fedal can't stop Novak.

So their desperate fans want Nextgen to take from Novak what Fedal can't, and attack NextGen under false concerns about the game.

If Fedal were winnning what Novak is, they would be very pleased with the state of the affairs.

Disgusting hypocrisy.

Of course we'd be pleased. It wouldn't hide the fact that a 40 year old being able to beat Top 10 players 15 years younger than him would say nothing good about the state of those players.

 

[BallBasher247]

The issue for the nexters is more a mental aspect than a physical one.

That's what the last part of the post you quoted talks about. The mental issues the next gen are encountering are due to lack of match experience, the fact that Nadalovic are still fit which means they have more than just experience keeping them relevant, and the fact that this is the first generation of sport where the up-and-coming athletes can't really "smell the blood and taste the weakness" of their predecessors like in the past; this affects you psychologically as a player because you know you're gonna have to redline the entire time you're playing to beat ATGs that are still in the game, both tactically and physically. Once the physical conditioning of sporting elites like Nadalovic, LeBron, CP3, Messi, etc begins to fade, the younger generation will take over and probably dominate well into their 30s and maybe til their 40s, since that's the trend of all sports now.

 

[Quaichang]

Cilic and Delpo are only 32!

It's still really funny that the only Major a player born after 1990 was able to win happened because the Big 3 didn't compete/got freak DQd.

Zverev and Thiem both doing their best to lose the final was just the cherry on top.

And Thiem has been a shadow of himself since winning his first GS

 

[NoleIsBoat]

WHat's the point of this response. Trying to take shots at Fed's opponents? Two of those guys beat Sampras to win their first slams. They managed to beat a goat candidate while in their 20s (or was Hewitt 19? I don't remember) Why were those two able to do it yet nobody from the past 10 years has been able?

Tsitsipas has 2 slam wins over big 3
Thiem has 3

also Djokovic is better than Sampras at an older age so it’s harder to beat him.

 

[NoleIsBoat]

Fedal can't stop Novak.

So their desperate fans want Nextgen to take from Novak what Fedal can't, and attack NextGen under false concerns about the game.

If Fedal were winnning what Novak is, they would be very pleased with the state of the affairs.

Disgusting hypocrisy.

Spot on
When Fed vultured slams and Nadal USOs in 2017-2018 there was no talk of “tennis dead”, only rejoice and praise at their amazing longevity.

Now Djokovic is showing even better longevity, we get all this nonsense hat nextgen sucks and tennis is doomed, simply because he is taking their place as the greatest ever.

 

[NoleIsBoat]

Can't believe there's still people defending #NextGen lol.

I can’t believe there’s still people trolling and thinking Djokovic is playing garbage tennis somehow.

 

[Kralingen]

Spot on
When Fed vultured slams and Nadal USOs in 2017-2018 there was no talk of “tennis dead”, only rejoice and praise at their amazing longevity.

Now Djokovic is showing even better longevity, we get all this nonsense hat nextgen sucks and tennis is doomed, simply because he is taking their place as the greatest ever.

Well, there was a lot of talk of it in media and at least on other sites. I think the fair fans from all 3 sides acknowledge it, but a distinction to make is that they were mainly discussing LostGen’s failures - Tsitsipas/Medvedev/Zverev/Berrettini were not Slam contending relevant players in 2017-18.

 

[Phoenix1983]

Muggens actually make tennis less exciting to the point some of us would watch and post much less. Naturally, you'd like the discontent ones to leave so you have free reign to gloat forever, indeed. Why bother when novack goat is the answer to all questions.

Perfectly said.

 

[Phoenix1983]

Mark Philippoussis
Marat Safin
Andy Roddick
Lleyton Hewitt

Yes, 2 of whom had beaten Sampras in a slam final, and another one had already won a slam. So Federer usurped three proven champions, unlike the young gen of today, who can't beat anyone.

 

[blablavla]

Well, there was a lot of talk of it in media and at least on other sites. I think the fair fans from all 3 sides acknowledge it, but a distinction to make is that they were mainly discussing LostGen’s failures - Tsitsipas/Medvedev/Zverev/Berrettini were not Slam contending relevant players in 2017-18.

ask Fed fans on this site, I know quite some that aren't shy to admit that old man had no business in winning slams and getting to #1 in 2017 - 2018
the weakest era began before a bit earlier than 2017 and is still happening

 

[NoleIsBoat]

Yes, 2 of whom had beaten Sampras in a slam final, and another one had already won a slam. So Federer usurped three proven champions, unlike the young gen of today, who can't beat anyone.

Roddick, Hewitt, Blake, Agassi, Nalbandian, Davydenko, Safin all had 1 slam win combined over 2004-2007 Federer.

 

[Phoenix1983]

Roddick, Hewitt, Blake, Agassi, Nalbandian, Davydenko, Safin all had 1 slam win combined over 2004-2007 Federer.

Er, because he was far too good for them. But 4 of them had won slams previously - thus Federer proved he could beat seasoned champions in this supposed weak era. None of the youngsters today have proven they can beat any existing champs - this is the true weak era.

 

[NoleIsBoat]

Er, because he was far too good for them. But 4 of them had won slams previously - thus Federer proved he could beat seasoned champions in this supposed weak era. None of the youngsters today have proven they can beat any existing champs - this is the true weak era.

Thiem has 2 slam wins over Djokovic and 1 over Nadal
Tsitsipas has 1 slam win over Federer and 1 over Nadal

Those as well as Medvedev and Zverev have lots of BO3 wins too.

 

[Phoenix1983]

Thiem has 2 slam wins over Djokovic and 1 over Nadal
Tsitsipas has 1 slam win over Federer and 1 over Nadal

Those as well as Medvedev and Zverev have lots of BO3 wins too.

I was talking about beating them to win slams, child.

 

[Krish0608]

Mark Philippoussis
Marat Safin
Andy Roddick
Lleyton Hewitt

Yes. They have 5 slams among them. That’s solid.

 

[NoleIsBoat]

I was talking about beating them to win slams, child.

Each time they defeated a big3, they had to face another one after

Hewitt only faced Sampras in his run
Roddick faced no ATGs for his slam

Both guys would also have 0 slams if they peaked in the golden era of 2008- rather than the 01-06 vacuum.

 

[Phoenix1983]

Each time they defeated a big3, they had to face another one after

Hewitt only faced Sampras in his run
Roddick faced no ATGs for his slam

Both guys would also have 0 slams if they peaked in the golden era of 2008- rather than the 01-06 vacuum.

Safin and Hewitt beat Sampras in a slam final. None of the youngsters of today would've done that, come on now.