Get ready for the rankings war-ITF creating World Tennis Number for 2020. College coaches use WTN or UTR?

[jcgatennismom]

https://www.worldtennisnumber.com/en/faq https://www.itftennis.com/news/308289.aspx?utm_campaign=1022280_THW - This Week - 08/07/2019&utm_medium=email&utm_source=emailtwocircles&dm_i=4OYA,LWSO,3HGFRL,2KG48,1
Some interesting quotes from above:
The ITF recognises the potential of the World Tennis Number to assist in the entry process of ITF Circuit events, including events on the World Tennis Tour. This will be based on analysis of the appropriate data in due course and be subject to approval by the respective ITF Committees and the ITF Board of Directors.
How will the World Tennis Number be calculated?
The World Tennis Number will be powered by a well-tested and objective mathematical calculation. It is based on the player’s performance in matches relative to the strength of their opponent.
The principles behind its calculation will be published for all players to see.

Quote from USTA CEO:
“One of the USTA's top priorities is to elevate all aspects of the tennis player’s experience, regardless of their age, background or skill level. As a nation with one of the largest tennis player communities on the planet, the USTA constantly strives to utilise best-in-class technology to improve products for the needs of players and fans. We believe the new World Tennis Number platform will foster relationships, increase opportunities to play and connect US players with the global community.”


Note:The ITF has been talking about a WTN since March 2018. ClubSpark will develop digital platform
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

[jcgatennismom]

ITF is juggling a lot of balls-a contested race for its Presidency, turf war with ATP(?), the issue of data sales to betting sites, unhappy ITF players resulting in a partial reversal of its Transition Tour, players and fans unhappy with the Davis Cup changes, and now on top of all that, the organization is taking on UTR. Do tennis orgs want to grow tennis or just self-destruct?

That said, there is a good argument for the generator of data to keep the data and create its own ranking rather than let a commercial enterprise scrape or import it and make $ off it.
An ITF generated WTN and profile could:
Eliminate duplicate names for same person-UTR has too many of them esp for foreign players who may have 4 legal names and UTR may have many combinations of some or all of them on its site.
Display correct nationality of players-UTR lets players create or claim their own profile and many show US nationality for players who play ITFs for another country
Have data standards that meet European privacy standard which are higher than US
More complete data including more national adult and junior results from multiple nations
Enable more international play as each nation would not have its own rating system

UTR currently includes:
all junior ITF and then ATP/ITF world results
all ITA college results imported from R2Sports (which is not all results-missing some consolation results-probably be better for 19/20 with R2Sports tweaks worked out)
Tennislink tournaments
Events held on UTR platform including many prize $ events, ITA summer circuits
Many USTA rec league results
Some US high school results
national and international results for juniors and adults from selected foreign countries-many countries dont have an agreement with UTR-with ITF and European privacy rules, those countries might provide those results for WTN number esp if ITF provides the digital platform.

The biggest question is what results will be included in WTN calculation. One of the candidates for ITF president Dave Miley, former ITF director of development with 25 years of experience with ITF, wants to include US college results. He has a 7 point manifesto, and this is what he said about ITF global rating system ( aka WTN):
" Introduce an ITF global rating system for tennis that can be used effectively:
* As a ranking system for high level players that includes not only junior and entry level WTT (World Tour Tennis) events, but also other verified events such as US collegiate results
* As a tool to determine entry and acceptance to higher-level professional events and to reduce the cost of playing international junior and professional tennis"

The above sounds like a great idea-would be great for college players from all nations to get into entry level pro events based on their college results instead of relying mainly on wild cards or on the hope they will get in as an alternate the first times they play before they earn any ATP or ITF world points. There was a recent US future where an UTR 8 got in the Qualis b/c last year that player had defeated a UTR 6 in a Quali and had earned a single ITF world point. In other countries UTR 10s may get in multiple Qualis even though they may get bageled in 1st rd. There are often much better US collegiate players on alternate lists for many US Future Qualis. There are US collegians UTR 13+ that dont get in Qualis without WCs.

The current ITF President who is running again is David Haggerty, very unpopular with US junior players and parents after he oversaw a major change to US jr schedule and changes to the National Clays and Hardcourts reducing draws a few years back as USTA President. Ignoring protests, his leadership pushed through changes which were reversed later. Do we see a pattern here?!!! A leader who doesnt get input from all the stakeholders or just doesnt listen, doesnt consider the consequences of changes, and then just reverses them after they blow up and expects to go on business as usual without a thought for the players negatively affected.

Best Case Scenario for WTN-more results worldwide with more accurate profiles, less duplication, and the ability to look at big trends in tennis without violating individual privacy. European club results are included, and US collegians with a WTN based off college results are able to enter European club and prize $ events as well as entry level pro circuits based on initial WTN from college results . Europe has far more summer events than US-only fair US players get a shot at those since rest of the world gets a shot at US college tennis.
Worst Case Scenario: 2 separate ranking systems with neither holding all the data and college coaches, parents, and players trying to reconcile the 2
WTN calculation could include most data outside the US, all ITF, jr ITF, Tennis Europe, USTA data but not college results
UTR includes ITA results (partner with ITA), events on UTR platform, high school results and historical USTA/ITF/ATP/WTA data but is not allowed to scrape or import sometime after 2020
Since USTA is siding with WTN, it is conceivable that UTR might not even include USTA junior and adult tournaments and ITF events held in US so UTR would not even be complete for US results.

This is all new but I wanted to put info out there on best and worst cases for forum members to consider and discuss.

In case anyone is interested, here is the link to Dave Miley's manifesto for ITF presidents (his 7 pillars): https://bit.ly/2NsZmgz or follow him on twitter @DaveMileyTennis. He has lot of good ideas. I think he got pushed out by ITF leadership for not being a yes man. Ironically he now works for UTR (https://blog.universaltennis.com/20...velopment-david-miley-joins-universal-tennis/ ), so if he is elected maybe he can make for a smooth coexistence between the two systems.

USTA has a dinosaur of a system with Tennislink and the reports it formerly sent to ITF for US national ranking for entry into Qualis (after ATP points in 2018 and before) were sent late with major omissions and inaccuracies.

ITF generated 5 months of shadow rankings in 2018 before adopting ITF world points. Through I disagreed with the ATP/ITF changes, at least the reports were accurate. However, ITF tourneys are single elimination, and this new WTN, if it truly is going to be based on worldwide results will have the more difficult process of also capturing consolation rounds.

 

[jcgatennismom]

The collision course between ITF and UTR was first mentioned on TTW on May 7 2018 by@CourtHive. Here is a link to the article he included in his post a year ago https://medium.com/@TennisVisuals/the-universal-appeal-of-tennis-ratings-96d947f4d240 which discusses open source vs proprietary algorithms, the need for tennis standards, European privacy rules, etc. That article mentions another article on tennis open standards for data https://medium.com/@TennisVisuals/toss-tennis-open-software-standards-846cf7276962 For those of you involved with information systems or with a vested interest in what the tennis universe should look like in future years, you may want to read these too. Even for those who are just college tennis fans, realize how data is used can provide or eliminate opportunities for collegians to gain entry to the pro tour.

 

[Cashman]

This is a bit of a non-event really. As much as it pretends to be a global rating, UTR has little relevance outside the US. WTN will become the standard globally.

America can either get on board with the WTN or continue to be left behind the rest of the world.

 

[MarTennis]

This is a bit of a non-event really. As much as it pretends to be a global rating, UTR has little relevance outside the US. WTN will become the standard globally.

America can either get on board with the WTN or continue to be left behind the rest of the world.

You didn't read anything. USTA endorses.

 

[Cashman]

We're not talking about USTA, we're talking about college tennis.

 

[jcgatennismom]

We're not talking about USTA, we're talking about college tennis.

The ITA could be put in a tough position as a partner with UTR. Oracle which invested in UTR sponsors many college events. However 60% of the top tennis players are internationals who will probably earn a WTN rating in their home countries. Even US players who play jr ITFs or Futures will have a WTN rating plus almost all juniors play USTA events. ITA college events may be the only major events exclusively on UTR. That's one reason why I hope Dave Miley is elected so either both rankings can co-exist or there can be a smooth transition. It sounds like Dave wants to include college events in the WTN rating. Just like TRN and USTA were two different rankings for juniors recruits using mostly the same data, hopefully UTR and WTN can share data at least for the next couple years.

 

[Badmrfrosty]

Aren’t we missing the issue? Isn’t the real money in being sole owner of a platform for the likes of rec players.

 

[bertrevert]

Tennis Australia made announcement to go with UTR
https://www.tennis.com.au/news/2019...d-universal-tennis-announce-major-partnership

So in international terms they (UTR) are already brokering deals that wld ensure their (UTR) longevity, dominance

 

[bertrevert]

Aren’t we missing the issue? Isn’t the real money in being sole owner of a platform for the likes of rec players.

is what is said here
https://medium.com/@TennisVisuals/the-universal-appeal-of-tennis-ratings-96d947f4d240

 

[MarTennis]

ITF is juggling a lot of balls-a contested race for its Presidency, turf war with ATP(?), the issue of data sales to betting sites, unhappy ITF players resulting in a partial reversal of its Transition Tour, players and fans unhappy with the Davis Cup changes, and now on top of all that, the organization is taking on UTR. Do tennis orgs want to grow tennis or just self-destruct?

That said, there is a good argument for the generator of data to keep the data and create its own ranking rather than let a commercial enterprise scrape or import it and make $ off it.
An ITF generated WTN and profile could:
Eliminate duplicate names for same person-UTR has too many of them esp for foreign players who may have 4 legal names and UTR may have many combinations of some or all of them on its site.
Display correct nationality of players-UTR lets players create or claim their own profile and many show US nationality for players who play ITFs for another country
Have data standards that meet European privacy standard which are higher than US
More complete data including more national adult and junior results from multiple nations
Enable more international play as each nation would not have its own rating system

UTR currently includes:
all junior ITF and then ATP/ITF world results
all ITA college results imported from R2Sports (which is not all results-missing some consolation results-probably be better for 19/20 with R2Sports tweaks worked out)
Tennislink tournaments
Events held on UTR platform including many prize $ events, ITA summer circuits
Many USTA rec league results
Some US high school results
national and international results for juniors and adults from selected foreign countries-many countries dont have an agreement with UTR-with ITF and European privacy rules, those countries might provide those results for WTN number esp if ITF provides the digital platform.

The biggest question is what results will be included in WTN calculation. One of the candidates for ITF president Dave Miley, former ITF director of development with 25 years of experience with ITF, wants to include US college results. He has a 7 point manifesto, and this is what he said about ITF global rating system ( aka WTN):
" Introduce an ITF global rating system for tennis that can be used effectively:
* As a ranking system for high level players that includes not only junior and entry level WTT (World Tour Tennis) events, but also other verified events such as US collegiate results
* As a tool to determine entry and acceptance to higher-level professional events and to reduce the cost of playing international junior and professional tennis"

The above sounds like a great idea-would be great for college players from all nations to get into entry level pro events based on their college results instead of relying mainly on wild cards or on the hope they will get in as an alternate the first times they play before they earn any ATP or ITF world points. There was a recent US future where an UTR 8 got in the Qualis b/c last year that player had defeated a UTR 6 in a Quali and had earned a single ITF world point. In other countries UTR 10s may get in multiple Qualis even though they may get bageled in 1st rd. There are often much better US collegiate players on alternate lists for many US Future Qualis. There are US collegians UTR 13+ that dont get in Qualis without WCs.

The current ITF President who is running again is David Haggerty, very unpopular with US junior players and parents after he oversaw a major change to US jr schedule and changes to the National Clays and Hardcourts reducing draws a few years back as USTA President. Ignoring protests, his leadership pushed through changes which were reversed later. Do we see a pattern here?!!! A leader who doesnt get input from all the stakeholders or just doesnt listen, doesnt consider the consequences of changes, and then just reverses them after they blow up and expects to go on business as usual without a thought for the players negatively affected.

Best Case Scenario for WTN-more results worldwide with more accurate profiles, less duplication, and the ability to look at big trends in tennis without violating individual privacy. European club results are included, and US collegians with a WTN based off college results are able to enter European club and prize $ events as well as entry level pro circuits based on initial WTN from college results . Europe has far more summer events than US-only fair US players get a shot at those since rest of the world gets a shot at US college tennis.
Worst Case Scenario: 2 separate ranking systems with neither holding all the data and college coaches, parents, and players trying to reconcile the 2
WTN calculation could include most data outside the US, all ITF, jr ITF, Tennis Europe, USTA data but not college results
UTR includes ITA results (partner with ITA), events on UTR platform, high school results and historical USTA/ITF/ATP/WTA data but is not allowed to scrape or import sometime after 2020
Since USTA is siding with WTN, it is conceivable that UTR might not even include USTA junior and adult tournaments and ITF events held in US so UTR would not even be complete for US results.

This is all new but I wanted to put info out their on best and worst cases for forum members to consider and discuss.

In case anyone is interested, here is the link to Dave Miley's manifesto for ITF presidents (his 7 pillars): https://bit.ly/2NsZmgz or follow him on twitter @DaveMileyTennis. He has lot of good ideas. I think he got pushed out by ITF leadership for not being a yes man. Ironically he now works for UTR (https://blog.universaltennis.com/20...velopment-david-miley-joins-universal-tennis/ ), so if he is elected maybe he can make for a smooth coexistence between the two systems.

USTA has a dinosaur of a system with Tennislink and the reports it formerly sent to ITF for US national ranking for entry into Qualis (after ATP points in 2018 and before) were sent late with major omissions and inaccuracies.

ITF generated 5 months of shadow rankings in 2018 before adopting ITF world points. Through I disagreed with the ATP/ITF changes, at least the reports were accurate. However, ITF tourneys are single elimination, and this new WTN, if it truly is going to be based on worldwide results will have the more difficult process of also capturing consolation rounds.

FYI Tennislink is also going bye bye.

 

[jcgatennismom]

FYI Tennislink is also going bye bye.

What tournament software will USTA replace Tennislink with and when will this happen? I hope USTA chooses software that can import or scrape data that is outside USTA when it is needed for rankings. USTA had to reenter results from ITF juniors for national jr rankings and also ITF pro circuit results and three ITA/NCAA college events for men and women's national 500 rankings list. There were lots of mistakes with the manual entry of data by interns.

 

[MarTennis]

What tournament software will USTA replace Tennislink with and when will this happen? I hope USTA chooses software that can import or scrape data that is outside USTA when it is needed for rankings. USTA had to reenter results from ITF juniors for national jr rankings and also ITF pro circuit results and three ITA/NCAA college events for men and women's national 500 rankings list. There were lots of mistakes with the manual entry of data by interns.

I can't say publicly.

 

[MarTennis]

What tournament software will USTA replace Tennislink with and when will this happen? I hope USTA chooses software that can import or scrape data that is outside USTA when it is needed for rankings. USTA had to reenter results from ITF juniors for national jr rankings and also ITF pro circuit results and three ITA/NCAA college events for men and women's national 500 rankings list. There were lots of mistakes with the manual entry of data by interns.

I will inquire about the scraping data.

 

[Nacho]

Whats interesting about all this is that the rating have basically become the new battleground of the many tennis associations....And I don't see an agreement between them as they all have their own costs and profits at stake

 

[bertrevert]

Whats interesting about all this ...

Plus with the rise of internet/computing in our lives we covet the data. We want to know where we stand not just locally, not just against regulars, not just down the street, but versus the world. Chips in the buttcaps, mobile phone clips, electronic line calling... electronic rating data is going to be one more dataset a player will want/pay for.

 

[jcgatennismom]

Plus with the rise of internet/computing in our lives we covet the data. We want to know where we stand not just locally, not just against regulars, not just down the street, but versus the world. Chips in the buttcaps, mobile phone clips, electronic line calling... electronic rating data is going to be one more dataset a player will want/pay for.

There is so much data available that is not even being reported even though it is captured. Having rankings per court surface would be valuable info to a player who was deciding whether to play a Future on hard or clay. That data could be important to national federations at an aggregated level for top players in deciding how many clay vs hard vs grass circuits to host in their nation. In general, US pro players go deeper in hard court tournaments-if data backs that up either the US should invest more in clay training or host a high % of hard court Futures. Players may think they are much better on one surface or they play equally well on all, but the ratings by surface would verify or negate their gut instincts. Similarly a coach of a team that plays primarily inside might be interested in a player's rating on indoor surfaces. All teams end up outside at some point, but knowing relative strengths and weaknesses on different surfaces might help a coach with his lineup. I've seen some international players with mainly clay experience drop significantly in UTR when they are playing solely on hard. Even for a player to determine from data analysis whether he/she has a higher win % playing no ads (college) or ads (pro circuit) could help in their decision making. There is so much data for gender, age, nationality, surface, scoring format, match length (pro tourneys), home/away/neutral match for college that could be analyzed. Temperature, humidity, night vs day are other parameters that could be captured. I think NCAA arbitrarily decided there is a 10% bonus for winning away but data analytics might show that bonus should be 15 or 20%. Data analytics and data science are hot new careers, and there are companies that video players and capture digital info even at the point level. I think I read Fed won 14 more points than Novak, but Novak won more of the important ones.

UTR's data might be enough for rec players or as a starting point for college recruiting. However, a higher degree of data which might be more available from the ITF would help in the development of pro players. UTR needs less focus on games won and more on set won esp when looking at pro players. No one cares if a player lost a set 1-6 if the player pulls out a win in 4 or 5 sets.

 

[BallBag]

What tournament software will USTA replace Tennislink with and when will this happen? I hope USTA chooses software that can import or scrape data that is outside USTA when it is needed for rankings. USTA had to reenter results from ITF juniors for national jr rankings and also ITF pro circuit results and three ITA/NCAA college events for men and women's national 500 rankings list. There were lots of mistakes with the manual entry of data by interns.

Deloitte got a contract for replace tennislink back in 2016. Sounds like the USTA is very much aligned with the current ITF leadership, so I'm guessing WTN (ITF) and USTA (tennislink) will share data freely. This kinda leaves UTR in a funny place. If ITF/USTA decide that they don't like UTR making money using their data, would they cut them off? I'm not even sure they could cut them off, from a legal standpoint. UTR doesn't have much data to reciprocate with and its main (or only) use is for US college admissions, so its heavily dependent on ITF/USTA data.

 

[CourtHive]

Deloitte got a contract for replace tennislink back in 2016.

Fact check: Deloitte has in the past provided digital services... but they are in no way replacing tennislink

 

[BallBag]

Fact check: Deloitte has in the past provided digital services... but they are in no way replacing tennislink

They probably subcontracted another firm to actually build it and maintain it.

 

[AMGF]

Just got an email saying we're starting to use WTN in Canada starting jan 1st. Is it the same for you guys in the USA?

 

[BallBag]

Just got an email saying we're starting to use WTN in Canada starting jan 1st. Is it the same for you guys in the USA?

As in it's going to get reported and calculated for you or used for seeding tournaments?

 

[AMGF]

As in it's going to get reported and calculated for you or used for seeding tournaments?

It seems it's gonna be the new standard for sanctionned tournaments across Canada. I don't have more info at the moment I just received an email from tennis Quebec informing us about this and give us the option to opt out. But I guess if we opt out then we're out of sanctionned tournaments. So I take it as we're adopting this new ranking system starting jan 1st.

 

[toby55555]

World Tennis Number is meant to start next year; having a range from 40 up to 1 it should be pretty accurate. It isn't just for ITF events and certainly in UK will replace our LTA Rating system.
The new World Tennis Number has been specifically developed through a partnership approach by the ITF, LTA, USTA and FFT.
The guy at the ITF setting it up is a member of my club but he couldn't give me an idea of what my number would be.

 

[jcgatennismom]

The new World Tennis Number has been specifically developed through a partnership approach by the ITF, LTA, USTA and FFT.

The USTA will decide what results are included from US matches. I asked someone I know who has contacts with national USTA office, and this is what she had to say " Conversations are still ongoing between the USTA and the ITF, as well as the ITA, as to how match data will be integrated into the WTN rating system and which specific events will be incorporated." I hope ITA sanctioned college matches will be included which would help both US players and internationals. However I doubt the ITA's open fall and summer circuits would be included since they run on UTR's platform. When the other major ITA events return post pandemic, I hope they will be included but many are sponsored by Oracle which has a stake in UTR which of course is a major competitor to WTN. It appears ITA is caught in the middle with college players playing ITF pro events most falls (not this year) and also Oracle sponsored events.

 

[BallBag]

I don't see why UTR would not share their data with ITF. UTR would not have much of a future if the USTA did not allow them to scrape their data. The ITF might not want to include UTR results if they don't think the events meet some legitimacy standard but ITA is well above that. Maybe they don't have a way of separating data from ITA type events from a regular UTR event.

 

[bobleenov1963]

The USTA will decide what results are included from US matches. I asked someone I know who has contacts with national USTA office, and this is what she had to say " Conversations are still ongoing between the USTA and the ITF, as well as the ITA, as to how match data will be integrated into the WTN rating system and which specific events will be incorporated." I hope ITA sanctioned college matches will be included which would help both US players and internationals. However I doubt the ITA's open fall and summer circuits would be included since they run on UTR's platform. When the other major ITA events return post pandemic, I hope they will be included but many are sponsored by Oracle which has a stake in UTR which of course is a major competitor to WTN. It appears ITA is caught in the middle with college players playing ITF pro events most falls (not this year) and also Oracle sponsored events.

I don't see why UTR would not share their data with ITF. UTR would not have much of a future if the USTA did not allow them to scrape their data. The ITF might not want to include UTR results if they don't think the events meet some legitimacy standard but ITA is well above that. Maybe they don't have a way of separating data from ITA type events from a regular UTR event.

Look, these systems do not want to share data with one another for a very simple reason. The data they collected is very valuable to advertisers. Oracle also has an interest in harvesting these data.

 

[BallBag]

Look, these systems do not want to share data with one another for a very simple reason. The data they collected is very valuable to advertisers. Oracle also has an interest in harvesting these data.

The USTA has the legal right to deny access to web scrapers.

 

[bobleenov1963]

The USTA has the legal right to deny access to web scrapers.

Not when Oracle come with a full bag of money. USTA will hand over the data for $$$

 

[BallBag]

Not when Oracle come with a full bag of money. USTA will hand over the data for $$$

I don't remember seeing any incoming cash from UTR on USTA tax fillings.

 

[jcgatennismom]

I don't see why UTR would not share their data with ITF. UTR would not have much of a future if the USTA did not allow them to scrape their data. The ITF might not want to include UTR results if they don't think the events meet some legitimacy standard but ITA is well above that. Maybe they don't have a way of separating data from ITA type events from a regular UTR event.

I think the reverse situation could happen-that the ITF will reject results from UTR platforms so that only ITF and national association events will count and ITF/national associations can take market share from UTR. If the WTN becomes a way to get into Futures after ATP/ITF rankings as in qualifiers, high level juniors and college players will want to play events that count for WTN. It could be everyone will have both UTR and WTN numbers as there still could be a market for prize $ tourneys that are on UTR. Right now UTR pulls in data from USTA events, ITF events, some national associations, college events, prize $ events. Once WTN is established, they could exclude the first 3 from UTR, and the ITA might have to choose sides. However, I think those decisions are 3-5 years away. During the pandemic, UTR became more popular as USTA cancelled almost everything but UTR was hosting events by summer. People like the flexibility of UTR-more locations, less hoops to jump through, cheaper entry fees compared to USTA (tho ITF is cheapest), registration deadlines just a few days or maybe a week before events unlike many USTA/ iTF events with deadlines 3 weeks prior to event.

Your point about legitimacy standard is somewhat on target-the issue is Europe has much higher standards for privacy, and that is probably why many national associations wont let UTR scrape their data. Also why should they give data to UTR for free if they can somehow monetize it and use it to fund their national associations. Currently only players who want to play Futures purchase an ITR membership for $60ish a year. If they add all national results for large countries like USA, UK, France and the rest of Europe including rec results and can get all those people to buy a membership, that is exponentially more $.

I think both will survive as UTR has shown itself to be nimble and innovative. UTR has some HS matches on its database. Possibly UTR could get all those and provide rankings for 150K kids who play HS tennis but not USTA/ITF tourneys, and also drive those HS students into UTR events to be recruited by D3, NAIA and some D2 schools (most of D2 and 60% of D1 are international players who would have WTN rankings). With budget cuts, I think there will be more walk on or lower scholarship players, and one possible future scenario is the top of the roster kids might have WTN and UTR (from prize $ tourneys) and the lower roster/divisions players would just have UTR ranking.

 

[jcgatennismom]

I wanted to add some more info from the World Tennis Number website https://www.worldtennisnumber.com/en/faq. Unlike UTR, the WTN algorithm will be based on how many sets won in a match. I do think that is better than a game count, because a guy who won 0-6 7-6 7-6 on uTR is going to be ranked lower than his opponent if they both were ranked about the same prior to the match. The WTN will also consider up to 4 years of results which I think it helpful -someone who takes a couple years off of tennis should not have to start from scratch. The college player who picks up his racquet after a couple years is still going to be much more competitive than the average rec player provided he/she hasnt gained 40 pounds.

"The ITF World Tennis Number is one scale aimed at all players of any age, ability and gender." So WTN would probably be millions or people vs the 30K or less who buy current adult or junior ITF memberships
"What match results will count towards your ITF World Tennis Number?
Your completed match results supplied by Tennis Associations will contribute towards your ITF World Tennis Number. Different match formats and grades of competition will affect your Number differently. Each match format will be weighted to ensure that your Number is adjusted after each match to reflect your ability."

 

[BallBag]

I think the reverse situation could happen-that the ITF will reject results from UTR platforms so that only ITF and national association events will count and ITF/national associations can take market share from UTR. If the WTN becomes a way to get into Futures after ATP/ITF rankings as in qualifiers, high level juniors and college players will want to play events that count for WTN. It could be everyone will have both UTR and WTN numbers as there still could be a market for prize $ tourneys that are on UTR. Right now UTR pulls in data from USTA events, ITF events, some national associations, college events, prize $ events. Once WTN is established, they could exclude the first 3 from UTR, and the ITA might have to choose sides. However, I think those decisions are 3-5 years away. During the pandemic, UTR became more popular as USTA cancelled almost everything but UTR was hosting events by summer. People like the flexibility of UTR-more locations, less hoops to jump through, cheaper entry fees compared to USTA (tho ITF is cheapest), registration deadlines just a few days or maybe a week before events unlike many USTA/ iTF events with deadlines 3 weeks prior to event.

Your point about legitimacy standard is somewhat on target-the issue is Europe has much higher standards for privacy, and that is probably why many national associations wont let UTR scrape their data. Also why should they give data to UTR for free if they can somehow monetize it and use it to fund their national associations. Currently only players who want to play Futures purchase an ITR membership for $60ish a year. If they add all national results for large countries like USA, UK, France and the rest of Europe including rec results and can get all those people to buy a membership, that is exponentially more $.

I think both will survive as UTR has shown itself to be nimble and innovative. UTR has some HS matches on its database. Possibly UTR could get all those and provide rankings for 150K kids who play HS tennis but not USTA/ITF tourneys, and also drive those HS students into UTR events to be recruited by D3, NAIA and some D2 schools (most of D2 and 60% of D1 are international players who would have WTN rankings). With budget cuts, I think there will be more walk on or lower scholarship players, and one possible future scenario is the top of the roster kids might have WTN and UTR (from prize $ tourneys) and the lower roster/divisions players would just have UTR ranking.

I don't know why UTR and WTN cant coexist. It's better for everyone if they share data.

I wanted to add some more info from the World Tennis Number website https://www.worldtennisnumber.com/en/faq. Unlike UTR, the WTN algorithm will be based on how many sets won in a match. I do think that is better than a game count, because a guy who won 0-6 7-6 7-6 on uTR is going to be ranked lower than his opponent if they both were ranked about the same prior to the match. The WTN will also consider up to 4 years of results which I think it helpful -someone who takes a couple years off of tennis should not have to start from scratch. The college player who picks up his racquet after a couple years is still going to be much more competitive than the average rec player provided he/she hasnt gained 40 pounds.

"The ITF World Tennis Number is one scale aimed at all players of any age, ability and gender." So WTN would probably be millions or people vs the 30K or less who buy current adult or junior ITF memberships
"What match results will count towards your ITF World Tennis Number?
Your completed match results supplied by Tennis Associations will contribute towards your ITF World Tennis Number. Different match formats and grades of competition will affect your Number differently. Each match format will be weighted to ensure that your Number is adjusted after each match to reflect your ability."

I think they need to use 4 years of data to compansate for not counting games. I think it fine for adults but 4 year old data for juniors is not accurate. Though, juniors have a lot more match data so it might work out.

 

[jcgatennismom]

@BallBag "I don't know why UTR and WTN cant coexist. It's better for everyone if they share data." I agree but $ and reputation are at stake between USTA and UTR. Ultimately UsTA will decide what goes in WTN from US tourneys. USTA is used to having a monopoly. With junior ITFs, there used to be 51 events in Caribbean a year, and only 17 in the US. Jr ITFs cost $40 entry fee and attracted blue chip players but lower level players with no prior jr ITF could get in coming from Qualis. Similar level USTA national 1s had tourney fees of $140+. The only reason there were so few jr ITFs in US compared with the rest of the world is that USTA must have had an agreement with ITF to keep them out. If there had been more jr ITFs in US, juniors would have played them instead of USTA-shoot there were a lot of US kids that would fly to Haiti, Costa Rica, etc to play grade 5s- the lowest level.

USTA has laid off a lot of staff so maybe they are a humbler group now willing to work with other tennis organizations. To grow tennis all the tennis orgs need to work together. Hope it happens-it remains to be seen.

 

[Tennis Sam]

Has anyone seen this in use in any significant way yet? I see that several federations are supposedly using it, but I have been unable to find a single listing of players anywhere by their WTN.

This has been a REALLY long time in the making (original post says March of 2018). It'll be interesting to see if it's worth its salt.

 

[andfor]

............This has been a REALLY long time in the making (original post says March of 2018). It'll be interesting to see if it's worth its salt.

Good point. I got to believe the ITF's motivation (like many) is increased clicks, eyeball traffic and advertising etc., by having their own WTN. Quite frankly surprised 2 or 3 groups have not been able to come together on this cooperatively. Everyone probably wants their unfair share.

 

[Tennis Sam]

USTA promoting this in a big way now. They've had several informational zoom meetings about it. I still wish we could see some player lists with these values so we can compare with UTR.

 

[MarTennis]

WTN may take out UTR.

 

[jcgatennismom]

WTN may take out UTR.

Quite the battle this week. ITA announces exclusive deal with WTN https://www.wearecollegetennis.com/...hOMzXcMQnUpSb5g4ak-rKq8Bobb1Mi3ultHYWw_VD9LKw
UTR responds we'll just take any $ we gave to ITA and give it directly to coaches and teams. Also coaches since ITA wont add college results to UTR, we will make it easy for you to add them yourselves. https://www.universaltennis.com/pr/universal-tennis-expands-its-commitment-to-college-tennis
Some choice quotes from UTR response: "Universal Tennis generates millions in revenue for college programs each year; Universal Tennis College Camps is a leader after only the initial year of launch, and some 3,000 players have competed in the newly launched Universal Tennis College Circuits. The UTR Pro Tennis Tour (“PTT”) has streamed over 20,000 matches featuring 1,300+ college players globally. Shortly, the PTT will launch on Amazon Prime to elevate college tennis and showcase college players"
. ...
“We are committed to continuing to lead the way forward with transformational solutions for supporting college tennis. We are increasing our investment in college tennis. We are providing what collegiate players and coaches deserve, which is innovation, media elevation, revenue generation, data, and analytics,” said Mark Leschly, Chairman and CEO, Universal Tennis.

Instead of the significant financial investment and support consistently provided to the ITA, Universal Tennis believes the investment in technology, events, and sponsorship can be better spent directly for players and coaches.

“We are a technology and solutions provider that believes in giving freedom and flexibility to college programs, coaches, and players to be tailored to their needs,” commented Chase Hodges, 15-time NAIA national champion and Vice President, Universal Tennis. “It is unfortunate that the ITA is now eliminating Universal Tennis’ access to college dual match results, which belong to the teams, in an attempt to keep Universal Tennis from being able to maintain updated college player UTR Ratings which we provide free to all players and programs. Universal Tennis is committed to not letting this happen since so many college programs and players currently rely on our technology and UTR Ratings for performance, monetization and opportunities.”
As an alternative to the current process of entering match scores on the ITA website, Universal Tennis has established an easy process for college coaches to provide dual match results directly — it is simple and quick, and results will be quickly incorporated...
___________________________________________________________________________________________
Battles lines drawn. UTR comes out blazing. Parents, players, and college coaches are all the losers as more effort will be needed to keep up with 2 systems and choose appropriate tourneys to play. UTR and ITA will have competing college circuits. Way I see it WTN will have USTA, ITF, jr ITF, national federations, ITA fall and dual, plus ITA circuits while UTR will have UTR PTT, UTR circuit and new junior events, prize $ events that have moved off USTA platforms, and high school tennis. UTR has more livestreamed off season events and cheaper tourney fees. Also WTN is really buggy now. My son played 5 years D1 tennis. None of it shows under his WTN for USTA which includes junior events as far back as 2016 plus ITF (Future events). I found his college events by looking for opponent's results-for college play my American born son is listed as an un-named British player. LOL. Was he granted dual citizenship by WTN? Some college guys who are ATP 1900s are listed as Pro Zone and former college guys who earned one ATP point 3 years ago are ProZone while one college player in top ATP 600 is not ProZone. It doesn't make sense to choose WTN until at least the bugs are worked out, pilots are run with both systems, etc.

USTA and ITF have a history of making rash decisions without consulting stakeholders like parents, players, and coaches. Remember when USTA made major changes to national jr schedule including reducing number of players to level 1 national hardcourts and requiring a qualifier instead?-that lasted one year and reversed. Remember when ITF decided that ATP points shouldnt be earned at Futures except for SF and finals of $25K? Think that was 2019? That lasted 6 months before reversal. When will these arrogant bureaucracies like USTA and ITF learn to get buy in from users before making massive changes? The day after hell freezes over?

College tennis plays a large role in the increase of US players in top 50 and top 100. Now USTA wants to cannabilize college tennis for its own purposes and wealth. Wish UTR and WTN could peacefully coexist for a few more years, but unlikely. get ready for World War WTN. FWIW the UtR PTT Tour has invested $20MM in an alternative "pro" route with a different round robin format with the same $ to overall winner $3K+ but with many collegians and high level juniors getting to play more matches and earn more $-at the 20 draw events, the top 9 earn $950+ vs $250 for qualifying into $25K MD. Do a search on UTR PTT and you will see the names of players on top 10 D1 teams-esp rising freshmen. Really good events for high 11s to 13.3s. Juniors can send livestream link to coaches. Better consistent quality of play vs Future Qualis where you could face an alternate with a sub 8 UtR- even a UTR 4 occasionally. PTT Tour is in between Future Qualis and Future MD as far as level but $ is better for most
than MD

Stay tuned for next round.

 

[andfor]

Sounds unfortunate to me and because WTN is connected with USTA the ITA bent over to their wishes. UTR has done more for college tennis the last 3 years than anything the usta has. I love UTR’s response for coaches to easily and freely enter their own results. I bet as JC eluded to the WTN will be clunky and unfinished.

 

[silentkman]

Quite the battle this week. ITA announces exclusive deal with WTN https://www.wearecollegetennis.com/...hOMzXcMQnUpSb5g4ak-rKq8Bobb1Mi3ultHYWw_VD9LKw
UTR responds we'll just take any $ we gave to ITA and give it directly to coaches and teams. Also coaches since ITA wont add college results to UTR, we will make it easy for you to add them yourselves. https://www.universaltennis.com/pr/universal-tennis-expands-its-commitment-to-college-tennis
Some choice quotes from UTR response: "Universal Tennis generates millions in revenue for college programs each year; Universal Tennis College Camps is a leader after only the initial year of launch, and some 3,000 players have competed in the newly launched Universal Tennis College Circuits. The UTR Pro Tennis Tour (“PTT”) has streamed over 20,000 matches featuring 1,300+ college players globally. Shortly, the PTT will launch on Amazon Prime to elevate college tennis and showcase college players"
. ...
“We are committed to continuing to lead the way forward with transformational solutions for supporting college tennis. We are increasing our investment in college tennis. We are providing what collegiate players and coaches deserve, which is innovation, media elevation, revenue generation, data, and analytics,” said Mark Leschly, Chairman and CEO, Universal Tennis.

Instead of the significant financial investment and support consistently provided to the ITA, Universal Tennis believes the investment in technology, events, and sponsorship can be better spent directly for players and coaches.

“We are a technology and solutions provider that believes in giving freedom and flexibility to college programs, coaches, and players to be tailored to their needs,” commented Chase Hodges, 15-time NAIA national champion and Vice President, Universal Tennis. “It is unfortunate that the ITA is now eliminating Universal Tennis’ access to college dual match results, which belong to the teams, in an attempt to keep Universal Tennis from being able to maintain updated college player UTR Ratings which we provide free to all players and programs. Universal Tennis is committed to not letting this happen since so many college programs and players currently rely on our technology and UTR Ratings for performance, monetization and opportunities.”
As an alternative to the current process of entering match scores on the ITA website, Universal Tennis has established an easy process for college coaches to provide dual match results directly — it is simple and quick, and results will be quickly incorporated...
___________________________________________________________________________________________
Battles lines drawn. UTR comes out blazing. Parents, players, and college coaches are all the losers as more effort will be needed to keep up with 2 systems and choose appropriate tourneys to play. UTR and ITA will have competing college circuits. Way I see it WTN will have USTA, ITF, jr ITF, national federations, ITA fall and dual, plus ITA circuits while UTR will have UTR PTT, UTR circuit and new junior events, prize $ events that have moved off USTA platforms, and high school tennis. UTR has more livestreamed off season events and cheaper tourney fees. Also WTN is really buggy now. My son played 5 years D1 tennis. None of it shows under his WTN for USTA which includes junior events as far back as 2016 plus ITF (Future events). I found his college events by looking for opponent's results-for college play my American born son is listed as an un-named British player. LOL. Was he granted dual citizenship by WTN? Some college guys who are ATP 1900s are listed as Pro Zone and former college guys who earned one ATP point 3 years ago are ProZone while one college player in top ATP 600 is not ProZone. It doesn't make sense to choose WTN until at least the bugs are worked out, pilots are run with both systems, etc.

USTA and ITF have a history of making rash decisions without consulting stakeholders like parents, players, and coaches. Remember when USTA made major changes to national jr schedule including reducing number of players to level 1 national hardcourts and requiring a qualifier instead?-that lasted one year and reversed. Remember when ITF decided that ATP points shouldnt be earned at Futures except for SF and finals of $25K? Think that was 2019? That lasted 6 months before reversal. When will these arrogant bureaucracies like USTA and ITF learn to get buy in from users before making massive changes? The day after hell freezes over?

College tennis plays a large role in the increase of US players in top 50 and top 100. Now USTA wants to cannabilize college tennis for its own purposes and wealth. Wish UTR and WTN could peacefully coexist for a few more years, but unlikely. get ready for World War WTN. FWIW the UtR PTT Tour has invested $20MM in an alternative "pro" route with a different round robin format with the same $ to overall winner $3K+ but with many collegians and high level juniors getting to play more matches and earn more $-at the 20 draw events, the top 9 earn $950+ vs $250 for qualifying into $25K MD. Do a search on UTR PTT and you will see the names of players on top 10 D1 teams-esp rising freshmen. Really good events for high 11s to 13.3s. Juniors can send livestream link to coaches. Better consistent quality of play vs Future Qualis where you could face an alternate with a sub 8 UtR- even a UTR 4 occasionally. PTT Tour is in between Future Qualis and Future MD as far as level but $ is better for most
than MD

Stay tuned for next round.

I like the round round for the players to make some money. I was watching the livestream, only the umpire, no ball kids just a dead environment. This is defenitley better than the ITF. I don't see how the UTR can make any money, but it's not a bad deal for the players.

PRIZE MONEY DISTRIBUTION 32 DRAW (USD $): Winner:$3,475.00 Finalist: $1750.00 Semifinalist: $925.00 5th - 8th place: $725.00 9th place: $725.00 10th place: $650.00 11th & 12th place: $550.00 13th - 16th place: $500.00 17th place: $500.00 18th place: $450.00 19th & 20th place: $400.00 21st - 24th place: $350.00 25th - 32nd place: $300.00

 

[jcgatennismom]

I don't see how the UTR can make any money, but it's not a bad deal for the players.

/QUOTE]
UTR makes $ because people bet on UTR PTT matches.

 

[jcgatennismom]

Sounds unfortunate to me and because WTN is connected with USTA the ITA bent over to their wishes. UTR has done more for college tennis the last 3 years than anything the usta has. I love UTR’s response for coaches to easily and freely enter their own results. I bet as JC eluded to the WTN will be clunky and unfinished.

ITA has a small budget ($1-2MM??) and 10-12 employees. They are primarily funded by coaches' dues. I heard 3rd hand that lower division coaches have withheld dues over recent years-probably worse over pandemic as they thought ITA was too focused on D1. I disagree with that-it seems ITA has added more events for other divisions over last 4-5 years, and there were plans to have all divisions' national championships at Lake Nona maybe as early as 2023. I feel for ITA as they needed funds and USTA would give them but with strings attached-the "exclusive deal". That's how I read situation-could be wrong. Oracle used to give a lot of $$ to ITA and/or sponsor ITA events like the one in Malibu but after the Oracle exec died who had been the big tennis fan, the dollars gradually declined. ITA has always done a lot with a little-plenty of news on website, coach education videos, added events-wish they could have gotten needed $$$ from some group(s) besides USTA.

 

[silentkman]

ITA has a small budget ($1-2MM??) and 10-12 employees. They are primarily funded by coaches' dues. I heard 3rd hand that lower division coaches have withheld dues over recent years-probably worse over pandemic as they thought ITA was too focused on D1. I disagree with that-it seems ITA has added more events for other divisions over last 4-5 years, and there were plans to have all divisions' national championships at Lake Nona maybe as early as 2023. I feel for ITA as they needed funds and USTA would give them but with strings attached-the "exclusive deal". That's how I read situation-could be wrong. Oracle used to give a lot of $$ to ITA and/or sponsor ITA events like the one in Malibu but after the Oracle exec died who had been the big tennis fan, the dollars gradually declined. ITA has always done a lot with a little-plenty of news on website, coach education videos, added events-wish they could have gotten needed $$$ from some group(s) besides USTA.

That would make sense for a niche sport. I see they have a lot of corporate partners, but seriously college tennis doesn't make any money. Oracle had their own tour at one point. I'm sure some people on this board support college tennis financially. The future of college tennis is grim.

 

[MarTennis]

The USTA kneecaps UTR ability to readily upload college scores, so UTR will fund college coaches to voluntarily upload the scores. How does ITA allow? Also, will the USTA or ITA now be uploading college scores? Has that been hashed out?

 

[MarTennis]

I just took my initial deep dive into the WTN website looking at my kids data. Not going to sugarcoat it, I am impressed. They provide some information that UTR has abdicated like deep past results and heavy filtering. If this system can develop competition within the game zone that they recommend in their methodology, it could contribute to better development.

World Tennis Number - Powered by ITF

worldtennisnumber.com

 

[jcgatennismom]

I just took my initial deep dive into the WTN website looking at my kids data. Not going to sugarcoat it, I am impressed. They provide some information that UTR has abdicated like deep past results and heavy filtering. If this system can develop competition within the game zone that they recommend in their methodology, it could contribute to better development.

World Tennis Number - Powered by ITF

worldtennisnumber.com

Are your kids playing juniors? I do see value in WTN including multiple years of results. For college results, there was data missing from the R2 Sports years, so college data will only be from 21/22 on. From what I remember of 2018/19, there was a lot of missing results from fall invitationals-dual results may have been OK. Also I believe the ITF is making investments so that most countries will be able to input national results. I had heard that some of the less developed countries kept tournament results on paper sheets-not unlike some ITA tourneys a few years back. With free software like Icourt and possibly giving federation/TDs cheap tablets or laptops, results can now be digitized and added to WTN database which is great for players who live in countries that dont host junior ITFs. Do you know how WTN's algorithm weights past results? I would assume current 12 month results would weigh much heavier than older results. I did look at some of my son's old results outside of college-looks like WTN numbers were used for 2019 forward but not for 2016-18 so maybe 3 years in algorithm, may up to full 6 if players dont have more recent results?

What type of filtering do you see that WTN provides that UTR does not? Are you able to view a player profile that is not available to the general public yet? I dont think the head to head complete; I checked one player son had played in juniors in the timeframe included in database-WTN only include 1 out of 2 times played-didnt include a match played at National 1 event.

Data/results to be usable needs to be both accurate and complete and presented in a way that is understandable to stakeholders. Rankings/ratings based on data that does not fit that criteria is unreliable.

 

[MarTennis]

When WTN was getting cooked up I was told it would be ELO based and not particularly dissimilar from UTR. I don’t know how past results are weighed. It appears that they are weighing a lot more matches in deriving the number. I think the accuracy will come over time and with dominating access to the data.

 

[andfor]

Are your kids playing juniors? I do see value in WTN including multiple years of results. For college results, there was data missing from the R2 Sports years, so college data will only be from 21/22 on. From what I remember of 2018/19, there was a lot of missing results from fall invitationals-dual results may have been OK. Also I believe the ITF is making investments so that most countries will be able to input national results. I had heard that some of the less developed countries kept tournament results on paper sheets-not unlike some ITA tourneys a few years back. With free software like Icourt and possibly giving federation/TDs cheap tablets or laptops, results can now be digitized and added to WTN database which is great for players who live in countries that dont host junior ITFs. Do you know how WTN's algorithm weights past results? I would assume current 12 month results would weigh much heavier than older results. I did look at some of my son's old results outside of college-looks like WTN numbers were used for 2019 forward but not for 2016-18 so maybe 3 years in algorithm, may up to full 6 if players dont have more recent results?

What type of filtering do you see that WTN provides that UTR does not? Are you able to view a player profile that is not available to the general public yet? I dont think the head to head complete; I checked one player son had played in juniors in the timeframe included in database-WTN only include 1 out of 2 times played-didnt include a match played at National 1 event.

Data/results to be usable needs to be both accurate and complete and presented in a way that is understandable to stakeholders. Rankings/ratings based on data that does not fit that criteria is unreliable.

WTN’s system is not near as close to realistic ratings compared to UTR IMO. I looked up a number of league players I play with and the ratings are all over the place. For those playing many more matches such as juniors, college and pros maybe it's a decent tool. In the meantime I'll say it does not look very accurate to me.

 

[jcgatennismom]

WTN’s system is not near as close to realistic ratings compared to UTR IMO. I looked up a number of league players I play with and the ratings are all over the place. For those playing many more matches such as juniors, college and pros maybe it's a decent tool. In the meantime I'll say it does not look very accurate to me.

Currently there are significant issues with its ratings for juniors and collegians too. It is already being used for USTA junior tourneys, and I have heard that players seeded high by WTN have lost badly to players with higher UTRs. The WTNs of pros cant be seen now, but in the near future only the top 200 will be in Pro Zone-201-2000+ ATP will have a WTN rating. Hopefully the accuracy of the ratings will improve in the next 3-6 months as results and seedings are published and errors identified and fixed.