Getting blown out

[Shroud]

Ugh. I lost 0-6, 1-6 to TT member Papa Mango.

How do you learn from that and improve?

It really was strategy. He had it, I didnt.

Really not sure how to play. Ugh. Too slow for SV and baseline game just sucks. Its either just getting it back or hitting out. Only difference is how long the points are.

Asked another way, how do you baseline? Dont those wardlaw directionals say to just hit crosscourt except for certain situations?

 

[10isfreak]

There are basic guidelines that you can follow.

1 ) Most balls are easier to send back cross-court. So, send most of your balls, against most opponents, cross-court.

2 ) When you are well balanced and properly set, it's easier to change directions.

3 ) The more powerful a stroke, the easier it is to change direction. If you are a forehand-leaning player, your forehand being more powerful, it will be easier to change direction with your forehand.

4 ) When the path of the incoming ball does not cross you in front of your body -- that is, when the ball moves towards you and not away from you --, it's easier to change directions.

5 ) When the ball falls slightly short or is not peculiarly commanding, it's easier to change directions.

6 ) When the ball is to be struck closer to your ideal strike zone instead of being peculiarly high or peculiarly low, it's easier to change directions.

And always remember that hitting down the line means you will have to cover more ground before reaching an ideal recovery position. That is to say, expecting a cross-court reply, you will have to move to the other side of the court after you have struck the ball down the line. So, if you do not have acceptable running ground strokes, you have be even more picky about which ball whose direction you will change.

Now, for different shot options, there are guidelines too.

7 ) Tennis has four dimensions -- that is, three directions and time. It means that there are times where hitting shorter actually means leaving the ball even further away from your opponent; and it means that you should not think of it as simply running your opponent from side to side -- there is also depth, height and time that you can play with.

8 ) Don't drop shot if you're moving backward. Drop shot when you are slightly inside the court and when your opponent is far off the court.

9 ) The more spin you put on the ball and the more height you give to it, the slower it must travel to be a safe shot. So, make sure that your average ball is somewhere in between a nice arcing ball and a flat winner.

10 ) You can change the tempo of a rally by using a nice loopy shot or slices. But don't overdo it; the point is to make your other shots harder to anticipate, not to dink all the time.

11 ) Never pull the trigger when you are not standing inside the court unless the court is already empty. The further away you are from the net, the harder it is to produce an angle or a solid shot. If you want to nail the ball, wait for a shorter one.

12 ) The last thing you do is planning to take time away from your opponent. That is to say, it's always your last tactical option -- the one you revert to when your opponent is good enough to command it. You start by doing easy stuff to cut down on errors; then, you can try to exploit their weaknesses; and, if neither works, you try to make them run. It's only when nothing else is enough that you start going for half-volleys, hitting on the rise, charging the net, etc. on a regular basis.

13 ) Because point 12 was important, I will echo it again. You never want to do too much to earn a point. Excellence lies in using the right measure, Aristotle said. If you all you need to earn points is to wait for your opponent to make a mistake, don't make them run from side to side on top of it. You'll be making mistakes that are completely uncalled for.

 

[Deleted member 232704]

Serve and volley really isnt for everyone. If your not chipping and charging, your going to rely on your baseline game to be able to set up a chance for you to get at the net and close off the court.
There really isnt much to baselining. Keep a high variety of shot selection. That could be a moonball, slicing, high topspin forehands and backhands, etc. Hitting crosscourt is good for sure but if you're always hitting crosscourt your just going to become one of the most predictable players out there. Mix it up. I.E, crosscourt forehand 3 times, and on the 4th shot, go DTL with whatever you want like a slice or shoot up a high shot that makes it difficult to hit back. Whatever gets him off of the groove. Do annoying things like play the moonball game. First one to become impatient loses and hopefully that wont be you.

 

[Topspin Shot]

I nominate 10isfreak's post for a sticky.

 

[navigator]

I nominate 10isfreak's post for a sticky.

Agreed. Great post.

I would add one thing, and it's common sense (I think): If your opponent has one stroke that's materially inferior to another... hit it deep to the inferior stroke as often as possible, regardless of pace or whether it's crosscourt or not. Over time this should result in short balls you can use to open up the court.

 

[10isfreak]

Agreed. Great post.

I would add one thing, and it's common sense (I think): If your opponent has one stroke that's materially inferior to another... hit it deep to the inferior stroke as often as possible, regardless of pace or whether it's crosscourt or not. Over time this should result in short balls you can use to open up the court.

The classical case being the intermediate player who hardly can strike a backhand, although he can tee off his forehand side.

 

[Coach Chad]

Shroud, an old coach told me once: "If your winning all the time you aren't learning"...the fact that you are seeking to improve and not giving up says a lot. Continue to seek advice, and do not try to improve every aspect of you game all at once.

 

[onehandbh]

Can you give more details on how the match went? Descriptions of how typical points went? rallies? Did he hit winners or did you miss? Did you do most of the running? What balls did he attack? serves? returns?

Ugh. I lost 0-6, 1-6 to TT member Papa Mango.

How do you learn from that and improve?

It really was strategy. He had it, I didnt.

Really not sure how to play. Ugh. Too slow for SV and baseline game just sucks. Its either just getting it back or hitting out. Only difference is how long the points are.

 

[mightyrick]

Ugh. I lost 0-6, 1-6 to TT member Papa Mango.

How do you learn from that and improve?

It really was strategy. He had it, I didnt.

Really not sure how to play. Ugh. Too slow for SV and baseline game just sucks. Its either just getting it back or hitting out. Only difference is how long the points are.

Asked another way, how do you baseline? Dont those wardlaw directionals say to just hit crosscourt except for certain situations?

Shroud, don't beat up on yourself. Quite honestly, it sounds like your opponent was just better than you. If you lost 0-6, 1-6... then that is probably the proper score for a player of your level playing someone of his level.

A player who is a half NTRP point better than you... if they remain focused in a match... will double-bagel you.

As for baselining, you just need a lot of practice. The Wardlaw directionals really just speak to when it is appropriate (from a high-percentage perspective) to change the direction of the ball.

At 3.0 and 3.5, just focus on hitting to your opponent's backhand. If you get a short ball, don't "go for it". Just take a 50% stroke and put it into the open court. Be patient. Be patient. Be patient. Be patient.

You'll improve, don't worry. My advice would be to play this guy again... and again... and again... if he is willing to do it.

 

[Shroud]

There are basic guidelines that you can follow.

DAMN thats a great post. THANKS. Agree with Topspin, lets get that sticky'd.

There alot there and I will need to take it all in. One glaring mistake I was making is the time thing. In my head that is my first go to. Ugh. Lots to fix.

Serve and volley really isnt for everyone. If your not chipping and charging, your going to rely on your baseline game to be able to set up a chance for you to get at the net and close off the court.
There really isnt much to baselining. Keep a high variety of shot selection. That could be a moonball, slicing, high topspin forehands and backhands, etc. Hitting crosscourt is good for sure but if you're always hitting crosscourt your just going to become one of the most predictable players out there. Mix it up. I.E, crosscourt forehand 3 times, and on the 4th shot, go DTL with whatever you want like a slice or shoot up a high shot that makes it difficult to hit back. Whatever gets him off of the groove. Do annoying things like play the moonball game. First one to become impatient loses and hopefully that wont be you.

Yeah this is some good advice. In actuality I was just trying to keep it high and deep in the rallies and look for openings. It worked on occasion but man I hit sooooo many weak volleys when I had the put away shot....long story but I had a lesson on volleys and it trashed my volley, but with practice I think it will be better.

Shroud, an old coach told me once: "If your winning all the time you aren't learning"...the fact that you are seeking to improve and not giving up says a lot. Continue to seek advice, and do not try to improve every aspect of you game all at once.

LOL. Thats so funny. I have revamped my serve, forehand and volley! Really its a wonder I didnt double fault every point away. Considering the recent changes I was pretty happy with the strokes (except volley) it just that I am more aggressive and like to come in, but my serve is different now and coming in is just not clicking. Maybe I should just focus on the serve and get some practice in. Long story but I need to serve, take a couple of steps and pause instead of serving and running in wildly .

Also Papa Mango was nice enough to give me some tips. Mainly he was right that I wasnt hitting my forehand out in front enough. This is one of the changes and it was hit or miss. Most of it was due to this being the first time with the new forehand facing someone with as much spin and arc on the ball. It is just a timing thing.

The fact that he saw that amazes me. Leed had feedback about my strokes and occasionally I'll play dubs and the partner will have a 7 point critic of the guy he was warming up with. Ugh I never seem to be able to see ANYTHING like that.

Also I am not getting the kick (twist) on my 2nd serve I remember. I need to work on that aspect of the serve.

Thanks!

 

[Shroud]

Shroud, don't beat up on yourself. Quite honestly, it sounds like your opponent was just better than you. If you lost 0-6, 1-6... then that is probably the proper score for a player of your level playing someone of his level.

A player who is a half NTRP point better than you... if they remain focused in a match... will double-bagel you.

As for baselining, you just need a lot of practice. The Wardlaw directionals really just speak to when it is appropriate (from a high-percentage perspective) to change the direction of the ball.

At 3.0 and 3.5, just focus on hitting to your opponent's backhand. If you get a short ball, don't "go for it". Just take a 50% stroke and put it into the open court. Be patient. Be patient. Be patient. Be patient.

You'll improve, don't worry. My advice would be to play this guy again... and again... and again... if he is willing to do it.

Its really hard to just sit back and baseline. I just feel so defensive like I have already given up on the point. Its hard to explain. Not saying its TRUE, just thats how I feel.

See that be patient stuff. UGH. I just feel wimpy spinning it back. Its going to get pounced on, or lead to a constructed point that I lose.

I have a different partner who played in college. She just knows what to do with the ball and anything short or down the middle just ends in disaster. It makes me not want to just get it back in play.

Anyhow we will play again and one day the scores will be different. Thanks for the advice!

 

[LeeD]

No shame there at all.
Papa Mango is a fit, 30 year old who specializes in singles play, moves like the wind, bounces his serves up around forehead heights, and is content to play rally ball tennis from the baseline, chasing everything down with his speed. A true, "modern" kind of player.
I"d expect the same to happen to me, as we'll see when I hit with Matt Lin.

 

[Papa Mango]

Agreed. Great post.

I would add one thing, and it's common sense (I think): If your opponent has one stroke that's materially inferior to another... hit it deep to the inferior stroke as often as possible, regardless of pace or whether it's crosscourt or not. Over time this should result in short balls you can use to open up the court.

Maybe he don't have an inferior stroke :twisted::twisted::twisted:

Thirding the motion to sticky 10isfreak's post.

Shroud,
Apart from hitting the forehand a little bit more out in front, since you mentioned wardlaw directionals is that they are meant to keep you in the point and the rally going. I don't think they suggest to blast a cross-court winner from 4 feet behind the baseline

Tremendously helped me when I incorporated them in my game and you might have noticed I didn't 'win' many points, but you did 'lose' a lot more!

No shame there at all.
Papa Mango is a fit, 30 year old who specializes in singles play, moves like the wind, bounces his serves up around forehead heights, and is content to play rally ball tennis from the baseline, chasing everything down with his speed. A true, "modern" kind of player.
I"d expect the same to happen to me, as we'll see when I hit with Matt Lin.

Hey Lee! Long time no see.
I wish all those things were true... closer to the wrong end of 30, with the beer belly flapping in the wind, playing more and more doubles every week than singles

 

[10isfreak]

See that be patient stuff. UGH. I just feel wimpy spinning it back. Its going to get pounced on, or lead to a constructed point that I lose.

I have a different partner who played in college. She just knows what to do with the ball and anything short or down the middle just ends in disaster. It makes me not want to just get it back in play.

The quality of your ball has to match the quality of your opponent; and so must your tactics, as I said earlier. Hitting a rally ball doesn't mean you "just get it back in play," unless that's enough. Typically, it means neutralizing your opponent -- i.e., putting them in a situation where their best shot is an average shot.

 

[winstonlim8]

There are basic guidelines that you can follow.

1 ) Most balls are easier to send back cross-court. So, send most of your balls, against most opponents, cross-court.

2 ) When you are well balanced and properly set, it's easier to change directions.

3 ) The more powerful a stroke, the easier it is to change direction. If you are a forehand-leaning player, your forehand being more powerful, it will be easier to change direction with your forehand.

4 ) When the path of the incoming ball does not cross you in front of your body -- that is, when the ball moves towards you and not away from you --, it's easier to change directions.

5 ) When the ball falls slightly short or is not peculiarly commanding, it's easier to change directions.

6 ) When the ball is to be struck closer to your ideal strike zone instead of being peculiarly high or peculiarly low, it's easier to change directions.

And always remember that hitting down the line means you will have to cover more ground before reaching an ideal recovery position. That is to say, expecting a cross-court reply, you will have to move to the other side of the court after you have struck the ball down the line. So, if you do not have acceptable running ground strokes, you have be even more picky about which ball whose direction you will change.

Now, for different shot options, there are guidelines too.

7 ) Tennis has four dimensions -- that is, three directions and time. It means that there are times where hitting shorter actually means leaving the ball even further away from your opponent; and it means that you should not think of it as simply running your opponent from side to side -- there is also depth, height and time that you can play with.

8 ) Don't drop shot if you're moving backward. Drop shot when you are slightly inside the court and when your opponent is far off the court.

9 ) The more spin you put on the ball and the more height you give to it, the slower it must travel to be a safe shot. So, make sure that your average ball is somewhere in between a nice arcing ball and a flat winner.

10 ) You can change the tempo of a rally by using a nice loopy shot or slices. But don't overdo it; the point is to make your other shots harder to anticipate, not to dink all the time.

11 ) Never pull the trigger when you are not standing inside the court unless the court is already empty. The further away you are from the net, the harder it is to produce an angle or a solid shot. If you want to nail the ball, wait for a shorter one.

12 ) The last thing you do is planning to take time away from your opponent. That is to say, it's always your last tactical option -- the one you revert to when your opponent is good enough to command it. You start by doing easy stuff to cut down on errors; then, you can try to exploit their weaknesses; and, if neither works, you try to make them run. It's only when nothing else is enough that you start going for half-volleys, hitting on the rise, charging the net, etc. on a regular basis.

13 ) Because point 12 was important, I will echo it again. You never want to do too much to earn a point. Excellence lies in using the right measure, Aristotle said. If you all you need to earn points is to wait for your opponent to make a mistake, don't make them run from side to side on top of it. You'll be making mistakes that are completely uncalled for.

Thanks for this. It's great advice and applicable at all levels.

 

[Topspin Shot]

Its really hard to just sit back and baseline. I just feel so defensive like I have already given up on the point. Its hard to explain. Not saying its TRUE, just thats how I feel.

See that be patient stuff. UGH. I just feel wimpy spinning it back. Its going to get pounced on, or lead to a constructed point that I lose.

Does this really happen? Did you try letting the points develop, maybe hitting a few shots with the intent to prolong the point rather than end it? It's very hard to probe a guy for weaknesses and opportunities to attack when all the rallies are over within three shots.

 

[martini1]

Ugh. I lost 0-6, 1-6 to TT member Papa Mango.

How do you learn from that and improve?

It really was strategy. He had it, I didnt.

Really not sure how to play. Ugh. Too slow for SV and baseline game just sucks. Its either just getting it back or hitting out. Only difference is how long the points are.

Asked another way, how do you baseline? Dont those wardlaw directionals say to just hit crosscourt except for certain situations?

On top of the good comments above, how is your nerve? Were you nervous, too excited, too eager to win a point? Or too down and out when you are down 4-0?

I find that I need to be very calm and relaxed in order to think game plan. And most of the ball I hit should be less power, more placement. Even at a cross court rally I cannot just hit it back to the same spot twice in a row. I would try to keep the other guy take at least 2 steps for his next shot, while I am not risking too much by trying to tag the lines all the time. If I am rushed, I need to lob it back deep or hit a sharper angle, whichever is easier.

I assume you believe this guy is not 2 levels above you so you can't beat him anyway at your current skill level. This drill may help - have your partner on the move all the time by hitting the ball to a new spot that requires him to move more than 2-3 steps, and you need to keep the ball in at least 10 strokes total. Do it in medium speed. When you get better turn it up to 60-70% power. The goal is to keep him moving and not be able to kill the ball easily. Hopefully this would help you to cut way down on your UE, and then create windows to make your opponent to return a short ball. That means you can be hitting CC but some balls would be closer to the corner and some would be closer to the center (not ON the center). After a while you know there are some balls you can hit to the other side of the court, but do not require pin point accuracy cos you are not tagging the lines. These balls are safe as long as you can hit at high success rate and your opponent is on the move from 3 steps away or more. You cover your CC position more and make them take the risk on hitting it on the run and DTL.

Sending a blind ball back CC to your opponent can be just as dangerous if he is already stand right there. He would have all the time to hit it dtl, especially on the fh cc exchange.

 

[Shroud]

Maybe he don't have an inferior stroke :twisted::twisted:

Thirding the motion to sticky 10isfreak's post.

Shroud,
Apart from hitting the forehand a little bit more out in front, since you mentioned wardlaw directionals is that they are meant to keep you in the point and the rally going. I don't think they suggest to blast a cross-court winner from 4 feet behind the baseline

Tremendously helped me when I incorporated them in my game and you might have noticed I didn't 'win' many points, but you did 'lose' a lot more!

UGH. Thats going to take a mental shift. Being patient and just staying in the point. That makes no sense to me to prolong things, but your point is well taken. I did lose a bunch on errors. Next time I'll try to minimize those. But you remember a point I was serving at 0-30. I just tried to get the rally going and hit a safe kick serve....which you ran around and hit an inside out FH winner. Thats the kind of crap that happens when I dont go for winners....6 and 1/2...

 

[Shroud]

Does this really happen? Did you try letting the points develop, maybe hitting a few shots with the intent to prolong the point rather than end it? It's very hard to probe a guy for weaknesses and opportunities to attack when all the rallies are over within three shots.

Not really. I think we had a rally maybe 6-7 balls. Pretty sure I lost that.

Its pretty easy I think. One or 2 balls I have to move for and well its all over I think.

Yesterday we played where we would just start off with a feed and play points. It was pretty much ridiculous. Like 4-21 or something. Closest I got was 15-21.

Its sad because I think even if I did prolong things it might be hard to even figure out any weaknesses. Not sure I have that kind of awareness and I dont know how to develop it. Maybe its as you say, the points are too short to figure it out.

Some of this is that I think I am in a trap where I just mindlessly hit down the middle with partners and then in a match that is what happens and I pay for that I think. Even now because my forehand was learned solely against the wall (thanks again) I am great at DTL. Crosscourt not so much.

 

[martini1]

BTW you play with a PS85?! May be that's another reason your baseline game is not as easy? I hope your signature is just a joke...

 

[Shroud]

On top of the good comments above, how is your nerve? Were you nervous, too excited, too eager to win a point? Or too down and out when you are down 4-0?

I find that I need to be very calm and relaxed in order to think game plan. And most of the ball I hit should be less power, more placement. Even at a cross court rally I cannot just hit it back to the same spot twice in a row. I would try to keep the other guy take at least 2 steps for his next shot, while I am not risking too much by trying to tag the lines all the time. If I am rushed, I need to lob it back deep or hit a sharper angle, whichever is easier.

I assume you believe this guy is not 2 levels above you so you can't beat him anyway at your current skill level. This drill may help - have your partner on the move all the time by hitting the ball to a new spot that requires him to move more than 2-3 steps, and you need to keep the ball in at least 10 strokes total. Do it in medium speed. When you get better turn it up to 60-70% power. The goal is to keep him moving and not be able to kill the ball easily. Hopefully this would help you to cut way down on your UE, and then create windows to make your opponent to return a short ball. That means you can be hitting CC but some balls would be closer to the corner and some would be closer to the center (not ON the center). After a while you know there are some balls you can hit to the other side of the court, but do not require pin point accuracy cos you are not tagging the lines. These balls are safe as long as you can hit at high success rate and your opponent is on the move from 3 steps away or more. You cover your CC position more and make them take the risk on hitting it on the run and DTL.

Sending a blind ball back CC to your opponent can be just as dangerous if he is already stand right there. He would have all the time to hit it dtl, especially on the fh cc exchange.

Nerve was good I think. I wasnt nervous like I can get in a league match. I was sore from the day before and my arm wasnt happy to be playing but I was moving OK. I did feel a bit distracted and wasnt focusing that much. There were several shots that I had plenty of time on where i told myself I would miss it....I know. It happens. All crap I havent practiced...crosscourt stuff. Nothing like lining up a forehand and you tell yourself you will miss it. WTF but it happened a few times. Tried to shrug that stuff off.

Its a good point about moving it around. I think I get into a comfort zone and the ball gets to the same spot. Thats something to work on.

I'll keep your drill in mind. Thanks.

 

[Shroud]

Can you give more details on how the match went? Descriptions of how typical points went? rallies? Did he hit winners or did you miss? Did you do most of the running? What balls did he attack? serves? returns?

I play with many people you can recount whole matches point by point.

I can barely remember the match. I think I recall 2 points.

One was where he crushed a forehand return off a safe serve I hit. The other was a BH service winner I muscled over.

Pretty sure all but one of his lobs were winners. Guess I hit most of my shots out. Lots of UE on my part I think and lots of running.

Sorry I cant provide more.

 

[Topspin Shot]

I play with many people you can recount whole matches point by point.

I can barely remember the match. I think I recall 2 points.

One was where he crushed a forehand return off a safe serve I hit. The other was a BH service winner I muscled over.

Pretty sure all but one of his lobs were winners. Guess I hit most of my shots out. Lots of UE on my part I think and lots of running.

Sorry I cant provide more.

PapaMango seems to think you gave him more points than he won. Maybe you're remembering the winners because they're more eventful, and you're forgetting how the match really happened. This happens to a lot of people, and savvy opponents will use this against you.

 

[Papa Mango]

I play with many people you can recount whole matches point by point.

I can barely remember the match. I think I recall 2 points.

One was where he crushed a forehand return off a safe serve I hit. The other was a BH service winner I muscled over.

Pretty sure all but one of his lobs were winners. Guess I hit most of my shots out. Lots of UE on my part I think and lots of running.

Sorry I cant provide more.

That forehand winner even I remember!
And the lobs were working great for some reason

I did hit a decent amount of winners, but then that was due to the fact that I knew next point I could hit 3 rally balls and I would get the point. No pressure tennis.

You flubbed quite a few volleys. And then there were a few instances where you were mindlessly coming in even on a short cross court approaches.

This is something I am guilty of that I have realized as I play more doubles, not being set before hitting a volley. When practicing/drilling, I split/set and volley. Works brilliantly. While in match play, me Spartacus the tennis warrior is just hell bent on rushing the net and don't set before volleying. Result is ball in the net. Which is something you were doing as well today.

 

[martini1]

Nerve was good I think. I wasnt nervous like I can get in a league match. I was sore from the day before and my arm wasnt happy to be playing but I was moving OK. I did feel a bit distracted and wasnt focusing that much. There were several shots that I had plenty of time on where i told myself I would miss it....I know. It happens. All crap I havent practiced...crosscourt stuff. Nothing like lining up a forehand and you tell yourself you will miss it. WTF but it happened a few times. Tried to shrug that stuff off.

Its a good point about moving it around. I think I get into a comfort zone and the ball gets to the same spot. Thats something to work on.

I'll keep your drill in mind. Thanks.

Then you really need to work on that drill I mentioned. You were not focused enough, and you need to be able to hit a ball away from your opponent without thinking about it too much because you have done it a thousand times with this drill.

 

[Shroud]

That forehand winner even I remember!
And the lobs were working great for some reason

I did hit a decent amount of winners, but then that was due to the fact that I knew next point I could hit 3 rally balls and I would get the point. No pressure tennis.

You flubbed quite a few volleys. And then there were a few instances where you were mindlessly coming in even on a short cross court approaches.

This is something I am guilty of that I have realized as I play more doubles, not being set before hitting a volley. When practicing/drilling, I split/set and volley. Works brilliantly. While in match play, me Spartacus the tennis warrior is just hell bent on rushing the net and don't set before volleying. Result is ball in the net. Which is something you were doing as well today.

All true! Yeah my volley is great when I dont try to change it yeah some stupid lame approaches. Thanks for the tip PM

 

[Shroud]

Then you really need to work on that drill I mentioned. You were not focused enough, and you need to be able to hit a ball away from your opponent without thinking about it too much because you have done it a thousand times with this drill.

Tried it today, though pretty sure I wasnt doing it right. It just became hitting to the open court and not so much cc shots. Work in progress.

 

[heninfan99]

I'm not sure you can learn much about your game by getting crushed by someone 2 levels higher.

 

[10isfreak]

I'm not sure you can learn much about your game by getting crushed by someone 2 levels higher.

Well, you can acquire a lot of knowledge by playing a much better player -- and it might be of some value. However, as far as your ability to play tennis is concerned, you won't improve by doing that. To improve, you need certain conditions to be met and one of them is to find an appropriate challenge.

Your ideal opponent is marginally better than you, just enough so he keeps you uncomfortable.

 

[Shroud]

I'm not sure you can learn much about your game by getting crushed by someone 2 levels higher.

Not sure where this is coming from.

Papa describes himself as a solid 4.0.

Pretty sure I am not a 3.0

 

[LeeD]

I've hit with both.
Papa is young, strong, super fit, probably less experience than Shroud.
Watching PapaMango rally, I'd think he was a SOLID 4.5, but he says he's 4.0.
Watching Shroud hit, you wonder how he can wear soooo much clothing, and still move around at his size.
Both hit very even.
But for Shroud to use baseline tactics against Papa is useless, so his net play has to be exemplary from approach shot to winning volley, including solid overheads and lots of strong low to half volleys.
For Papa to win easily, baseline bashing with heavy top can do it.
Kinda like what happens to me when I play with President, and what will happen to me when I hit with Matt Lin.

 

[Shroud]

I've hit with both.
Papa is young, strong, super fit, probably less experience than Shroud.
Watching PapaMango rally, I'd think he was a SOLID 4.5, but he says he's 4.0.
Watching Shroud hit, you wonder how he can wear soooo much clothing, and still move around at his size.
Both hit very even.
But for Shroud to use baseline tactics against Papa is useless, so his net play has to be exemplary from approach shot to winning volley, including solid overheads and lots of strong low to half volleys.
For Papa to win easily, baseline bashing with heavy top can do it.
Kinda like what happens to me when I play with President, and what will happen to me when I hit with Matt Lin.

Lol.

I was wearing an elbow brace (rare these days) and was taking it off. Mango saw the 2 long sleeve shirts underneath the tennis warehouse hoodie and commented on how over dressed I was.

I think your assessment is right. FWIW this is a friendly match and I am using it to work on things, like baselining. Which as you mention is not a forte for me. I need to be more patient as I am pretty slow these days. I could move faster if I dressed normally. In theory in important matches I dress normally and gain the benefits of that.

Right now my serve is not good enough to come in on I think. It will get there eventually and be better than it was. My volleys are messed up too from my lessons. I just need to practice them. Need a ball machine for that I think.

Sometimes I think I could work for years and still lose baselining to Mango...

 

[martini1]

I'm not sure you can learn much about your game by getting crushed by someone 2 levels higher.

Well, you can acquire a lot of knowledge by playing a much better player -- and it might be of some value. However, as far as your ability to play tennis is concerned, you won't improve by doing that. To improve, you need certain conditions to be met and one of them is to find an appropriate challenge.

Your ideal opponent is marginally better than you, just enough so he keeps you uncomfortable.

If the better player is willing to give you some advice, it would be totally worth it. You already know he is unbeatable so there is no bitter after taste. And there is no fun for the guy to crush a lower level player. It would get boring 30 min in. I appreciate higher level guys that are willing to play and gives tips here and there.

 

[martini1]

Tried it today, though pretty sure I wasnt doing it right. It just became hitting to the open court and not so much cc shots. Work in progress.

Start will slower balls I suppose. I also usually warm up with a CC only rally. Balls are called out if they go pass the middle line. But remember to recover so you are on the move as well.

 

[Shroud]

Start will slower balls I suppose. I also usually warm up with a CC only rally. Balls are called out if they go pass the middle line. But remember to recover so you are on the move as well.

Ok that helps me a bit I think. Thanks.

 

[LeeD]

I can assure you, and President will attest, if I stayed back on every serve against him, he'd beat me 3's all day, any day of the week.
And if I stayed back when he serves every time, I"m looking at the 2's and 3's.
While there will be some players where no net play or baseline play will get me 3 games, possibly against a tuned Matt Lin, the variety creates doubt, takes away the baseline groove, and forces the backcourt player to constantly adjust to your approach shots and volleys.
Better than you adjusting to his side to side baseline shots.

 

[Shroud]

I can assure you, and President will attest, if I stayed back on every serve against him, he'd beat me 3's all day, any day of the week.
And if I stayed back when he serves every time, I"m looking at the 2's and 3's.
While there will be some players where no net play or baseline play will get me 3 games, possibly against a tuned Matt Lin, the variety creates doubt, takes away the baseline groove, and forces the backcourt player to constantly adjust to your approach shots and volleys.
Better than you adjusting to his side to side baseline shots.

I THINK you are saying to mix it up. Is that what you are saying?

 

[arche3]

I THINK you are saying to mix it up. Is that what you are saying?

No. He is saying he goes 3/6, 3/6 against president on his worse day. Where you got bagel and bread stick???? Or maybe it's papa mango.

 

[LeeD]

President is a darn solid hard hitting and fast moving 4.0, so going 3-6 against him is no disgrace. Plus, he had been practicing at Stanford U with real 4.5's, so he's not pushed by any shots I can ever hit.
However, I"d be slighted by a score like that, by about a turnaround of 3 games for each of us...

 

[arche3]

President is a darn solid hard hitting and fast moving 4.0, so going 3-6 against him is no disgrace. Plus, he had been practicing at Stanford U with real 4.5's, so he's not pushed by any shots I can ever hit.
However, I"d be slighted by a score like that, by about a turnaround of 3 games for each of us...

I have no idea what your tip was that's all. Now I'm more confused. I'll stay out of thread. Carry on. Lol.

 

[LeeD]

Stay IN....
This could be a good discussion on what tactics an IMmobile player can use against a peer who has great wheels, but not necessarily powerful shots.
Hard to beat great wheels AND powerful shots, so we can leave that one alone.
Take your opponent off his groove. Variety, different placements, loop some, underspin some, skid some, all while changing placements so you keep the opponent guessing.
GIVE UP a few points in order to create doubt in the opponent's mind.
Deliberately hit to your opponent's strongest shot, stay out of position, then head for where you KNOW he's going to pummel the shot.
Don't hit two serves the same in a row.
Constantly alternate your return of serves from underspin to topspin, deep to short angles.
Like in baseball, you don't beat a fast ball hitter by throwing fast balls only.

 

[mightyrick]

Stay IN....
This could be a good discussion on what tactics an IMmobile player can use against a peer who has great wheels, but not necessarily powerful shots.
Hard to beat great wheels AND powerful shots, so we can leave that one alone.
Take your opponent off his groove. Variety, different placements, loop some, underspin some, skid some, all while changing placements so you keep the opponent guessing.
GIVE UP a few points in order to create doubt in the opponent's mind.
Deliberately hit to your opponent's strongest shot, stay out of position, then head for where you KNOW he's going to pummel the shot.
Don't hit two serves the same in a row.
Constantly alternate your return of serves from underspin to topspin, deep to short angles.
Like in baseball, you don't beat a fast ball hitter by throwing fast balls only.

Lee, you are saying these things, but there is no instant remedy for Shroud to beat Papa Mango who is at least .5 NTRP higher. He is supposed to get his azz kicked. That's how it works.

The only remedy is developing additional skills, working on patience, working on consistency. That takes time and practice. That's the only way Shroud is going to beat him.

 

[LeeD]

You forget, I"ve played against both those guys.
Shroud has better volleys, when his head is on straight.
Forehands and backhands match up, but Shroud doesn't pick his moments well.
Serves are very close.
Mobility greatly favors PapaMango, speed, agility, change of directions.
So, given that, Papa is favored, but both are still in the realm of 4.0.
PapaM tends to want to stay back and hit heavy topspin shots.
Shroud has more different shots, but doesn't PICK which one to use at the right time, instead tending to just hit the ball the way he WANTS to hit it.
For Shroud to do better, he needs to tighten up his strategy and tactics, make the shots that his level is capable of, be smart above all else, and NOT get into a groundstroke trading pattern or a predictable net game.
Easier said than done? Of course.
For Papa to win, just keep pounding it back, running and preparing early, hit good shots, because those shots should win out in the end.

 

[LeeD]

You have to understand, regardless of your actual level of play, you need correct tactics and strategy, and the willpower to implement it even if you lose a few early points, kinda like the net game.
There is no reason whatsoever I should ever take a set from President. He and I are both mid to lower 4.0's, he hits his forehands more accurately and much harder, he moves waaaaaay faster, his backhand is equal to mine, his first serve equal, his second serve horrible.
And yet, he hasn't gotten more than 3 games off me, and most are not even close.
Remember, I'm the guy you guys always diss for saying I can win more than my share of points against OPEN level women. And I'm 4.0.
You tend to forget, a good shot is a good shot, regardless if it's produced by a 4.0 or a 6.0. If someone hits a forehand at say....75 mph to within 2' of the sideline and 2' from the baseline, it's good enough up to 6.0 levels of play.
If someone, even a 3.5, hits a 97 mph spin serve directly at the body of the recieiver, it's good enough to solicit a weak reply, where the server can take advantage by coming to net position and volleying to the open court, and weaker passing side.
It's SHOTS that win points, not someone's level of "3.5, 4.0" or whatever.
And if that shot is produced by someone who USED to play at higher levels, it's still a good shot at any level of play.

 

[Maximagq]

You have to understand, regardless of your actual level of play, you need correct tactics and strategy, and the willpower to implement it even if you lose a few early points, kinda like the net game.
There is no reason whatsoever I should ever take a set from President. He and I are both mid to lower 4.0's, he hits his forehands more accurately and much harder, he moves waaaaaay faster, his backhand is equal to mine, his first serve equal, his second serve horrible.
And yet, he hasn't gotten more than 3 games off me, and most are not even close.
Remember, I'm the guy you guys always diss for saying I can win more than my share of points against OPEN level women. And I'm 4.0.
You tend to forget, a good shot is a good shot, regardless if it's produced by a 4.0 or a 6.0. If someone hits a forehand at say....75 mph to within 2' of the sideline and 2' from the baseline, it's good enough up to 6.0 levels of play.
If someone, even a 3.5, hits a 97 mph spin serve directly at the body of the recieiver, it's good enough to solicit a weak reply, where the server can take advantage by coming to net position and volleying to the open court, and weaker passing side.
It's SHOTS that win points, not someone's level of "3.5, 4.0" or whatever.
And if that shot is produced by someone who USED to play at higher levels, it's still a good shot at any level of play.

President has a 120+ mph bomb?

 

[LeeD]

He doesn't, but neither do I.
We've already established my serves at best, are 100. I think maybe 110 on a day warmer than 70 degrees, but some of you say it's closer to 94 mph. So let's split the difference, 100 it is. Josh can easily hit into the highest 90's, and with heavy topspin.
What Josh does have is a true 80 mph heavy topspin forehand, that can give problems to real 4.5 level players, even if hit into their forehand sides. And to my dismay, it's rather consistent to boot.
Like some smart guy once mentioned, tennis is not a game of you just hitting your best shots across the court. It also has to involve hitting your shots to your opponent's weaker side, or stronger side, if you know where the next ball is going to go.
I don't believe in picking on a weak point regardless of the situation. I think you have to play the whole court, and use the weaker side only on important points that you HAVE to win.
I also think, based on some of your newer tapes, your serves have progressed beyond 105's, if you choose to hit them.

 

[Topspin Shot]

A consisten 80 mph forehand??? Sign President up for the tour!

 

[LeeD]

While he does hold a western grip, his net clearance is closer to maybe 3-4' over the net, his ball hissing and seemingly oval in shape, to me and to our opponent's in doubles, who are all 4.0 to 4.5's.
I can't explain it. I've already written on this site, "if I had Josh's forehand, I'd really BE a 4.5 even with the way I currently move". But alas, I don't have a forehand anywhere near that time zone.
And as you well know, one huge shot doesn't make you a 4.5 level player. Most important is a second serve, all court coverage, strong volleys and overheads, and an equal BACKhand.

 

[Topspin Shot]

Is President Rafa Nadal? Consistent 80 mph forehand with heavy top and 3-4 feet of clearance?!

 

[Maximagq]

What's holding President back? Just the second serve?