Gigi Fernandez on Serena v Graf/Navratilova.

[Paul Murphy]

If Serena isn't the greatest player to ever live, I don't know who is. There's certainly been great players in history. I just don't know how anyone can match Serena's steely determination and power. I think she would have picked Steffi's backhand apart. Even if Martina (Navratilova) had the equipment and power that Serena has there's just not enough time when you're coming to net for Martina to be hitting volleys off those shots. There's no time to react. Serena as a baseliner would beat Martina from the baseline because she's too powerful. Serena as a baseliner would still beat Martina as a serve-and-volleyer because there's just no time to react. I don't think Martina would have done well against her. I think Serena would have just crushed her. If Serena isn't the greatest player of all time, then I don't know who is.

 

[BTURNER]

I guess we are to assume your OP was a direct quote from Gigi, rather than you opinion, but without a link its hard to know.

 

[Paul Murphy]

I guess we are to assume your OP was a direct quote from Gigi, rather than you opinion, but without a link its hard to know.

Yes indeed, sorry I should have made that clear.
It is a direct quote.

 

[MLRoy]

I don't think Gigi Fernandez is the most logical person in the world. I think she's a bandwagon jumper, who's ruled by her heart more than her head. For example, I read online a month or two ago that she was playing an exhibition. It was supposed to be a mixed doubles match. I don't remember the male players, but the other female was Bartoli. Anyway, Gigi got a little carried away with the "girl power", I guess, and insisted she and Bartoli play against the men. They lost, of course. But that's typical of her type, "feminists". Stuck in that dumb then, dumber now state of wishful thinking of how women can do ANYTHING/EVERYTHING as well or better than men.

Now, she obviously doesn't know Graf played her twice (according to the wta site), and they split those, both 3 setters. So there goes that argument.

As far as Navratilova, though I've never been a big fan of hers, I think she'd definitely have an edge because she had a great all-around game. Her game had much more variety and depth than Serena's. Think of a lefty Roberta Vinci, except more consistant & powerful.

I think Serena would have had even more trouble with Evert and Court. But we'll never know for sure, will we?

 

[TMF]

I like to see Serena use the same racquet as Graf/Martina/Evert use during their days rather than the current advanced Wilson Blade. I'm sure Serena wouldn't generate the same power and her serve wouldn't be as affective as today.

 

[mattosgrant]

I like to see Serena use the same racquet as Graf/Martina/Evert use during their days rather than the current advanced Wilson Blade. I'm sure Serena wouldn't generate the same power and her serve wouldn't be as affective as today.

Yeah Graf that wood racquet player, ROTFL! Martina even used advanced graphite most of her career, and during her entire dominance.

 

[struggle]

I fail to see how anyone could actually argue what Gigi has said here.

I watched them all play alot. Yes, Steffi and Martina were also great, but
my logic can lead me nowhere but to be in agreement with Fernandez.

 

[pat200]

Yeah Graf that wood racquet player, ROTFL! Martina even used advanced graphite most of her career, and during her entire dominance.

can you say with a straight face that serena would win most of the times against graf navi or evert if she played against them in the racket that each and every one of them played in? if you say yes then you have never played with older rackets and do not understand how much of the work rackets nowadays do for the players.

 

[mattosgrant]

can you say with a straight face that serena would win most of the times against graf navi or evert if she played against them in the racket that each and every one of them played in? if you say yes then you have never played with older rackets and do not understand how much of the work rackets nowadays do for the players.

The racquets Navratilova and Graf played with were great racquets, and yes I have held racquets of the 90s. Now Evert you would have a case on, but she played with the perfect racquet and era for her game generally (and to her credit showed she could adapt later too).

 

[pat200]

they played with great racquets yes of course, but they do not compare with what today's racquets can create. serena is a phenomenal tennis player and sits rightfully so with graf evert navratilova and court as the goat contenders but to say she would crush them is ridiculous, even more so when a supposed former tennis professional says so.

 

[scotus]

Graf had a super consistent slice backhand. That backhand would not break down. Also, she was faster than Serena and could match her in the mental strength department.

Martina would need a bigger and better serve to S&V against Serena.

 

[mattosgrant]

they played with great racquets yes of course, but they do not compare with what today's racquets can create. serena is a phenomenal tennis player and sits rightfully so with graf evert navratilova and court as the goat contenders but to say she would crush them is ridiculous, even more so when a supposed former tennis professional says so.

I didn't say she would crush them. Gigi did. I do think Serena over a series of matches would have the edge vs anyone though, even with the same equipment.

 

[mattosgrant]

Graf had a super consistent slice backhand. That backhand would not break down. Also, she was faster than Serena and could match her in the mental strength department.

Martina would need a bigger and better serve to S&V against Serena.

I think Graf's mentality is a bit overrated. She was very mentally tough when things were going her way and she felt like the stronger player. She was definitely good at handling being the favorite, and rarely caved to pressure in that respect. However when her opponents stood up to her and turned it into a battle of wills, and showed they weren't intimidated by her power, athleticsm, and status, she could crumble somewhat. It happened a number of times to Sanchez Vicario who beat her in a number of big matches, some of those with Graf blowing leads. It happened to Seles pre stabbing, when at the business end of the closer matches Seles was almost always tougher at crunch moments with Graf being the one to falter at those stages somewhat, with Graf usually only winning fairly easily (her wins at the 91 U.S Hard court Championships and 92 Wimbledon). It happened when playing Davenport at the end of her career, when she seemed intimidated by Davenport's firepower and lack of reverence or fear of Graf. Looking at her rivalry with Navratilova she doesn't even seem significantly stronger mentally. Graf is the one who faltered mentally in the 86 U.S Open, 91 U.S Open, and to lesser degree 87 Wimbledon and 87 U.S Open (particularly at the end of the crucial 1st sets of both matches), with Navratilova faltering mentally only in the 87 French and 89 U.S Open matches really. I remember @helterskelter bringing this point up in a debate 15 years ago, and I think he might have some further points to add on this topic.

Of course she was very mentally tough when playing say Sabatini, Novotna, Capriati, Mary Joe Fernandez, Martinez, older Evert. Those women were intimidated by Graf, recognized they were outgunned (without the bluster and refusal to accept the obvious like Sanchez), and she felt it from the moment they stepped on court, or even if they tried to serve out a set or match against her.

 

[Navdeep Srivastava]

Graf had a super consistent slice backhand. That backhand would not break down. Also, she was faster than Serena and could match her in the mental strength department.

Martina would need a bigger and better serve to S&V against Serena.

You just have to look to 93 AO final where Seles who also played power game like Serena destroyed Graf slice, speed and playing style. Serena is a very bad match up for Graf in any surface. Martina is different, she had more weapons, she could have handled Serena much better.

 

[scotus]

You just have to look to 93 AO final where Seles who also played power game like Serena destroyed Graf slice, speed and playing style. Serena is a very bad match up for Graf in any surface. Martina is different, she had more weapons, she could have handled Serena much better.

Seles hit much earlier (on the rise and closer to the baseline) than Serena and much sharper angles than Serena. Seles and Serena do not exactly play the same type of game.

 

[TMF]

You just have to look to 93 AO final where Seles who also played power game like Serena destroyed Graf slice, speed and playing style. Serena is a very bad match up for Graf in any surface. Martina is different, she had more weapons, she could have handled Serena much better.

One player doesn't represent the entire playing field. Graf was more dominant than Serena.

Best annual singles winning percentage
1 Martina Navratilova 98.9
2 Steffi Graf 97.7
3 Martina Navratilova 97.5
4 Steffi Graf 97.4
5 Martina Navratilova 96.8
6 Martina Navratilova 96.7
7 Steffi Graf 96
8 Margaret Court 95.3
9 Serena Williams 95.1
10 Chris Evert 94.9

Besides, Seles is an all time great, not some slouch like we have in the WTA today. That's like penalizing Evert for losing to Martina, or vice-versa during their earlier career. Serena doesn't have an all time great player in her era and yet you see she struggle against them. If losing to Seles is bad, what does that say about Serena losing to Vinci who was ranked #43 at the USO.

 

[PDJ]

Yeah Graf that wood racquet player, ROTFL! Martina even used advanced graphite most of her career, and during her entire dominance.

In fairness, though it seemed great at the time, thinking about a max200g just makes my elbow ache

 

[Navdeep Srivastava]

One player doesn't represent the entire playing field. Graf was more dominant than Serena.

Best annual singles winning percentage
1 Martina Navratilova 98.9
2 Steffi Graf 97.7
3 Martina Navratilova 97.5
4 Steffi Graf 97.4
5 Martina Navratilova 96.8
6 Martina Navratilova 96.7
7 Steffi Graf 96
8 Margaret Court 95.3
9 Serena Williams 95.1
10 Chris Evert 94.9

Besides, Seles is an all time great, not some slouch like we have in the WTA today. That's like penalizing Evert for losing to Martina, or vice-versa during their earlier career. Serena doesn't have an all time great player in her era and yet you see she struggle against them. If losing to Seles is bad, what does that say about Serena losing to Vinci who was ranked #43 at the USO.

Put it this way if Graf was playing today her style would not have allowed to play into slam final at the age of 34+.
Serena never faced all time great granted, but she faced more depth like Sharapova, Davenport, Cap, Venus, Henin, Hingis, Clister . They all are 3to 7 slam winners and I am not talking about 1 or 2 slam winners like Bartoli or Li na . Serena outlived her competition and she faced them when they were in prime.
Now point me how many Graf faced in prime , old age Martina, Seles was on 8 slam as 19 year old but was stabbed , she literally didn't have a competition from 93 RG to 96 Us open in her prime years.
Serena never got this in prime years but when she became 29 years old , a age where Graf stop winning and 31 year old retired.
What Serena is doing at after 30 is marvellous.

 

[PDJ]

Put it this way if Graf was playing today her style would not allowed to play into slam final at the age of 34+.
Serena never faced all time great granted, but she faced more depth like Sharapova, Davenport, Cap, Venus, Henin, Hingis, Cluster. They all are 3to 7 slam winners and I am not talking about 1 or 2 slam winners like Bartoli or Li na . Serena outlived her competition and she face them when they were in prime.
Now point me how many Graf faced in prime , old age Martina, Seles was on 8 slam as 19 year old but was stabbed , she literally don't have a competition from 93 RG to 96 Us open in her prime years.
Serena never got this in prime years but when she became 29 years old , a age where Graf stop winning and 31 year old retired.
What Serena is doing at after 30 is marvellous.

I don't understand your penultimate sentence? Are you saying Graf stopped winning at age 29 & retired 2 years later?

 

[Navdeep Srivastava]

I don't understand your penultimate sentence? Are you saying Graf stopped winning at age 29 & retired 2 years later?

I was replying to TMF who is counting Vinci loss against Serena when she is 34 and she never faced competition.

 

[PDJ]

I was replying to TMF who is counting Vinci loss against Serena when she is 34 and she never faced competition.

OK.
Serena has certainly faced some great players - although only Graf from the top tier- but not in recent years. She's too good, and the rest are inconsistent day in day out. It's all rather a bore, sadly.
Seems like she'll be number one for ever!

 

[scotus]

I think Graf's mentality is a bit overrated. She was very mentally tough when things were going her way and she felt like the stronger player. She was definitely good at handling being the favorite, and rarely caved to pressure in that respect. However when her opponents stood up to her and turned it into a battle of wills, and showed they weren't intimidated by her power, athleticsm, and status, she could crumble somewhat.

The same could be said about Serena's mental strength.

 

[Man of steel]

Since when are venus and henin not considered all time great players. At their best they would beat any other of the all time greats.

 

[Man of steel]

Graf had a super consistent slice backhand. That backhand would not break down. Also, she was faster than Serena and could match her in the mental strength department.

Martina would need a bigger and better serve to S&V against Serena.

I don't know about speed but graf had better footwork. Serena has to deal with extra power in todays game compared to graf. Players are blasting forehands and backhands compared to what graf was dealing with. And serena get to most balls just fine.
And in the case of grafs backhand slice i highly doubt she would be using it as a regular shot in todays game.
She was susceptible to leaving her forehand side too exposed because she was always closer to her backhand side. She made up for it with her speed when running to her forehand...but that was due to the lack of players with decent backhands in her day. Most players would expose her court positioning if she leaves the forehand side too exposed. Especially serena who has one of the greatest backhands(and the greatest BHDTL) in the womens game.
One of the biggest changes in the womens game since the late 90's is the increase in quality of the backhand side. Every great player in the last 16-18 years have had great to amazing backhands

 

[scotus]

I don't know about speed but graf had better footwork. Serena has to deal with extra power in todays game compared to graf. Players are blasting forehands and backhands compared to what graf was dealing with. And serena get to most balls just fine.
And in the case of grafs backhand slice i highly doubt she would be using it as a regular shot in todays game.
She was susceptible to leaving her forehand side too exposed because she was always closer to her backhand side. She made up for it with her speed when running to her forehand...but that was due to the lack of players with decent backhands in her day. Most players would expose her court positioning if she leaves the forehand side too exposed. Especially serena who has one of the greatest backhands(and the greatest BHDTL) in the womens game.
One of the biggest changes in the womens game since the late 90's is the increase in quality of the backhand side. Every great player in the last 16-18 years have had great to amazing backhands

Richard, who was never shy about praising his daughters' supreme tennis talent, once likened Graf to a thoroughbred race horse and Venus/Serena to a couple of mules in comparison to Graf's speed. Well, that's of course an exaggeration but it gets the point across regarding Graf's speed, especially when his own daughters were among the fastest already.

Regarding the court positioning and the improved backhand, it's a strategy employed quite often in the men's game as well. Do you think Rafa and Roger cover more of their backhand side because the rest of the ATP do not have great backhands?

 

[mattosgrant]

Richard, who was never shy about praising his daughters' supreme tennis talent, once likened Graf to a thoroughbred race horse and Venus/Serena to a couple of mules in comparison to Graf's speed. Well, that's of course an exaggeration but it gets the point across regarding Graf's speed, especially when his own daughters were among the fastest already.

Richard says a lot of crazy things just to gain attention and being the nut he is. I wouldn't read too much into any of his quotes. After the 97 U.S Open semi debacle he thrashed Spirlea to the press, yet they were joking around and hugging backstage several times in 98 and 99.

 

[Man of steel]

Richard, who was never shy about praising his daughters' supreme tennis talent, once likened Graf to a thoroughbred race horse and Venus/Serena to a couple of mules in comparison to Graf's speed. Well, that's of course an exaggeration but it gets the point across regarding Graf's speed, especially when his own daughters were among the fastest already.

Regarding the court positioning and the improved backhand, it's a strategy employed quite often in the men's game as well. Do you think Rafa and Roger cover more of their backhand side because the rest of the ATP do not have great backhands?

Old Richard says a lot of weird things. I wouldn't read much into that....
considering graf was the literally the only decent athlete compared to the rest of her generation...compared to serena who has contended with amazing athletes through her years of playing. Times have completely changed. Where players are hitting forehands faster than their serves sometimes and still being able to get to the ball.

Well fed and nadal don't have as weak a backhand drive as graf do. The may still cover that side slightly more because their backhands are still not as good as their forehand. And its easier to hit a forehand even if your slightly out of position than hitting a backhand when your out of position.

 

[Navdeep Srivastava]

Lol Rafa and Fed don't have weak Backhand in general but their backhand is weak in comparison to heiwtt, Safin, Nalbandian, Davy and Novak and even then Fed bh slice are very best.

 

[boredone3456]

Just a few things based on what I've read

1. Serena would of course hold her own against Court/Graf/Evert/Nav. She has to many weapons not to win matches against all of them. However they also all have enough weapons to win matches against her. Grafs speed, versatile forehand, cutting slice and ability to hit on the run would combine to make for a battle against Serena. Court and Nav were fast with well placed if not powerful serves and could follow them to net. Dementieva had a garbage serve but she still beat Serena 5 times out of 12 so to say Nav and Court couldn't is just wrong. Evert was as tough if not tougher mentally than Serena and she would never give up after losing a set like so many of Serena's current opponents seem to.

2. Serena is mentally tough however she also has had opponents choke horribly against her. None of the other big 5 ladies choked very often so Serena would have to earn every single win. Also, she hit's a lot of errors and makes up for it with winners and her opponents errors. The other big 5 ladies were not error bots which makes every single Serena UE more costly. Serena would need to find ways to make them hit errors or hit even more winners, or play more tactically to cut her own numbers down. She's not just going to mow them down and intimidate them. Plus Evert in particular was good as drawing forced errors from her opponents, something else that would trouble Serena.

3. Serena has never really played a top class S&V player. The closest she really came were in the likes of Hingis, Henin when she would volley, and Venus/Davenport at times. However the later 2 preferred to battle Serena from the baseline. Court and Nav were masters of the art and Serena would need to adjust to that and really learn what Evert mastered, the controlled passing shot or lob. Serena coukd definitely do it but those aren't shots she currently has to hit all the time so it would take time...and those were 2 women who could anticipate them to boot.

Yes, Serena is good, very good. But so were these other ladies and Serena would need to bring her best every single time to get an edge, because you know they woukd bring theirs. I think they would be epic battles...if they were possible.

 

[Navdeep Srivastava]

Just a few things based on what I've read

1. Serena would of course hold her own against Court/Graf/Evert/Nav. She has to many weapons not to win matches against all of them. However they also all have enough weapons to win matches against her. Grafs speed, versatile forehand, cutting slice and ability to hit on the run would combine to make for a battle against Serena. Court and Nav were fast with well placed if not powerful serves and could follow them to net. Dementieva had a garbage serve but she still beat Serena 5 times out of 12 so to say Nav and Court couldn't is just wrong. Evert was as tough if not tougher mentally than Serena and she would never give up after losing a set like so many of Serena's current opponents seem to.

2. Serena is mentally tough however she also has had opponents choke horribly against her. None of the other big 5 ladies choked very often so Serena would have to earn every single win. Also, she hit's a lot of errors and makes up for it with winners and her opponents errors. The other big 5 ladies were not error bots which makes every single Serena UE more costly. Serena would need to find ways to make them hit errors or hit even more winners, or play more tactically to cut her own numbers down. She's not just going to mow them down and intimidate them. Plus Evert in particular was good as drawing forced errors from her opponents, something else that would trouble Serena.

3. Serena has never really played a top class S&V player. The closest she really came were in the likes of Hingis, Henin when she would volley, and Venus/Davenport at times. However the later 2 preferred to battle Serena from the baseline. Court and Nav were masters of the art and Serena would need to adjust to that and really learn what Evert mastered, the controlled passing shot or lob. Serena coukd definitely do it but those aren't shots she currently has to hit all the time so it would take time...and those were 2 women who could anticipate them to boot.

Yes, Serena is good, very good. But so were these other ladies and Serena would need to bring her best every single time to get an edge, because you know they woukd bring theirs. I think they would be epic battles...if they were possible.

Nav and Evert have many weapons and their S& V style will be more than enough to handle Serena, the point was about Graf and her struggle at AO 93 make me wonder how will she go against more powerful baseliner Serena.
I am sure Graf was talented enough to change her style and can conquer Serena but it will not be a landslide victory like Graf fans are claiming, Serena is one of the great for a reason.

 

[Navdeep Srivastava]

@boredone3456 wonderful post and you covered every point.

 

[PDJ]

Just a few things based on what I've read

1. Serena would of course hold her own against Court/Graf/Evert/Nav. She has to many weapons not to win matches against all of them. However they also all have enough weapons to win matches against her. Grafs speed, versatile forehand, cutting slice and ability to hit on the run would combine to make for a battle against Serena. Court and Nav were fast with well placed if not powerful serves and could follow them to net. Dementieva had a garbage serve but she still beat Serena 5 times out of 12 so to say Nav and Court couldn't is just wrong. Evert was as tough if not tougher mentally than Serena and she would never give up after losing a set like so many of Serena's current opponents seem to.

2. Serena is mentally tough however she also has had opponents choke horribly against her. None of the other big 5 ladies choked very often so Serena would have to earn every single win. Also, she hit's a lot of errors and makes up for it with winners and her opponents errors. The other big 5 ladies were not error bots which makes every single Serena UE more costly. Serena would need to find ways to make them hit errors or hit even more winners, or play more tactically to cut her own numbers down. She's not just going to mow them down and intimidate them. Plus Evert in particular was good as drawing forced errors from her opponents, something else that would trouble Serena.

3. Serena has never really played a top class S&V player. The closest she really came were in the likes of Hingis, Henin when she would volley, and Venus/Davenport at times. However the later 2 preferred to battle Serena from the baseline. Court and Nav were masters of the art and Serena would need to adjust to that and really learn what Evert mastered, the controlled passing shot or lob. Serena coukd definitely do it but those aren't shots she currently has to hit all the time so it would take time...and those were 2 women who could anticipate them to boot.

Yes, Serena is good, very good. But so were these other ladies and Serena would need to bring her best every single time to get an edge, because you know they woukd bring theirs. I think they would be epic battles...if they were possible.

Great post.
I would just add that Evert cd also draw Williams forward, a tactic rarely employed by most of her current competitors, but both Vinci and Kerber demonstrated that she can be vulnerable when brought to the net not on her own terms.

 

[boredone3456]

Great post.
I would just add that Evert cd also draw Williams forward, a tactic rarely employed by most of her current competitors, but both Vinci and Kerber demonstrated that she can be vulnerable when brought to the net not on her own terms.

Great point. One of Everts strong tactical weapons was her ability to drop and pass or drop and lob her opponents to wear them out and wrong foot them. Serena has never had to deal with that, and Everts drop shots were good. They tend to be ignored because of her being the master of the lob, but against Serena those tactics would almost certainly come into play.

 

[Man of steel]

Just a few things based on what I've read

1. Serena would of course hold her own against Court/Graf/Evert/Nav. She has to many weapons not to win matches against all of them. However they also all have enough weapons to win matches against her. Grafs speed, versatile forehand, cutting slice and ability to hit on the run would combine to make for a battle against Serena. Court and Nav were fast with well placed if not powerful serves and could follow them to net. Dementieva had a garbage serve but she still beat Serena 5 times out of 12 so to say Nav and Court couldn't is just wrong. Evert was as tough if not tougher mentally than Serena and she would never give up after losing a set like so many of Serena's current opponents seem to.

2. Serena is mentally tough however she also has had opponents choke horribly against her. None of the other big 5 ladies choked very often so Serena would have to earn every single win. Also, she hit's a lot of errors and makes up for it with winners and her opponents errors. The other big 5 ladies were not error bots which makes every single Serena UE more costly. Serena would need to find ways to make them hit errors or hit even more winners, or play more tactically to cut her own numbers down. She's not just going to mow them down and intimidate them. Plus Evert in particular was good as drawing forced errors from her opponents, something else that would trouble Serena.

3. Serena has never really played a top class S&V player. The closest she really came were in the likes of Hingis, Henin when she would volley, and Venus/Davenport at times. However the later 2 preferred to battle Serena from the baseline. Court and Nav were masters of the art and Serena would need to adjust to that and really learn what Evert mastered, the controlled passing shot or lob. Serena coukd definitely do it but those aren't shots she currently has to hit all the time so it would take time...and those were 2 women who could anticipate them to boot.

Yes, Serena is good, very good. But so were these other ladies and Serena would need to bring her best every single time to get an edge, because you know they woukd bring theirs. I think they would be epic battles...if they were possible.

1. Dementieva was competitve because she had an amazing offence and defence game. she was great off the ground and one of the most athletic players ever in the Wta. Having a great baseline game mixed with a great return will trouble serena more than any S&V game.

2. None of the other top 5 had the depth that there is today....so they rarely had players to choke against them.....you'd never get a player as good as camila giorgi in the first round 30-40 years ago who could blast you off the court...players back then sleepwalked their first couple rounds...because they could barely be considered as pro players compared to todays players.
They weren't error bots because they had far more time on the ball to choose which shots to hit. Most if not all of their rallies weren't as fast pace as todays game where players rarely have time to react...its a different game, different era....


3. Thats more to do with the fact that S&V is pretty much died out...due to a multitude of reasons. Since when was hingis coming close to being a S&V. Far from it.....
The latter 2.......more like all 4 that you mentioned.....they all battled against serena on the baseline because they like her, could hit winners from anywhere on the court. Especially when players have better returns in todays game, S&V is just not going to happen on a regular basis the way that that Nav and Court did in todays game...rackets, surface and increase in athleticism just wouldn't allow it.

 

[Mr.Lob]

"If Serena isn't the greatest player of all time, then I don't know who is."

Who would beat who is open for debate. That's called the best player of all time. But currently Graf holds more slams, a grand slam, and a golden slam... so she is the greatest player of all time.

Serena's so called mental strength abandoned her against Vinci and Kerber. And Serena has never had to face off consistently against a tier one great. All time mental strength goat goes to Chris Evert.

 

[DMan]

I think Graf's mentality is a bit overrated. She was very mentally tough when things were going her way and she felt like the stronger player. She was definitely good at handling being the favorite, and rarely caved to pressure in that respect. However when her opponents stood up to her and turned it into a battle of wills, and showed they weren't intimidated by her power, athleticsm, and status, she could crumble somewhat.

Oh please! Exactly how many times did Graf lose between 1987-1996, and how does that compare with a decade of losses for Navratilova, Evert, or Serena, the only ones who had careers where they were at or near the top for that long? No player is invincible, and EVERY player suffers from crises of confidence, and bad losses. While Graf is no exception, to even suggest Graf's mental strength is overrated is simply ludicrous. And naturally comes from a Selestial.

It happened a number of times to Sanchez Vicario who beat her in a number of big matches, some of those with Graf blowing leads.

Graf lost to Sanchez 8 times. The first was the 1989 French, when yup, Graf blew a 5-3 lead against a player she was heavily favored to beat. I won't mention Graf had menstrual cramps and Arantxa just kept blooping the ball back. And Graf blew a leads in Hamburg and Canada in 1994. What does that mean, Graf choked? Yup. And name another top player who DIDN'T choke!

It happened to Seles pre stabbing, when at the business end of the closer matches Seles was almost always tougher at crunch moments with Graf being the one to falter at those stages somewhat,

Yes, it's always the stabbing with Selestials. Anyhoo, pre-stabbing, Graf was 6-4 vs Seles. Two wins came in 1990, when Seles won 6-4,6-3 in Germany and 7-6,6-4 in Paris. The only time one could say Seles was "tougher at the business end of a close match" was the 1992 French. When #1 Seles barely held off her "weaker" rival Graf, 10-8 in the third. A #1 player forced to eek out a win over "weaker" #2 rival? Hmmmm.... tis true. But one match does make for a very forceful case. Then again, just how tough was Monica in the business end (or beginning or middle) of their 1992 Wimbledon final?

with Graf usually only winning fairly easily (her wins at the 91 U.S Hard court Championships and 92 Wimbledon).

Yes, Wimbledon was such an inconsequential tournament. And very easy win.

It happened when playing Davenport at the end of her career, when she seemed intimidated by Davenport's firepower and lack of reverence or fear of Graf.

Wait, are you talking about Lindsay Davenport, who was ranked ahead of Graf from 1998 onward, and was exactly 2-2 vs Graf in their last 4 matches?

Looking at her rivalry with Navratilova she doesn't even seem significantly stronger mentally. Graf is the one who faltered mentally in the 86 U.S Open, 91 U.S Open, and to lesser degree 87 Wimbledon and 87 U.S Open (particularly at the end of the crucial 1st sets of both matches), with Navratilova faltering mentally only in the 87 French and 89 U.S Open matches really.

Be careful if you want to talk about Martina and choking. Did Graf have a match point int he 1986 US Open semi? Yup. She missed a backhand by 1/2 inch. How terribly choky of Steffi as a 16 year old!! The 1991 US Open semi? Martina led the whole way, and nearly choked in the end. The 1987 Wimbledon final? Steffi's first on grass, Martina was a 7 time champ. The match was 7-5,6-3.

I remember @helterskelter bringing this point up in a debate 15 years ago, and I think he might have some further points to add on this topic.

Of course she was very mentally tough when playing say Sabatini, Novotna, Capriati, Mary Joe Fernandez, Martinez, older Evert. Those women were intimidated by Graf, recognized they were outgunned (without the bluster and refusal to accept the obvious like Sanchez), and she felt it from the moment they stepped on court, or even if they tried to serve out a set or match against her.

Graf had a career H2H advantage against every rival, save Navratilova, who she was 9-9. Thanks to Martina continually choking away and losing matches prior to facing Graf. And of course avoiding Steffi at all costs on clay!

So your point exactly was.....?????.....NOTHING. Yup, got it!

 

[Dolgopolov85]

I think Graf's mentality is a bit overrated. She was very mentally tough when things were going her way and she felt like the stronger player. She was definitely good at handling being the favorite, and rarely caved to pressure in that respect. However when her opponents stood up to her and turned it into a battle of wills, and showed they weren't intimidated by her power, athleticsm, and status, she could crumble somewhat. It happened a number of times to Sanchez Vicario who beat her in a number of big matches, some of those with Graf blowing leads. It happened to Seles pre stabbing, when at the business end of the closer matches Seles was almost always tougher at crunch moments with Graf being the one to falter at those stages somewhat, with Graf usually only winning fairly easily (her wins at the 91 U.S Hard court Championships and 92 Wimbledon). It happened when playing Davenport at the end of her career, when she seemed intimidated by Davenport's firepower and lack of reverence or fear of Graf. Looking at her rivalry with Navratilova she doesn't even seem significantly stronger mentally. Graf is the one who faltered mentally in the 86 U.S Open, 91 U.S Open, and to lesser degree 87 Wimbledon and 87 U.S Open (particularly at the end of the crucial 1st sets of both matches), with Navratilova faltering mentally only in the 87 French and 89 U.S Open matches really. I remember @helterskelter bringing this point up in a debate 15 years ago, and I think he might have some further points to add on this topic.

Of course she was very mentally tough when playing say Sabatini, Novotna, Capriati, Mary Joe Fernandez, Martinez, older Evert. Those women were intimidated by Graf, recognized they were outgunned (without the bluster and refusal to accept the obvious like Sanchez), and she felt it from the moment they stepped on court, or even if they tried to serve out a set or match against her.

In short, she was a lot like Federer. I think Seles was A-1 when it comes to mental toughness. Serena's clutchness is more of the Sampras variety. She has DAT serve and can rely on it to bail her out of trouble. Not making light of that, just that Seles used to unrelentingly pursue her tactics no matter what. She was rarely in doubt once she found her range. She actually lost the first set at AO 93 but turned it around so convincingly that people now remember it as a comprehensive pasting rather than the tough three setter that it was. Graf wanted to be able to play her game and cruise. When that didn't happen, she would fret and get frustrated. And like Fed, she was brilliant when she had nothing to lose, i.e. facing match points. That's when she would start swinging freely again and bounce back.

 

[mxmx]

I like to see Serena use the same racquet as Graf/Martina/Evert use during their days rather than the current advanced Wilson Blade. I'm sure Serena wouldn't generate the same power and her serve wouldn't be as affective as today.

I don't actually believe the blade would have so much more power than the rackets of especially Navratilova. Perhaps more spin and control due to the thin frame, headlightness balance and better strings.

 

[mxmx]

they played with great racquets yes of course, but they do not compare with what today's racquets can create. serena is a phenomenal tennis player and sits rightfully so with graf evert navratilova and court as the goat contenders but to say she would crush them is ridiculous, even more so when a supposed former tennis professional says so.

I believe the level and talent these players were at that they would hit the balls so cleanly that the type of racket they use would only make a marginal difference, not enough to halt the talent, power and career Serena had and is having.

 

[mxmx]

"If Serena isn't the greatest player of all time, then I don't know who is."

Who would beat who is open for debate. That's called the best player of all time. But currently Graf holds more slams, a grand slam, and a golden slam... so she is the greatest player of all time.

Serena's so called mental strength abandoned her against Vinci and Kerber. And Serena has never had to face off consistently against a tier one great. All time mental strength goat goes to Chris Evert.

Perhaps Sharapova/Venus would have been that tier one great if it weren't for Serena...

 

[Mr.Lob]

Perhaps Sharapova/Venus would have been that tier one great if it weren't for Serena...

Doesn't work that way. Evert couldn't keep Navratilova from being tier 1. Fed couldn't keep Nadal or Djoker from tier 1. Tier 1 isn't dependent on the quality of opposition.

 

[pat200]

I believe the level and talent these players were at that they would hit the balls so cleanly that the type of racket they use would only make a marginal difference, not enough to halt the talent, power and career Serena had and is having.

that is what you "believe" but i have actually played with all those racquets and i can personally attest that there is a difference.

 

[Dedans Penthouse]

......................

 

[Dedans Penthouse]

One player doesn't represent the entire playing field. Graf was more dominant than Serena.

Besides, Seles is an all time great, not some slouch like we have in the WTA today. That's like penalizing Evert for losing to Martina, or vice-versa during their earlier career. Serena doesn't have an all time great player in her era and yet you see she struggle against them. If losing to Seles is bad, what does that say about Serena losing to Vinci who was ranked #43 at the USO.

Logic

Emotion​

 

[Dedans Penthouse]

>
Gigi Fernandez on Serena v Graf/Navratilova.

One player doesn't represent the entire playing field. Graf was more dominant than Serena.

You know I just gave this thread title some thought #1 poster, and you know what?

Gigi Fernandez on Serena, or Graf, or Navratilova is so over your head..............and on so many levels.​

 

[mxmx]

that is what you "believe" but i have actually played with all those racquets and i can personally attest that there is a difference.

I have played with Graf's Dunlop, Chang's Prince as well as various other old school pure graphite rackets. I also have played with numerous wilson blades (one of the best rackets ever). Modern rackets are better but not as much as everyone else are making them to be. Pro players are so good that the difference to them will be less aside from headsize or perhaps wood frames. The rackets on topic are not thát much worse than modern frames. The rackets may annoy them more than it would affect their performance. The "feel" not always that great.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/inde...rticle-and-how-it-affects-the-players.311801/

 

[PDJ]

I have played with Graf's Dunlop, Chang's Prince as well as various other old school pure graphite rackets. I also have played with numerous wilson blades (one of the best rackets ever). Modern rackets are better but not as much as everyone else are making them to be. Pro players are so good that the difference to them will be less aside from headsize or perhaps wood frames. The rackets on topic are not thát much worse than modern frames. The rackets may annoy them more than it would affect their performance. The "feel" not always that great.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/inde...rticle-and-how-it-affects-the-players.311801/

Have you played with a Maxply Fort or Chris Evert Autograph?
I played a charity event with the former and it's a massive difference.
The big servers suffered the most. Touch players, the least.

 

[hoodjem]

I like to see Serena use the same racquet as Graf/Martina/Evert use during their days rather than the current advanced Wilson Blade. I'm sure Serena wouldn't generate the same power and her serve wouldn't be as affective as today.

Didn’t Graf and Evert (after 1985 or so) use the Wilson Pro Staff 6.0 original?
Wasn’t Martina using a graphite Yonex in the mid to later 80s?

effective

 

[Dane_is_Finnish_OJ]

This is a really good thread.I still think that Graf would be the superior player if they had the same raquet and especially string technology. But what about Seles vs Serena? This has not been discussed yet. I think that Seles would actually outpower Serena on the the groundstrokes because she was so good at taking the ball early. She had an amazing ability to throw everything back at her opponent at even greater speed. Still think that Graf is the best female player ever, though.,

 

[clout]

Graf's consistency and domination over the entire field for like 10 years straight will never be matched. Steffi also dominated ALL three surfaces along with indoor carpet (6 slams on clay, 7 on grass, 9 on hard and 5 WTFs on carpet). She also won the golden calendar slam which is honestly the greatest achievement any tennis player can have. To give everyone an idea on how impressive winning the calendar slam is, the calendar slam is pretty much the only reason why some ppl still consider Laver to be superior to players like Fedal.

I think Serena's the "best" women's player ever as she'd beat anyone peak for peak, but Graf is still the "greatest" women's player of all time as she's had the most successful career statistically.