Gilbert Comments About Maria Playing Junior Boys

D

dirtballer

Professional
Brad Gilbert commented this morning about watching Maria Sharapova playing the top junior boys at the tennis academy last winter. He seemed to indicate they were beating her pretty regularly. I know people on this board have indicated that the level of play on the women's tour is somewhere between college Division 1 and Division 2. If you assume the top juniors at the academies are Division 1 level talent, this would seem to be true.
 
You will find no sport on earth at which women can beat top junior boys (teenagers). Not one.

I've seen this experiment in soccer and hockey in particular. In those two in particular there is a physical component that the women can't match. In addition, and particularly related to tennis, the boys are much better athletes, cover more ground and hit/strike/shoot much harder.
 
Someone will come along and throw King/Riggs into this thread...I am sure of that....

I have to agree with CyBorg
 
Wouldn't surpise me. Although I dunno, I feel like Mauresmo or JHH would fare better agiainst top junior dudes because of the variety. If this is true, then I;m sure Masha was just smacking at the baseline until the dude could put away the winner
 
How old were these top jr boys?

dirtballer said:
Brad Gilbert commented this morning about watching Maria Sharapova playing the top junior boys at the tennis academy last winter. He seemed to indicate they were beating her pretty regularly. I know people on this board have indicated that the level of play on the women's tour is somewhere between college Division 1 and Division 2. If you assume the top juniors at the academies are Division 1 level talent, this would seem to be true.
Click to expand...

That's the question. I think top 14's could beat the number one woman's player.

!6's and 18's boys would be handing out bagels to Serena and Venus.
 
I think it has more to do with the particular guys with whom she has chosen to play. Nick B. probably had those juniors play with her because of their style of play being problematic for Maria. In any case, a reality check for you wta bashers- Henin and Dulko have routinely beaten guys in practice matches and Jankovic used to hussle her male peers at Nick B's academy for money. Jankovic also allegedly beat well known atp pros in practice matches. The wta bashers who choose to take a one or two line statement from Brad Gilbert and warp it to mean that the top wta players can't beat junior boys are mistaken. Maria was likely trying out new things, that she has not yet mastered, in competitive situations with specific junior males, who are not bothered by those things, in order to improve her game. This is common in training academies. I wish that Gilbert had elaborated more on the subject because I knew people on this board were going to twist his brief statement into something that is not true.
 
tennissavy said:
I think it has more to do with the particular guys with whom she has chosen to play. Nick B. probably had those juniors play with her because of their style of play being problematic for Maria. In any case, a reality check for you wta bashers- Henin and Dulko have routinely beaten guys in practice matches and Jankovic used to hussle her male peers at Nick B's academy for money. Jankovic also allegedly beat well known atp pros in practice matches. The wta bashers who choose to take a one or two line statement from Brad Gilbert and warp it to mean that the top wta players can't beat junior boys are mistaken. Maria was likely trying out new things, that she has not yet mastered, in competitive situations with specific junior males, who are not bothered by those things, in order to improve her game. This is common in training academies. I wish that Gilbert had elaborated more on the subject because I knew people on this board were going to twist his brief statement into something that is not true.
Click to expand...

QFT

Hit it right on the head. But I do think that Maria would still get beaten by some of the top junior boys even if she wasn't trying anything new.
 
It is a well-established fact that most men who post here can beat Sharapova due to the variety in their game, their small-headed racquets, and the lessons from the Tennis Tips section.
 
uh oh...

CyBorg said:
You will find no sport on earth at which women can beat top junior boys (teenagers). Not one.

I've seen this experiment in soccer and hockey in particular. In those two in particular there is a physical component that the women can't match. In addition, and particularly related to tennis, the boys are much better athletes, cover more ground and hit/strike/shoot much harder.
Click to expand...

get ready for about a billion emails from the offended feminists...
 
tennissavy said:
I think it has more to do with the particular guys with whom she has chosen to play. Nick B. probably had those juniors play with her because of their style of play being problematic for Maria. In any case, a reality check for you wta bashers- Henin and Dulko have routinely beaten guys in practice matches and Jankovic used to hussle her male peers at Nick B's academy for money. Jankovic also allegedly beat well known atp pros in practice matches. The wta bashers who choose to take a one or two line statement from Brad Gilbert and warp it to mean that the top wta players can't beat junior boys are mistaken. Maria was likely trying out new things, that she has not yet mastered, in competitive situations with specific junior males, who are not bothered by those things, in order to improve her game. This is common in training academies. I wish that Gilbert had elaborated more on the subject because I knew people on this board were going to twist his brief statement into something that is not true.
Click to expand...

I have some serious doubts about Jankovic beating atp guys in practice. Does anyone remember a few years ago when the Williams sisters challenged any many outside the top 200? Some German guy took them up on it after playing golf, drinking, and smoking (apparently there was a good reason he was outside the top 200). He beat them down badly and was apparently toying with them at times. They said afterwards they hit shots that would be clean winners on the wta that he got to easily. The Williams sisters were easily the most athletic women on tour at that time. Jankovic is athletic, but I think most atp pros would eat her serve up. If she had a stronger serve, maybe. I'm not being disrespectful to the wta here, but I don't think women can match the explosive power of men at the top of the game. It's well known that top juniors (6.0 ntrp) are often used as training partners by wta pros, which seems to indicate that women are a full point below men on the ntrp scale. I've heard before that above the 4.0 level, women should hit against men that are a full 1.0 below them for an even match.

As for Sharapova being matched against men chosen for a style that she doesn't deal well with, what style is that? Hitting as hard as possible, a la Serena Williams? That would make sense after the AO final. She would benefit most from improving her first serve %, fitness, and shot selection.
 
circusmouse said:
As for Sharapova being matched against men chosen for a style that she doesn't deal well with, what style is that? Hitting as hard as possible, a la Serena Williams? That would make sense after the AO final. She would benefit most from improving her first serve %, fitness, and shot selection.
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If I was a man playing like Sharapova I would seek a job at Burger King.
 
I would assume they have trouble winning solely because of the mental aspect. The wta tour involves very little strategy; just smack the ball as hard as you can until you either hit a winner or the opponent makes an error.

The only reason it's entertaining to watch women's tennis, in my opinion, is that I love to see the intensity with which women compete. They VISUALLY want it more than the men. You can SEE it on their faces.


yes yes, I know men want it just as much as the women...but you can't SEE it.
 
circusmouse said:
I have some serious doubts about Jankovic beating atp guys in practice. Does anyone remember a few years ago when the Williams sisters challenged any many outside the top 200? Some German guy took them up on it after playing golf, drinking, and smoking (apparently there was a good reason he was outside the top 200). He beat them down badly and was apparently toying with them at times. They said afterwards they hit shots that would be clean winners on the wta that he got to easily. The Williams sisters were easily the most athletic women on tour at that time. Jankovic is athletic, but I think most atp pros would eat her serve up. If she had a stronger serve, maybe. I'm not being disrespectful to the wta here, but I don't think women can match the explosive power of men at the top of the game. It's well known that top juniors (6.0 ntrp) are often used as training partners by wta pros, which seems to indicate that women are a full point below men on the ntrp scale. I've heard before that above the 4.0 level, women should hit against men that are a full 1.0 below them for an even match.

As for Sharapova being matched against men chosen for a style that she doesn't deal well with, what style is that? Hitting as hard as possible, a la Serena Williams? That would make sense after the AO final. She would benefit most from improving her first serve %, fitness, and shot selection.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that was Kaarstan Brasch (SP?). He was in the top 50 in 1996-7. Really funny looking, but effective serve.
 
dirtballer said:
Brad Gilbert commented this morning about watching Maria Sharapova playing the top junior boys at the tennis academy last winter. He seemed to indicate they were beating her pretty regularly. I know people on this board have indicated that the level of play on the women's tour is somewhere between college Division 1 and Division 2. If you assume the top juniors at the academies are Division 1 level talent, this would seem to be true.
Click to expand...

I will bet you those boy won't be able to beat Serena williams on a good day.;)
 
Graff used to practice with juniors, and she used beat a good number of them, or so I heard. I once watched a match between Kathy Horvath (to whom Navratilova had her only loss of 1983, at the 4th round of the French) and Vince van Patten, a pretty decent player (decent enough to beat John McEnroe in the early 80s) who was then ranked about 35 in the atp. This was at some celebrity event, and Horvath was given the doubles alleys as handicap compensation (a generous one to be sure). Still, I though his pace and speed would be too much for her to handle. At the beginning it was close, but he was ahead (she wasn't really using the alleys). The she started going for the lines, and he just could not keep up. I was surprised at how easily she beat him. And believe me, he wasn't enjoying it, he was frustrated as hell and trying as hard as he could.
 
Benhur said:
Graff used to practice with juniors, and she used beat a good number of them, or so I heard. I once watched a match between Kathy Horvath (to whom Navratilova had her only loss of 1983, at the 4th round of the French) and Vince van Patten, a pretty decent player (decent enough to beat John McEnroe in the early 80s) who was then ranked about 35 in the atp. This was at some celebrity event, and Horvath was given the doubles alleys as handicap compensation (a generous one to be sure). Still, I though his pace and speed would be too much for her to handle. At the beginning it was close, but he was ahead (she wasn't really using the alleys). The she started going for the lines, and he just could not keep up. I was surprised at how easily she beat him. And believe me, he wasn't enjoying it, he was frustrated as hell and trying as hard as he could.
Click to expand...

Giving her the alleys is a pretty big advantage.
 
I don't think the top women could beat any of the top 18 year old boys in America. And I don't think they could beat any of the top 1000 in the ATP tour. Does that make me sexist?
 
circusmouse said:
I have some serious doubts about Jankovic beating atp guys in practice. Does anyone remember a few years ago when the Williams sisters challenged any many outside the top 200? Some German guy took them up on it after playing golf, drinking, and smoking (apparently there was a good reason he was outside the top 200). He beat them down badly and was apparently toying with them at times. They said afterwards they hit shots that would be clean winners on the wta that he got to easily. The Williams sisters were easily the most athletic women on tour at that time. Jankovic is athletic, but I think most atp pros would eat her serve up. If she had a stronger serve, maybe. I'm not being disrespectful to the wta here, but I don't think women can match the explosive power of men at the top of the game. It's well known that top juniors (6.0 ntrp) are often used as training partners by wta pros, which seems to indicate that women are a full point below men on the ntrp scale. I've heard before that above the 4.0 level, women should hit against men that are a full 1.0 below them for an even match.

As for Sharapova being matched against men chosen for a style that she doesn't deal well with, what style is that? Hitting as hard as possible, a la Serena Williams? That would make sense after the AO final. She would benefit most from improving her first serve %, fitness, and shot selection.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but that took place in 1998 at the Aussie Open, and that Serena Williams was not the same player as the one now...for the most part though, i agree.
 
CyBorg said:
You will find no sport on earth at which women can beat top junior boys (teenagers). Not one.
Click to expand...

Interesting, I had a hunch you might be wrong in long distance running and swimming. But it seems the best junior boy in the world ran a marathon that is 5 seconds faster than the fastest adult woman's time. But it should be noted that a "junior" in track and field is anyone under 20 yrs old.

It looks like junior boys don't swim some of the longest events that adult women swim (based on my limited research).
 
CyBorg said:
You will find no sport on earth at which women can beat top junior boys (teenagers). Not one.

I've seen this experiment in soccer and hockey in particular. In those two in particular there is a physical component that the women can't match. In addition, and particularly related to tennis, the boys are much better athletes, cover more ground and hit/strike/shoot much harder.
Click to expand...

I bet you if i pick up some moms at the grocery store they could beat Miami University in football.
 
Track and field World Junior Records--Men (World Junior Records are restricted to athletes who do not turn 20 at any time during the calendar year in which the mark is made )

Track Events
100...........10.06.........Dwain Chambers (Great Britain)......Ljubljana, Slovenia........7/25/97
200...........20.13.........Roy Martin (US).....................Indianapolis, Indiana......6/16/85
400...........43.87.........Steve Lewis (US)....................Seoul, South Korea.........9/28/88
800...........1:43.64.......Japhet Kimutai (Kenya)..............Zürich, Switzerland........8/13/97
1000..........2:15.00.......Benjamin Kipkurui (Kenya)...........Nice, France...............7/17/99
1500m.........3:30.24.......Cornelius Chirchir (Kenya)..........Fontvieille, Monaco........7/17/02
Mile..........3:50.41.......Noah Ngeny (Kenya)..................Nice, France...............7/16/97
2000+.........4:56.86.......Isaac Songok (Kenya)................Berlin, Germany............8/31/01
2000Steeple...5:25.01.......Arsenios Tsiminos (Greece)..........Athens, Greece.............10/2/80
Steeplechase..7:58.66.......Stephen Cherono (Kenya).............Brussels, Belgium..........8/24/01
3000..........7:34.58.......Sammy Kipketer (Kenya)..............Brussels, Belgium..........9/ 3/99
5000..........12:53.72......Philip Mosima (Kenya)...............Rome, Italy................6/ 5/96
10,000........27:11.18......Richard Chelimo (Kenya).............Hengelo, Holland...........6/25/91
Marathon......2:10:46.......Zuhong Li (China)...................Beijing, China.............10/14/01
110H..........13.12.........Xiang Liu (China)...................Lausanne, Switzerland......7/ 2/02
400H..........48.02.........Danny Harris (US)...................Los Angeles, California....6/17/84
10K Walk......38:46.4.......Viktor Burayev (Russia) ............Moscow, Russia.............5/20/00

World Records—Women

100 10.49 Florence Griffith Joyner (US) Indianapolis, Indiana 7/16/88
200 21.34 Florence Griffith Joyner (US) Seoul, South Korea 9/29/88
400 47.60 Marita Koch (East Germany) Canberra, Australia 10/06/85
800 1:53.28 Jarmila Kratochvílová (Czechoslovakia) Munich, Germany 7/26/83
1000 2:28.98 Svetlana Masterkova (Russia) Brussels, Belgium 8/23/96
1500 3:50.46 Yunxia Qu (China) Beijing, China 9/11/93
Mile 4:12.56 Svetlana Masterkova (Russia) Zürich, Switzerland 8/14/96
2000 5:25.35 Sonia O'Sullivan (Ireland) Edinburgh, Scotland 7/08/94
Steeplechase 9:01.59 Gulnara Samitova (Russia) Tula, Russia 8/10/03
3000 8:06.11 Junxia Wang (China) Beijing, China 9/13/93
5000 14:24.53 Meseret Defar (Ethiopia) Randalls Island, New York 6/03/06
10,000 29:31.78 Junxia Wang (China) Beijing, China 9/08/93
20,000 1:05:26.6 Tegla Loroupe (Kenya) Borgholzhausen, Germany 9/03/00
Hour 18,340m (11M,696y) Tegla Loroupe (Kenya) Borgholzhausen, Germany 8/07/98
25,000 1:27:05.9 Tegla Loroupe (Kenya) Mengerskirchen, Germany 9/02/02
30,000 1:45:50.0 Tegla Loroupe (Kenya) Warstein, Germany 6/06/03
100 Hurdles 12.21 Yordanka Donkova (Bulgaria) Stara Zagora, Bulgaria 8/20/88
400 Hurdles 52.34 Yuliya Pechonkina (Russia) Tula, Russia 8/08/03
 
Great work on the research. You have proven everyone's point. BTW, this is nothing against women. Three of my favorite people in the world are women - mother in law, wife, daughter.
 
CyBorg said:
You will find no sport on earth at which women can beat top junior boys (teenagers). Not one.

I've seen this experiment in soccer and hockey in particular. In those two in particular there is a physical component that the women can't match. In addition, and particularly related to tennis, the boys are much better athletes, cover more ground and hit/strike/shoot much harder.
Click to expand...

Ultramarathoning (Ann Transon has won several ultramarathoning events outright and would surely smoke any male teen)

and

Multiple Orgasims :D
 
Diadora, I think these stats are closer than reality. I think FloJo's 100 and 200 times were probably YARDS. The times you have for men are METERS. The world records for 100 YDs is less than 10 secs. That would make the difference even more.
 
So many insecure men here. Of course men are better than women at sports at the highest levels. We don't need to talk about this ad nauseam. Women are still doing better than men academically (at least in the US), which is more important, and which we have no physiological excuse for.
 
maec allamerican said:
That's the question. I think top 14's could beat the number one woman's player.

!6's and 18's boys would be handing out bagels to Serena and Venus.
Click to expand...

Of course they could. Even my mother-in-law could beat Henin if she defaulted the match - pointless.
And why bring up that Wililams-Braasch match all the time, without mentioning that Serena was 16 years old?
The question is if they could beat them, but if they could beat them all the time and vice versa. Henin can lose against Danillidou, Venus against Pironkova, but not all the time.
 
beernutz said:
Ultramarathoning (Ann Transon has won several ultramarathoning events outright and would surely smoke any male teen)
Click to expand...

I'm not talking of any male teen here, but a well-conditioned, experienced male junior. And, no she wouldn't.
 
sureshs said:
It is a well-established fact that most men who post here can beat Sharapova due to the variety in their game, their small-headed racquets, and the lessons from the Tennis Tips section.
Click to expand...

I get my lessons from the General Pro Player Discussion, mainly just from the GOAT threads.
 
CyBorg said:
You will find no sport on earth at which women can beat top junior boys (teenagers). Not one.

I've seen this experiment in soccer and hockey in particular. In those two in particular there is a physical component that the women can't match. In addition, and particularly related to tennis, the boys are much better athletes, cover more ground and hit/strike/shoot much harder.
Click to expand...

I don't think it can't happen I think it doesn't happen. Look I am in now way saying that the women's tour is anywhere near the mens, and don't really believe the deserve the same pay as men, totally based on the quality level of play between men and women. But you talk as though a women can't play at the level of men and that's not true. I think one day you will have a female who plays at the level of the men's tour she'll have to practice with boys from the start and have a coach who will train her as though she were a boy and not play the game that is popular within women's tennis
 
saram said:
Someone will come along and throw King/Riggs into this thread...I am sure of that....

I have to agree with CyBorg
Click to expand...


All that proved was for that time and period in tennis, King was not only equal to Riggs but she was better for that day, and it can happen again when a women comes along and decides she wants to play better as good as the boys
 
sondraj said:
it can happen again when a women comes along and decides she wants to play better as good as the boys
Click to expand...

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sondraj said:
All that proved was for that time and period in tennis, King was not only equal to Riggs but she was better for that day, and it can happen again when a women comes along and decides she wants to play better as good as the boys
Click to expand...

sure, it can happen again when a woman close to her prime decides she wants to play better than a man who was in his prime thirty years before (the match was in 73, Riggs was a star in the 40s. come on)
 
I wonder which would be tougher:

playing against the top male junior players

or

playing against the top male senior players (like McEnroe, Connors, Borg)
 
CyBorg said:
I'm not talking of any male teen here, but a well-conditioned, experienced male junior. And, no she wouldn't.
Click to expand...
got to disagree with you Borg, the ultramarathon is a sport where women can beat men...apparently they have more endurance... but to the OP...I heard a really low down guy on the team from UCSC a few years ago (#1 div. 3 school in nation) played with a top 100 womans pro and won...Seriously most div. 1 college players in the US would destroy any top womens pro... Junior wise even a super good national level 14 yr old would be able to compete with a high ranked womans pro, but prob not way hennin or mauresmo...16s fro sure
 
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The top junior boys dismantling the WTA's best? Did we really need Brad Gilbert to tell us that? Tim Smyczek beat Justine Henin in a practice match 6-2, 6-0 a year or two ago. Next subject please.
 
caesar66 said:
sure, it can happen again when a woman close to her prime decides she wants to play better than a man who was in his prime thirty years before (the match was in 73, Riggs was a star in the 40s. come on)
Click to expand...


Nope when a girl trains like the boys and has the talent to back it up, it will happen. Tennis talent is not exclusive to the men.
 
sondraj said:
Nope when a girl trains like the boys and has the talent to back it up, it will happen. Tennis talent is not exclusive to the men.
Click to expand...

talent isnt exclusive to a man, and if you could measure talent against one's peers then you could realistically compare the top man and top woman, but its a matter of science and anatomy that the man who has had the utmost preparation and conditioning will destroy the woman who has had the same utmost preparation and conditioning. Its not a sexist issue or me saying that I dont like or respect women's tennis (i do like it and definitely do respect it), I'm just saying that theres no way a woman's body could develop the same strength as a mans. The physical peak is lower for women than men, not a sexist issue, a biological one. In effect, even if that woman had more natural talent than top mens players, she would be beaten by athleticism and physicality.
 
Last edited:
caesar66 said:
talent isnt exclusive to a man, and if you could measure talent against one's peers then you could realistically compare the top man and top woman, but its a matter of science and anatomy that the man who has had the utmost preparation and conditioning will destroy the woman who has had the same utmost preparation and conditioning. Its not a sexist issue or me saying that I dont like or respect women's tennis (i do like it and definitely do respect it), I'm just saying that theres no way a woman's body could develop the same strength as a mans. The physical peak is lower for women than men, not a sexist issue, a biological one.
Click to expand...

But ah my friend tennis, sports aren't all about strength. If a super strong male who has a very one dimensional game plays a women who is more talented in her strokes and places the ball where he can't return it, guess what, he won't be able to return it and in tennis that equals a win.
 
sondraj said:
But ah my friend tennis, sports aren't all about strength. If a super strong male who has a very one dimensional game plays a women who is more talented in her strokes and places the ball where he can't return it, guess what, he won't be able to return it and in tennis that equals a win.
Click to expand...

If he hits a ball harder than she does and can smoke winners at will, she wont have a chance to tee up those shots and hit the angles. I dont want to argue with you or seem ignorant, but I really believe its a matter of athleticism. She can have all the angles in the book but if he can hit harder serves, harder returns, and harder strokes in general, she wont have the time to hit those "unreturnable shots". Do you really think that if a woman went through the most rigorous training possible from an early age she'd be able to challenge federer or nadal? Again, I'm not being sexist or mysaginistic, I just dont see where it would be possible. i'm not saying any man can beat any woman, there are plenty of girls rated higher than me who can take my measly 3.5 self out. But in the upper echelons of the game, theres just not going to be a competition between the top woman and top man, even if she trains "with the boys" the whole way up.
 
Caesar, you are correct. Not sexist at all, there is simply no way ANY woman, regardless of talent, can match any top male pro in most sports, and that includes tennis.

Somebody might argue that Graf has more natural talent than Agassi, but I'm sure when they go to hit together you know who has to go easy on who, bad back and all.
 
CyBorg said:
You will find no sport on earth at which women can beat top junior boys (teenagers). Not one.

I've seen this experiment in soccer and hockey in particular. In those two in particular there is a physical component that the women can't match. In addition, and particularly related to tennis, the boys are much better athletes, cover more ground and hit/strike/shoot much harder.
Click to expand...

Maybe Golf is an exception.
 
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