origmarm
Hall of Fame
You know thinking about Serena, I really don't know about this....
Gilbert Comments About Maria Playing Junior Boys
- Thread starter dirtballer
- Start date
You know thinking about Serena, I really don't know about this....
No, you are right. You are very right.
I happen to think that it can trump the physical side.
this subject is closed for me, I really do think your the only one who gets what I'm saying and trust me I do appreciate it, even if we don't agree on the outcome of this hypothetical match up that has never happened
Kaptain Karl
Hall Of Fame
<Mod Mode> I've just cleaned off over 25 trolling or flaming posts in this thread. If I have to do more, I'll just nuke the whole thing. (Some users' posts were zapped because you quoted the trolling or the flames. That's life....)
I don't normally do this publicly, but ... sondraj and cyborg - STOP the trolling. Do not reply to me in this thread. If you wish to protest my action, e-mail me or post in the TW Questions & Answers sub-forum. </Mod Mode>
- KK
I don't normally do this publicly, but ... sondraj and cyborg - STOP the trolling. Do not reply to me in this thread. If you wish to protest my action, e-mail me or post in the TW Questions & Answers sub-forum. </Mod Mode>
- KK
beernutz
Hall of Fame
She now smokes well-conditioned, experienced male seniors. Why wouldn't she also smoke well-conditioned, experienced male juniors? Because you say so?
By the way, when previously I wrote she would smoke any male teen, I mean any male teen, including the well-conditioned, experienced ones.
CyBorg
Legend
Link to this?
ps60
Professional
10 pin bowling , how about that ?
i've seen the girls coming here to play for many yrs before AO.
i think some of them are really great and powerful. Don't think the Davis cup rep here can beat them. eg Kim Clijsters, Koznetsova ...
They serve very big and they Are Big ! and in tennis, there is the strategy part of the game + experience + Endurance. These girls are very well trained on a daily basis.
, how about that ?i've seen the girls coming here to play for many yrs before AO.
i think some of them are really great and powerful. Don't think the Davis cup rep here can beat them. eg Kim Clijsters, Koznetsova ...
They serve very big and they Are Big ! and in tennis, there is the strategy part of the game + experience + Endurance. These girls are very well trained on a daily basis.
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Henin lost routinely to a guy that can't even get a game off me, and who has since given up tennis, a couple of years ago. The women, god bless them, just can't handle certain things. They move fairly well, they hit a beautiful ball, but it is just the subtle things they can't seem to handle. Extreme slice, big flat serves etc... seem to throw them right off.
They are good players, and are phenomenal to practise with, but in a match...........
Jankovic is weird enough, that she might actually play better against guys. So I might be inclined to believe that story, but Henin, well, she could not beat this guy to save her life. And he basically stunk. Don't ask for names, particularly after what i just said about the guys game.
They are good players, and are phenomenal to practise with, but in a match...........
Jankovic is weird enough, that she might actually play better against guys. So I might be inclined to believe that story, but Henin, well, she could not beat this guy to save her life. And he basically stunk. Don't ask for names, particularly after what i just said about the guys game.
C'mon dude, in such a case you could be a coach (at least).
diadorakuerten
Rookie
Wrong. Both are in meters.
CyBorg
Legend
A coach - with her head and 30-word vocabulary?
Okay, fine - maybe a commentator for ESPN.
Run circles why because he is tall and stiff? Wow what a profound argument. The question is can a woman even score on Big Z? He will probably block almost every shot and if the ball is in his hands in the paint can any woman stop him? The man will probably put up Wilt numbers if he ever played in the WNBA. Big Z isn't a PG. I don't expect him to outdribble a shorter and mobile player, male or female.
Can a top women player beat a top men player both in their primes? NO. Can a top women player beat a top men player not in his prime but not far removed from his prime (10 years). 5 times out of 100 at best. Sampras will probably destroy the WTA tour. McEnroe will be probably be at the top or #1 in the WTA even at his age. Can a top women player beat a man far removed from his prime? Yes it has already happened. Can a top women beat a man if the man has to play with handicap rules in place? Sure.
Notice all of the yes and sures a handicap must be placed on the man may it be age or rules. That is what makes this whole man vs. woman argument quite redundant. The only argument that should matter is a top man vs. top woman. There is nothing sexist in saying that women have a disadvantage to men when all other things are equal (i.e. training and etc) in a sport like tennis. You are only sexist if you say Sharapova or JHH would lose to some guy plucked off the street playing tennis for the first or even second time. Those girls will destroy them. But take the top 5 women in the world and compare them to the top 100 men and you will be hard pressed to find one matchup that a man or woman can confidently say that the woman would win that match.
beernutz
Hall of Fame
http://www.usatf.org/athletes/bios/oldBios/1997/ann_trason.htm
Check her Western States 100M history.
The average age of ultrarunners is over 40. The differences between the top men and women in these type events is small. You will almost always see a women in the top 10 and often in the top 5 overall even when there are hundreds of competitors.
Now its your turn--show me a well-conditioned, experienced teen male with times in an ultrarunning event anywhere near those of Ann Trason.
charlottefromca
Rookie
QUIDDITCH!!
christos_liaskos
Professional
I recently changed my views on women getting equal proze money and I know pretty much agree with it. However, I get the feeling that when the many female players (the Williams for starters) talk about men and women being equal, they dont only mean being treated equally but they seem to think that they are at the same level physically too.
As I said, I now agree with women being payed the same as men but my arguement is that its not the physical ability that matters but the fact that they are all putting 100% into their tennis - both men and women and therefore the women deserve the same because they are putting the same effort and making the same sacrifices during their career and through their life as juniors.
If these women are claiming that they believe they are on a par with men physically and they are putting 100% into their tennis then they should definitely play best of 5. Otherwise it should be written in the sky that it is a fact that men are stronger and more capable than women. If not, then I take back my arguement on equal pay and women should not get the same as men, based on the fact that they dont seem to be accepting that their 100% is not capable of competing at a high level over 5 sets.
As I said, I now agree with women being payed the same as men but my arguement is that its not the physical ability that matters but the fact that they are all putting 100% into their tennis - both men and women and therefore the women deserve the same because they are putting the same effort and making the same sacrifices during their career and through their life as juniors.
If these women are claiming that they believe they are on a par with men physically and they are putting 100% into their tennis then they should definitely play best of 5. Otherwise it should be written in the sky that it is a fact that men are stronger and more capable than women. If not, then I take back my arguement on equal pay and women should not get the same as men, based on the fact that they dont seem to be accepting that their 100% is not capable of competing at a high level over 5 sets.
Kaptain Karl
Hall Of Fame
Sean Dugan
Rookie
Out of sequence; sorry.
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Sean Dugan
Rookie
Is be-itching considered a sport?
Women are definitely better at that. ;O)
Karsten Braasch; remember him????
How to... beat both Williams Sisters in One Afternoon
Karsten Braasch is the German tennis player who did just that in 1998
Sunday September 2, 2001
It was the 1998 Australian Open and the Williams sisters, Venus and Serena, had seen some of the male players practising. On the basis of what they saw, they were convinced that they could beat a man ranked around 200 in the world and wanted to set up a game. At the time I was ranked 203 so the men's tour manager mentioned the possibility of a challenge to me, thinking that I was the perfect candidate. I didn't take much persuading, it seemed like a fun thing to do.
My advice if you're ever in a position to play a match of this nature is be patient - don't be annoyed or surprised if your match against the Williams sisters is cancelled, as they both have very busy schedules. My game against them had to be re-organised at least a couple of times.
Preparation is crucial. Remember that a game like this is light-hearted - taking it too seriously would be a mistake. My training regime consisted of a leisurely round of golf in the morning followed by a couple of shandies. I turned up on court feeling suitably laid-back. (Note: I believe "shandies" are a mixture of beer and lemonade.)
My first game of the afternoon, just a one-set match, was against Serena. A hint: try and play your match somewhere quiet, where you're not going to be pestered by big crowds or lots of press - we were out on one of the back courts at Melbourne Park, No 17 I think it was. I felt so relaxed that I didn't even warm up properly. We started playing and I raced into a 5-0 lead.
At this point Venus turned up to watch. She had just finished a press conference after a quarter-final loss against Lindsey Davenport. In the end I won my game against Serena 6-1 but by the time we were at the net shaking hands, Venus was on court, ready to have a go against me as well. The game against Venus was very similar. I ended up winning 6-2.
Both sisters are great tennis players and hit the ball extremely well. However, if you've been playing on the men's tour there are certain shots you can play that are going to put them in difficulty. Try and put a lot spin on the ball - I was hitting the ball with a degree of spin they don't face week-in, week-out. Another key is to chase down every shot. In our match, they were putting shots into the corners that on the women's tour would be winners but I was able to return them.
In the end I won, but neither myself, nor Venus or Serena took the game too seriously - we were just having a bit of fun.
Apparently, after the game, Serena and Venus immediately told the press they wanted to challenge a male player again. This time they revised the ranking of the man they wanted to face, to 350 in the world. I informed the journalist who told me this that in the next week I was set to lose a lot of ATP points and drop down to 350 in the rankings. I told him that if Venus and Serena waited just one week they could challenge me all over again!
That never came about, but when I saw Venus a few months later at the French Open she came up to me with a big smile on her face and said, 'You know that thing in Australia - it never happened!
Women are definitely better at that. ;O)
Karsten Braasch; remember him????
How to... beat both Williams Sisters in One Afternoon
Karsten Braasch is the German tennis player who did just that in 1998
Sunday September 2, 2001
It was the 1998 Australian Open and the Williams sisters, Venus and Serena, had seen some of the male players practising. On the basis of what they saw, they were convinced that they could beat a man ranked around 200 in the world and wanted to set up a game. At the time I was ranked 203 so the men's tour manager mentioned the possibility of a challenge to me, thinking that I was the perfect candidate. I didn't take much persuading, it seemed like a fun thing to do.
My advice if you're ever in a position to play a match of this nature is be patient - don't be annoyed or surprised if your match against the Williams sisters is cancelled, as they both have very busy schedules. My game against them had to be re-organised at least a couple of times.
Preparation is crucial. Remember that a game like this is light-hearted - taking it too seriously would be a mistake. My training regime consisted of a leisurely round of golf in the morning followed by a couple of shandies. I turned up on court feeling suitably laid-back. (Note: I believe "shandies" are a mixture of beer and lemonade.)
My first game of the afternoon, just a one-set match, was against Serena. A hint: try and play your match somewhere quiet, where you're not going to be pestered by big crowds or lots of press - we were out on one of the back courts at Melbourne Park, No 17 I think it was. I felt so relaxed that I didn't even warm up properly. We started playing and I raced into a 5-0 lead.
At this point Venus turned up to watch. She had just finished a press conference after a quarter-final loss against Lindsey Davenport. In the end I won my game against Serena 6-1 but by the time we were at the net shaking hands, Venus was on court, ready to have a go against me as well. The game against Venus was very similar. I ended up winning 6-2.
Both sisters are great tennis players and hit the ball extremely well. However, if you've been playing on the men's tour there are certain shots you can play that are going to put them in difficulty. Try and put a lot spin on the ball - I was hitting the ball with a degree of spin they don't face week-in, week-out. Another key is to chase down every shot. In our match, they were putting shots into the corners that on the women's tour would be winners but I was able to return them.
In the end I won, but neither myself, nor Venus or Serena took the game too seriously - we were just having a bit of fun.
Apparently, after the game, Serena and Venus immediately told the press they wanted to challenge a male player again. This time they revised the ranking of the man they wanted to face, to 350 in the world. I informed the journalist who told me this that in the next week I was set to lose a lot of ATP points and drop down to 350 in the rankings. I told him that if Venus and Serena waited just one week they could challenge me all over again!
That never came about, but when I saw Venus a few months later at the French Open she came up to me with a big smile on her face and said, 'You know that thing in Australia - it never happened!
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z-money
Semi-Pro
and they dont screach when they play thats the best part i think. if i watch maria play a screach fest type of match again i will probably break the tv
I agree, I think any top 14's, 16's and 18's can beat the top 10 women's players easily. They have more power, speed and topspin and shut the Williams sisters' mouths up and tehn some...
CyBorg
Legend
There is only one thing that I disagree with because it is inaccurate in this statement and that is about Z and the WNBA. And the answer to your question is yes, a female player in the wnba would be able to score on him. His height serves no purpose in stopping them because most wnba players are quite tall themselves and that argument doesn't hold weight because most men in the NBA who are shorter have much success in scoring on him. The reason I use him as and example is because he is so bad for a pro that any women in the WNBA could score on him.
And for the other part I don't agree, like I've stated plenty of times before you are taking a hypothetically situation that has never happened between two players that at the moment don't exist ( a women who is technically as sound and talented and trained in the same manner as her male counterpart)
I feel if there were exempt the strength factor, both equal or better skill wise she would not only have a chance at beating him but would succeed.
Without the handicaps or age gaps
This will come as no surprise to anyone who knows anything about tennis. It's not only a question of power differences, but also disparities in general strength and particularly movement. Men move more quickly and can do more with the ball when on the run or stretched and with less exertion. The variety and quantity of spin is also a big factor. McEnroe today, could beat all of the women currently playing. The men and women's game is very different.
Karan Rastogi beat Sharapova 6-2, 6-2 the year she was Wimbledon champion, 2004, and he a junior ranked just under 950 on the ATP tour. He is currently ranked in the top 400.
http://www.rediff.com/sports/2005/jun/17deepti.htm
203 ranked Karsten Braasch beat both Williams sisters, Serena 6-1, Venus 6-2. His preparation involved a round of golf and a couple of shandies. His ranking a week later was 350. No longer playing.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/osm/story/0,,543962,00.html
Ryan Sweeting beat Sharapova 7-5, 6-3 in 2005, after she was Wimbledon champion and he was still playing on the the junior tour with not one ATP point. He is currently ranked 246 and was beaten 6-4 6-2 this year by Donald Young.
http://www.gainesville.com/apps/pbc...02/GATORS10/203020366&SearchID=73237569569792
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hrstrat57
Hall of Fame
good thread.....
just stumbled on it and read thru most of it....made me recall a bit of ancient history. I recall reading many years ago how Chris Evert often trained very competitively with her brother (Jack?) who I recall played D1 somewhere in the SEC, might have been Auburn....
I recall her saying she could win points and scratch out an occasional game on her serve.....but never took a set. She was no 1 in the world at the time....I'm sure her comments could be hunted down somewhere.....
I recall it pretty vividly tho.....as some folks were not very pleased at the time that she revealed it.
Granted Chrissy wasn't 6' 2" and didn't serve +100 mph regularly....but she was pretty good.
just stumbled on it and read thru most of it....made me recall a bit of ancient history. I recall reading many years ago how Chris Evert often trained very competitively with her brother (Jack?) who I recall played D1 somewhere in the SEC, might have been Auburn....
I recall her saying she could win points and scratch out an occasional game on her serve.....but never took a set. She was no 1 in the world at the time....I'm sure her comments could be hunted down somewhere.....
I recall it pretty vividly tho.....as some folks were not very pleased at the time that she revealed it.
Granted Chrissy wasn't 6' 2" and didn't serve +100 mph regularly....but she was pretty good.
baseliner87
Rookie
he he he he
35ft6
Legend
You using the word "crucified" to describe people disagreeing with you says a lot. Why not compare it to the holocaust?
It's not that they disagree with you, it's how unreasonable you're being. Your basic argument seems to be "hypothetically, if a woman was good enough to be in the ATP top 100 than she would be good enough to be in the top 100, therefor that proves women can play at the highest levels of the ATP."
Women and men's tennis are different sports for a reason. It would be a disaster for the two tours to be combined. Venus, Serena, Maria, and Justine would disappear from the face of the sports world.
When I played with the female college team of the school I attended, I wasn't surprised that they didn't hit as heavy a ball as the guys, what really surprised me is how slow they were compared to even the slowest guys on my team. I think that's the biggest difference. The second biggest difference is that their much weaker in the upper body, so certain shots are more difficult for them. But really it's the movement. If they don't have to move, and if the ball is in their sweet spot, they can't hit as hard as the men but they hit a very solid, heavy ball. But make them move side to side, and up and down, and they start missing like crazy.
Anyway...
35ft6
Legend
In my opinion, when she was number 2, Hingis was the most talented player on either tour. Of course, a top national 16 yo would still have beaten her, but her court sense and racket skills were amazing.
The way you're framing your argument Sondra is cowardly. You're setting it up so that you can never be proven wrong. If a woman doesn't dominate the ATP, it simply means your vision of a woman being trained the same way as a man hasn't happened yet, not that your theory holds no water.
The way I'm setting up the argument is cowardly.... arghh I'm so sick of the poster on this board, you don't think before you post
Here let me write this out for you. You can't be proven wrong either, you know how
Because once again you are setting up a hypothetical situation between Hingis and a top national 16 year old that has never happen
so to say what would happen again in a hypothetical situation that has never occurred is just as cowardly as me doing it no...
Boy you are quite confident in your ability to know what would happen if they world bent to your will
and I can't even begin to tell you how silly this sounds
"it simply means your vision of a woman being trained the same way as a man hasn't happened yet, not that your theory holds no water."
well if the situation hasn't happen yet how are soooo damn sure my theory wouldn't hold water
Neither does it mean yours does because once again guess what it hasn't happen yet
helloworld
Hall of Fame
A 14-year-old Nadal can beat any top female pros easily. I'm not kidding.
35ft6
Legend
You're wrong. A 16yo beating a top female has happened. Ryan Sweeting example posted above being one. But I'm sure the examples are numerous. People have cited all sorts of real life examples that HAVE actually happened whereas you're relying on speculation.
The thing is, the WTA pros would be the first to disagree with you, but you're relying on an alternative reality that exists exlusively within the realm of your own worldview. I get the feeling that if, say, Martina Navratilova told you while your ideas are well-intentioned you were completely wrong, you would dismiss her with a "lets agree to disagree."
Despite so many real world examples being provided, you haven't budged an inch from your original position. That's the sign of a crackpot.
By the way, what level do you play at? On this board, most of the strange tennis ideas are posted by relatively low level players.
dukemunson
Rookie
I'm still not even sure what your saying? Are you saying that if a woman was as strong and talented as a man she could compete with them? If that's your argument then I agree, in the same way that if a dacshund was as strong and fit and tough and big as a bear it could fight a bear and win...thats true...
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