Gilles Simon on "The Federer Myth" and why he wants Djokodal to overtake him

[Tshooter]

he doesn't like the good tennis

Put it on T-shirt and you have one customer here. On the back maybe a photo of a group of perfectly lined up water bottles ?

 

[Tennis_Hands]

Not true. Another myth. Federer didn't make any headway for 6 hyears before he first played Nadal at RG.

Actually what you posted confirms this, as Nadal stopped Federer in the years where Federer made the SF/F/F/F and obviously the F in 2011.

Not that it means much, as Fed's achievement is as much a testament to the severely depleted clay court field as are Nadal's titles at RG.

 

[TopspintheTerrible]

I watched some of the RG Junior matches & I didn’t see one kid play like Federer. The majority of them had 2 handers & never came to net unless they were forced in.

 

[tonylg]

Simon doesn't like the good tennis.

He sure AF never played it.

 

[Cortana]

Tsitsicrates:

Loooool. He just became my favorite player.

 

[clayqueen]

No one can play like Federer anyway, but if they could surely they would win French Opens because Nadal was the only guy standing in his way for years.

And who would've won those in 06 and 07? Davydenko? Ljubicic? Gravinboginagis?

PeopleChamp says only Nadal was standing in his way but Fed was not even close to winning RG for 6 years before he played Rafa there.

 

[Tshooter]

Simon doesn't like the good tennis.

He sure AF never played it.

 

[King No1e]

PeopleChamp says only Nadal was standing in his way but Fed was not even close to winning RG for 6 years before he played Rafa there.

Only Nadal stood in his way in 2006,07,08, and 11. That's as close as you can get to winning.

 

[Sysyphus]

Tangential fun fact of the day:

Gilles Simon and Roger Federer have virtually the same average forehand speeds.

I don't think anyone would guess that on the face of it.

 

[PeoplesChamp]

PeopleChamp says only Nadal was standing in his way but Fed was not even close to winning RG for 6 years before he played Rafa there.

 

[PeoplesChamp]

Baghdatis Philippousis Kiefer Bjorkman

Same garbage.

Different thread.

 

[Subway Tennis]

Current situation:

Spain: Like ALWAYS produces a brilliant new player Alcaraz who is already beating top 20 players with a great attitude on court. Spain again at the top.

Italy: Has another golden age coming through with a generation of potential ATGs and major winners with a bright future.

France: Needs a bit more time to finish its project but is working on a new "Simon Generation" of superstars.

 

[Patriots]

Can't change the fact that Federer is the most desired player to watch in the history of tennis.

It' the Federer cult like this comment that Simon probably objects to.

 

[Jonas78]

Can't change the fact that Federer is the most desired player to watch in the history of tennis.

And Simon probably the worst.

 

[Tennis_Hands]

It' the Federer cult like this comment that Simon probably objects to.

Unfortunately for him, he chose such a disastrous argument to make his point that it produces the opposite effect: Fed's uniqueness stands out even more amongst the current ocean of baseline clones.

 

[Subway Tennis]

PeopleChamp says only Nadal was standing in his way but Fed was not even close to winning RG for 6 years before he played Rafa there.

Federer definitely did get stopped from winning more RGs by Nadal.

There were some years there where Federer was the second best player on clay for sure.

It's not an indication that the clay field was weak, its more an indication of Federer being an insanely good player on clay.

I take your point about Federer having his chances at RG before Rafa was in the draw, but many of those opportunities were in his early walkabout years when he was still figuring everything out.

 

[duaneeo]

I reckon he's trying to sell his book. Nobody cares about Simon and few people outside of serious tennis fans have ever heard of him. Diss Fed and he gets a headline and creates a buzz. He sure never created any buzz on his own throughout his 17 year career.

Exactly. The "14-time career titlist"/never-made-a-slam-SF Simon is trying to sell a book, and is using Federer as bait to attract customers. He can't use himself.

 

[clayqueen]

Federer definitely did get stopped from winning more RGs by Nadal.

There were some years there where Federer was the second best player on clay for sure.

It's not an indication that the clay field was weak, its more an indication of Federer being an insanely good player on clay.

I take your point about Federer having his chances at RG before Rafa was in the draw, but many of those opportunities were in his early walkabout years when he was still figuring everything out.

Then a 19 year old Nadal won it at the first time of asking.

 

[Subway Tennis]

Then a 19 year old Nadal won it at the first time of asking.

True. Its hard to imagine anyone coming through like Nadal did ever again. The guy is just a one in a billion.

I think the interesting thing to most of us is that he was incredibly good as a young player, but he is also having one of the best 30+ careers ever.

 

[clayqueen]

Only Nadal stood in his way in 2006,07,08, and 11. That's as close as you can get to winning.

Puerta, Djokovic

 

[clayqueen]

True. Its hard to imagine anyone coming through like Nadal did ever again. The guy is just a one in a billion.

I think the interesting thing to most of us is that he was incredibly good as a young player, but he is also having one of the best 30+ careers ever.

Appreciate it

 

[Tennis_Hands]

Exactly. The "14-time career titlist"/never-made-a-slam-SF Simon is trying to sell a book, and is using Federer as bait to attract customers. He can't use himself.

His argument, not his career, is what points at him not being grounded in the reality and speculating. There is nothing in trying to attack a player, just because he wasn't successful.

 

[hoodjem]

Of course the king of pushers and boring play would say this

God, what a dull match!

 

[sredna42]

I think this is more of a bash at the rigid French Federation who seem to have a very fixed (and perhaps dated) view of how tennis should be played that they force on the young. I.E. play like Roger.

Basically if Nadal was a french kid they would have ruined him by trying to change every aspect of his game. Fortunately for the world, Nadal was given the freedom to develop independently.

Tennis Australia is the same. They've got a blueprint they seemingly want all players to conform to.

 

[Beckerserve]

Never write a book when under the influence is what i take from that.

 

[Daniel Andrade]

It's actually easy to play boring baseline tennis, with no imagination............

Yeah, really easy

 

[Daniel Andrade]

Tangential fun fact of the day:

Gilles Simon and Roger Federer have virtually the same average forehand speeds.

I don't think anyone would guess that on the face of it.

Career-wise?

 

[Daniel Andrade]

Personally I kinda have always disliked his opinions? Reminds someone of Kirgios on trying to be edgy?

 

[GhostOfNKDM]

Djokovic's short game and volleys are heavily underrated. It's been a big weapon in his arsenal since 2013.

People just see his overhead (a shot which is truly beyond saving) and conflate that with his net game as a whole.

You may be right. I'm no expert on Novak's game but from what I've seen over the years its his serve that has improved the most.

Volleys I did not feel were that much better compared to the past. In any case he feels comfortable dictating from the back.

So in the context of emulating I'd not put his forecourt game on par with Roger or even Rafa.

Come to think of it the FH isn't that great either technique wise (cross court short hop excepted) In comparison the BH. Its his movement and speed that make him dangerous on that wing.

Again just my imperfect opinion about someone's game I don't follow too closely.

 

[Musterrific]

I had the same thought. Only guys on tour that seem like Federer are Dimi, Tsitsipas, Shaps...

Musetti.

 

[GhostOfNKDM]

Tangential fun fact of the day:

Gilles Simon and Roger Federer have virtually the same average forehand speeds.

I don't think anyone would guess that on the face of it.

Roger Probably plays a foot or two inside the baseline and several feet ahead of Simon's avg FH position though.

Lot harder taking it early, giving direction and time away from your opponent. Agassi did it and he said nobody has a wheelhouse quite like Roger.

Now that's talent.

 

[King No1e]

Tangential fun fact of the day:

Gilles Simon and Roger Federer have virtually the same average forehand speeds.

I don't think anyone would guess that on the face of it.

When was this stat measured? I'm assuming it's recent, because I refuse to believe prime Fed hit as slow as Simon. His FH was a bullet back in the day.

 

[GhostOfNKDM]

When was this stat measured? I'm assuming it's recent, because I refuse to believe prime Fed hit as slow as Simon. His FH was a bullet back in the day.

Probably this decade. Yeah no way 00s Fed and Simon would have the same FH shot speed.

Plus it's not just speed but position that makes a difference. Fed's contact point is guaranteed to be several feet closer the net than Simon's and thus harder to time at the same racquet head speed.

 

[Bhagi Katbamna]

Probably this decade. Yeah no way 00s Fed and Simon would have the same FH shot speed.

Plus it's not just speed but position that makes a difference. Fed's contact point is guaranteed to be several feet closer the net than Simon's and thus harder to time at the same racquet head speed.

...thus getting at the other player faster and robbing them of time which makes it more effective.

 

[GhostOfNKDM]

...thus getting at the other player faster and robbing them of time which makes it more effective.

Yep

 

[asifallasleep]

Yeah, really easy

Gilles is that you?

 

[BeatlesFan]

Then a 19 year old Nadal won it at the first time of asking.

And 17 year old Boris won Wimbledon and Rafa didn't win it until he was an ancient 22. Borg won RG when he was younger than Nadal was at age 19 when he won his first French Open. But Rafa has 13 trophies, Borg 6.

Explain how age correlates to winning majors, Clay. After all, you brought it up, so please back it up. Cut and paste something from Google Books, it'll be easy.

 

[Sudacafan]

Gilles Simon Reveals Why He Wants Rafael Nadal and Novak Djokovic to Break Roger Federer’s Records

BY KSHITIJ TAYAL
OCTOBER 21, 2020


Former World No.6 Gilles Simon is about to release his first book later this month. Titled “This Sport That Makes You Crazy”, Simon has given an interesting outlook towards the “Greatest of All Time” debate surrounding Roger Federer, Rafael Nadal, and Novak Djokovic. The Frenchman has an entire chapter titled “The Federer Myth”, where he writes about trainers having an obsession to train a new Federer in France.


Recently, during an interview, Simon talked about people’s fixation with Federer resulted from his conventional playing style and his colossal achievements over the last two decades. He felt that people don’t want any player to break Federer’s records. It would open up the GOAT debate, and make people incline towards Djokovic or Nadal.

“If Federer keeps his records, that will allow us to say that, of course, Djoko and Nadal are good players too, but above all that, they are less strong. That’s why this GOAT story has been gaining such proportions for years, because there are many who believe that Federer’s records will never fall. But if Djokovic overtakes him when he hardly makes any volleys, it will break the thought patterns of a lot of people.” said Simon.


Simon on people’s obsession with Roger Federer
The 14-time career titlist believes that if Djokovic overtakes Federer in the Grand Slam race, people may not take it too kindly. World No.2 Nadal has already equaled the Swiss maestro’s record of winning 20 major championships after lifting the French Open 2020 for a record 13th time.


Simon revealed that if Federer keeps his records, kids will be forced to emulate him. Hence, he wants Nadal or Djokovic to overcome Federer so that fans don’t limit tennis to one player and young players can approach the game through various playing styles.

“Federer, who keeps his records, means that for generations to come, they will put him in all the sauce. And I don’t want that. I would like a kid who is forced to play like Federer can answer: “Yes, but Novak and Rafa have won twenty-one titles by playing differently,” remarked Simon.


Notably, both Nadal and Djokovic lead their head-to-head against Federer by 24-16 and 27-23, respectively. With Roger having turned 39 this year, the 2021 season might be the last time we witness his magical stroke play.

Simon obviously thinks that way because his play style resembles the ugly, dull and boring of Nole and Rafa, and will never be as pretty and charming as Roger's.

 

[Pmasterfunk]

Simon himself has an idiosyncratic style so probably was hassled by low-achieving, know-nothing coaches trying to change his style throughout his entire career.

I've seen this happen outside of France

 

[ericarnett88]

..

 

[D.Nalby12]

Federer' style being forced on kids? LOL as if old style all court Tennis is so easy to copy. Nadal is one of his kind of unorthodox player whose style will never go mainstream. Djokovic OTOH has style that will be copied in all Tennis academies. In fact it has already happened - Simon is clueless here.

 

[mental midget]

Should be an interesting read.
I think this is more of a bash at the rigid French Federation who seem to have a very fixed (and perhaps dated) view of how tennis should be played that they force on the young. I.E. play like Roger.
This fits with another section from the book:
Basically if Nadal was a french kid they would have ruined him by trying to change every aspect of his game. Fortunately for the world, Nadal was given the freedom to develop independently.

If Rafael Nadal had trained with the French federation, they would've changed everything about his game: Gilles Simon

Gilles Simon has spoken at length about the peculiarities of Rafael Nadal's game in his new autobiography. The Frenchman believes Nadal's game would have been very different if he had trained in France as a youngster.

www.sportskeeda.com

Simon himself has an idiosyncratic style so probably was hassled by low-achieving, know-nothing coaches trying to change his style throughout his entire career.

yeah, it's a little odd all-around, wondering if the translation isn't quite pitch-perfect? it does seem he's mostly taking issue with france's institutional teaching approach--maybe he's sick of french players being noted for flair, but not results? trying to emulate federer that's a likely outcome i suppose so i get it...but still a little weird.

 

[aldeayeah]

I read this as a rant against the French junior program and their insistence on forcing players into a particular mold, rather than any sort of personal preference about the big 3.

 

[Bender]

I want the Federer sauce

this is a strange one

his main point of contention here is that Fed's style will predominate the juniors because all the coaches want to make mini-Feds

however, wouldn't we run into the very same problem if/when Djokodal become GOATS?

every kid is gonna be forced into a two hander and taught to camp the baseline

you can argue this already is a problem considering the new gens are allergic to net play and have a seizure every time they attempt a volley

I think what he means is Fed with his aesthetic and more classic style will always be a point of reference for coaches regardless of whether he stays as GOAT or not.

But with Fed as GOAT, that style fluttery aesthetic style is what will be taught almost exclusively by coaches, whereas with Nadal/Djokovic as GOAT kids will have more blueprints to refer to.

As someone who plays a lot of tennis I can tell you that what Gilles is saying isn't actually wrong. It wasn't until recently that the ignorant circlejerk that Nadal's technique is nothing more than possessing a bicep with legs finally started to die, and tbh parts of the tennis community really needs to shed some of its pompousness.

 

[accidental]

it does look a bit funny atm for sure, but with Fedalovic you just never know

it's hard to write off any of the big 3 at this point

Sounds like Simon has a chip on his shoulder, with people maybe thinking his steady baseline game is inferior to more attacking games.

So he wants Djokovic to end up with the most because of the 3, his game is most similar to Simon’s

 

[Sysyphus]

Career-wise?

Roger Probably plays a foot or two inside the baseline and several feet ahead of Simon's avg FH position though.

Lot harder taking it early, giving direction and time away from your opponent. Agassi did it and he said nobody has a wheelhouse quite like Roger.

Now that's talent.

When was this stat measured? I'm assuming it's recent, because I refuse to believe prime Fed hit as slow as Simon. His FH was a bullet back in the day.

Averages from the AO 2014-2016.

I'm not sure Fed's forehand speeds have declined that much. Could be, but from what I've seen his average speed has remained pretty stable in the mid-to-high 70mph range.

I think NKDM has it right. Roger takes the ball much earlier, places it more agressively, hits more spin and varies it more. And Simon probably doesn't hit as slow as people think, but it's very flat, monotonous and safely placed.

I think this stat just goes to show that there's a lot more to a forehand than average pace.

 

[Patriots]

Fed was not at his peak for those 6 years before first playing nadal. It’s like using Djokovic’s 2006 against him.

It’s more complicated than that.

Federer won 3 Majors in 2004, and 4 total before he met Nadal in the SF’s At the 2005 French Open. However as early as 2001 he was a quarter finalist at Roland Garros and in 2003 he was a finalist at Rome. Most importantly , a few weeks before the 2004 FO, where he was top seeded he played the then Hamburg Masters red clay event , slower even than Roland Garros clay and bested Guillermo Coria, the then perceived master of clay in five sets. So Federer with his red clay cred, was perceived as one of the favorites of the French Open that year, along with Coria.

Of course he ran into the worst draw playing 3 time champion Gustavo Khuerten in the 3rd round who on any given day could still drum up his magic. In hindsight, missing that opportunity closed down his first early chance to win the FO as Nadal came roaring through the next year (2005) and owned Federer on red clay for the rest of their careers.

ETA: Federer had actually already won 2 Masters on clay (Hamburg 2002 & 2004) and reached another Masters final (Rome 2003) before meeting Rafa in the 2005 FO Sf's.

I think what he means is Fed with his aesthetic and more classic style will always be a point of reference for coaches regardless of whether he stays as GOAT or not.

But with Fed as GOAT, that style fluttery aesthetic style is what will be taught almost exclusively by coaches, whereas with Nadal/Djokovic as GOAT kids will have more blueprints to refer to.

As someone who plays a lot of tennis I can tell you that what Gilles is saying isn't actually wrong. It wasn't until recently that the ignorant circlejerk that Nadal's technique is nothing more than possessing a bicep with legs finally started to die, and tbh parts of the tennis community really needs to shed some of its pompousness.

Not to damn the departed, but who can forget the infamous faux-intellectual posturing of David Foster Wallace of Federer as a religious experience versus Nadal's "brutish" play.

It typified so much of which nonFederites despise of the Cult of RF.

 

[tonylg]

If Simon was on here, he'd be starting threads with titles like "Beatiful attacking players with grace, flair and creativity .. what do they get out of the game?" every time he got thumped by Federer.

 

[Tennis_Hands]

I think what he means is Fed with his aesthetic and more classic style will always be a point of reference for coaches regardless of whether he stays as GOAT or not.

But with Fed as GOAT, that style fluttery aesthetic style is what will be taught almost exclusively by coaches, whereas with Nadal/Djokovic as GOAT kids will have more blueprints to refer to.

As someone who plays a lot of tennis I can tell you that what Gilles is saying isn't actually wrong. It wasn't until recently that the ignorant circlejerk that Nadal's technique is nothing more than possessing a bicep with legs finally started to die, and tbh parts of the tennis community really needs to shed some of its pompousness.

I would shed some of my pompousness, but I need to find some replacement for my Federerora hat.

Got anything?



P.S. Fed's style is not taught exclusively by coaches even now, when he is playing and it is unlikely that it will when he is retired. Obviously training depends on many things, one of which is willingness to sacrifice time and initial success for long term benefits of creating a complete package, so until we stop moving towards laziness and supposed effectiveness we won't see Fed's characteristic type of game return, but the fact that even Djoke and Nadsy are moving closer to it in their old age is indicative of its merits, no?

 

[Bender]

I would shed some of my pompousness, but I need to find some replacement for my Federerora hat.

Got anything?

Assuming they live up to their hype(s) the Sinner and Musetti are not bad choices, especially if the former decides to actually venture to the net every once in a while. For now it's a bit too early to tell though.

And despite all the memery I actually do like Berrettini and if he could just get his game together in a more coherent fashion he could do pretty well. His movement and backhand are still suspect but he's got the booming serve and forehand, a fantastic slice for someone with a 2HBH (and a poor 2HBH at that), and lovely touch--all of which are things I think a Fed fan like you might appreciate. Unfortunately his firepower and soft hands haven't actually translated to a multifaceted game even remotely in the same ballpark as Fed's, and he doesn't have the deceptively deep / versatile game that old Nadal employs these days.

P.S. Fed's style is not taught exclusively by coaches even now, when he is playing and it is unlikely that it will when he is retired. Obviously training depends on many things, one of which is willingness to sacrifice time and initial success for long term benefits of creating a complete package, so until we stop moving towards laziness and supposed effectiveness we won't see Fed's characteristic type of game return, but the fact that even Djoke and Nadsy are moving closer to it in their old age is indicative of its merits, no?

I think it depends on where you live. Here, where the tennis community is brand-adherent and overall still rather conservative, where the public courts are very fast (being little more than paint on cement) and the locals are...well let's just say many of them would have you wondering how they're even allowed to ride rollercoasters...there's a lot more emphasis on netplay, slices, and smarter play because raw firepower and athleticism is rare.

But you're right that Fed's style hasn't been taught exclusively for a while now. I don't know about elsewhere but I did notice the trend towards re-examining the stance towards Nadal's game in around 2013 after his HC win streak, especially online. Large parts of the community including coaches seem to have done a complete 180 in terms of how it sees Nadal's technique and his game, but if anything that sort of affirms what Simon is saying here--that Nadal and Djokovic's respective successes have forced coaches to do more than merely parrot baseless and unsubstantiated urban legends.