Gilles Simon on "The Federer Myth" and why he wants Djokodal to overtake him

[Tennis_Hands]

Assuming they live up to their hype(s) the Sinner and Musetti are not bad choices, especially if the former decides to actually venture to the net every once in a while. For now it's a bit too early to tell though.

And despite all the memery I actually do like Berrettini and if he could just get his game together in a more coherent fashion he could do pretty well. His movement and backhand are still suspect but he's got the booming serve and forehand, a fantastic slice for someone with a 2HBH (and a poor 2HBH at that), and lovely touch--all of which are things I think a Fed fan like you might appreciate. Unfortunately his firepower and soft hands haven't actually translated to a multifaceted game even remotely in the same ballpark as Fed's, and he doesn't have the deceptively deep / versatile game that old Nadal employs these days.

I think it depends on where you live. Here, where the tennis community is brand-adherent and overall still rather conservative, where the public courts are very fast (being little more than paint on cement) and the locals are...well let's just say many of them would have you wondering how they're even allowed to ride rollercoasters...there's a lot more emphasis on netplay, slices, and smarter play because raw firepower and athleticism is rare.

But you're right that Fed's style hasn't been taught exclusively for a while now. I don't know about elsewhere but I did notice the trend towards re-examining the stance towards Nadal's game in around 2013 after his HC win streak, especially online. Large parts of the community including coaches seem to have done a complete 180 in terms of how it sees Nadal's technique and his game, but if anything that sort of affirms what Simon is saying here--that Nadal and Djokovic's respective successes have forced coaches to do more than merely parrot baseless and unsubstantiated urban legends.

I was a bit tongue in cheek with my "got anything" comment. I already like Tsitsipas a whole lot, and took notice of Musetti and Sinner recently (and Gaston, but he lacks the physical characteristics that can make him the top dog).

It definitely depends where you live. in Europe, where clay dominates, people are playing various styles, but inescapably they tend to favour the baseline, topspin oriented game a whole lot and less so all court attacking tennis. Federer is actually something of an outlier in that regard (obviously not so in the past, but we are talking the last 20 years).

I don't know, to me Nadal's aggressive game was evident in 2004/2005 when he started on the tour. I have said it many times: by creating the clay monster Toni Nadal actually deprived us of some pretty spectacular fireworks, if Nadal was actually taught to be (or remained, depending how one views it) an all court aggressive player. It is almost ridiculous to suggest that in the context of his many clay records, but I think that Nadal would have been vastly more successful and respected, if he wasn't reduced to a clay court player with a side ability to raise his level elsewhere on occasion. I find great similarities between Nadal's and Fed's FH. They were just adapted to their respective preferred surfaces and game styles, but otherwise rather similar. I don't know what the coaches saw differently in 2013.

 

[dominikk1985]

this is a strange one

his main point of contention here is that Fed's style will predominate the juniors because all the coaches want to make mini-Feds

however, wouldn't we run into the very same problem if/when Djokodal become GOATS?

every kid is gonna be forced into a two hander and taught to camp the baseline

you can argue this already is a problem considering the new gens are allergic to net play and have a seizure every time they attempt a volley

I think he is talking from a development perspective not watchability.

I believe that teaching both Feds and nadals game will limit most juniors and playing like novak is the way to go. Fedal are around 15 years now and there is a reason why not many people play like that still, those two were absolute outliers and their game is very tough to master both technically and physically.

The closest guy in success to fed with a somewhat similar style is dimitrov and he didn't get all that close, maybe tsitsipas is also somewhat similar but really not quite.

And as for nadal nobody plays like that even though the reverse finish forehand is now used more by top guys (but not all the time like nadal).

Really most juniors play like novak with a bent arm forehand and two handed backhand and I think that style of play will be the best bet to become a top100 player for an upcoming junior player.

Interestingly there seems to be a bit of a comeback of the 1hbh with thiem, musetti, shapo and tsitsipas among the non old players but I Still believe for most the 2 hander is the safer option

 

[demrle]

As if you could just train generations of people to play tennis like Roger Federer Like, if you could...

Yes but you can still very well keep failing while trying to do so, thus hurting the kids. Maybe that's his whole point.

Federer's is the style that needs to be championed because quite frankly it is a way of playing the game that both aspires to more, and is and has been dying out for 20 years.

While this might be a noble cause, I'm pretty sure that there are very few kids willing to sacrifice their career in the fight to preserve a dying style.

"Forced to play like Federer" Yeah, what a burden that sounds like.

But it is a burden though. You've just elaborated on how unachievable that goal is.

 

[demrle]

however, wouldn't we run into the very same problem if/when Djokodal become GOATS?

Not to that extent for sure, as Djokodal would be just that - GOATS, not these godly creatures that we, mere mortals, have been blessed with an opportunity to witness.

 

[ibbi]

Yes but you can still very well keep failing while trying to do so, thus hurting the kids. Maybe that's his whole point.



While this might be a noble cause, I'm pretty sure that there are very few kids willing to sacrifice their career in the fight to preserve a dying style.



But it is a burden though. You've just elaborated on how unachievable that goal is.

You make good points, but you are clearly imparting on him a noble argument that he is not making.

Maybe he does in the book in full, but in this interview literally all he is doing is complaining about French trainers killing variety by forcing people to play like Federer because he has the records.

If his issue was genuinely about the unrealistic lack of sustainability of such a goal that'd surely be front and centre to avoid him coming across basically like a bitter digital man complaining about the clinging on of an analog way of doing things.

 

[Bender]

I was a bit tongue in cheek with my "got anything" comment. I already like Tsitsipas a whole lot, and took notice of Musetti and Sinner recently (and Gaston, but he lacks the physical characteristics that can make him the top dog).

It definitely depends where you live. in Europe, where clay dominates, people are playing various styles, but inescapably they tend to favour the baseline, topspin oriented game a whole lot and less so all court attacking tennis. Federer is actually something of an outlier in that regard (obviously not so in the past, but we are talking the last 20 years).

I don't know, to me Nadal's aggressive game was evident in 2004/2005 when he started on the tour. I have said it many times: by creating the clay monster Toni Nadal actually deprived us of some pretty spectacular fireworks, if Nadal was actually taught to be (or remained, depending how one views it) an all court aggressive player. It is almost ridiculous to suggest that in the context of his many clay records, but I think that Nadal would have been vastly more successful and respected, if he wasn't reduced to a clay court player with a side ability to raise his level elsewhere on occasion. I find great similarities between Nadal's and Fed's FH. They were just adapted to their respective preferred surfaces and game styles, but otherwise rather similar. I don't know what the coaches saw differently in 2013.

I tried to like Tsitsipas but his personality bothers me more than it should, and I don't find his game to be particularly unique or aesthetic enough to get past it. His rather awkward looking shots don't help either, but I can see why other people would enjoy watching him. That said I don't particularly dislike him either.

People in my area do tend to play baseline tennis a lot too but since courts are limited and people aren't particularly strong or fit doubles is quite popular. Understandably people here tend to have relatively okay net games for their respective levels. Juniors are a different story but it seems to be a little 50-50 based on those I have seen and played with.

I do agree with with you said re: Nadal. Looking back, 2005 Nadal was really fun to watch because of how aggressive he was from the baseline (2004 even more so, borderline Shapovalov-style but was similarly flawed), and as a bonus his pre-serve rituals weren't as numerous back then. I also agree that although he has his ridiculous clay resume now, I think his "over-focus" on his clay game earlier in his career came at the cost of delayed success on the other surfaces (and broader appeal as you say). Perhaps his injury woes would've been delayed had he not "optimised" his game around his now-classic, attrition-based clay game and run his body into the ground. A 2006-2009 Nadal playing a post 2017 style of clay game would've quite conceivably still won a similar if not the same number of RGs in that period, and would've saved a lot of mileage. Overall, it's not that different to 2001-2003 Fed who lost precious time finding focus.

Speaking of Fed, yeah, I agree Federer and Nadal's forehands (especially their WW forehands) are almost mirror copies of each other with the only major differences being their grips and their takebacks...and even their takebacks are quite similar as I can't really think of too many other players who use their non-dominant hand to push their racquet into their dominant hand (therefore causing their dominant wrist to extend) at the start of their takebacks. Their forehands are closer now than they've ever been, with Fed more conspicuously dropping his racquet to the PTD position at the end of his takeback, and Nadal's own forehand grip becoming more conservative over time. The WW v reverse finish is more a result of shot selection than anything else and ever since Fed's switched to his 97 he's been hitting reverse forehands a lot more than he ever did with his 90.

 

[demrle]

If his issue was genuinely about the unrealistic lack of sustainability of such a goal that'd surely be front and centre to avoid him coming across basically like a bitter digital man complaining about the clinging on of an analog way of doing things.

This is a very fair point, which in a similar form, though not that well formulated, also created a certain amount of reluctance in my mind as it relates to his motivation. Nevertheless, I choose to give him a benefit of a doubt that, after all:
- he is aware of the realistic possibility if not high probability of him coming across just as badly as you described
- he is aware of his own limitations as it relates to tennis prowess and of his place in the tennis food chain
- he nonetheless sincerely believes that - by, dare I say, somewhat lowering the expectations set before young players, as well as by appealing to the abilities more abundantly represented amongst them, - one can achieve better results in developing young talent and feels a genuine need to express as much.

But then again, I tend to give people too much of a benefit of a doubt.

 

[Zardoz7/12]

Federer's game was originally based on the 1990s serve and volley. He was an aggressive Sampras-esc player who would try to finish the point off when given an opportunity, in 2004 he played more from the baseline and became even more dangerous, then in 2014 he employed Edberg and he was using the same tactics he used in his youth, rushing the net, finish points off early, serve and volley which got the better of players like Murray and Berdych who didn't beat Federer after 2013.

Tennis' evolution is cyclical, I think the future of tennis will be how Federer plays, maybe without a one handed backhand but still more net play, Simon is wrong but Simon in his own right a solid player, I like his relaxed backhand, like he's sweeping a floor. Federer to me is the most aesthetically pleasing player of all time.

 

[UnderratedSlam]

The idea that the winner of the slam race will decide how french kids train is stupid. It can't be denied. But don't forget it is only a few lines picked by the publishers to sell it. I'm sure his opinions are much better explained in the book.

@UnderratedSlam is absolutely right here, that is what Simon meant. The french federation of tennis mostly trusts very talented kids with flashy skills. This is the profile they are looking for because there is too much old school thinking in vigor. Simon has already talked about that in the past, and Yannick Noah too. They don't believe in kids who just show great determination, i think it is a bit elitist.

I'm sure Simon IS salty because they actually didn't believe in him and didn't really help him. As a small guy who made everything against the odds and with a laborious brainy gamestyle, he is kind of annoyed at Roger's popularity, because the narrative people know about him is mostly his incredible talent, and he would want to be recognize for what he himself did (I give him the ultimate overachiever title, I have a lot of respect for him). Just look at Nadal and Federer's favorite movies, it tells everything : Gladiator and Will Hunting.

Absolutely, everything you said. The French keep selecting potential federers, and as long as they do they will probably never have another slam champ. Tennis isn't ART it is STRUGGLE. But the French are generally rumoured to be a very artistic people so maybe they foolishly try to artify tennis even. Yes, they need to fund grinders as well as the flashy kids or Spaniards will be snatching up their FO for decades...

I laughed at the movie comparison. Both movies are vastly overrated, but I'd waste my time much rather on "Gladiator" than that awful Ben Affleck/Mat Damon vehicle...

 

[Otacon]

this is a strange one

his main point of contention here is that Fed's style will predominate the juniors because all the coaches want to make mini-Feds

however, wouldn't we run into the very same problem if/when Djokodal become GOATS?

every kid is gonna be forced into a two hander and taught to camp the baseline

you can argue this already is a problem considering the new gens are allergic to net play and have a seizure every time they attempt a volley

Flawed logic from Simon here, which is surprising.

 

[GhostOfNKDM]

I say coaches should teach players to play like Karlovic.