Girl can hit ATP forehand

Curious

Legend
This girl is hitting perfect ATP forehands, even at 4.5-5.0 level. It’s hard to understand why pro women still mostly insist on WTA style. And that way they’re giving the misogynistic men ongoing grounds to argue that it’s an inherent weakness of women .

 

Richboi

Rookie
This girl is hitting perfect ATP forehands, even at 4.5-5.0 level. It’s hard to understand why pro women still mostly insist on WTA style. And that way they’re giving the misogynistic men ongoing grounds to argue that it’s an inherent weakness of women .

It’s even more atp than atp forehands. Lol. I see potential arm problems. Needs a little tweak, but very nice hitting nonetheless. Her hitting partner is solid too


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TnsGuru

Professional
Look at the way Justine Henin hit her FH. She hit ATP style and she isn't a very big person, maybe 5' 6" and sort of a lightweight compared to her peers but she could wallop a tennis ball just as hard or even harder than people who towered over her.

WTA style to me is for a developing players who will eventually learn to cut down on the backswing and learn to hit ATP style.
Li Na's FH became better when her former coach Carlos Rodriguez fixed it enabling her to win 2 majors. Is it a coincidence that these two ladies hit an ATP style FH? Not really, because Carlos coached Henin first before he teamed up with Li Na. I believe he instilled the ATP style to both his protege's. Very few ladies even hit this style which baffles me because it has been proven it can be very effective not just for males but females also.
 

TnsGuru

Professional
How long do they need to develop for?!

Can you guess who this is? Shapavolov as a young boy and you can see he hit what resembles a WTA FH but as he became stronger and more coordinated he learned to hit his forehand with less backswing.
I see where you are going with Halep as an example, I think she is a fantastic hitter but I think her FH could be so much better without the little extra backswing she uses.
 
This girl is hitting perfect ATP forehands, even at 4.5-5.0 level. It’s hard to understand why pro women still mostly insist on WTA style. And that way they’re giving the misogynistic men ongoing grounds to argue that it’s an inherent weakness of women .

That is old news, women have occasionally hit atp forehands for 30 years now.

It can work but the advantage for women isn't as big as they don't have as much excess racket speed which means their topspin can sit up when they don't have enough strength.

Errani is a good example for this, she hits a heavy spin and it works on clay but on hard court it can get punished.

If you are strong enough like kuznetsova or stosur it can work though.

It really depends on the body. You need to be able to generate pop in a short window and some prefer a longer and smoother acceleration.

I don't think it is as simple as "the future is ATP and it is just an evolution" because ATP forehands have existed 20 years ago in the WTA (mauresmo, henin) and you could argue that even before that huber, sanchez and sabatini hit atp forehands and yet it didn't fully catch on.

I think it is good for some and not so much for others but the advantage isn't as big as on the atp because you don't have as much excess strength that needs to be converted into spin.
 

FiReFTW

Legend
That is old news, women have occasionally hit atp forehands for 30 years now.

It can work but the advantage for women isn't as big as they don't have as much excess racket speed which means their topspin can sit up when they don't have enough strength.

Errani is a good example for this, she hits a heavy spin and it works on clay but on hard court it can get punished.

If you are strong enough like kuznetsova or stosur it can work though.

It really depends on the body. You need to be able to generate pop in a short window and some prefer a longer and smoother acceleration.

I don't think it is as simple as "the future is ATP and it is just an evolution" because ATP forehands have existed 20 years ago in the WTA (mauresmo, henin) and you could argue that even before that huber, sanchez and sabatini hit atp forehands and yet it didn't fully catch on.

I think it is good for some and not so much for others but the advantage isn't as big as on the atp because you don't have as much excess strength that needs to be converted into spin.
Yeah exactly, people ign*rantly assume that atp forehand is better in every way and case, when its not, its a matter of alot of things, strenght, gamestyle etc... women are not as fast as men and rely on hitting the ball through the court more, which means flatter strokes, and they don't have the racquet speed so especially from tough on the run positions they would be producing slow loopy topspin sitters etc etc...
 

Curious

Legend
That is old news, women have occasionally hit atp forehands for 30 years now.

It can work but the advantage for women isn't as big as they don't have as much excess racket speed which means their topspin can sit up when they don't have enough strength.

Errani is a good example for this, she hits a heavy spin and it works on clay but on hard court it can get punished.

If you are strong enough like kuznetsova or stosur it can work though.

It really depends on the body. You need to be able to generate pop in a short window and some prefer a longer and smoother acceleration.

I don't think it is as simple as "the future is ATP and it is just an evolution" because ATP forehands have existed 20 years ago in the WTA (mauresmo, henin) and you could argue that even before that huber, sanchez and sabatini hit atp forehands and yet it didn't fully catch on.

I think it is good for some and not so much for others but the advantage isn't as big as on the atp because you don't have as much excess strength that needs to be converted into spin.
Hmmm. In that case no rec player should try to hit ATP forehands, right?!
I presume you don’t think rec people can swing faster than pro women.
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
WTA players don’t hit “ATP forehands” because they don’t have to and it’s not necessary. It is also not necessary for male or female recreational players. What is called “the ATP forehand” (at least in the online YouTube world, no one uses this terminology in real life) is just an evolution reacting to the speed of the ATP game. WTA players and any recreational players just do not have the fast twitch muscles or athletic explosiveness to actually hit a heavy ball this way. I would laugh at any 4.0 male trying to generate enough power this way. It’s not that it can’t be done, but the 4.0 male adult player just doesn’t have the goods to do this. Nor do most 4.5s.
 

golden chicken

Professional
Girl in the OP's video has I guess what you'd call an ATP takeback, but still has the bent elbow swing and contact that I think characterizes the "WTA" forehand vs the "ATP".
 
Hmmm. In that case no rec player should try to hit ATP forehands, right?!
I presume you don’t think rec people can swing faster than pro women.
I do hit an atp forehand.for rec sitting up is less of an issue if the ball is hit reasonably deep. Against Serena Williams a topspin that sits up is serious trouble though and you better have serious arm speed to make it penetrate.
 

WildVolley

Legend
... I would laugh at any 4.0 male trying to generate enough power this way. It’s not that it can’t be done, but the 4.0 male adult player just doesn’t have the goods to do this. Nor do most 4.5s.
This is completely wrong. A number of players on my 4.0 team hit the ATP-style forehands.

Do they average as fast as the professionals? No, but they usually are shorter, older, and spend limited hours training. For example, one of the guys is Filipino, about 5'5", over 50, and looks like he's going to get the bump up to 4.5. His forehand is a weapon.

Do they average as fast of balls as the 4.0 players who hit WTA-style? Yes, probably. When you factor in speed and spin, they hit as well.

I don't think there's any reason for the adult rec-player to worry about the ATP or WTA style. However, from experience, I don't think there's any reason not to teach the ATP-style from the start. With adult men I'm not seeing any loss of pace or spin.

Guys at the 4.0 level are all over the place in terms of how they hit. Some guys only dink. Some guys try to hit as hard as they can. Some look like complete hacks. Others have very pretty strokes. In my experience, the level is defined primarily by less fitness and consistency than higher levels.
 
This girl is hitting perfect ATP forehands, even at 4.5-5.0 level. It’s hard to understand why pro women still mostly insist on WTA style. And that way they’re giving the misogynistic men ongoing grounds to argue that it’s an inherent weakness of women .

Looked at several forehands and not much separation. ? Strong hip turn.
 

Kevo

Legend
She's developed that forehand around a rather extreme grip. She did seem to net a low slice in that sequence, but a lot of the slices he hit her sat up. I'd like to see how she handles someone driving some low slices to her forehand. Not that she'd probably play many girls that would do that, but I lot of the older guys I play with, especially doubles guys, are really good at hitting balls that don't make it knee high.
 

bostontennis

New User
In the first video, the girl didn't hit a good ATP forehand, due to her lack use or simply lack of shoulder strength. that makes her over-rotate shoulder. she can get away with it at her current level but this weakness will be explored by opponent if she moves up.

WTA forehand are used by female player by design, not by mistake. Remember this, there are many high paid coaches. When they are paid and train girls doing that, there got to be a reason. Amateurs like us usually aren't more correct.
 

Raul_SJ

Legend
In the first video, the girl didn't hit a good ATP forehand, due to her lack use or simply lack of shoulder strength. that makes her over-rotate shoulder. she can get away with it at her current level but this weakness will be explored by opponent if she moves up.

WTA forehand are used by female player by design, not by mistake. Remember this, there are many high paid coaches. When they are paid and train girls doing that, there got to be a reason. Amateurs like us usually aren't more correct.
Don't know what you mean by the OP girl overrotating the shoulder. Do not see it in the video.
 

Kevo

Legend
Yeah, Djokovic's grip is plenty extreme. She seems to be going even more extreme. She also doesn't seem to be timing the turn of the racquet into the ball as nicely as he does. But in any case she's hitting the ball well.
 

Fxanimator1

Hall of Fame
Yeah, Djokovic's grip is plenty extreme. She seems to be going even more extreme. She also doesn't seem to be timing the turn of the racquet into the ball as nicely as he does. But in any case she's hitting the ball well.
I would be extremely surprised if she did anything in regards to stroke production as well as Djokovic.
 

Dragy

Hall of Fame
I would be extremely surprised if she did anything in regards to stroke production as well as Djokovic.
I would be extremely surprised if anyone but several ones we all know did anything in regards to stroke production as well as Djokovic. Girl just hits decent forehands, and her main advantage against peers will be ability to hit same quality forehand with shorter preparation, in tighter situations time-wise, therefore her shot tolerance will be higher.
 

bostontennis

New User
Don't know what you mean by the OP girl overrotating the shoulder. Do not see it in the video.
she finishes too much to the left. the highest racquet head speed happened after contact point.
all these symptoms were caused by her not using shoulder power, which is the core different from WTA forehand.
so her so call ATP forehand doesn't have any advantage.
 
That is old news, women have occasionally hit atp forehands for 30 years now.

It can work but the advantage for women isn't as big as they don't have as much excess racket speed which means their topspin can sit up when they don't have enough strength.

Errani is a good example for this, she hits a heavy spin and it works on clay but on hard court it can get punished.

If you are strong enough like kuznetsova or stosur it can work though.

It really depends on the body. You need to be able to generate pop in a short window and some prefer a longer and smoother acceleration.

I don't think it is as simple as "the future is ATP and it is just an evolution" because ATP forehands have existed 20 years ago in the WTA (mauresmo, henin) and you could argue that even before that huber, sanchez and sabatini hit atp forehands and yet it didn't fully catch on.

I think it is good for some and not so much for others but the advantage isn't as big as on the atp because you don't have as much excess strength that needs to be converted into spin.
I think WTA forehand has a relation to the emergence of big babe tennis. I don't remember Graf having such a huge take back either though her FH was neither ATP nor WTA and something else altogether, lol. For really tall women, particularly the more long legged and less balanced ones, it made sense to maximise power and pull the trigger early. I don't know that it needs to be taught to shorter women who could ideally use their better movement to defend well and make their opponents beat themselves. This may be where the coaching got a bit one size fits all.

Also, there aren't many female rec players in this forum and particularly not those who have played high level tennis as juniors. It would be interesting to ask THEM how they feel about it. I asked my coach whether they intentionally teach girls to have a bigger takeback and he said no, they add a bigger takeback naturally while looking for power. One other thing that doesn't really come out in these ATP vs WTA comparisons is whether the point of contact is the same, whether it is equally out in front for both styles.
 

Dragy

Hall of Fame
Also, there aren't many female rec players in this forum and particularly not those who have played high level tennis as juniors. It would be interesting to ask THEM how they feel about it. I asked my coach whether they intentionally teach girls to have a bigger takeback and he said no, they add a bigger takeback naturally while looking for power. One other thing that doesn't really come out in these ATP vs WTA comparisons is whether the point of contact is the same, whether it is equally out in front for both styles.
Most players would add bigger backswing for power, as kids do for punches and throws unless they are taught the proper way, or have some talent put together with lots of practice to figure better way.
You can hit a ball over the net with a low-effort pendulum swing from compact takeback (think Nole or Stan FH or Caro Garcia takeback). You can add some torso rotation, then WW into contact, still keeping it all relaxed and smooth. You can do it with decently weighted racquet - you’ll be good for rec level rallying. THEN you want more power, what are you going to do?
- The intuitive option is to swing with more effort, give longer run from bigger backswing, etc. that’s “WTA” way;
- “ATP” solution was partially forced by lack of time to increase stroke length, time to set up and execute. Some pioneers discovered, and other developed, that one can inject all power required into an existing swing tempo, by driving accelerated torso rotation at proper moment while establishing efficient link through shoulder and arm towards racquet (the glorious racquet flip, aka lag and release).

Ladies applying ATP style get advantage mostly being able to hit full TS drives against better incoming balls, which is extremely beneficial against the hard-hitting tour. You can no more just bash the ball through them.
 

DavaiMarat

Professional
This girl is hitting perfect ATP forehands, even at 4.5-5.0 level. It’s hard to understand why pro women still mostly insist on WTA style. And that way they’re giving the misogynistic men ongoing grounds to argue that it’s an inherent weakness of women .

Obviously a good player but I wouldn't say her forehand is a model ATP forehand. She has some aspects but falls short in other respects. One of main similarities is the fact her stroke start to finish remains predominantly on the right side but here's where I see a difference. She actually lays the racquet back in the pat the dog and then accelerates forward. There is a definitely hitch there for anyone with a train coaching eye. ATP players 'flip' their racquet in the uncoiling phase. Also the finish high-above a shoulder delineates a very long vertical swing path. Much more classical then a ATP forehand which is on average more linear compact swing path. Lastly, what's with the Hawaiian grip!??! Anyhow, can you be a 4.5 with no tournament history?!

The wristy-ness of her forehand, probably due to her grip, is going to give her issues with players who hit flag and hard. Lastly couple with a babolat frame, that a recipe for injury.
I wish her well but there will be wrist problems.
 

Keendog

Semi-Pro
Obviously a good player but I wouldn't say her forehand is a model ATP forehand. She has some aspects but falls short in other respects. One of main similarities is the fact her stroke start to finish remains predominantly on the right side but here's where I see a difference. She actually lays the racquet back in the pat the dog and then accelerates forward. There is a definitely hitch there for anyone with a train coaching eye. ATP players 'flip' their racquet in the uncoiling phase. Also the finish high-above a shoulder delineates a very long vertical swing path. Much more classical then a ATP forehand which is on average more linear compact swing path. Lastly, what's with the Hawaiian grip!??! Anyhow, can you be a 4.5 with no tournament history?!

The wristy-ness of her forehand, probably due to her grip, is going to give her issues with players who hit flag and hard. Lastly couple with a babolat frame, that a recipe for injury.
I wish her well but there will be wrist problems.
I think she is actively using her wrist to accelerate the racquet as she runs out of shoulder and hip rotation, and the windscreen wiper finish instead of a forearm roll is her just bending the elbow. I.e she is forcing it. She is doing her best, but compared to her backhand which just looks natural, even when warming up she can't seem to control the depth or height of shot whereas her partner is giving very consistent balls back.

When match plays begins the points are all forehand short balls or errors, and she runs around many forehands to hit a backhand. So thats how good she feels her forehand is. So maybe its still under construction but also maybe someone just "thinks its better and she should learn it that way" rather than letting the player do what is natural to them. It's the same when choosing a single or double hand backhand, you can add up the positives and negatives all you like but in the end you need to choose the one that is most comfortable for you.

But what do I know
 
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This is completely wrong. A number of players on my 4.0 team hit the ATP-style forehands.

Do they average as fast as the professionals? No, but they usually are shorter, older, and spend limited hours training. For example, one of the guys is Filipino, about 5'5", over 50, and looks like he's going to get the bump up to 4.5. His forehand is a weapon.

Do they average as fast of balls as the 4.0 players who hit WTA-style? Yes, probably. When you factor in speed and spin, they hit as well.

I don't think there's any reason for the adult rec-player to worry about the ATP or WTA style. However, from experience, I don't think there's any reason not to teach the ATP-style from the start. With adult men I'm not seeing any loss of pace or spin.

Guys at the 4.0 level are all over the place in terms of how they hit. Some guys only dink. Some guys try to hit as hard as they can. Some look like complete hacks. Others have very pretty strokes. In my experience, the level is defined primarily by less fitness and consistency than higher levels.
With 4.0 Players a "Sitting up" topspin isn't also that big of a problem because even a heavy but soft ball will trouble 4.0 players.

At the WTA this happens when a topspin sits up too much

I'm not saying it can't be done at the WTA as women like kuznetsova, stosur, henin or mauresmo prove but you definitely need above average strength to not have the spin sit up too much. henin was a bit of an exception but while she wasnt big she was an extreme fast twitch athlete who was very explosive.

It can work for WTA players but you need to be the right type athlete, either very strong or very explosive vs women who like to generate speed more with a longer more gradual acceleration.

The atp technique is good but its no magic trick, there are plenty atp forehand women outside the top200 but of course plenty wta forehand girls too.
 

WildVolley

Legend
With 4.0 Players a "Sitting up" topspin isn't also that big of a problem because even a heavy but soft ball will trouble 4.0 players.
...
So, I take you believe the WTA-style forehand, even at the rec-level, creates a flatter ball?

I'm not sure I completely understand your post. The question above restated: Do you believe the primary advantage/disadvantage to the ATP-fh is more spin production?
 
So, I take you believe the WTA-style forehand, even at the rec-level, creates a flatter ball?

I'm not sure I completely understand your post. The question above restated: Do you believe the primary advantage/disadvantage to the ATP-fh is more spin production?
I think the time saving aspect is a bit overblown because even at the pro level you can just start the takeback earlier unless it is a ROS or body shot. chardy had an early layback and his forehand was one of the best on tour. Not saying it is ideal but you can make it work.
 

DavaiMarat

Professional
I think she is actively using her wrist to accelerate the racquet as she runs out of shoulder and hip rotation, and the windscreen wiper finish instead of a forearm roll is her just bending the elbow. I.e she is forcing it. She is doing her best, but compared to her backhand which just looks natural, even when warming up she can't seem to control the depth or height of shot whereas her partner is giving very consistent balls back.

When match plays begins the points are all forehand short balls or errors, and she runs around many forehands to hit a backhand. So thats how good she feels her forehand is. So maybe its still under construction but also maybe someone just "thinks its better and she should learn it that way" rather than letting the player do what is natural to them. It's the same when choosing a single or double hand backhand, you can add up the positives and negatives all you like but in the end you need to choose the one that is most comfortable for you.

But what do I know
I agree in principle however proof is in the pudding. If her forehand is effective vs. her competition and doesn't give her wrist issues more power to her. However, if it doesn't well....a few tweaks might go a long way.
 

Dartagnan64

Legend
It's clear that the abundance of WTA FH's on the WTA tour and the occasional WTA FH on the ATP tour means that it matters little. It's a preference like the 2HBH vs 1HBH wars. They both exist amongst high level pros so one can't be significantly better than the other.

Fussing about it when most people's real problems in tennis are footwork, fitness and focus is really losing sight of the big issues in tennis evolution.

And the woman in the vid was clearly taught by the guy who obviously believes in the ATP style as his FH is an overexaggerated version of it. I've seen a ton of woman with WTA FH's that would outhit her any day.
 

heninfan99

Talk Tennis Guru
She lays the racket back actively rather than a passive flip back. It’s WTA style, maybe not as exaggerated as others.
No. Not on any that she isn't moving backwards on. It's well within the range of ATP forehands.
You can see here
 
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Dragy

Hall of Fame
Giorgi doesn't hit ATP FH as her swing isn't segmented, which is requied to deliver major power in brief period of time. Never comes through this posture:

If you want to watch some ladies with clean ATP mechanics, look at Petra Martic and Karolina Muchova. Barty drops RH back at the end of backswing, but from there she's right on track:
 

Dragy

Hall of Fame
You are approaching YouTube coach golden rule of not making a video shorter than 8 min no matter how small a thing is. They are obligated, though, by YouTube monetizing principles, but we are free to keep our home videos just as long as needed to depict an idea. Follow the Code!
 

heninfan99

Talk Tennis Guru
drops RH back at the end of backswing, but from there she's right on track:
^Yes on track but not as good imo

^See how she's leading with the rotation of the hips and shoulders and the racquet lags behind? That's multi-segmental, perhaps not to the extreme of Djokovic but multi nevertheless.
 

Dragy

Hall of Fame
^Yes on track but not as good imo

^See how she's leading with the rotation of the hips and shoulders and the racquet lags behind? That's multi-segmental, perhaps not to the extreme of Djokovic but multi nevertheless.
The difference comes further on. She’ll be completing her rotation while swinging arm forward simultaneously. Djokovic will complete torso rotation with arm fully back, no chest flexion, just stretch, then pass the momentum to arm. The marker is exactly what I showed in those still frames: torso already facing the net while arm still trailing.
 
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