GOAT distance runner? Interesting read on Mo Farah, era strength etc

[kandamrgam]

How can you consider a 10,000 a distance run?
Runners run TWO Marathons. Runner's race for 24 hours straight. THAT is distance running.
You might as well say a 200 is a distance run. Certainly double the 100, and quaduple the 50.

It's classified as long distance all over internet, though.

 

[Noveson]

Dean Karnazes was one of my windsurfing buds. We sailed slalom and waves together, in the year's around '86 thru "92, when he got into Ultra Marathon running.

Well that's a really cool guy to know. You can call whatever you want distance running. The rest of the world will continue to call anything over a 5k distance running.

 

[Chicharito]

Mo can't run as fast as people from the era when epo was undectable and blood bags where rife...

 

[Sysyphus]

Mo can't run as fast as people from the era when epo was undectable and blood bags where rife...

Yeah, such as the 2008 era of lore, for instance. Those darn long-distance Ethiopians and their widely known rampant doping culture..

Warning, I smell some Brit bias above

 

[LeeD]

It's classified as long distance all over internet, though.

Yes, and Donald Trump is classified as a "potential POTUS candidate". Do you believe everything you read?

 

[Chicharito]

Yeah, such as the 2008 era of lore, for instance. Those darn long-distance Ethiopians and their widely known rampant doping culture..

Warning, I smell some Brit bias above

Brit Bias?

LOL. I am not British.

Nothing to with Ethiopia, just eras. Epo and blood doping was rampant back then. And yes that includes 2008.

I think long distance is cleaner today. Not convinced it is clean though.

Cyclists have slowed down too. Cycling is cleaner today, not sure how clean though.

Cleaner = Slower

 

[Sysyphus]

Brit Bias?

LOL. I am not British and probably biased against Brits in sport. The last two weeks have had me reaching for the sick
bucket.

Nothing to with Ethopia, just eras. Epo and blood doping was rampant back then. And yes that includes 2008.

I think long distance is cleaner today. Not convinced it is clean though.

Cyclists have slowed down too. Cycling is cleaner today, not sure how clean though.

Cleaner = Slower

Are you not from Northern Ireland or some such?

Either way, there's no proof at all that Farah is squeaky clean and those who ran faster than him just a few years back full of dope. Truth is that there is not a widespread doping culture associated with East African long-distance, and less so than with European athletes, so such an allegation is indeed biased and unwarranted, whatever the cause of it may be. Do the top Africans run slower now? Yeah. Why? Because the greater part of talent is going to marathon. And no, EPO was not undetectable in 2008. The so-called EPO-era was in the 90s.

 

[Chicharito]

Was talking about blood bags in 2008.

I have no idea who is clean and who is dirty. But for me when comparing times over eras, doping is an unavoidable topic.

I wasn't meaning to say anyone was dirty, but it has to be part of this conversation imo.

Also.the stuff coming.out.of Kenya is not good. Maybe there just isn't a culture of being caught.

--------
Anyway just read the article. Good discussion and yes they did mention the absence of an EPO test for HG.

Obviously the game has changed now Farah has picked up those golds.

Does that make him the GOAT? No, but he is in the conversation.

 

[kandamrgam]

When I check the records of various running events I see a pattern with winners:

- Sprint events (100-400m) are dominated by blacks in western hemisphere (Americans, Jamaicans etc)
- Middle distance (800-3000m) are dominated by north Africans (Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco). Well not exactly dominated, but you see a lot of them.
- Long distance (5000-10000m) events are dominated by east Africans (Kenya, Ethiopia, Somalia, Uganda)

Should tell you something about the genetic make-up. You also see a lot of world record setting 1500m runners from China in women's but not in men's, and also not in 800 or 5000m. Interesting.

 

[kandamrgam]

Can we all safely say tier-1 ATGs of moderns times are Gebreselassie, El Guerrouj, Bekele, Farah and Rudisha from 800m onwards?

 

[Vcore89]

There is El Guerrouj and Haile Gebrselassie and then there's the rest of them.
...
Bekele? He must've eaten too much bacon.

 

[Vcore89]

Bekele looks the same after his WR. But it's hard to imagine that he could have run much (if any) faster.

My best 5K time was roughly 5 minute miles. When I finished, I wasn't dead, but all the same, I couldn't have run any faster time

Neither impressed nor is it particularly impressive [it's just sub 5-minute miles for 3.1 miles. Some 8th grader ran 13:39!], he's *****' supposed to be able to bring it [5-minute mile] each and most everytime being a world class runner. Otherwise, any pacemaker would have blitzed him the first two miles and he'd be done for! Like Lance Armstrong grimacing [pretending or not] during the mountain stages but when the race is over he feels almost the same as whence before the race started, no biggie for a world class athlete not on juice [but wasn't Bekele?].

 

[Deleted member 688153]

Guys.....
DISTANCE running is not running for 15 minutes. DISTANCE running is like Ultra Marathon running, double Marathons, 24 hour running races, that's DISTANCE running.

TIL a marathon is not distance running.

Whatever you say, man.

 

[Sentinel]

May be not. I think Haile Gebrselassie and Kenenisa Bekele have better claims, especially Kenenisa Bekele.

Agree with you there, although I know it is subjective when you use different criteria.

I honestly dont give world record much importance there

I've been hearing this all my life and I don't understand why WR's are not given importance. If you are a competitive runner then you do understand that on any given day all the runners and not at their best and many are not even there.

In any given Olympics (or any championship) several of the top runners could be injured, or returning from illness injury, maybe some did not peak at the right time, or some did not peak for their countries trials and failed to qualify etc etc.

However, a person's PR is his best time at the time when he was at his best. He always has a chance to repeat it, if he is not well on that day. He has many many chances to improve his PR. And the WR is the best PR of all the runners. So a WR may not have the glamour of a championship medal but not giving it importance.

Do you know it is like to be running under 61 seconds for 12 laps !! Have you seen Bekele run at that pace ?

I know this is personal but I find this habit of Mo's of running at the back of the pack, or coming in front and slowing down the pace, and finally making it a 200m race to be a travesty. Even the women's races have been faster than the men's. I know that a championship race is about winning, and about tactics ... I suppose Mo is plain lucky that there is no one there to keep up a stiff pace and run his legs off. Since the last OG, everyone has played right into his hands by running 72 or 75 second laps.

 

[Russeljones]

http://www.letsrun.com/news/2015/02...h-be-considered-the-goat-greatest-of-all-time

I came across that link and thought the arguments are well thought out. It makes the same exact arguments we see in these boards regarding tennis GOAT. Weak era/competition, h2h, physical prime, more successful vs better etc.

Not at all a big fan of long distance running but I had thought Mo Farah could be the greatest distance runner of all time after his double double exploits. May be not. I think Haile Gebrselassie and Kenenisa Bekele have better claims, especially Kenenisa Bekele.

He ain't sh*t. What world record does he hold?

 

[Sentinel]

Galen Rupp? Good training partner for distance runners [including Mo]? Not quite.

I find his attitude of playing second fiddle to Mo a bit revolting for that level. You've slogged your ass off day and night for ten years or more, and you are more concerned about your training partner winning a medal !!!

In 2020, if Mo runs the marathon, will Rupp be looking around for him all the time and give up his chance at a medal?

 

[Vcore89]

I find his attitude of playing second fiddle to Mo a bit revolting for that level. You've slogged your ass off day and night for ten years or more, and you are more concerned about your training partner winning a medal !!!

In 2020, if Mo runs the marathon, will Rupp be looking around for him all the time and give up his chance at a medal?

I'm guessing Mo won't be able to sustain his final 150 metres kick by age 37 [physiological over psychological] against unknown [fear of the unknown] up-and-coming competition. Rupp is bound by military-like subordination under Salazar. Plus, you know that Rupp is task to make sure it isn't a wide open race.

 

[Sentinel]

I'm guessing Mo won't be able to sustain his final 150 metres kick by age 37 [physiological over psychological] against unknown [fear of the unknown] up-and-coming competition. Rupp is bound by military-like subordination under Salazar. Plus, you know that Rupp is task to make sure it isn't a wide open race.

From what I heard, Mo will not be competing on track in 2020, he may try the marathon. Let's see how he fares. Olympic marathons usually have not been known to be fast affairs, so if he can keep in touch ...

 

[Noveson]

He ain't sh*t. What world record does he hold?

Not sure if you're joking. He holds the WR AND the Olympic record in BOTH the 5,000 and the 10,000 meters...

 

[Sysyphus]

Not sure if you're joking. He holds the WR AND the Olympic record in BOTH the 5,000 and the 10,000 meters...

Strongly guessing he means Farah, not Bekele. The bolding of Bekele's name was done by the original poast author himself.


As for Farah, well he does hold the highly coveted indoor double mile record kek

 

[Krish872007]

Interesting discussion. I would say it's worth noting that Mo Farah doesn't necessarily run to set WR times - his ultimate aim is to control the race, deliberately slow it down and then ramp up the speed on the last lap. And the way in which he deals with the last lap suggests that he certainly does have plenty in the tank and more to give if he were to set out quickly as well.

 

[Sysyphus]

Interesting discussion. I would say it's worth noting that Mo Farah doesn't necessarily run to set WR times - his ultimate aim is to control the race, deliberately slow it down and then ramp up the speed on the last lap. And the way in which he deals with the last lap suggests that he certainly does have plenty in the tank and more to give if he were to set out quickly as well.

Running a huge last lap is utterly different from holding major pace for a whole 10 or 5k tho'. Different energy systems, different skills.

If he had any chance of breaking the world records, he would try to do so.

 

[MatsPhilander]

Henry Rono. One of the greatest never to make it to the Olympics due to boycotts.

 

[kandamrgam]

Agree with you there, although I know it is subjective when you use different criteria.


I've been hearing this all my life and I don't understand why WR's are not given importance. If you are a competitive runner then you do understand that on any given day all the runners and not at their best and many are not even there.

In any given Olympics (or any championship) several of the top runners could be injured, or returning from illness injury, maybe some did not peak at the right time, or some did not peak for their countries trials and failed to qualify etc etc.

However, a person's PR is his best time at the time when he was at his best. He always has a chance to repeat it, if he is not well on that day. He has many many chances to improve his PR. And the WR is the best PR of all the runners. So a WR may not have the glamour of a championship medal but not giving it importance.

Do you know it is like to be running under 61 seconds for 12 laps !! Have you seen Bekele run at that pace ?

I know this is personal but I find this habit of Mo's of running at the back of the pack, or coming in front and slowing down the pace, and finally making it a 200m race to be a travesty. Even the women's races have been faster than the men's. I know that a championship race is about winning, and about tactics ... I suppose Mo is plain lucky that there is no one there to keep up a stiff pace and run his legs off. Since the last OG, everyone has played right into his hands by running 72 or 75 second laps.

You say that championship race is about winning and tactics and that's the whole thing I have been posting here. If race is tactical and not raw speed how does it matter if an athlete's PR is WR or not? We really have to see long distance running different from short distance. But @Sysyphus has a better perspective on this: If Mo could have held the WRs, he would be going for it and he couldn't.

 

[Sysyphus]

You say that championship race is about winning and tactics and that's the whole thing I have been posting here. If race is tactical and not raw speed how does it matter if an athlete's PR is WR or not? We really have to see long distance running different from short distance. But @Sysyphus has a better perspective on this: If Mo could have held the WRs, he would be going for it and he couldn't.

Note that I'm not claiming that the major point in a championship race isn't to finish first. It is. That's the same with 100m in principle. Doesn't matter much that Bolt won gold in "only" 9.81 in Rio. He won after all. But it also matters for his legacy that he proved he could push the world record stunningly far beyond where it had been, and set it at a level no one has come close to.

And ditto it's a point that gets considered with long-distance runners what times they are capable of at their best. That's a prime part of what gets compared when we look between "eras" and so on. Not just the time in itself, but also how much they moved the sport forward. Gebrselassie moved long-distance to another level with the pace he brought. Bekele slightly topped him in turn, but that is sometimes used as a point in Haile's favor: he moved the sport a lot singlehandedly, whereas Kenenisa in some ways stood on the shoulders of giants, or so some will argue. Mo OTOH has not brought the pace further forward, but is obviously (as Senti said) feasting a bit on the fact that no one is bringing that kind of steady pace anymore. So I'm basically in agreement with Senti's poast, I think. I too think it's a bit of a travesty that so many of the championship races of late have been rather slow and that the field is playing into Farah's hands. But mad respect to him for being the unique finisher that he is.

But yea, if Farah genuinely had pace to come close to the record, he'd at least go for it outside of a championship. His team has the resources to arrange that, but he doesn't have that kind of pace.

 

[kandamrgam]

Note that I'm not claiming that the major point in a championship race isn't to finish first. It is. That's the same with 100m in principle. Doesn't matter much that Bolt won gold in "only" 9.81 in Rio. He won after all. But it also matters for his legacy that he proved he could push the world record stunningly far beyond where it had been, and set it at a level no one has come close to.

And ditto it's a point that gets considered with long-distance runners what times they are capable of at their best. That's a prime part of what gets compared when we look between "eras" and so on. Not just the time in itself, but also how much they moved the sport forward. Gebrselassie moved long-distance to another level with the pace he brought. Bekele slightly topped him in turn, but that is sometimes used as a point in Haile's favor: he moved the sport a lot singlehandedly, whereas Kenenisa in some ways stood on the shoulders of giants, or so some will argue. Mo OTOH has not brought the pace further forward, but is obviously (as Senti said) feasting a bit on the fact that no one is bringing that kind of steady pace anymore. So I'm basically in agreement with Senti's poast, I think. I too think it's a bit of a travesty that so many of the championship races of late have been rather slow and that the field is playing into Farah's hands. But mad respect to him for being the unique finisher that he is.

I certainly see the point in setting WRs but often explanations for it is not convincing for me including your this post. There is a big difference in principles of 100m and 10000m. The margin of error in 100-400m is sooooooooo low that the only principle is to run as fast as you can. Breaking PBs and WRs are a natural part of it. These are sprint events. It matter's to legacy of Bolt way way more than legacy of Mo. I dont get it when people say "Mo was never was as fast as Haile", but when you put it like "Mo would badly want that one record which he could never achieve" that put things in perspective and now I am in agreement with you and Senti (btw, I did get that you were supporting him when I last tagged you). The difference is, in the first line of argument one is pitting Mo against his challengers and he never had to be that fast (again my line of argument that long distance running is not about pace), but in the second line of argument one is pitting Mo against himself, his legacy in which case he ought to be faster than Haile.

 

[Sysyphus]

There's really not much more to it than that having a great PR or setting records is an integral part of the conception of a great runner — separately from results — for most with any interest or knowledge in the matter. Not really anything to be convinced by or not, because it isn't an argument, just like "slams are important in tennis" is not an argument but just a description of what people tend to find important.

 

[kandamrgam]

There's really not much more to it than that having a great PR or setting records is an integral part of the conception of a great runner — separately from results — for most with any interest or knowledge in the matter. Not really anything to be convinced by or not, because it isn't an argument, just like "slams are important in tennis" is not an argument but just a description of what people tend to find important.

Dont see what you are coming to. When people have different takes on what constitutes to "most" important there are arguments. People finding Slams important could be a description, but not something terribly interesitng in a discource 2 page long. The fact that only some people adheres to that belief leads to arguments which would then need to be convincing.

 

[Sentinel]

Henry Rono. One of the greatest never to make it to the Olympics due to boycotts.

Great runner... I remember his WR's for various distances - I had just begun distance running myself in those days so his times/records are very much part of my own memories (in a way).

Just looked him up, he is now coaching high school athletics at Albuquerque, NM.

 

[Russeljones]

Strongly guessing he means Farah, not Bekele. The bolding of Bekele's name was done by the original poast author himself.


As for Farah, well he does hold the highly coveted indoor double mile record kek

Thank you for pointing him in the direction of logic.

 

[kandamrgam]

From what I heard, Mo will not be competing on track in 2020, he may try the marathon. Let's see how he fares. Olympic marathons usually have not been known to be fast affairs, so if he can keep in touch ...

He is taking part in next year's WC. If he wins two golds he would be far away from everyone else I believe. Any idea which endurance runner has won most golds in WC?

Side note: Overall Bolt should lead this too, he hardly lost a race.

 

[Sentinel]

You say that championship race is about winning and tactics and that's the whole thing I have been posting here. If race is tactical and not raw speed how does it matter if an athlete's PR is WR or not? We really have to see long distance running different from short distance. But @Sysyphus has a better perspective on this: If Mo could have held the WRs, he would be going for it and he couldn't.

I don't know how things are today, but back in the day WR's were a big deal. I started running in around 1979. Back then every now and then our newspaper (in India) would post a world record in the middle to long distances. I remember Rono's 13:08, then 13:06. Then David Moorcroft ran the first 13:00 5k, that was huge. In the meantime, Coe and Ovett were taking turns breaking the 800m and 1500m.
We were waiting for the first sub 13:00 5k, and the first sub 3:30 1500m, and even the first sub 1:40 800m. Yes, Coe had in an interview promised he would stop nibbling at the WR's and would make substantial cuts. I can't recall, but either he or a chap named Joaquim Cruz talking of doing 1:38/1:39 for the 2 laps !! That never happened

In the meantime, the 1980 OG was marred by the boycott, and 1984 had a reverse boycott. Not to knock on the 1980 games, I do sort of remember the buzz around the Coe-Ovett races.

Anyway, if you read Seb Coe's (auto)biography, Running Free (a very popular book at that time), he goes into a lot of details of both all the championship races he ran, and the various WR's. It was an exciting read, and you'll see how exciting WR's just are. To run faster than anyone else has, over a distance.

 

[764dak]

Farah can't even win a marathon.

 

[kandamrgam]

Agree with you there, although I know it is subjective when you use different criteria.


I've been hearing this all my life and I don't understand why WR's are not given importance. If you are a competitive runner then you do understand that on any given day all the runners and not at their best and many are not even there.

In any given Olympics (or any championship) several of the top runners could be injured, or returning from illness injury, maybe some did not peak at the right time, or some did not peak for their countries trials and failed to qualify etc etc.

However, a person's PR is his best time at the time when he was at his best. He always has a chance to repeat it, if he is not well on that day. He has many many chances to improve his PR. And the WR is the best PR of all the runners. So a WR may not have the glamour of a championship medal but not giving it importance.

Do you know it is like to be running under 61 seconds for 12 laps !! Have you seen Bekele run at that pace ?

I know this is personal but I find this habit of Mo's of running at the back of the pack, or coming in front and slowing down the pace, and finally making it a 200m race to be a travesty. Even the women's races have been faster than the men's. I know that a championship race is about winning, and about tactics ... I suppose Mo is plain lucky that there is no one there to keep up a stiff pace and run his legs off. Since the last OG, everyone has played right into his hands by running 72 or 75 second laps.

Note that I'm not claiming that the major point in a championship race isn't to finish first. It is. That's the same with 100m in principle. Doesn't matter much that Bolt won gold in "only" 9.81 in Rio. He won after all. But it also matters for his legacy that he proved he could push the world record stunningly far beyond where it had been, and set it at a level no one has come close to.

And ditto it's a point that gets considered with long-distance runners what times they are capable of at their best. That's a prime part of what gets compared when we look between "eras" and so on. Not just the time in itself, but also how much they moved the sport forward. Gebrselassie moved long-distance to another level with the pace he brought. Bekele slightly topped him in turn, but that is sometimes used as a point in Haile's favor: he moved the sport a lot singlehandedly, whereas Kenenisa in some ways stood on the shoulders of giants, or so some will argue. Mo OTOH has not brought the pace further forward, but is obviously (as Senti said) feasting a bit on the fact that no one is bringing that kind of steady pace anymore. So I'm basically in agreement with Senti's poast, I think. I too think it's a bit of a travesty that so many of the championship races of late have been rather slow and that the field is playing into Farah's hands. But mad respect to him for being the unique finisher that he is.

But yea, if Farah genuinely had pace to come close to the record, he'd at least go for it outside of a championship. His team has the resources to arrange that, but he doesn't have that kind of pace.

Not to beat a dead horse but going by this logic do you think someone like Carmelita Jeter (fastest woman since Flo-Jo) is greater or have left a greater legacy than someone like Shelly-Ann Fraser? It should be all the more relevant in 100 meters right? Not that I have a problem with someone saying Jeter is greater (there isn't a big difference in achievements between Bekele and Farah anyway) but it would sound odd to most and I think words have to be chosen better. In fact I have heard of Fraser being called the greatest sprinter ever and never Jeter. Safe to use the most used usage here on this board: Fraser is greater but Jeter is better? Or may be, Jeter is greater but Fraser is more accomplished?

 

[Sysyphus]

Not to beat a dead horse but going by this logic do you think someone like Carmelita Jeter (fastest woman since Flo-Jo) is greater or have left a greater legacy than someone like Shelly-Ann Fraser? It should be all the more relevant in 100 meters right? Not that I have a problem with someone saying Jeter is greater (there isn't a big difference in achievements between Bekele and Farah anyway) but it would sound odd to most and I think words have to be chosen better. In fact I have heard of Fraser being called the greatest sprinter ever and never Jeter. Safe to use the most used usage here on this board: Fraser is greater but Jeter is better? Or may be, Jeter is greater but Fraser is more accomplished?

Yo.

1. Jeter never set a world record in the 100s

2. When adjusted for wind, Fraser's de facto fastest run is faster than Jeter's official PB (and their de facto fastest runs equal from what I can gather).

3. Number of runs under 10.8
Fraser: 11
Jeter: 5
Compare this to the comparisons of number of strong times between Bekele, Farah, Haile earlier in the thread.

Safe to say, I don't think it's a fair analogy with Farah, Bekele, Haile etc, and it is not clear that Jeter can be said to be clearly better in terms of performance than Fraser the same way that Bekele can be said to be a superior performer to Farah. It's not clear with Fraser that she has benefitted massively from not competing against certain competitors the same way it is with Farah.

 

[Sentinel]

Not to beat a dead horse but going by this logic do you think someone like Carmelita Jeter (fastest woman since Flo-Jo) is greater or have left a greater legacy than someone like Shelly-Ann Fraser? It should be all the more relevant in 100 meters right? Not that I have a problem with someone saying Jeter is greater (there isn't a big difference in achievements between Bekele and Farah anyway) but it would sound odd to most and I think words have to be chosen better. In fact I have heard of Fraser being called the greatest sprinter ever and never Jeter. Safe to use the most used usage here on this board: Fraser is greater but Jeter is better? Or may be, Jeter is greater but Fraser is more accomplished?

Specific examples can be misleading. There are plenty of WR holders who did nothing other than just break a record. Take Dave Moorcroft for example, who ran the first 13:00 5000K, or that Portuguese runner who had the 10k WR but could never run in a championship race.
I am not arguing about what is better or greater. Since some people were dissing WR's, I just wanted to put my opinion in there.

I can't say much about Jeter and Fraser. I frankly stopped following athletics closely somewhere in the 90's for various reasons, including the number of athletes who were failing drug tests. I have no idea who is clean today. In 2008, I was looking at letsrun.com and people were accusing Jeter of doping. They were saying she was "slow as molasses" in college and suddenly at 30 or so, she becomes fast. As far as Flo-Jo was concerned, I always thought she doped (no proof though) and she cleverly quit quickly (unlike Ben Jonson who hung around till they caught him).

letsrun.com was also talking in 2008 about the Kenyans doping. Recently, there were reports that Kenya would also have to prove that they were taking strong action against dopers.

 

[Sysyphus]

Specific examples can be misleading. There are plenty of WR holders who did nothing other than just break a record. Take Dave Moorcroft for example, who ran the first 13:00 5000K, or that Portuguese runner who had the 10k WR but could never run in a championship race.
I am not arguing about what is better or greater. Since some people were dissing WR's, I just wanted to put my opinion in there.

I can't say much about Jeter and Fraser. I frankly stopped following athletics closely somewhere in the 90's for various reasons, including the number of athletes who were failing drug tests. I have no idea who is clean today. In 2008, I was looking at letsrun.com and people were accusing Jeter of doping. They were saying she was "slow as molasses" in college and suddenly at 30 or so, she becomes fast. As far as Flo-Jo was concerned, I always thought she doped (no proof though) and she cleverly quit quickly (unlike Ben Jonson who hung around till they caught him).

letsrun.com was also talking in 2008 about the Kenyans doping. Recently, there were reports that Kenya would also have to prove that they were taking strong action against dopers.

For sure, she was never caught, but she was extremely suspect indeed. Inhuman improvement at age 28, smashes world records with marks that will never be broken and no one has gotten even close to since, retires right away at her very peak after the 1988 Seoul olympics which is where Johnson was caught and they announced they would start doing random out-of-competition testing. Shady stuff indeed.

I remember you pointed me to the stories about Ma Junren's crew which I didn't know much about. Extremely fascinating stuff with those Chinese nationals where all the women set some absolutely ridonkulous times across the whole board, and no one knows what on earth went down. Then several of the athletes just falling off the map completely etc. Sad stuff.

No wonder many are calling for women's records to just be erased so we can start with a blank slate. Sooo many of their records are from the 80s or early 90s, often from known doping regimes, and the records are completely unbreakable. The hardcore hormonal doping that went down in the 80s had a much greater effect on the women, which is why the old records are so much more ridiculous there. Present day female athletes end up looking like mugs comparatively, and cannot get a chance at the glory and sponsor-deals associated with chasing a world record etc.

 

[BGod]

Paavo Nurmi. Guy ran the 1,500 and 5,000 in the same day.

 

[kandamrgam]

Specific examples can be misleading. There are plenty of WR holders who did nothing other than just break a record. Take Dave Moorcroft for example, who ran the first 13:00 5000K, or that Portuguese runner who had the 10k WR but could never run in a championship race.
I am not arguing about what is better or greater. Since some people were dissing WR's, I just wanted to put my opinion in there.

I can't say much about Jeter and Fraser. I frankly stopped following athletics closely somewhere in the 90's for various reasons, including the number of athletes who were failing drug tests. I have no idea who is clean today. In 2008, I was looking at letsrun.com and people were accusing Jeter of doping. They were saying she was "slow as molasses" in college and suddenly at 30 or so, she becomes fast. As far as Flo-Jo was concerned, I always thought she doped (no proof though) and she cleverly quit quickly (unlike Ben Jonson who hung around till they caught him).

letsrun.com was also talking in 2008 about the Kenyans doping. Recently, there were reports that Kenya would also have to prove that they were taking strong action against dopers.

I wasn't dissing WR either, but stating it doesnt matter as much as wins in long distance.

 

[kandamrgam]

Yo.

1. Jeter never set a world record in the 100s

2. When adjusted for wind, Fraser's de facto fastest run is faster than Jeter's official PB (and their de facto fastest runs equal from what I can gather).

3. Number of runs under 10.8
Fraser: 11
Jeter: 5
Compare this to the comparisons of number of strong times between Bekele, Farah, Haile earlier in the thread.

Safe to say, I don't think it's a fair analogy with Farah, Bekele, Haile etc, and it is not clear that Jeter can be said to be clearly better in terms of performance than Fraser the same way that Bekele can be said to be a superior performer to Farah. It's not clear with Fraser that she has benefitted massively from not competing against certain competitors the same way it is with Farah.

1. WR or not, the basic point still stands, Jeter was faster than Fraser ever was. WR matters if the question is who is the greatest. If my question is who is greater between Fraser/Jeter then we only need to look at their PBs. In fact Jeter could be pretty much considered to be holding the WR given the shady practices around 80's. In any case Jeter's case was only an example.

2. I dont think that's the case. http://www.alltime-athletics.com/w_100ok.htm

3. Not to nitpick, but I see that you also value being consistently good. From our previous discussions I got the feeling showing the ability to record the fastest time was the deciding factor. When considering consistency it is a lot subjective. Jeter has 3 fastest times inside top 10 I believe. When you stick to titles or fastest time we have a more believable answer (not that it is important).

I am just playing devil's advocate now.

 

[Deleted member 688153]

Wait, this Farah guy has several Olympic Golds and some are questioning his greatness?
Come off it now... :lol:

What's the huge deal about having a WR in distance events anyway? I mean in the 100m, sure, but you're supposed to pace yourself somewhat in these - they're not Usain Bolt-ing for 10km out there.

 

[Sentinel]

I remember you pointed me to the stories about Ma Junren's crew which I didn't know much about. Extremely fascinating stuff with those Chinese nationals where all the women set some absolutely ridonkulous times across the whole board, and no one knows what on earth went down. Then several of the athletes just falling off the map completely etc. Sad stuff.

I remember how they tried to "cover" it up with stories that their secret was "turtle fungus" ! The papers said that every morning these girls were made to take a live turtle and smash its head against a rock and drink its blood and this made them tough. These stories immediately raised a red flag in my mind.

You must have read recently about one of those athletes who came out to the Chinese press about how she was forced to dope and the ill effects. And how she had been trying to come out long back but was being suppressed.

 

[Sentinel]

What's the huge deal about having a WR in distance events anyway?

What kind of a question is that ? Do you think the longer distances are just a jog ? Do you realize the pace at which many fast marathons are run. Do you realize that a 12:37 5000m is almost 60 seconds per lap for 12.5 laps.

The last 10K of a fast marathon would be a 10K national record in many many countries. These guys may look like they are jogging but most of the 10K's are going in 30 minutes or under, most of the 5k's are going in 15 minutes or less.

 

[kandamrgam]

Wait, this Farah guy has several Olympic Golds and some are questioning his greatness?
Come off it now... [emoji38]

What's the huge deal about having a WR in distance events anyway? I mean in the 100m, sure, but you're supposed to pace yourself somewhat in these - they're not Usain Bolt-ing for 10km out there.

Lots of interesting points on it. Read the past posts in this thread. Btw, nobody is questioning his greatness but if he is truly the goat. If he does double in next year's WC then he will be most accomplished ever.

 

[kandamrgam]

What kind of a question is that ? Do you think the longer distances are just a jog ? Do you realize the pace at which many fast marathons are run. Do you realize that a 12:37 5000m is almost 60 seconds per lap for 12.5 laps.

The last 10K of a fast marathon would be a 10K national record in many many countries. These guys may look like they are jogging but most of the 10K's are going in 30 minutes or under, most of the 5k's are going in 15 minutes or less.

His comment no way indicates long distance is jogging or anything you have said.

 

[Sentinel]

His comment no way indicates long distance is jogging or anything you have said.

What does his comment indicate ?

Sorry for misunderstanding.

Edit: He further states that in distance races you have to pace yourself. I am not a sprinter, but I do know that even sprinters pace themselves. We do see cases of sprinters who "die out" or "tie up" in the last fifty meters of a 100m sprint.

 

[Deleted member 688153]

I would simply place less emphasis on things like world records, and more on achievements. It's weighted more towards winning on the day vs. your time in the longer distances, from what I've seen.

 

[Sentinel]

I would simply place less emphasis on things like world records, and more on achievements. It's weighted more towards winning on the day vs. your time in the longer distances, from what I've seen.

That's fine, bro.
Not to nitpick, though, but when you said "achievements" surely you actually meant championships. Because a world record is also an achievement.

I have no issue with either, I respect both and both have their place. But I still might add (thinking aloud here) that these are two different races. A championship race is a tactical race against a certain field, and a PR or WR is a race against the best you've ever done before.

I've often seen championships in which someone is trying to go higher, or lift heavier etc to break the WR. I found that very exciting, although the motivation to do so was reduced once the person was assured of a gold medal.

I guess it's just me. Fast times excite me. As a runner long back, I planned my years with timings in mind, not positions at various levels.

 

[Sysyphus]

Wait, this Farah guy has several Olympic Golds and some are questioning his greatness?
Come off it now... :lol:

What's the huge deal about having a WR in distance events anyway? I mean in the 100m, sure, but you're supposed to pace yourself somewhat in these - they're not Usain Bolt-ing for 10km out there.

The first paragraph, no one at all is saying anything remotely close to that. Did you read what you're commenting on?

The second paragraph: I don't know, maybe all the esteem of your peers, of fans, the huge bonuses you get from setting a world record, sponsorship perks, the publicity associated with it, and the mere fact of proving your absolute level of performance in a way that transcends the contingencies associated with a single race and which will stand to compare across the boundaries of time. For most who follow athletics, it isn't much of a question at all. Of course it isn't the only thing that matters, but most who take the sports seriously agree that it matters quite a bit. The absolute standard of performance is one of the thing that makes athletics so beautiful and pure.

 

[Deleted member 688153]

That's fine, bro.
Not to nitpick, though, but when you said "achievements" surely you actually meant championships. Because a world record is also an achievement.

I have no issue with either, I respect both and both have their place. But I still might add (thinking aloud here) that these are two different races. A championship race is a tactical race against a certain field, and a PR or WR is a race against the best you've ever done before.

I've often seen championships in which someone is trying to go higher, or lift heavier etc to break the WR. I found that very exciting, although the motivation to do so was reduced once the person was assured of a gold medal.

I guess it's just me. Fast times excite me. As a runner long back, I planned my years with timings in mind, not positions at various levels.

Thanks for the correction. I did indeed mean championships.

For me, the championships are where it's at in any sporting endeavour.
I will say that holding/setting the world record in something during one's career would be pretty awesome too, though.