GOAT: Either Nadal or Borg!

C

corners

Legend
Federer's claim on goathood is illegitimate: his 13-7 record against Nadal, his chief rival, clearly disqualifies him. This is self-evident, beyond argument! Nothing Federer can do - calendar Grand Slam, more French Opens, breaking the 24 slam all-time multi-gender slam record - will clear Federer's record of this blemish unless he can finish his career with a winning record against Nadal.

So who then is the real GOAT? Sampras, Laver and Borg all come to mind, the trio that observed the pretender break the all-time MEN's GS record at Wimbledon this year. But who's better among them?

To begin to answer that question we must attempt to use the criteria that disqualifies Federer: head-to-head vs. Nadal. The only fair way to compare is to imagine these matchups on the surfaces Fed has had to face the Mallorcan freak of nature:

11 matches on clay (9-2 Nadal)
6 matches on hardcourt (3-3 tied)
3 matches on grass (2-1 Federer)

The first two, unfortunately for their legacies, are easy. My projections for Sampras and Laver in their primes vs. Nadal in his prime:

Sampras vs. Nadal:

Clay: 11-0 Nadal
Hard: 3-3 tied
Grass: 3-0 Sampras
Total: 14-6 Nadal

Laver vs. Nadal:

Clay: 11-0 Nadal
Hard: 4-2 Nadal
Grass: 2-1 Laver
Total: 16-4 Nadal

Now the hard one:

Borg vs. Nadal:

Clay: 6-5 Nadal (I just think the Borg's forehand, even if he had used an APDC all his life, wouldn't/couldn't be as 'ridiculous' (as Murray put it) as Rafa's.
Hard: 4-2 Nadal
Grass: 2-1 Borg (5 consecutive Wimbledons! - you gotta give Borg the edge)
Total: 11-9 Nadal

So either Borg or Nadal are the GOAT. From their head to head you'd have to pick Rafa, but Head to Head's aren't everything and Borg has the superior record, by far at this point, so we should really wait until Rafa has had time to catch him in total grand slams or something before we declare him the GOAT. Until then Borg is clearly the provisional GOAT on the strength of his record, and especially his Head to Head versus Rafa.
 
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Federer's claim on goathood is illegitimate: his 13-7 record against Nadal, his chief rival, clearly disqualifies him. This is self-evident, beyond argument! Nothing Federer can do - calendar Grand Slam, more French Opens, breaking the 24 slam all-time multi-gender slam record - will clear Federer's record of this blemish unless he can finish his career with a winning record against Nadal.
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I dont want to read any further,.....this thread is a joke.......LOLOOOOOOLLLOOOOOLLOOOOOOOOOLLL:) Why post a thread if you wont listen to any arguement....
 
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Ok, Nadal is the GOAT. Now get ready for the legions of Sampras, Laver, Federer, and Goran fans to attack you (Yes, even Goran's fans will attack since this is an absurd notion).
 
So the greatest of all time only has 6 slams (no career slam) and not even a full year at #1?

Interesting criteria.
 
obviously somebody wants to convince everyone else just as they have convinced themselves already who they believe to be GOAT.......even if their arguments are almost all based on fantasy and predictions.....
 
LMFAO!!!

First of all why are all the clay things like 20 matches more then the others? Second of all are we comparing primes? In that case Fed, Borg and Laver are definitely more than 2-1 favorites over Nadal. Fed in my opinion played better grass court tennis in 2003-2005 then he did now. Laver only a 2-1 favorite on grass against Nadal and Borg is only 2 to 1 as well, when both actually could hit volleys without looking awkward at the net.

So basically you are saying Fed can win 30 slams and if he does not have a winning record against Nadal he will not be GOAT. (I think doing 1 will be impossible without doing 2 unless Nadal never comes back from his knee injury.) So this whole GOAT theory is based on hypothetical match ups from your twisted world.

Also how the hell do you have Sampras and Nadal tied on HARDCOURTS?!?!?! SAMPRAS WHO HAS 8 HARDCOURT SLAMS!!! Dammit where the hell are you drawing these odds from? Second of all don't you think it is unfair your crazy match ups have them playing 11 MATCHES ON CLAY but only 3 on grass. Frankly if Fed can grab winning records on Nadal on two surfaces I will be glad to overlook the 9-2 on clay for one reason. He could at least beat him on two of the three surfaces or at least get a winning record in slam finals against him. Head to head is nice but there are huge factors to it. Number 1 is in your crazy scenarios you have them playing 11 matches on clay but only 3 on grass and 6 on hardcourts? Is this because this is how the Fed v Nadla rivalry has panned out. All you have proved is Nadal is amazing on clay and the other guys (exclusion of Borg) were not and that in your warped world you think Nadal could keep a tied head to head Pete Sampras 5 Time US Open winner on one of his best surfaces. Hard courts. Get real. Nadla has yet to sniff a US Open final at 23 and Pete all ready had 2 titles by this point and a final to boot.
 
If only ****** had never been injured he would have 2 US Open titles already.... Roger only wins slams because of knee-capped ******.
 
This entire argument bothers me so much. I see it over and over and over.

"Being able to consistently beat a GOAT contender on his worst surface" is not the only criteria for being called the GOAT - but it's Nadal's only qualification for GOAT.
 
corners said:
The first two, unfortunately for their legacies, are easy. My projects for Sampras and Laver in their primes vs. Nadal in his prime:

Sampras vs. Nadal:

Clay: 11-0 Nadal
Hard: 3-3 tied
Grass: 3-0 Sampras
Total: 14-6 Nadal
Click to expand...

I'm a huge Rafa fan but c'mon man...3-3 against Pete on HC? That's ridiculous. Have you actually seen pete play on HC? On a fast HC, 10 matches..I would say, prime Pete would at least win 7. Sampas is not Federer whom Rafa can bully around the court, he will run to the net at the very first oppurtunity. On a slow HC, still slight edge to Pete, or even score.

11-0 on clay? Possible, but I would give Pete 1 or 2 wins. Prime Pete would destroy the Rafa that showed up at the FO this year. If a nobody like Söderling could do it, Sampras certainly is even more capable.

This is my own speculation of course.
 
FedFan_2009 said:
If only ****** had never been injured he would have 2 US Open titles already.... Roger only wins slams because of knee-capped ******.
Click to expand...


nice of you to acknowledge that ********'s only real adversary is a crippled guy :)

Rafa is an amazing player to have won 6 slams on bad knees.
 
So if Federer was crappy on clay, say like ummmm, Sampras, and he lost in every first round clay tournament, then the 13-7 record would be come 4-5. Would that legitimize Federer more for GOAT? You imbecile.
 
This.

Federer's claim on goathood is illegitimate: his 13-7 record against Nadal, his chief rival, clearly disqualifies him.
Click to expand...

But then this?

From their head to head you'd have to pick Rafa, but Head to Head's aren't everything and Borg has the superior record, by far at this point
Click to expand...

Until then Borg is clearly the provisional GOAT on the strength of his record, and especially his Head to Head versus Rafa.
Click to expand...

Que?

If you're going to troll, do it right, hombre.

I'm giving this thread five stars because I can.
 
corners said:
So either Borg or Nadal are the GOAT. From their head to head you'd have to pick Rafa, but Head to Head's aren't everything and Borg has the superior record, by far at this point, so we should really wait until Rafa has had time to catch him in total grand slams or something before we declare him the GOAT. Until then Borg is clearly the provisional GOAT on the strength of his record, and especially his Head to Head versus Rafa.
Click to expand...

how can someone have a head to head with someone he has never played?
FTW?
 
johnmcenroe.jpg


another joke thread.
 
It's okay guys, Nadal is GOAT.

It takes the pressure off of Federer, and guess what, the Nadal Bashing begins!
 
corners said:
Federer's claim on goathood is illegitimate: his 13-7 record against Nadal, his chief rival, clearly disqualifies him. This is self-evident, beyond argument! Nothing Federer can do - calendar Grand Slam, more French Opens, breaking the 24 slam all-time multi-gender slam record - will clear Federer's record of this blemish unless he can finish his career with a winning record against Nadal.

So who then is the real GOAT? Sampras, Laver and Borg all come to mind, the trio that observed the pretender break the all-time MEN's GS record at Wimbledon this year. But who's better among them?

To begin to answer that question we must attempt to use the criteria that disqualifies Federer: head-to-head vs. Nadal. The only fair way to compare is to imagine these matchups on the surfaces Fed has had to face the Mallorcan freak of nature:

11 matches on clay (9-2 Nadal)
6 matches on hardcourt (3-3 tied)
3 matches on grass (2-1 Federer)

The first two, unfortunately for their legacies, are easy. My projects for Sampras and Laver in their primes vs. Nadal in his prime:

Sampras vs. Nadal:

Clay: 11-0 Nadal
Hard: 3-3 tied
Grass: 3-0 Sampras
Total: 14-6 Nadal

Laver vs. Nadal:

Clay: 11-0 Nadal
Hard: 4-2 Nadal
Grass: 2-1 Laver
Total: 16-4 Nadal

Now the hard one:

Borg vs. Nadal:

Clay: 6-5 Nadal (I just think the Borg's forehand, even if he had used an APDC all his life, wouldn't/couldn't be as 'ridiculous' (as Murray put it) as Rafa's.
Hard: 4-2 Nadal
Grass: 2-1 Borg (5 consecutive Wimbledon's! - you gotta give Borg the edge)
Total: 11-9 Nadal

So either Borg or Nadal are the GOAT. From their head to head you'd have to pick Rafa, but Head to Head's aren't everything and Borg has the superior record, by far at this point, so we should really wait until Rafa has had time to catch him in total grand slams or something before we declare him the GOAT. Until then Borg is clearly the provisional GOAT on the strength of his record, and especially his Head to Head versus Rafa.
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LOL....very cleaverly done OP!! borg it is
 
It's funny. If Federer wasn't worth crap on clay, he'd be a 14 slam winner, and would probably have a winning record against Nadal, and would already be anointed "GOAT" by some people. But because he is very, very good on clay, good enough to meet Nadal in CC finals (Nadal of course doesn't usually return the favor on HC), but not historically great, then according to Nadal/Sampras fans he ultimately falls short because he has a losing record against Nadal. Think about that.

Arguing with certain people on here is like eating Jell-o with chopsticks.



And just personally, I don't regard Fed as GOAT, although he's up there. Borg I'd say is also definitely a candidate, but Nadal, uh, no. Not yet at least.
 
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corners said:
Federer's claim on goathood is illegitimate: his 13-7 record against Nadal, his chief rival, clearly disqualifies him. This is self-evident, beyond argument! Nothing Federer can do - calendar Grand Slam, more French Opens, breaking the 24 slam all-time multi-gender slam record - will clear Federer's record of this blemish unless he can finish his career with a winning record against Nadal.

So who then is the real GOAT? Sampras, Laver and Borg all come to mind, the trio that observed the pretender break the all-time MEN's GS record at Wimbledon this year. But who's better among them?

To begin to answer that question we must attempt to use the criteria that disqualifies Federer: head-to-head vs. Nadal. The only fair way to compare is to imagine these matchups on the surfaces Fed has had to face the Mallorcan freak of nature:

11 matches on clay (9-2 Nadal)
6 matches on hardcourt (3-3 tied)
3 matches on grass (2-1 Federer)

The first two, unfortunately for their legacies, are easy. My projects for Sampras and Laver in their primes vs. Nadal in his prime:

Sampras vs. Nadal:

Clay: 11-0 Nadal
Hard: 3-3 tied
Grass: 3-0 Sampras
Total: 14-6 Nadal

Laver vs. Nadal:

Clay: 11-0 Nadal
Hard: 4-2 Nadal
Grass: 2-1 Laver
Total: 16-4 Nadal

Now the hard one:

Borg vs. Nadal:

Clay: 6-5 Nadal (I just think the Borg's forehand, even if he had used an APDC all his life, wouldn't/couldn't be as 'ridiculous' (as Murray put it) as Rafa's.
Hard: 4-2 Nadal
Grass: 2-1 Borg (5 consecutive Wimbledon's! - you gotta give Borg the edge)
Total: 11-9 Nadal

So either Borg or Nadal are the GOAT. From their head to head you'd have to pick Rafa, but Head to Head's aren't everything and Borg has the superior record, by far at this point, so we should really wait until Rafa has had time to catch him in total grand slams or something before we declare him the GOAT. Until then Borg is clearly the provisional GOAT on the strength of his record, and especially his Head to Head versus Rafa.
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You're argument is flawed because it's not logical at all.
 
Mansewerz said:
Ok, Nadal is the GOAT. Now get ready for the legions of Sampras, Laver, Federer, and Goran fans to attack you (Yes, even Goran's fans will attack since this is an absurd notion).
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now Mans: for all we know he should even be attacked by Vince Spadea Fans.. (if he has any)!
 
Worst thread ever.

Borg cannot be the GOAT - his lack of 15 slams disqualify him.
Nadal cannot be the GOAT - his lack of a career slam disqualifies him.
Sampras cannot be the GOAT - his lack of a career slam disqualifies him.

And if Fed was poor on clay like Sampras, his H2H with Nadal would be a lot better. Which shows how ridiculous your argument is. You're punishing Federer for being better on clay than Sampras.

See... what I just said is stupid, but that's basically what you did.
 
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Rippy said:
And if Fed was poor on clay like Sampras, his H2H with Nadal would be a lot better. Which shows how ridiculous your argument is. You're punishing Federer for being better on clay than Sampras.

See... what I just said is stupid, but that's basically what you did.
Click to expand...

But then he wouldn't have won the French Open and Sampras would be better than him or equal (assuming Fed would still win this year's Wimby anyways).

You either claim Fed is GOAT for winning the French + 14 slams and accept that he has a losing H2H in slams, master's, and what have you to Nadal

or you find some new metric to judge Federer's GOATness by.

Can't have your cake, and eat it too!
 
Blinkism said:
But then he wouldn't have won the French Open and Sampras would be better than him or equal (assuming Fed would still win this year's Wimby anyways).

You either claim Fed is GOAT for winning the French + 14 slams and accept that he has a losing H2H in slams, master's, and what have you to Nadal

or you find some new metric to judge Federer's GOATness by.

Can't have your cake, and eat it too!
Click to expand...

Well he could have lost in the first round of all clay tournaments except this year's French Open. :p
 
corners said:
Federer's claim on goathood is illegitimate: his 13-7 record against Nadal, his chief rival, clearly disqualifies him. This is self-evident, beyond argument! Nothing Federer can do - calendar Grand Slam, more French Opens, breaking the 24 slam all-time multi-gender slam record - will clear Federer's record of this blemish unless he can finish his career with a winning record against Nadal.

So who then is the real GOAT? Sampras, Laver and Borg all come to mind, the trio that observed the pretender break the all-time MEN's GS record at Wimbledon this year. But who's better among them?

To begin to answer that question we must attempt to use the criteria that disqualifies Federer: head-to-head vs. Nadal. The only fair way to compare is to imagine these matchups on the surfaces Fed has had to face the Mallorcan freak of nature:

11 matches on clay (9-2 Nadal)
6 matches on hardcourt (3-3 tied)
3 matches on grass (2-1 Federer)

The first two, unfortunately for their legacies, are easy. My projects for Sampras and Laver in their primes vs. Nadal in his prime:

Sampras vs. Nadal:

Clay: 11-0 Nadal
Hard: 3-3 tied
Grass: 3-0 Sampras
Total: 14-6 Nadal

Laver vs. Nadal:

Clay: 11-0 Nadal
Hard: 4-2 Nadal
Grass: 2-1 Laver
Total: 16-4 Nadal

Now the hard one:

Borg vs. Nadal:

Clay: 6-5 Nadal (I just think the Borg's forehand, even if he had used an APDC all his life, wouldn't/couldn't be as 'ridiculous' (as Murray put it) as Rafa's.
Hard: 4-2 Nadal
Grass: 2-1 Borg (5 consecutive Wimbledon's! - you gotta give Borg the edge)
Total: 11-9 Nadal

So either Borg or Nadal are the GOAT. From their head to head you'd have to pick Rafa, but Head to Head's aren't everything and Borg has the superior record, by far at this point, so we should really wait until Rafa has had time to catch him in total grand slams or something before we declare him the GOAT. Until then Borg is clearly the provisional GOAT on the strength of his record, and especially his Head to Head versus Rafa.
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As much as i love Borg (fellow countryman) i have to say that this is BS...Borg to me is the 4th best player of all times, Nadal is not even top 10 yet...he might get there if he gets his knees ready.
 
Really?

corners said:
Federer's claim on goathood is illegitimate: his 13-7 record against Nadal, his chief rival, clearly disqualifies him. This is self-evident, beyond argument! Nothing Federer can do - calendar Grand Slam, more French Opens, breaking the 24 slam all-time multi-gender slam record - will clear Federer's record of this blemish unless he can finish his career with a winning record against Nadal.
Click to expand...

FACT: Even Federer fans would completely agree with you that Nadal is a better Clay Court player than Federer. In fact even Federer himself would agree with you that Nadal is a better clay court player than himself. Now we have put that aside, what does it leave. Federer 5-4 over Nadal on all other surfaces. Hence, in non-clay play Federer is ahead. Hence, the head to head is completely skewed because the majority of matches they have played on are clay. Clay by the way is Nadal's best surface and Federer's worst. I think Federer has done well beating Nadal twice on Nadal's strongest surface. Nadal after all is one of the two greatest clay courters of all time (with Borg).

Hence, the head-to-head is highly deceptive. What really has happened, is that because Federer has been the number 2 Clay Court player since 2005, he keeps getting to finals where he meets the Number 1 Clay Courter - Nadal. To put this argument on its end - the Problem is that Nadal can't get to enough Hard Court finals. He has never even reached one US Open final, whereas Federer has won 5.

Head to head's can be misleading without analysing what they really are about. What the Federer/Nadal head to head says is that Nadal is the better clay court player and Federer is the slightly better player on all other surfaces. Which isn't too bad really considering that Nadal is one of the Top 2 Clay Court players of all time and Clay is Federer's worst surface.
 
And what are you going to say if Nadal beats Federer at the US Open?

Federer's out of his prime? The US Open slowed down?

There's no winning for Nadal, is there? He's beaten Fed at 3 French Open finals, a Wimbledon final, and the Australian Open final, and yet it's all meaningless.

Makes sense if you're a fanboy
 
Blinkism said:
And what are you going to say if Nadal beats Federer at the US Open?

Federer's out of his prime? The US Open slowed down?

There's no winning for Nadal, is there? He's beaten Fed at 3 French Open finals, a Wimbledon final, and the Australian Open final, and yet it's all meaningless.

Makes sense if you're a fanboy
Click to expand...

Federer IS out of his prime.

How is it meaningless? I would say most people acknowledge Nadal as being, with Borg, one of the best, if not the best, claycourter ever. You don't think his French Open victories had something to do with that?
 
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Rippy said:
Federer IS out of his prime.

How is it meaningless? I would say most people acknowledge Nadal as being, with Borg, one of the best, if not the best, claycourter ever. You don't think his French Open victories had something to do with that?
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Right, the #1 in the world Australian Open finalist, French Open Champion, Wimbledon Champion and defending US Open Champion is not in his prime.

What an "off year" for Federer.

Please. This "out of his prime" thing is so convenient to use.

Consider every match between Nadal and Federer from now on as Nadal being "out of his prime", also. This knee injury sure put him out of his prime.

Two out of their prime players. Level playing field, once again.

No excuses.
 
Blinkism said:
Right, the #1 in the world Australian Open finalist, French Open Champion, Madrid Champion, Wimbledon Champion and defending US Open Champion is not in his prime.
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Correct. He's still winning things, as you point out, but he's simply not as good as he once was.

Also, Nadal being injured doesn't automatically mean he's out of his prime. And it's hardly a "level playing field" - things are not so clear cut. Nadal may end up being more out of his prime than Federer, or less so.
 
Blinkism said:
And what are you going to say if Nadal beats Federer at the US Open?

Federer's out of his prime? The US Open slowed down?

There's no winning for Nadal, is there? He's beaten Fed at 3 French Open finals, a Wimbledon final, and the Australian Open final, and yet it's all meaningless.

Makes sense if you're a fanboy
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No thats what nadal fans will be saying if federer beats nadal on top with the 'he got injured when he walked onto the court' type BS
 
All-rounder said:
No thats what nadal fans will be saying if federer beats nadal on top with the 'he got injured when he walked onto the court' type BS
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It's all ridiculous, is what I'm saying.

Do you think Federer goes out on the court thinking "Oh boy, I'm out of my prime. If Nadal beats me, that's not so bad. He'd never have beaten me at the US Open final between 2003-2007. LOLZ I'm teh GOAT LOL"

Ok, he'd never say that last part... but you know where I'm getting at:)
 
Which player has made it to the finals of his worse surface the most? Which player hasn't made it to one final on his worst surface?
 
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