GOAT Pop singer?

[SystemicAnomaly]

No love for Mariah Carey?

Aretha Franklin, Diana Ross... is that pop? Isn’t that soul music? I love soul as well...

Mariah Carey has a very impressive voice. But I've really only listened to a few things from her. Have not felt compelled to listen to much of her other stuff.

There's so much other music I've been more inclined to listen to: classic rock, prog rock, rock & roll, jazz, jazz fusion, baroque & classical, avante garde, folk, blues, bluegrass, progressive bluegrass (& dawg music), new acoustic, big band, country, world (global), ambient / new-age, progressive metal and, yes, even some pop.

Aretha & Diana... yeah, much of their stuff can be categorized as soul music. But their music also entails pop, R&B, dance, and even a bit of rock.

 

[Sysyphus]

 

[Vcore89]

@Dolgopolov85 @Vcore89 @Poisoned Slice


No need to convince me that MJ has more inherent musical and dancing talent than Britney. That wasn't my point.

Agree that Ariana Grande has an outstanding voice and is an incredible talent. Christina Aguilera is another singer who has amazing vocal skills. She had auditioned for MMC in the early 1990s alongside Britney Spears, Justin Timberlake & Jessica Simpson. Christina wowwed the other kids and pretty much blew the competition away. Jessica Simpson was so overwhelmed by having to follow Christina A, that she blew the final stages of her audition and never made it on to the MMC.

But, as talented as she is, Christina tends to show off and throw way too many vocal tricks into her music. Ariana Grande's performances, otoh, comes off more effortless. She shows greater restraint with performances rather than throwing every thing, including the kitchen sink, into it. If Christina A could include that same restraint in her music, her performances would be better for it.

However, as immensely talented as Ariana G is, I've got to wonder how much of her past & current music will stand the test of time. How much of it will ppl recall 30 or 40 years from now. I wonder the same thing about the music of Justin Timberlake. Also an outstanding voice and a great talent. But so much of his music does not seem be timeless or to have much staying power.

Even tho Ariana & Justin may be greater talents, more of Britney's music is iconic and will probably still be known in 40+ years.

Even Katy Perry, who seems to have somewhat even less vocal talent than Britney, has released some music that may endure longer than the music of Ariana, Justin T, Taylor Swift, Justin Beiber, or Janet Jackson.

The Beatles music is still well known more than 50 years after they released it. The music of MJ, Madonna, Cindy Lauper, Diana Ross, Whitney Houston, Shania Twain, Celine Dion, Aretha Franklin & others will undoubtedly stick around for a long time as well.

I'm a fan of Aguilera but totally agree with what you say about her dramatic vocal gymnastics, nonetheless, totally love her GROWL!

I see it as the rise and rise of JT, from boy band, going solo and a bona fide acting career, he's cumulatively occasioned himself into a great modern everyman for the contemporary masses. He's only at the halfway mark, there's more tricks up his sleeve, way more. Wardrobe Malfunction though essentially a Janet Jackson trick, remember?

How about Harry Styles outlasting Bieber?

 

[TheGhostOfAgassi]

Mariah Carey has a very impressive voice. But I've really only listened to a few things from her. Have not felt compelled to listen to much of her other stuff.

There's so much other music I've been more inclined to listen to: classic rock, prog rock, rock & roll, jazz, jazz fusion, baroque & classical, avante garde, folk, blues, bluegrass, progressive bluegrass (& dawg music), new acoustic, big band, country, world (global), ambient / new-age, progressive metal and, yes, even some pop.

Aretha & Diana... yeah, much of their stuff can be categorized as soul music. But their music also entails pop, R&B, dance, and even a bit of rock.

Mariah s Butterfly album is great!!
Along w Toni Braxton's Secrets. But both of these got a lot of rnb.

90s rnb is so catchy!

 

[r2473]

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

The true GOAT singer.

Besides Haas & Dimitrov, Fed has also performed with another single-handed backhand boy, Stan Wawrinka (along with other members of the Suisse Davis Cup team).

 

[chrischris]

Could be true .. if not for :

 

[Dolgopolov85]

As an illustration let's look at this fine analysis of Gaga's "Bad Romance" by Owen Pallett:

Explaining the Genius of Lady Gaga—Using Music Theory

Our mission: to dissect chart-topping pop singles and weigh their trembling flesh on the scales of Western music theory. Today I am typing about the un ...

www.slate.com

It's one of the few genuine theoretical breakdowns in pop music criticism and I enjoyed reading it shortly after it was published, but it's hard to imagine anyone becoming a Gaga convert upon learning about her use of a raised seventh which wouldn't be out of place in Tchaikovsky's celebrated dirges. As Pallett himself points out the tritone is one of the tried-and-true formulas in Western music and one could (as her dimmer detractors do) well hold that against her, but I doubt most uninitiated listeners would bother with such trivia when faced with the deliriousness extravagance of Gaga's masterpiece (presented here without the MV for more "objective" appreciation):

Now I'm not such a fan of the silly lyrics which probably is why "Alejandro" remains my fave Gaga song - I do think LG surpassed Madonna as a lyricist a long time ago but she's no Joni or Dolly quite yet - but as a pure pop single "Bad Romance" is up there with anything by anyone which has less to do with the particulars of its construction than with its brute power and exuberance plus, yes, the sheer magnetism of its star.

Speaking of who let's move on to Dolly's "Jolene," another classic of a female lover's angst and insecurity:

Again if you tried to explain the appeal of this perennial pleaser using music theory you'd most likely fall short as it's based on the same simple chord progression for both the verse and the chorus except for this extra B-D# in 2/4 in the latter, but the song somehow never feels monotonous or repetitive. And the audience has agreed as it's arguably Dolly's signature song. What does that say about Parton vs. any of the decent music majors who could surely beat her on those usual midterms and finals in their sleep?

Or what about the fact that Billie never had big pipes even in her prime or that none of the Beatles (including self-admittedly Paul to this day) could read music? You get the idea.

That was a very interesting analysis of Lady Gaga's work though it probably doesn't apply in quite the same way now that she has gone and done that jazz album. I liked Bad Romance almost from the first time I heard it because it reminded me somewhat of ABBA's Money Money Money.

But the article also raises questions about what causes music to gain popularity and why music criticism is so fickle.

I wonder if the author would accept a similar premise to explain the popularity of, um, a vast majority of thrash metal but notably Slayer, or that of Iron Maiden or AC DC. I am not asking here that he should be universally consistent which doesn't even happen in music. Just making a point about how music being so multi cultural, multi hued makes its appreciation a confounded business.

This seems to be less of a problem in cinema because it is easier to affix slots for cinema like thriller, action, horror, romance, comedy, drama. And the presence of a plot line and dialogues make it easier for the audience to relate movies to life and follow the development of a movie. In music, you can have a strong visceral reaction to the SOUND of it irrespective of whether you have the awareness to put the music in context in terms of what genre it belongs to and what the artist is trying to achieve.

 

[NLBwell]

Being a Pop Star is purely about overall ability to do it all. The complete package and presentation.

That's why the greatest Pop Star of all time is Sonny Bono.
The guy could not really sing, but he had the presentation, the personality, the packaging, and so the ability to make himself and Cher huge stars not just as recording artists, but TV stars.
No one got further with less talent through hard work and the knowledge of how to package the product.

I suggest you watch this clip if you want to know about TV in the 1970's. Half the people on TV in those days are in the opening scene. Lots of references to their divorce, too.

 

[Lleytonstation]

JT. Dirty pop was off the chain.

 

[FranzS]

Pop is not about having the greatest voice of all time. It’s catchy and easy.

Well, it depends if you're talking about the greatest singer or the greater artist. As for the latter, there's rarely such a thing in pop music, where it is usually all about a nice looking guy/chick with possibly a good voice who sings songs written and arranged by some other musicians hiding in the background. If you're searching for real artists in music look for other genres, not pop. At least as far as pure music. Other entertaining abilities (dancing, showing as much skin as you can on stage, etc.) are definitely more developed in pop music, that's for sure!

 

[Harry_Wild]

The Honky Tonk Man, with Jesse “The Body” Ventura on piano!

You go and tell THTM to his face that The Honky Tonk Man is not
GOAT! Dare you! The Honka Tonk Man has his guitar in his hand too! Ouch!

Jimmy Hart, The Mouth Of South is there too!
Bret Hart and Anvil Hart do a guest appearance too!

 

[chrischris]

Looking for freedom. .. a Classic . Best pop voice ever. Not.

 

[skaj]

Vocally, nobody beats her:

Not sure if it counts as pop.

 

[Fedinkum]

Prince of PoP.

 

[FranzS]

Vocally, nobody beats her:

Not sure if it counts as pop.

Yep! Prime Ann Wilson may come close (cheesy pop rock):

 

[skaj]

A candidate. Vocal perfection.

 

[gn]

For a moment, I thought you woke me up. Then you gave me a heavy dose.

 

[TheNachoMan]

Any answer other than Michael Jackson is wrong

 

[MichaelNadal]

Any answer other than Michael Jackson is wrong

Come through and slay

Please find vocals better than this while dancing lol. It literally cant happen.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Looking for freedom. .. a Classic . Best pop voice ever. Not.

I'll see your David Hasselhoff and raise you a Jennifer Love Hewitt. Actually, JLH does a pretty credible job here. A rather gutsy move performing this with minimal instrumental accompaniment. Sorry, this might not qualify as Pop. Closer to Country, I guess.

Like DH's music career in Germany, JLH has quite a following in Japan with her earlier music. But Bare Naked was released in the US & Western markets in the early 00s IIRC. As I recall, that album included some rock and pop as well as her rendition of Me and Bobby McGee

 

[TheNachoMan]

Come through and slay

Please find vocals better than this while dancing lol. It literally cant happen.

Greatest entertainer of all time. It’s really a shame how he was treated by the media and the allegations that have muddied his legacy. I think his image is slowly recovering though.

 

[MichaelNadal]

Greatest entertainer of all time. It’s really a shame how he was treated by the media and the allegations that have muddied his legacy. I think his image is slowly recovering though.

Yep when a star gets TOO big it becomes a game of tearing them down. Saw the same thing with Britney and now people are starting to realize what's really going on. At the end of the day I'm so glad mental health is a thing now and we have no idea what it's like to literally not be able to not go ANYWHERE without a hoard of paparazzi. That would make anyone "weird" after a while.

 

[Poisoned Slice]

David Gray.

 

[MichaelNadal]

Remind me how old u are Nacho

 

[Poisoned Slice]

Remind me how old u are Nacho

According to his profile 22.

 

[skaj]

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Seriously, MJ and, to a somewhat lesser extent, Britney brought in on themselves. It was not a conspiracy by the media that tarnished their reps / legacy. There have been plenty of pop and pop-adjacent stars of high stature who the media have not mounted a campaign to tear them down.

There may have been an unkind story here and there but nothing that could be construed as a conspiracy to take them down. Some that come to mind include, Madonna, Whitney, Beyoncé, Elvis, Elton John, Stevie Wonder, Billy Joel, Cher, Barbra Streisand, Paul McCartney, Dionne Warwick, Karen Carpenter, Tina Turner, Rihanna Billie Eilish, Gwen Stefani, Aretha Franklin, Andy Williams, Tony Bennett, Nat King Cole, Johnny Mathis & more.

 

[NonP]

Just wanna amend this old post of mine slightly:

Lots of amateurs here. Walk into a random music club or blues joint and chances are you'll find at least one or two toiling journeymen who to semi-trained ears can sing or jam better than most of the bigger names mentioned so far. What sets the best of 'em apart is not whether they can hit a certain note or play a difficult part, but rather what they can do with it.

Plus y'all will save yourselves a lot of time and trouble if you clarify exactly what you're talking about. Let's run through the standard categories, with pop broadly defined as anything other than classical and post-bop jazz.

If we're talking who's had the greatest impact, not just in the world of music but on popular culture at large, Sinatra, Elvis, the Beatles and MJ are in a class by themselves.

In terms of the usual criteria like singing, songwriting, instrumental prowess, etc., Prince reigns supreme followed by Stevie who due to a(n almost) congenital condition cannot hope to match his successor in showmanship.

If we're going beyond that mortal framework for what for lack of a better term could be described as ineffable genius, the Beatles, the Stones, Dylan and James Brown are each other's closest rivals.

If we're to extend that definition to singing, Elvis actually isn't such a bad choice, but he's no Aretha, who herself probably takes a back seat to Sinatra and Billie. And I've never fully warmed to the Chairman so I'll take Lady Day.

Finally ROTFL at Taylor Swift having surpassed Michael friggin' Jackson. Even as a fan and admirer of both I honestly can't name a single TayTay album that I'd take over Dangerous, and that's one of the weaker MJ records. No pop superstar's output has been as dark and paranoid as MJ's, but I guarantee you that nobody except probably the Beatles and maybe Elvis continues to stir a greater share of the global audience today, yes despite the renewed child rape controversy that will dog him to the end of time. Again it's not just about the notes or the numbers.

Think I'll add Madonna to that 1st GOAT list in terms of musical and cultural influence, not only due to her phenomenal longevity but also this:

You might recall moi observing that Diana was a largely British phenomenon that spread to the rest of Europe and North America, which would've been a surprise to many Westerners back then (case in point: who really remembers Diana now?). But then in that very post (and elsewhere) I've expressed my own shock at being corrected by an old roomie from Ghana who said many people in Africa don't know what POTUS or the pope even looks like while almost everyone knows who MJ (the gloved one though His Airness has a sizable following himself) or Madonna is.

Besides not even MJ can match Madge's sheer cornucopia of 1st-rate singles. Such immortal classics as "Holiday," "Live to Tell," "Like a Prayer," "Express Yourself" and "Vogue" will outlive almost every pop confection past or present, and the same could be said of even lesser-known gems like "Borderline"*, "Deeper and Deeper," "Rain," "Hung Up" and "Sorry":

*The otherwise perfect Immaculate Collection (which belongs even in the slenderest music library) is slightly marred by its shorter edited tracks which usually take a back seat to the album versions, but this is probably one of the few exceptions where the shorter radio remix is to be preferred over the original. (I'm still not a fan of the IC/Celebration version with its distracting QSound echo.)

Now a very belated reply:

That was a very interesting analysis of Lady Gaga's work though it probably doesn't apply in quite the same way now that she has gone and done that jazz album. I liked Bad Romance almost from the first time I heard it because it reminded me somewhat of ABBA's Money Money Money.

But the article also raises questions about what causes music to gain popularity and why music criticism is so fickle.

I wonder if the author would accept a similar premise to explain the popularity of, um, a vast majority of thrash metal but notably Slayer, or that of Iron Maiden or AC DC. I am not asking here that he should be universally consistent which doesn't even happen in music. Just making a point about how music being so multi cultural, multi hued makes its appreciation a confounded business.

This seems to be less of a problem in cinema because it is easier to affix slots for cinema like thriller, action, horror, romance, comedy, drama. And the presence of a plot line and dialogues make it easier for the audience to relate movies to life and follow the development of a movie. In music, you can have a strong visceral reaction to the SOUND of it irrespective of whether you have the awareness to put the music in context in terms of what genre it belongs to and what the artist is trying to achieve.

Yes, as you noted music is more visceral than narrative which for all its universal elements depends a lot on context. Cinema does have the luxury of involving more than one of our senses at once which makes it a more "universal" art form, but that also makes it a more demanding one which in turn means more of our time spent overall listening to favorite music than watching favorite movies. Hence the greater proliferation of songs/shorter pieces and albums vs. movies, which in turn means more music critics vs. film or literary/art/architectural ones.

That's also why film and lit criticism makes more interesting reading than its music counterpart which is, after all, exposition of how a combination of 12 notes produces certain effects on us. Too many music students and professionals spend so much of their time holed up inside their cocoons they neglect to pay attention to the world at large, and while (most) critics themselves aren't such airheads all those hours listening for work rather than pleasure must have its own significant costs.

 

[gn]

Yep when a star gets TOO big it becomes a game of tearing them down. Saw the same thing with Britney and now people are starting to realize what's really going on. At the end of the day I'm so glad mental health is a thing now and we have no idea what it's like to literally not be able to not go ANYWHERE without a hoard of paparazzi. That would make anyone "weird" after a while.

People are also part of the problem. If they are not super-obsessed with celebs, paparazzi would not be following the celebs everywhere.
Nowadays, artists promote them through social media. So paparazzi's relevance has decreased.

 

[MichaelNadal]

Just wanna amend this old post of mine slightly:



Think I'll add Madonna to that 1st GOAT list in terms of musical and cultural influence, not only due to her phenomenal longevity but also this:



Besides not even MJ can match Madge's sheer cornucopia of 1st-rate singles. Such immortal classics as "Holiday," "Live to Tell," "Like a Prayer," "Express Yourself" and "Vogue" will outlive almost every pop confection past or present, and the same could be said of even lesser-known gems like "Borderline"*, "Deeper and Deeper," "Rain," "Hung Up" and "Sorry":

*The otherwise perfect Immaculate Collection (which belongs even in the slenderest music library) is slightly marred by its shorter edited tracks which usually take a back seat to the album versions, but this is probably one of the few exceptions where the shorter radio remix is to be preferred over the original. (I'm still not a fan of the IC/Celebration version with its distracting QSound echo.)

Now a very belated reply:



Yes, as you noted music is more visceral than narrative which for all its universal elements depends a lot on context. Cinema does have the luxury of involving more than one of our senses at once which makes it a more "universal" art form, but that also makes it a more demanding one which in turn means more of our time spent overall listening to favorite music than watching favorite movies. Hence the greater proliferation of songs/shorter pieces and albums vs. movies, which in turn means more music critics vs. film or literary/art/architectural ones.

That's also why film and lit criticism makes more interesting reading than its music counterpart which is, after all, exposition of how a combination of 12 notes produces certain effects on us. Too many music students and professionals spend so much of their time holed up inside their cocoons they neglect to pay attention to the world at large, and while (most) critics themselves aren't such airheads all those hours listening for work rather than pleasure must have its own significant costs.

Such a queen, so many hits, and some of the best live performances of all time.

Madonna - Get Together [Confessions Tour DVD]

After opening her Confessions Tour with Future Lovers, Madonna performs Get Together on the main stage, dancing with two male dancers. The backdrop is in all...

youtu.be

Phenomenal.

 

[Poisoned Slice]

@Vcore89

 

[Poisoned Slice]

Chris Kirkpatrick ftw.

 

[chrischris]

I. POP.

IGGY

 

[skaj]

If we are talking about popularity and cultural impact it's Michael Jackson and Madonna.

If we are talking about singing and vocal abilities then:
Aretha Franklin
Toni Bennett
Barbra Streisand
Pat Boone
Mina
Roy Orbison
Karen Carpenter
Linda Ronstadt
Whitney Houston
George Michael

 

[Vcore89]

@Vcore89

Mr Blount ad-libbed e-f-fin' High in some of his live performances.

Don't forget Robbie Williams and, back then I'd alternate James Blunt with Dido on my MiniDisc player.

How about two barristers with one degree?

 

[Deleted member 771911]

MJ and then Britney.

 

[stringertom]

I still rate @Sentinel ’s usual avatar as GOAT. They did name a singing contest show after his nickname. Maybe one day Elon Musk can Fly Me To The Moon so I can buy old Blue Eyes One For My Baby (And One More For The Road) because he’s seen The Way You Look Tonight for the last time.

 

[Midaso240]

I'm a fan of Aguilera but totally agree with what you say about her dramatic vocal gymnastics, nonetheless, totally love her GROWL!

I see it as the rise and rise of JT, from boy band, going solo and a bona fide acting career, he's cumulatively occasioned himself into a great modern everyman for the contemporary masses. He's only at the halfway mark, there's more tricks up his sleeve, way more. Wardrobe Malfunction though essentially a Janet Jackson trick, remember?

How about Harry Styles outlasting Bieber?

One year on, care to revise that prediction on JT? Framing Britney Spears painted him in a bad light and the New York Times are about to lay the smackdown by releasing a doco on the Janet Jackson Superbowl incident. I think it's safe to say JT's mediocre pop career is coming to an end. I guess you could say that what goes around, goes around, goes around comes all the way back around

 

[MichaelNadal]

MJ and then Britney.

As much as I love Britney (and when she first came out, she could TRULY dance, it was amazing). She's too much of a product of the machine for me to put her anywhere near Madonna or Beyonce.

Captivating.

 

[Vcore89]

One year on, care to revise that prediction on JT? Framing Britney Spears painted him in a bad light and the New York Times are about to lay the smackdown by releasing a doco on the Janet Jackson Superbowl incident. I think it's safe to say JT's mediocre pop career is coming to an end. I guess you could say that what goes around, goes around, goes around comes all the way back around

JT's success is hugely buoyed by his charisma--the kind that can start a revolution and topple gov'ts. He merely elected to dedicate his craft and his ineffable effects of charisma to excel in his arena of choice . Hence, the easy transition from pop to film. The Britney Spears and Janet Jackson thingie use-by, sell-by, and best-by dates combined aren't comparable with the recent Ellen DeGeneres saga--shelf life matters and, while Ellen lost over a million viewers, she's managed to hold onto her long-running show, and so shall JT. Why so serious about people's [celebrities] misgivings?

 

[chrischris]

Eryka Badu has pop.

 

[MichaelNadal]

Eryka Badu has pop.

Slaaaay. Been so into both these lately.....

 

[TimHenmanATG]

GOATney Spears.

It's a tragedy what's going on with her at the moment.

 

[MichaelNadal]

GOATney Spears.

It's a tragedy what's going on with her at the moment.

It's scary too. If you see her Instagram videos from the past few months they are deeply concerning.

 

[Deleted member 771911]

As much as I love Britney (and when she first came out, she could TRULY dance, it was amazing). She's too much of a product of the machine for me to put her anywhere near Madonna or Beyonce.

Captivating.

I just love her. I really enjoy her interviews and just her vibe. I want to hang out with her! I am worried for her, though. She's living a messed up life and I hope she gets her freedom.

 

[TimHenmanATG]

It's scary too. If you see her Instagram videos from the past few months they are deeply concerning.

It's disgusting, yet apparently it's "legal".

Every single outside observer can see that Britney is basically being held as a captive, and that her "controllers" are horrible people.

How can we even operate as a society when we see such glaring injustices right under our nose?

 

[Ronaldo]

The Pinnacle!

 

[MichaelNadal]

I just love her. I really enjoy her interviews and just her vibe. I want to hang out with her! I am worried for her, though. She's living a messed up life and I hope she gets her freedom.

It's disgusting, yet apparently it's "legal".

Every single outside observer can see that Britney is basically being held as a captive, and that her "controllers" are horrible people.

How can we even operate as a society when we see such glaring injustices right under our nose?

Definitely. A week or two ago she was dancing to a french song that translated to "S.O.S" and has done alot of other coded things to send signals. She should definitely be let out of that mess. They are probably giving her meds she doesnt need and spending her money. Scary stuff

 

[Deleted member 771911]

Definitely. A week or two ago she was dancing to a french song that translated to "S.O.S" and has done alot of other coded things to send signals. She should definitely be let out of that mess. They are probably giving her meds she doesnt need and spending her money. Scary stuff

It made me quite sad watching that recent documentary on her. If you watch interviews with her over the decade she comes across as very intelligent. I think this is her downfall as her captors were probably going to get very little out of her unless they did a number on her.