Goat?

Wodz

Rookie
WARNING: This is VERY long but very serious



I had written a 6 page paper on this topic but apparently deleted it (lack of interest). So I will write another 6 pages on this topic.

I find it interesting that people keep having this "GOAT" arguing. I find it entertaining yet absolutely ********.

The concept of a GOAT is impossible. I will save everyone the trouble of using wikipedia to look up players from 1930 and will only talk about Rod Laver for a bit.

Laver and Federer are the only two players that should even be discussed when talking about the "greatest of all time".

Rod Laver won the "calendar slam" in 1969. Let us take a trip back to 1969 and look at that year. It is very important to note that although Laver won all four majors in 1969 he never won a slam after that. Having done vast research on the history of tennis we run into very specific roadblocks that make this "GOAT" concept very difficult. The first is airfare.

Transport: First we need to understand the history of transportation and why this is such an important factor for this conversation. Back in 1960-1970 air travel was a luxury usually reserved for the wealthy and businessman predominately traveled to meetings of large corporations. Air fare was very expensive and for someone like Rod Laver, flying to NYC, London and Paris was a big ask, even for one year. Historically, we can see that most players before 1990 players closer to their home tournaments and the vast majority of players did not attend the Australian Open. Due to financial strain the tournaments (like the AOpen) started paying players to actually show up and compete. Even this was difficult as the pay was very low (due to lack of corporate backing) and dealing with jet lag. Laver has gone on record saying that many people did not bother with the "majors" as players back then did not have "careers" since they were mainly amateur players. The concept of the professional tour took some time to catch-on and that had to do with corporate backing. Air fare SLOWLY became more affordable over the decades which saw more players showing up at tournaments.

Show me the money: From 1967 back into the 1800’s the concept of prize money at a tournament was unheard of. Would you pay to fly all over the world to compete in tournaments that you might win a trophy for? You would go broke. Prize money was introduced in 1968 and it was very little. In 1969 the prize money at Wimbledon was $3,342 USD (converted) and with inflation that is $21,213 (up 534%). That means by today’s standards Rod Laver would have received a check for $21,000 (remember that the cost of living and inflation has already been taken into account). The 2013 prize money at Wimbledon was 2.67 million dollars. Although the numbers are not identical, here is a breakdown; if Federer was to win all four majors in 2013 he would receive 10.6 million dollars, Rod Laver received $84,852 for his calendar slam. Money and nothing more is what has driven tennis forward. With corporate sponsorships and tennis academies springing up around the world we saw the sport grow larger and larger. As this happened tennis began to reach new countries like Serbia and Croatia. Any aspiring star would train hard to potentially win tens of millions of dollars, but to win tens of thousands of dollars (as your peak income)? Laver did not play for the money, it was a joke. He played because he loved tennis and wanted to compete. If you really do not have much on the line there is no reason to train and fight so hard to win. Money is what changed tennis. Giant stadiums were built. New events were created to attract more people. Above all else, tennis is a business and its main goal if profit.

The prestige: Although tennis first started back in the 1500’s the concept of the Grand Slam events was not established until 1925. This alone means that the concept of a GOAT automatically excludes everyone before 1925. Wimbledon and the French, for example, were private tournaments until 1926 although dominated by French winners until 1947. We know that players did not take tennis very seriously before 1968 so anyone winning the calendar slam or winning many majors happened to have a good year or was a good player at one particular event. Max Decugis won 8 FO titles and reached 12 FO finals before the era of the slams. Don Budge and Rod Laver completed the calendar slams during the amateur era. If the open era concept is constricting the past due to complications then the discussion limits anyone prior to 1968. We start getting into the Connors/Borg era where players started to take the Pro tour seriously but were still earning small prize money. We land somewhere around 1978 when we start being able to find criteria for players attempting to actually covet grand slam titles and win a conceptual calendar slam. Finance still plays a huge deterrent as most players cannot afford to travel the world and compete in tournaments. Tennis is still for the rich..but things are slowly changing. As prize money grows and money pours into the sport of tennis through corporate backing we see the sport grow and with the concept of winning more money we see more new talents pouring into the Pro tour to make it big. 1978 until 2014 is only 36 years. These “grand slam” trophies and historical prestige is an illusion as we have been forced to dismiss nearly 500 years of tennis history or nearly 100 years of history at Wimbledon and other tournaments.
Even during 1969 Laver did not consider himself the GOAT, he simply says he had a good year. He did not even consider himself the best player in the world during 1969.
Laver interview –
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlHhmp1UlSk
Wimbledon prize money history - http://www.wimbledon.com/en_GB/about_aeltc/201205091336574569863.html
 
Continued...

Moving on to more “criteria” to discredit..

Calendar slam: New concept once money was slowly poured into tennis
Grand slam count: No one cares before 1970+ and with understandings of money markets and finance we will only see more and more records broken as more money is put on the line for our entertainment
Career slam: A poor mans version of the calendar slam, this concept was created as a PR ploy around 1988 (you guys can correct me on the details). Winning all four majors was not something sought after until around 1990. We see a significant gap in history for this item. Before Federer starting winning slams the AOpen had a very troubled financial background. Players like Borg, Sampras, Connors and virtually every famous Pro from the “open era” skipped the AOpen because it was considered a joke (this is not news). If virtually all of the top players from 1968-2000 (give or take) was skipping this tournament it was not possible for players to win the calendar or career slam.. Which should scream a very very important point.. no one cared! Pete Sampras was the first player to come along and seriously challenge Roy Emerson’s long standing major haul of 12 all-time titles (61-67). Andre Agassi completed the calendar slam skipped the AOpen 10 times during his pro career, yet still won the title 4 times! Even into 2000 we see the AOpen not being taken very seriously.
Golden slam: This concept was created as a PR ploy by Sports Illustrated in 1988 after Graff won the “golden slam” (4 majors+Olympic gold) in the same year. This concept is a complete marketing joke that unfortunately has been adopted by many newcomers of tennis as a criteria for the “GOAT”. The Golden Career Slam and Golden Calendar Slam is a marketing scam devised to increase profit through manipulation. Many believe that winning an Olympic gold medal is a very important component to the GOAT conversation. This could not be further from the truth.
I had studied the history of men’s tennis at the Olympics and found a few interesting facts. As most of you might know, tennis was not re-introduced to the Olympics until 1988, this negates all players from 1925 until 1988 from attempting to win either Golden feat. It was not until 2004 that the world number one actually bothered attending the Olympic games, in fact both the mens and womens world number one attended that year. Since 2004 we have seen a significant effort in Olympic tennis in regards to sponsorship, fan turnout and player participation. Once the world number one started showing up..the rest of the field followed. If you review the past 4 (prior to 2004) games you will notice that the draw is missing most (usually more than 50%) of the top 20 players in the world. Agassi completed the golden career slam because he bothered to actually show up to the Olympics that year. An Olympic medal is a big deal, do not misunderstand me. The relative significance of tennis in the Olympics is a new (2004) concept so Nadal winning a gold medal does not make him more of a “GOAT” candidate over say, Bjorn Borg who did have a chance to play in the Olympics as tennis did not even exist (as an included sport).

Olympic tennis –
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Olympic_medalists_in_tennis

1996 Olympic draw - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennis_at_the_1996_Summer_Olympics_–_Men's_Singles
1996, July men’s top 100 rankings (note how many players are missing from the Olympics) –
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Rankings/Singles.aspx?d=15.07.1996&r=1&c=#

Head to head is a complete joke. Even former number ones have said “How can Roger Federer be the greatest player of all-time if he cannot consistently beat everyone in his own time?” I laugh when I hear this as court speeds are clearly not being taken into consideration. The conversation is not about Federer v Nadal, it is about “the greatest of all-time”. No one knows the H2H of Laver v Emerson or Borg v Connors.. you would have to look that information up (as you should). Fifty years ago was 1964 during the amateur era and the biggest rivalry of the day was Rod Laver vs Ken Rosewall. Two of the most significant players in tennis history. Fifty years later the vast majority of tennis fans have never heard of these people and might have seen their names referenced in the history books. No one knows jack about Rosewall’s game or how many times he played Laver and no one cares. The same will happen with the Federer v Nadal rivalry and the Nadal v Djokovic rivalry. People are thinking short-term and not understanding that in 50 years there will have been players that have came and gone that will have broken the records of Federer and Nadal. Each generation is foolish enough to think that the accolades of players of their current era will last forever and this has been proven incorrect every time. Certain records may stand the test of time, but very few. The concept of any H2H is meaningless in the grand scope of time. Federer could retire being 30-5 over Nadal or Nadal retires as 30-5 over Federer and in fifty years that will be a statistic that is scoffed at. That is not a big picture concept, not even close. Grasping at straws to make yourself believe that your guy is the best ever is delusional. There is no best ever because we constantly need to discredit the past in order to build forward.

We cannot even compare ground strokes over generations as the training regiments have vastly changed now that tens of millions of dollars are on the table. Players in 1970 did not train the way that players today train. They did not seek to win 13 major titles. They did not seek to punish every possible return from 10 feet behind the baseline..because there was no point. Tennis evolved and then devolved into what we have today. Players have become too athletic and the gentlemans game of tennis has become a baseline war. Roger Federer’s retirement will be the saddest day in tennis history as the true concept of serve and volley will have died with his career. The training to play on fast courts with sliding balls and being a true all-court player will vanish from tennis altogether.

We can only compare ground strokes of players from maybe the 1970’s going forward. Technology has simply made it easier for people to play tennis. That does not mean that the athletes of today are swinging 40mph faster than in 1980. Becker has publically stated that the serving speed of todays players is the same as during the 1980’s (and probably the 1970’s by that logic). Before 1970 we find that most players did not train very hard as tennis was not taken very seriously. Due to this history we cannot truly say who was the best server in history or who had the best backhand. The best we can do is compare players from 1970 until present.

If there was such a provable concept as a “GOAT” I would again, split that between Laver and Federer. Laver completed the calendar slam two times (once as an amateur and once as a pro). Laver and virtually all other famous players of the past have publically denounced the concept of a calendar slam calling it “impossible”. Federer is the only player in the open era to even reach the final of all four majors in the same calendar year. More amazing than that feat he accomplished this THREE times and came close to achieving this on 5 total occasions (05-09). If that alone is not enough we then turn to the fact that Federer is one of the few players in the open era to win 3 out of 4 majors in a calendar year. He is the only player to have won 3 majors and have reached all four finals in the same year. He has accomplished this multiple times. This is the closest comparison to Rod Laver or slam history when reviewing records from 1925-2014.
Nadal on this topic - http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/tenni...winning-calendar-slam-impossible--tennis.html
Article on topic - http://www.tennisearth.com/news/ten...ssible-in-the-Golden-Age-of-Tennis-625603.htm
Becker speaks about this and other topics –
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17dDEOh8A4s


Conclusion – There is no GOAT as “all time” has not ended yet. We can say “the greatest player I have ever seen”..that is valid.

If we talk about the concept of a GPW (greatest player witnessed) then certain unbiased things need to be taken into account as it illustrates dominance over the sport as a whole.

Slam count – the sub categories are important as it illustrates that a player was always deep within slams
GS finals reached
GS SF reached
GS QF reached
Year’s #1
Weeks #1
Consecutive weeks #1
Masters titles
Career titles
Comparative skillset to players since 1970
Serve
Return of serve
Backhand
Forehand
Slicing
Volley
Footwork
Court awareness
Bagels?


Things that are irrelevant when talking about the "greatest player witnessed"

Olympic gold - Not taken seriously until 2004
Golden calendar/career slam

Career slam - Not very relevant as players did not aspire to win this until recently due to the AOpen's poor history. We cannot say Nadal won the AOpen/career slam so therefore he is better than Bjorn Borg.. that is idiotic.

Calendar slam - Impossible by players standards, even Laver said so

H2H - More than two players exist from 1970 until now so judging Borg on how he specifically played McEnroe is amateur and pointless when attempting to view the player as a whole.

Retirements/injuries - No need to discuss this as certain players might have been much better without injury but this is massive speculation.

Anything else?

I rank the best overall players as

Federer
Laver
Borg
Sampras

All four could hit any shot, all were famous servers and could dominate on their surfaces (except Laver as hard courts did not even exist). Overall is the big key here.
 
I know that this post will not squash the stupid GOAT debate but perhaps some people that knew less information will see this post over the years and gain a lot of information that they did not know before.


I just effortlessly wrote 6 pages on this topic and could have extended this to 20 if I had felt like it. It would be nice to engage in serious discussion about some of the topics that I touched on.

I will not even get into denouncing Nadal or talk about the speed of the courts destroying mens tennis..that would be another 6 pages :p
 
I know that this post will not squash the stupid GOAT debate but perhaps some people that knew less information will see this post over the years and gain a lot of information that they did not know before.


I just effortlessly wrote 6 pages on this topic and could have extended this to 20 if I had felt like it. It would be nice to engage in serious discussion about some of the topics that I touched on.

I will not even get into denouncing Nadal or talk about the speed of the courts destroying mens tennis..that would be another 6 pages :p

Wodz, I'm rather confused. One one hand you have undertaken a hugh task in giving much important information to the readers. Thanks.

On the other hand you yet wrote some wrong things.

Most of all all you don't obviously know that there was pro tennis before open era at all !! Even long before. The first pro tournament was held as early as 1900 in Paris. Since 1927 there always were two tennis circuits: the amateur and the pro. The pros always were paid officially.You know much but you surely miss important parts of tennis history!

The old pros always took the pro tour seriously. You even neglect the open era before Connors and Borg!

Hardcourts did exist in Laver's time. Rod won many hardcourt events.

Decugis did not win 8 FO. They were not open for pros plus not open for foreigners.

Laver did not consider himself as the best player for 1969? Do you suggest he is an idiot? Seldom a player dominated a full year as clearly as Laver did in 1969!

Grand Slam a new concept? Do you know a certain Don Budge?

Hth is not a joke at all! It is one of the main criteria to judge and rank players.

We need to discredit the past?????

Federer AND Laver reached the finals of all open era GS tournaments in the same calendar year.

Federer is truly NOT the only comparison to Laver or slam history! Tilden, Budge, Vines, Kramer, Gonzalez, Rosewall, Borg, Sampras and Nadal also are...
 
Fail thread .. Write a paper on luck and weak era. Lavers cygs = rafa s h2h..people will talk 50 years later too

Care to write a detailed analysis of the so-called weak era? No one is talking about events 50 years in the past.. the vast majority of people will not know or care about H2H of past players.
 
Don't get too serious. It's only a game.
Anyways we all know Gasquet is the GOAT. Stats mean nothing. Play beautiful tennis.
 
Care to write a detailed analysis of the so-called weak era? No one is talking about events 50 years in the past.. the vast majority of people will not know or care about H2H of past players.

LOL...u think I am joke like you to write?
since you are in the business of doing detailed research to prove your agenda, try research on 'weak era'.
start of with 'is weak era possible' then see 'if it happened at Feds time'.
funny Laver have 11 slams u mention him after all these decades....so will rafa be conisdered for GOAT. If people like you mention CYGS for Rafa, people will mention H2H for Rafas case just like you did decades later.how hard is that to see lol? unless you are in your teens.
 
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LOL...u think I am joke like you to write?
since you are in the business of doing detailed research to prove your agenda, try research on 'weak era'.
start of with 'is weak era possible' then see 'if it happened at Feds time'.
funny Laver have 11 slams u mention him after all these decades....so will rafa be conisdered for GOAT. If people like you mention CYGS for Rafa, people will mention H2H for Rafas case just like you did decades later.how hard is that to see lol? unless you are in your teens.

Hey brilliant : Rafa winning 8 out of the past 9 RG means a greatest ever clay court player and not weak era for you. But Fed winning 9 out of 12 slams (in 2004-2007) period means weak era. Don't know about OP but I am positive you brain hasn't gotten to teen level yet.
 
Wodz, I'm rather confused. One one hand you have undertaken a hugh task in giving much important information to the readers. Thanks.

- Thanks for taking the time to read this and give insightful responses!

Most of all all you don't obviously know that there was pro tennis before open era at all !! Even long before. The first pro tournament was held as early as 1900 in Paris. Since 1927 there always were two tennis circuits: the amateur and the pro. The pros always were paid officially.You know much but you surely miss important parts of tennis history!
Of course I know that there was a Pro tour before the Open Era. I think you just miss my point and that I was focusing on the fact that players were not playing tennis to get rich. There was no prize money in the amateur circuit which included the 4 Grand Slam events. If financially all of the amateur tournaments paid zero then winning Wimbledon was not very important compared to today where you would win 2 million. The point of this was that players were not going out there trying to win the “Grand Slam” and were not trying to win as many slams as possible. These are not my words, Laver himself has made this very clear. Since the topic was regarding Grand Slams there was no need to talk about the Pro circuit pre 1968. Thanks for bringing this up either way.
The old pros always took the pro tour seriously. You even neglect the open era before Connors and Borg!
Of course players on the PROFESSIONAL tour took it seriously but the 4 Grand Slam events were not part of the professional tour so there is no need to keep discussing this. The slams that exist today and have existed for such a long time were part of the amateur tour. After Laver won the Grand Slam in 1969 what monumental activity do we see in the ATP before Connors and Borg start dominating? Do we see any activity that has absolutely anything to do with the conversation of GOAT’s? No
Hardcourts did exist in Laver's time. Rod won many hardcourt events.
Valid correction. How many HC Grand Slams did Rod Laver win? Zero, which was my main point. People push Nadal as the GOAT because he won Slams on 3 surfaces.. and that is a new concept with the inception of hard courts.
Decugis did not win 8 FO. They were not open for pros plus not open for foreigners.
We can revise that and say Decugis won 8 titles during the French only era. The same goes for Wimbledon. As the tournament was not considered a Grand Slam event until 1925 then officially Decugis would not count. Not disagreeing with you here 
Laver did not consider himself as the best player for 1969? Do you suggest he is an idiot? Seldom a player dominated a full year as clearly as Laver did in 1969!
I was directly quoting Rod Laver. I am having trouble finding exactly what he said but he talked about during 1969 winning all four slams in one year he felt he had “a good year” as opposed to being the best in the world. Laver is very humble. After his first slam he said it was a great honor to be in the same club as Don Budge. I am only going by things that I have heard Laver say directly. He was by far the best player in 1969.
Grand Slam a new concept? Do you know a certain Don Budge?
You misunderstand what I said. “Calendar slam: New concept once money was slowly poured into tennis” I am talking very specifically about the importance of the Calendar Slam not the concept of winning it. “who wants to it it. But its amateur tennis, so no one was really high on the list as saying I’ve got to win this tournament for my career, there was no career”. - Rod Laver talking about the Grand Slam titles - Players from 1925 to 1968 (for example) were not going out there in the amateur days and saying “my goal is to win all four majors in a calendar year”. I doubt we can find a quote of Don Budge saying that his goal was to win all four majors that year. This point here is that the concept of going out and winning all four slams in a calendar year is a new CONCEPT.. it has been sitting there for a very long time but no one really cared.. because it was amateur tennis.. as Rod Laver has stated over and over.
Hth is not a joke at all! It is one of the main criteria to judge and rank players.
Roddick is considered one of the best servers in history. He has a very poor H2H in Federer and lost in GS finals when it counted the most. Roddick is not in the conversation for greatest player so what relevance does it have that Federer beat him over and over and how does that help compare Roddick to say John McEnroe?
We need to discredit the past?????
Take Djokovic of today and beam him back to 1930 and put him against player X. Djokovic is a heavily trained professional athlete. Take the player of 1930 and beam him into tennis today and he cannot compete. The further back we go the further we see incomparable differences in the sport that do not allow us to evaluate different players. The same is unfortunately true when we talk about the significance of winning each event of the course of history since 1925. We cannot say “Nadal is the GOAT because he won the career slam and barely anyone else did” because when did people start trying to set out and actually accomplish this?
Federer AND Laver reached the finals of all open era GS tournaments in the same calendar year.
I covered that as I had already mentioned that Laver on the Grand Slam in 69. I never stated “Federer is the ONLY player to reach the finals of all”.. maybe you did not read everything I wrote lol (UNDERSTANDABLE! Haha)
Federer is truly NOT the only comparison to Laver or slam history! Tilden, Budge, Vines, Kramer, Gonzalez, Rosewall, Borg, Sampras and Nadal also are...
So Borg and Sampras would be in the conversation having a combined zero AOpen titles? I am happy that you are naming other people.. that is what I want people to do.. have serious conversations about a real topic.
 
Hey brilliant : Rafa winning 8 out of the past 9 RG means a greatest ever clay court player and not weak era for you. But Fed winning 9 out of 12 slams (in 2004-2007) period means weak era. Don't know about OP but I am positive you brain hasn't gotten to teen level yet.

You are funny...thats your reason for weak era..not mine..
Feds era was weak coz the competition was weak.its not determined by number of slams Fed won
 
I am very familiar with the "weak era" concept. It states that Federer is a hack and was only able to win so many slams because he had virtually no competition during his peak years and suddenly Nadal came along and proved that Federer was a hack.

This conversation has been discussed over and over. I get that English is your second language but you are grasping at straws and in two posts you have pushed direct insults at me while I have taken the time to post a thread talking about very exciting topics of tennis history.. if you are not interested in the topic at hand do not bother posting here.

I will not bother getting into the "weak era" discussion as this has been debated in many other threads already.

I also believe you strongly misunderstand my views. The Federer v Nadal H2H is meaningless in my opinion primarily due to the speed of the courts which was not within the control of the players. This drastic change is what has allowed Nadal to dominate tennis. This is not news. If Federer was 26-5 over Nadal I would be stating exactly the same.

This article is not titled "Federer vs Nadal - who is better". If you are unwilling to talk about Rod Laver then stop posting.


"If people like you mention CYGS for Rafa, people will mention H2H for Rafas case just like you did decades later." - I have no idea what you are even trying to say here. This has to be one of the dumbest things I have ever seen. We talk about A today= decades later we talk about D? wtf..
 
You are funny...thats your reason for weak era..not mine..
Feds era was weak coz the competition was weak.its not determined by number of slams Fed won

He clearly is not familiar with the weak era concept. Maybe we should just blame Roger Federer for this "weak era". How many former world number one's did Federer beat during that time? How many GS champions did he beat? He timing was a bit odd with the changing of the guard..the same goes for Nadal. Federer is playing during two eras (the second being Nadal's).
 
"If people like you mention CYGS for Rafa, people will mention H2H for Rafas case just like you did decades later." - I have no idea what you are even trying to say here. This has to be one of the dumbest things I have ever seen. We talk about A today= decades later we talk about D? wtf..

You have no idea because your logic and common sense are not your forte.
Laver doesnt have 17 slams, why did you mention him in your op? Why mention CYGS?
For the same stupid reason, people like you will write essays of why Nadal is goat citing h2h (hence lavers cygs = rafa h2h)

if you still dont get it, dont try hard..Its not your fault...Its Gods fault.
 
Did you check your facts? Sampras won two AOs. Did you not see that he the one who gave the trophy to Wawrinka?

Oh, and you're taking this way too seriously.
 
Did you check your facts? Sampras won two AOs. Did you not see that he the one who gave the trophy to Wawrinka?

Oh, and you're taking this way too seriously.

I meant to say Agassi :) Agassi and Borg.. AOpen, makes more sense now, right?
 
You have no idea because your logic and common sense are not your forte.
Laver doesnt have 17 slams, why did you mention him in your op? Why mention CYGS?
For the same stupid reason, people like you will write essays of why Nadal is goat citing h2h (hence lavers cygs = rafa h2h)

if you still dont get it, dont try hard..Its not your fault...Its Gods fault.


"You have no idea" - Idea of what?

"Common sense" Where does this play when I kept talking about tennis history and stats?

"why did you mention him" - Because the title of this thread does not say "which player has the most grand slam titles in tennis history"

"you will write essays of why Nadal is goat" Where did I write an essay about Nadal being the GOAT? Link me

It appears that you read some other article and are commenting on things that do not exist. Actually read what I wrote or stfu
 
"You have no idea" - Idea of what? Exactly

"Common sense" Where does this play when I kept talking about tennis history and stats? Right you dont need it. And right you wrote 100s of lines os stats and no opinions. Right.

"why did you mention him" - Because the title of this thread does not say "which player has the most grand slam titles in tennis history" same reason people will mention Rafa in Goat threads dumbo

"you will write essays of why Nadal is goat" Where did I write an essay about Nadal being the GOAT? Link me duh..people like you...LIKE YOU..

It appears that you read some other article and are commenting on things that do not exist. Actually read what I wrote or stfu Denial..denial


bolded for you dumbo
 
bolded for you dumbo

Since you cannot respond in coherent sentences I will not bother responding to you after this. This point of the article was actually talking about how the concept of a GOAT is impossible and then I proceeded to break down various "criteria" that people cite. Since that was too difficult for you to comprehend there is no need to spoon feed you. This thread is about a concept, not a discussion about Nadal's place in history.

I done entertaining your stupidity
 
op needs to get his facts correct about when the French open was the French open,

and also the 1992 olympics had Edberg, courier, becker, Sampras etc..surely one of those was world no1 at that time.
 
I know that this post will not squash the stupid GOAT debate but perhaps some people that knew less information will see this post over the years and gain a lot of information that they did not know before.


I just effortlessly wrote 6 pages on this topic and could have extended this to 20 if I had felt like it. It would be nice to engage in serious discussion about some of the topics that I touched on.

I will not even get into denouncing Nadal or talk about the speed of the courts destroying mens tennis..that would be another 6 pages :p

Wodz-

Very long article but quite interesting.

I'm not saying whatever you read is right. But you started new trend.

BTE isn't one dimensional concept, this is one way to approach BTE.
 
Wodz-

Very long article but quite interesting.

I'm not saying whatever you read is right. But you started new trend.

BTE isn't one dimensional concept, this is one way to approach BTE.

Exactly and I was just looking to get a fun conversation started about this concept and what criteria is or is not applicable. Thus far people have been focusing on the wrong points and have been missing the larger picture. No one talks about transportation costs during 1972 and how transportation has uniformly changed tennis. No one seems to talk about the vast prize money on the table that is expending and the reach of tennis across the world and suddenly we have a world number one from Serbia. These are amazing conversations but people here seem more interested in nitpicking microscopic details. Very immature responses thus far.

Thanks for your response :)
 
Exactly and I was just looking to get a fun conversation started about this concept and what criteria is or is not applicable. Thus far people have been focusing on the wrong points and have been missing the larger picture. No one talks about transportation costs during 1972 and how transportation has uniformly changed tennis. No one seems to talk about the vast prize money on the table that is expending and the reach of tennis across the world and suddenly we have a world number one from Serbia. These are amazing conversations but people here seem more interested in nitpicking microscopic details. Very immature responses thus far.

Thanks for your response :)

I fully agree with you transportation changed the Tennis.

AO was less prestigious tournament then. Borg participated AO just once. ( 1974 ).

In that era YEC was more prestigious than AO. Borg won that thrice. My opinion is Borg is underrated in BTE discussions.

He retired at 26 with 14 major trophies and around 170 weeks at No.1

He won 41% of the slams that he entered, which is still all time record.


My all list of greatest players in open era:

1) Federer
2) Sampras
3) Borg
4) Lendl
5) Nadal
 
WARNING: This is VERY long but very serious



I had written a 6 page paper on this topic but apparently deleted it (lack of interest).

So I will write another 6 pages on this topic.
Please don't!


I find it interesting that people keep having this "GOAT" arguing. I find it entertaining yet absolutely ********.

The concept of a GOAT is impossible. I will save everyone the trouble of using wikipedia to look up players from 1930 and will only talk about Rod Laver for a bit.

Laver and Federer are the only two players that should even be discussed when talking about the "greatest of all time".

Rod Laver won the "calendar slam" in 1969. Let us take a trip back to 1969 and look at that year. It is very important to note " concept very difficult. The first is airfare.

Transport: First we need to understand the history of transportation inflation that is $21,213 (up 534%). That means by today’s saw the sport grow larger and larger. As this happened tennis began to reach new countries like Serbia and Croatia. Any
gg60133742.jpg
aspiring star would train hard to potentially win tens of millions of dollars, but to win tens of thousands of dollars (as your peak income)? Laver did not play for the money, it was a joke. He played because he loved tennis and wanted to compete. If you main goal if profit.

The prestige: Although tennis first started back in the 1500’s the concept of the Grand Slam events was not established until 1925. This alone means that the concept of a GOAT automatically excludes everyone before 1925. Wimbledon and the French, for example, were private tournaments until 1926 although the discussion as most players cannot afford to travel the world and compete in tournaments. Tennis is still for the rich..but things are slowly changing. As prize money grows and money pours into the sport of tennis through corporate backing we see the sport grow and with the concept of winning more money we see more new talents pouring into the Pro tour to make it big. 1978 until 2014 is only 36 years. These “grand slam” trophies and historical prestige is an illusion as we have been forced to dismiss nearly 500 years of tennis history or nearly 100 years of history at Wimbledon and other tournaments.
Even during 1969 Laver did not consider himself the GOAT, he simply says he had a good year. He did not even consider himself the best player in the world during 1969.
Laver interview –
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlHhmp1UlSk
Wimbledon prize money history - http://www.wimbledon.com/en_GB/about_aeltc/201205091336574569863.html


[size=+3]Continued...[/size]

Moving on to more “criteria” to discredit..

Calendar slam: New concept once money was slowly poured into tennis
Grand slam count: No one cares before 1970+ and with understandings of money markets and finance we will only see more and more records broken as more money is put on the line for our entertainment
Career slam: A poor mans version of the calendar slam, this concept was created as a PR ploy around 1988 (you guys can correct me on the details). Winning all four majors was not see the AOpen not being taken very seriously.
Golden slam: This concept was created as a PR ploy by Sports Illustrated not re in the Olympics as tennis did not even exist (as an included sport).

Olympic tennis –
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Olympic_medalists_in_tennis

1996 Olympic draw - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennis_at_the_1996_Summer_Olympics_–_Men's_Singles
1996, July men’s top 100 rankings (note how many players are missing from the Olympics) –
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Rankings/Singles.aspx?d=15.07.1996&r=1&c=#

Head to head is a complete joke. Even former number ones have said “How can Roger Federer be the greatest player of all-time if he cannot consiste
12196579-rejected-rubber-stamp.jpg
ntly beat everyone in his own time?” I laugh when I hear this as court speeds are clearly not being taken into consideration. The conversation is not about Federer v Nadal, it is about “the greatest of all-time”. No one knows the H2H of Laver v Emerson or Borg v Connors.. you would have to look that information up (as you should). Fifty years ago was 1964 during the is no best ever because we constantly need to discredit the past in order to build forward.

We cannot even compare ground strokes over generations as the training regiments have vastly changed now that tens of millions of dollars are on the table. Players in 1970 did not train the way that fast courts with sliding balls and being a true all-court player will vanish from tennis altogether.

We can only compare ground strokes of players from maybe the 1970’s going forward. Technology has simply made it easier for people to play tennis. That does not mean that the athletes of today are swinging 40mph faster than in 1980. Becker has publically stated that the serving speed of todays players is the same as during the 1980’s (and probably the 1970’s by that logic). Before 1970 we find that most players did not train very hard as tennis was not taken very seriously. Due to this history the concept of a calendar slam calling it “impossible”. Federer is the only player in the open era to even reach the final of all four majors in the same calendar year. More amazing than that feat he accomplished this THREE times and has accomplished this multiple times. This is the closest comparison to Rod Laver or slam history when reviewing records from 1925-2014.
Nadal on this topic - http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/tenni...winning-calendar-slam-impossible--tennis.html
Article on topic - http://www.tennisearth.com/news/ten...ssible-in-the-Golden-Age-of-Tennis-625603.htm
Becker speaks about this and other topics –
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17dDEOh8A4s


Conclusion – There is no GOAT as “all time” has not ended yet. We can say “the greatest player I have ever seen”..that is valid.

If we talk about the concept of a GPW (greatest player witnessed) then certain unbiased things need to be taken into account as it illustrates dominance over the sport as a whole.

Slam count – the sub categories are important as it illustrates that a player was always deep within slams
GS finals reached
GS SF reached
GS QF reached
Year’s #1
Weeks #1
Consecutive weeks #1
Masters titles
Career titles
Comparative skillset to players since 1970
Serve
Return of serve
Backhand
Forehand
Slicing
Volley
Footwork
Court awareness
Bagels?


Things that are irrelevant when talking about the "greatest player witnessed"

Olympic gold - Not taken seriously until 2004
Golden calendar/career slam

Career slam - Not very relevant as players did not aspire to win this until recently due to the AOpen's poor history. We cannot say Nadal won the AOpen/career slam so therefore he is better than Bjorn Borg.. that is idiotic.

Calendar slam - Impossible by players standards, even Laver said so

H2H - More than two players exist from 1970 until now so judging Borg on how he specifically played McEnroe is amateur and pointless when attempting to view the player as a whole.

Retirements/injuries - No need to discuss this as certain players might have been much better without injury but this is massive speculation.

Anything else?

I rank the best overall players as

Federer
Laver
Borg
Sampras

All four could hit any shot, all were famous servers and could dominate on their surfaces (except Laver as hard courts did not even exist). Overall is the big key here.

I know that this post will not squash the stupid GOAT debate but perhaps some people that knew less information will see this post over the years and gain a lot of information that they did not know before.


I just effortlessly wrote 6 pages on this topic and could have extended this to 20 if I had felt like it. It would be nice to engage in serious discussion about some of the topics that I touched on.

I will not even get into denouncing Nadal or talk about the speed of the courts destroying mens tennis..that would be another 6 pages

17861854-case-closed-red-rubber-stamp-over-a-white-background.jpg



__________________
 
The reason GOAT threads end up nowhere (thus creating yet another one to pick up where the last one went... nowhere) is because in order to have a conversation there needs to be a common understanding of the relative importance (if any) of various factors/variables, like:

Active career vs complete career, advantage to the latter
The importance of All Time tennis prowess vs prowess within their own era, advantage to Modern players
Criteria for evaluating a career (given Fed's dominance, very few would not have him #1, perhaps more important for #s 2 etc than #1)
Playing the "what if" game vs their actual stats

etc.

Only those who have taken the effort to establish the ground rules of the discussion can possibly communicate effectively on this topic.
 
I read the whole OP's post and found it fascinating! I was ignoring this thread looking at the title. Thought it would be another brainless goat thread. Almost missed reading it. We need more good posts like this which enrich our knowledge of tennis history.
 
WARNING: This is VERY long but very serious



I had written a 6 page paper on this topic but apparently deleted it (lack of interest).

So I will write another 6 pages on this topic.
Please don't!


I find it interesting that people keep having this "GOAT" arguing. I find it entertaining yet absolutely ********.

The concept of a GOAT is impossible. I will save everyone the trouble of using wikipedia to look up players from 1930 and will only talk about Rod Laver for a bit.

Laver and Federer are the only two players that should even be discussed when talking about the "greatest of all time".

Rod Laver won the "calendar slam" in 1969. Let us take a trip back to 1969 and look at that year. It is very important to note " concept very difficult. The first is airfare.

Transport: First we need to understand the history of transportation inflation that is $21,213 (up 534%). That means by today’s saw the sport grow larger and larger. As this happened tennis began to reach new countries like Serbia and Croatia. Any
gg60133742.jpg
aspiring star would train hard to potentially win tens of millions of dollars, but to win tens of thousands of dollars (as your peak income)? Laver did not play for the money, it was a joke. He played because he loved tennis and wanted to compete. If you main goal if profit.

The prestige: Although tennis first started back in the 1500’s the concept of the Grand Slam events was not established until 1925. This alone means that the concept of a GOAT automatically excludes everyone before 1925. Wimbledon and the French, for example, were private tournaments until 1926 although the discussion as most players cannot afford to travel the world and compete in tournaments. Tennis is still for the rich..but things are slowly changing. As prize money grows and money pours into the sport of tennis through corporate backing we see the sport grow and with the concept of winning more money we see more new talents pouring into the Pro tour to make it big. 1978 until 2014 is only 36 years. These “grand slam” trophies and historical prestige is an illusion as we have been forced to dismiss nearly 500 years of tennis history or nearly 100 years of history at Wimbledon and other tournaments.
Even during 1969 Laver did not consider himself the GOAT, he simply says he had a good year. He did not even consider himself the best player in the world during 1969.
Laver interview –
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlHhmp1UlSk
Wimbledon prize money history - http://www.wimbledon.com/en_GB/about_aeltc/201205091336574569863.html


[size=+3]Continued...[/size]

Moving on to more “criteria” to discredit..

Calendar slam: New concept once money was slowly poured into tennis
Grand slam count: No one cares before 1970+ and with understandings of money markets and finance we will only see more and more records broken as more money is put on the line for our entertainment
Career slam: A poor mans version of the calendar slam, this concept was created as a PR ploy around 1988 (you guys can correct me on the details). Winning all four majors was not see the AOpen not being taken very seriously.
Golden slam: This concept was created as a PR ploy by Sports Illustrated not re in the Olympics as tennis did not even exist (as an included sport).

Olympic tennis –
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Olympic_medalists_in_tennis

1996 Olympic draw - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennis_at_the_1996_Summer_Olympics_–_Men's_Singles
1996, July men’s top 100 rankings (note how many players are missing from the Olympics) –
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Rankings/Singles.aspx?d=15.07.1996&r=1&c=#

Head to head is a complete joke. Even former number ones have said “How can Roger Federer be the greatest player of all-time if he cannot consiste
12196579-rejected-rubber-stamp.jpg
ntly beat everyone in his own time?” I laugh when I hear this as court speeds are clearly not being taken into consideration. The conversation is not about Federer v Nadal, it is about “the greatest of all-time”. No one knows the H2H of Laver v Emerson or Borg v Connors.. you would have to look that information up (as you should). Fifty years ago was 1964 during the is no best ever because we constantly need to discredit the past in order to build forward.

We cannot even compare ground strokes over generations as the training regiments have vastly changed now that tens of millions of dollars are on the table. Players in 1970 did not train the way that fast courts with sliding balls and being a true all-court player will vanish from tennis altogether.

We can only compare ground strokes of players from maybe the 1970’s going forward. Technology has simply made it easier for people to play tennis. That does not mean that the athletes of today are swinging 40mph faster than in 1980. Becker has publically stated that the serving speed of todays players is the same as during the 1980’s (and probably the 1970’s by that logic). Before 1970 we find that most players did not train very hard as tennis was not taken very seriously. Due to this history the concept of a calendar slam calling it “impossible”. Federer is the only player in the open era to even reach the final of all four majors in the same calendar year. More amazing than that feat he accomplished this THREE times and has accomplished this multiple times. This is the closest comparison to Rod Laver or slam history when reviewing records from 1925-2014.
Nadal on this topic - http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/tenni...winning-calendar-slam-impossible--tennis.html
Article on topic - http://www.tennisearth.com/news/ten...ssible-in-the-Golden-Age-of-Tennis-625603.htm
Becker speaks about this and other topics –
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17dDEOh8A4s


Conclusion – There is no GOAT as “all time” has not ended yet. We can say “the greatest player I have ever seen”..that is valid.

If we talk about the concept of a GPW (greatest player witnessed) then certain unbiased things need to be taken into account as it illustrates dominance over the sport as a whole.

Slam count – the sub categories are important as it illustrates that a player was always deep within slams
GS finals reached
GS SF reached
GS QF reached
Year’s #1
Weeks #1
Consecutive weeks #1
Masters titles
Career titles
Comparative skillset to players since 1970
Serve
Return of serve
Backhand
Forehand
Slicing
Volley
Footwork
Court awareness
Bagels?


Things that are irrelevant when talking about the "greatest player witnessed"

Olympic gold - Not taken seriously until 2004
Golden calendar/career slam

Career slam - Not very relevant as players did not aspire to win this until recently due to the AOpen's poor history. We cannot say Nadal won the AOpen/career slam so therefore he is better than Bjorn Borg.. that is idiotic.

Calendar slam - Impossible by players standards, even Laver said so

H2H - More than two players exist from 1970 until now so judging Borg on how he specifically played McEnroe is amateur and pointless when attempting to view the player as a whole.

Retirements/injuries - No need to discuss this as certain players might have been much better without injury but this is massive speculation.

Anything else?

I rank the best overall players as

Federer
Laver
Borg
Sampras

All four could hit any shot, all were famous servers and could dominate on their surfaces (except Laver as hard courts did not even exist). Overall is the big key here.

I know that this post will not squash the stupid GOAT debate but perhaps some people that knew less information will see this post over the years and gain a lot of information that they did not know before.


I just effortlessly wrote 6 pages on this topic and could have extended this to 20 if I had felt like it. It would be nice to engage in serious discussion about some of the topics that I touched on.

I will not even get into denouncing Nadal or talk about the speed of the courts destroying mens tennis..that would be another 6 pages

17861854-case-closed-red-rubber-stamp-over-a-white-background.jpg



__________________

awesome...........
 
I would just correct one thing. Before tennis went Open players in the Amateur game did not all play just for the love of the game. Many players, particularly those from poor backgrounds (Gonzales, Segura, Sedgman, Trabert, Rosewall, Hoad, Laver, to name just a few) knew that if they performed well in the Amateur tour they might get signed up as a professional, where they could make enough money for a decent living. So it wasn't just a bunch of country gentlemen playing for fun. For these guys it was deadly serious, and they were as hard as nails, even as amateurs.

The other thing was that for quite a while in the 60s, and increasingly as the decade went along, there was a lot of 'shamateurism'. Under the table payments to the top players to keep them amateur, often paid by the national tennis associations to keep good players for Davis Cup matches, and to enhance their local tournaments. It got to the point where no new blood was entering the professional circuit, so that was suffering from a lack of new talent. This, combined with increasing public disquiet at the obvious 'shamateurism' in the amateur tour, were the drivers that led to Open Tennis and all that followed.

At the time Open Tennis started there was a lot of interest to see who really were the best players in world. It had always been 'known' that the pros were the best, mainly because amateurs joining the pro circuit got beaten up until they adjusted, but there had been so little good new blood in the years before Open Tennis there was a question mark. As it happened it turned out that the pros were the best!
 
GOAT clearly just means GOATime Up Till Now but GOATUTN is a little bit too dumb. Kind of pointless to moan about there being no GOAT based on a practically worthless semantic issue. It could be called GOAET (greatest of all .. existing.. elapsed ..time.. or something) but string theorists might throw a hissy fit or some shizzle.

Nice post though, and a shame most don't go to the effort to lay out their thoughts so precisely and with such thorough attempts at logic and reason.

Also winning all the big ones is a worthy boon to one's resume, just that for someone like Borg this would have involved winning just the US Open. Winning the AO would have been unnecessary and he won the WCT finals anyway.
Referring to it as the Career Grand Slam is just a red herring. The point is that it's a great addition -- a RG title would have been a super addition for Sampras and the US Open for Borg.

I prefer to think of the greats in terms of tiers which I think is far less constricting and a bit more objective, and overall slightly less silly.

In short, standards don't transpose precisely across the whole history of tennis. Some eras were played in a different key, so to speak.
 
I appreciate the time you put in but the style left a lot to be desired. If you want someone to read a lot of words (and let's face it, for a tennis message board, this is an extended essay) you might at least try to invest more in the style department.

As far as making an argument for the redundancy of a GOAT debate, it's a fallacy to begin with. You cannot argue against something so irrational that it induces people who renounce the debate to partake in it. It's like arguing against love. You cannot take away people's love for banter.
 
Continued...


Head to head is a complete joke. Even former number ones have said “How can Roger Federer be the greatest player of all-time if he cannot consistently beat everyone in his own time?” I laugh when I hear this as court speeds are clearly not being taken into consideration. The conversation is not about Federer v Nadal, it is about “the greatest of all-time”. No one knows the H2H of Laver v Emerson or Borg v Connors.. you would have to look that information up (as you should). Fifty years ago was 1964 during the amateur era and the biggest rivalry of the day was Rod Laver vs Ken Rosewall. Two of the most significant players in tennis history. Fifty years later the vast majority of tennis fans have never heard of these people and might have seen their names referenced in the history books. No one knows jack about Rosewall’s game or how many times he played Laver and no one cares. The same will happen with the Federer v Nadal rivalry and the Nadal v Djokovic rivalry. People are thinking short-term and not understanding that in 50 years there will have been players that have came and gone that will have broken the records of Federer and Nadal. Each generation is foolish enough to think that the accolades of players of their current era will last forever and this has been proven incorrect every time. Certain records may stand the test of time, but very few. The concept of any H2H is meaningless in the grand scope of time. Federer could retire being 30-5 over Nadal or Nadal retires as 30-5 over Federer and in fifty years that will be a statistic that is scoffed at. That is not a big picture concept, not even close. Grasping at straws to make yourself believe that your guy is the best ever is delusional. There is no best ever because we constantly need to discredit the past in order to build forward.


People don't remember H2Hs for several reasons
1. H2H include 2 players not just 1 as slam counts. For example to remember H2H records of all combinations of {Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, Murray}, you'll have to memorize 12 numbers compared to just 4 if we are talking about slam counts. H2H is a quadratic function!

2. People remember what the media talk about, regardless of its importance and they talk a lot more about slam counts.

3. H2H is not a record someone would try to break, so you don't hear about it in the context of another player. For example you read about Laver's grand slam in the context of Federer trying to do it, but when or where would you read about his H2H against Rosewall in the context of an article on Federer's career?
 
Wodz, I appreciate the efforts you have gone too, you wrote up 2 big pieces trying to emphasise how the GOAT can never exist, for a whole host of reasons, but then you go and rank your personal top 4. You have essentially contradicted yourself. If you had just kept out who you think the GOATS are in your opinion and kept it neutral, then 10 out of 10.

I also believe H2H does come into it, the H2H has never been an issue in the past because no one has:

1) Dominated the slam field as much as Federer, AND yet

2) Been dominated as much by one player.

Make no mistake, this will always be an issue. Firstly for the disparity, secondly the Nadal fans will never let anyone forget.
 
WARNING: This is VERY long but very serious



I had written a 6 page paper on this topic but apparently deleted it (lack of interest).

So I will write another 6 pages on this topic.
Please don't!


I find it interesting that people keep having this "GOAT" arguing. I find it entertaining yet absolutely ********.

The concept of a GOAT is impossible. I will save everyone the trouble of using wikipedia to look up players from 1930 and will only talk about Rod Laver for a bit.

Laver and Federer are the only two players that should even be discussed when talking about the "greatest of all time".

Rod Laver won the "calendar slam" in 1969. Let us take a trip back to 1969 and look at that year. It is very important to note " concept very difficult. The first is airfare.

Transport: First we need to understand the history of transportation inflation that is $21,213 (up 534%). That means by today’s saw the sport grow larger and larger. As this happened tennis began to reach new countries like Serbia and Croatia. Any
gg60133742.jpg
aspiring star would train hard to potentially win tens of millions of dollars, but to win tens of thousands of dollars (as your peak income)? Laver did not play for the money, it was a joke. He played because he loved tennis and wanted to compete. If you main goal if profit.

The prestige: Although tennis first started back in the 1500’s the concept of the Grand Slam events was not established until 1925. This alone means that the concept of a GOAT automatically excludes everyone before 1925. Wimbledon and the French, for example, were private tournaments until 1926 although the discussion as most players cannot afford to travel the world and compete in tournaments. Tennis is still for the rich..but things are slowly changing. As prize money grows and money pours into the sport of tennis through corporate backing we see the sport grow and with the concept of winning more money we see more new talents pouring into the Pro tour to make it big. 1978 until 2014 is only 36 years. These “grand slam” trophies and historical prestige is an illusion as we have been forced to dismiss nearly 500 years of tennis history or nearly 100 years of history at Wimbledon and other tournaments.
Even during 1969 Laver did not consider himself the GOAT, he simply says he had a good year. He did not even consider himself the best player in the world during 1969.
Laver interview –
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlHhmp1UlSk
Wimbledon prize money history - http://www.wimbledon.com/en_GB/about_aeltc/201205091336574569863.html


[size=+3]Continued...[/size]

Moving on to more “criteria” to discredit..

Calendar slam: New concept once money was slowly poured into tennis
Grand slam count: No one cares before 1970+ and with understandings of money markets and finance we will only see more and more records broken as more money is put on the line for our entertainment
Career slam: A poor mans version of the calendar slam, this concept was created as a PR ploy around 1988 (you guys can correct me on the details). Winning all four majors was not see the AOpen not being taken very seriously.
Golden slam: This concept was created as a PR ploy by Sports Illustrated not re in the Olympics as tennis did not even exist (as an included sport).

Olympic tennis –
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Olympic_medalists_in_tennis

1996 Olympic draw - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennis_at_the_1996_Summer_Olympics_–_Men's_Singles
1996, July men’s top 100 rankings (note how many players are missing from the Olympics) –
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Rankings/Singles.aspx?d=15.07.1996&r=1&c=#

Head to head is a complete joke. Even former number ones have said “How can Roger Federer be the greatest player of all-time if he cannot consiste
12196579-rejected-rubber-stamp.jpg
ntly beat everyone in his own time?” I laugh when I hear this as court speeds are clearly not being taken into consideration. The conversation is not about Federer v Nadal, it is about “the greatest of all-time”. No one knows the H2H of Laver v Emerson or Borg v Connors.. you would have to look that information up (as you should). Fifty years ago was 1964 during the is no best ever because we constantly need to discredit the past in order to build forward.

We cannot even compare ground strokes over generations as the training regiments have vastly changed now that tens of millions of dollars are on the table. Players in 1970 did not train the way that fast courts with sliding balls and being a true all-court player will vanish from tennis altogether.

We can only compare ground strokes of players from maybe the 1970’s going forward. Technology has simply made it easier for people to play tennis. That does not mean that the athletes of today are swinging 40mph faster than in 1980. Becker has publically stated that the serving speed of todays players is the same as during the 1980’s (and probably the 1970’s by that logic). Before 1970 we find that most players did not train very hard as tennis was not taken very seriously. Due to this history the concept of a calendar slam calling it “impossible”. Federer is the only player in the open era to even reach the final of all four majors in the same calendar year. More amazing than that feat he accomplished this THREE times and has accomplished this multiple times. This is the closest comparison to Rod Laver or slam history when reviewing records from 1925-2014.
Nadal on this topic - http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/tenni...winning-calendar-slam-impossible--tennis.html
Article on topic - http://www.tennisearth.com/news/ten...ssible-in-the-Golden-Age-of-Tennis-625603.htm
Becker speaks about this and other topics –
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17dDEOh8A4s


Conclusion – There is no GOAT as “all time” has not ended yet. We can say “the greatest player I have ever seen”..that is valid.

If we talk about the concept of a GPW (greatest player witnessed) then certain unbiased things need to be taken into account as it illustrates dominance over the sport as a whole.

Slam count – the sub categories are important as it illustrates that a player was always deep within slams
GS finals reached
GS SF reached
GS QF reached
Year’s #1
Weeks #1
Consecutive weeks #1
Masters titles
Career titles
Comparative skillset to players since 1970
Serve
Return of serve
Backhand
Forehand
Slicing
Volley
Footwork
Court awareness
Bagels?


Things that are irrelevant when talking about the "greatest player witnessed"

Olympic gold - Not taken seriously until 2004
Golden calendar/career slam

Career slam - Not very relevant as players did not aspire to win this until recently due to the AOpen's poor history. We cannot say Nadal won the AOpen/career slam so therefore he is better than Bjorn Borg.. that is idiotic.

Calendar slam - Impossible by players standards, even Laver said so

H2H - More than two players exist from 1970 until now so judging Borg on how he specifically played McEnroe is amateur and pointless when attempting to view the player as a whole.

Retirements/injuries - No need to discuss this as certain players might have been much better without injury but this is massive speculation.

Anything else?

I rank the best overall players as

Federer
Laver
Borg
Sampras

All four could hit any shot, all were famous servers and could dominate on their surfaces (except Laver as hard courts did not even exist). Overall is the big key here.

I know that this post will not squash the stupid GOAT debate but perhaps some people that knew less information will see this post over the years and gain a lot of information that they did not know before.


I just effortlessly wrote 6 pages on this topic and could have extended this to 20 if I had felt like it. It would be nice to engage in serious discussion about some of the topics that I touched on.

I will not even get into denouncing Nadal or talk about the speed of the courts destroying mens tennis..that would be another 6 pages

17861854-case-closed-red-rubber-stamp-over-a-white-background.jpg



__________________

I lololololololed
 
I would just correct one thing. Before tennis went Open players in the Amateur game did not all play just for the love of the game. Many players, particularly those from poor backgrounds (Gonzales, Segura, Sedgman, Trabert, Rosewall, Hoad, Laver, to name just a few) knew that if they performed well in the Amateur tour they might get signed up as a professional, where they could make enough money for a decent living. So it wasn't just a bunch of country gentlemen playing for fun. For these guys it was deadly serious, and they were as hard as nails, even as amateurs.

The other thing was that for quite a while in the 60s, and increasingly as the decade went along, there was a lot of 'shamateurism'. Under the table payments to the top players to keep them amateur, often paid by the national tennis associations to keep good players for Davis Cup matches, and to enhance their local tournaments. It got to the point where no new blood was entering the professional circuit, so that was suffering from a lack of new talent. This, combined with increasing public disquiet at the obvious 'shamateurism' in the amateur tour, were the drivers that led to Open Tennis and all that followed.

At the time Open Tennis started there was a lot of interest to see who really were the best players in world. It had always been 'known' that the pros were the best, mainly because amateurs joining the pro circuit got beaten up until they adjusted, but there had been so little good new blood in the years before Open Tennis there was a question mark. As it happened it turned out that the pros were the best!


This is great information! These are the types of responses that we should be seeing here. Discussing tennis history. The point is to be discussing the concept and criteria of this "GOAT" concept and not talking about who is better than who.
 
This is great information! These are the types of responses that we should be seeing here. Discussing tennis history. The point is to be discussing the concept and criteria of this "GOAT" concept and not talking about who is better than who.

Bingo..very well said.
Oh btw, this is what you said in the OP
"Laver and Federer are the only two players that should even be discussed when talking about the "greatest of all time".

ROFL
 
Wodz, I appreciate the efforts you have gone too, you wrote up 2 big pieces trying to emphasise how the GOAT can never exist, for a whole host of reasons, but then you go and rank your personal top 4. You have essentially contradicted yourself. If you had just kept out who you think the GOATS are in your opinion and kept it neutral, then 10 out of 10.

I also believe H2H does come into it, the H2H has never been an issue in the past because no one has:

1) Dominated the slam field as much as Federer, AND yet

2) Been dominated as much by one player.

Make no mistake, this will always be an issue. Firstly for the disparity, secondly the Nadal fans will never let anyone forget.


I was listing who I think are the top most complete tennis players as the "best overall players" which has to do with overall skill set and ability. Call it a "favorite player" list if you want but certainly not a "GOAT" list. In no way was I suggesting that Laver is second GOAT and so on :)


If anything I was looking for a fun platform to discredit the GOAT debate entirely as the concept does not make sense due to the ludicrous criteria that people attempt to include. Only a few people have been able to see my overall point whereas most are nitpicking on very specific points.

A thread like this is nice because it can help show people here that maybe the Olympic gold is not as historically prestigious as people assume and that people like Laver and Borg are being discredited from this criteria since the Olympic event did not even exist. It renders this specific debate moot and people should stop attempting to include this and most other criteria.
 
I read the whole OP's post and found it fascinating! I was ignoring this thread looking at the title. Thought it would be another brainless goat thread. Almost missed reading it. We need more good posts like this which enrich our knowledge of tennis history.
I couldn't agree more.

But it's disappointing (although not unexpected) that posters are not only being rude and disrespectful to the OP, but also trying to discredit him and the research he has done. Even BobbyOne, who is about as knowledgeable as anyone here, could not resist sticking in the odd barb.

But that's TT for you. I hope it hasn't put the OP off too much and that he will continue to contribute.
 
LOL. I thought Dedans wrote this. No wonder it has all the 'REJECTED' images etc in it.. I couldn't make sense of them at the time.

Shows how dangerous it can be to just scan read threads (there are a lot of threads around).

I'll pay some proper attention to that lengthy OP later as I haven't given the content a full and thorough read yet.
 
I couldn't agree more.

But it's disappointing (although not unexpected) that posters are not only being rude and disrespectful to the OP, but also trying to discredit him and the research he has done. Even BobbyOne, who is about as knowledgeable as anyone here, could not resist sticking in the odd barb.

But that's TT for you. I hope it hasn't put the OP off too much and that he will continue to contribute.

Virginia, Thanks for your praising word. I was not nasty to the OP. I just found flaws in his impressive postings. I had not have the time to response to his answer.
 
There are flaws in my post.. this is not the New York Times and I did not even bother reviewing or editing the post lol

I should not have mentioned personal opinions about Laver or Federer as it confused some people. Either way it is fun to discredit the concept of a GOAT by breaking down the purported criteria that is often floated around. This was meant to be a discussion.. not a lecture lol
 
- Thanks for taking the time to read this and give insightful responses!


Of course I know that there was a Pro tour before the Open Era. I think you just miss my point and that I was focusing on the fact that players were not playing tennis to get rich. There was no prize money in the amateur circuit which included the 4 Grand Slam events. If financially all of the amateur tournaments paid zero then winning Wimbledon was not very important compared to today where you would win 2 million. The point of this was that players were not going out there trying to win the “Grand Slam” and were not trying to win as many slams as possible. These are not my words, Laver himself has made this very clear. Since the topic was regarding Grand Slams there was no need to talk about the Pro circuit pre 1968. Thanks for bringing this up either way.

Of course players on the PROFESSIONAL tour took it seriously but the 4 Grand Slam events were not part of the professional tour so there is no need to keep discussing this. The slams that exist today and have existed for such a long time were part of the amateur tour. After Laver won the Grand Slam in 1969 what monumental activity do we see in the ATP before Connors and Borg start dominating? Do we see any activity that has absolutely anything to do with the conversation of GOAT’s? No

Valid correction. How many HC Grand Slams did Rod Laver win? Zero, which was my main point. People push Nadal as the GOAT because he won Slams on 3 surfaces.. and that is a new concept with the inception of hard courts.

We can revise that and say Decugis won 8 titles during the French only era. The same goes for Wimbledon. As the tournament was not considered a Grand Slam event until 1925 then officially Decugis would not count. Not disagreeing with you here 

I was directly quoting Rod Laver. I am having trouble finding exactly what he said but he talked about during 1969 winning all four slams in one year he felt he had “a good year” as opposed to being the best in the world. Laver is very humble. After his first slam he said it was a great honor to be in the same club as Don Budge. I am only going by things that I have heard Laver say directly. He was by far the best player in 1969.

You misunderstand what I said. “Calendar slam: New concept once money was slowly poured into tennis” I am talking very specifically about the importance of the Calendar Slam not the concept of winning it. “who wants to it it. But its amateur tennis, so no one was really high on the list as saying I’ve got to win this tournament for my career, there was no career”. - Rod Laver talking about the Grand Slam titles - Players from 1925 to 1968 (for example) were not going out there in the amateur days and saying “my goal is to win all four majors in a calendar year”. I doubt we can find a quote of Don Budge saying that his goal was to win all four majors that year. This point here is that the concept of going out and winning all four slams in a calendar year is a new CONCEPT.. it has been sitting there for a very long time but no one really cared.. because it was amateur tennis.. as Rod Laver has stated over and over.

Roddick is considered one of the best servers in history. He has a very poor H2H in Federer and lost in GS finals when it counted the most. Roddick is not in the conversation for greatest player so what relevance does it have that Federer beat him over and over and how does that help compare Roddick to say John McEnroe?

Take Djokovic of today and beam him back to 1930 and put him against player X. Djokovic is a heavily trained professional athlete. Take the player of 1930 and beam him into tennis today and he cannot compete. The further back we go the further we see incomparable differences in the sport that do not allow us to evaluate different players. The same is unfortunately true when we talk about the significance of winning each event of the course of history since 1925. We cannot say “Nadal is the GOAT because he won the career slam and barely anyone else did” because when did people start trying to set out and actually accomplish this?
Federer AND Laver reached the finals of all open era GS tournaments in the same calendar year.
I covered that as I had already mentioned that Laver on the Grand Slam in 69. I never stated “Federer is the ONLY player to reach the finals of all”.. maybe you did not read everything I wrote lol (UNDERSTANDABLE! Haha)

So Borg and Sampras would be in the conversation having a combined zero AOpen titles? I am happy that you are naming other people.. that is what I want people to do.. have serious conversations about a real topic.

Wodz, Thanks for you answer. I'm sorry to have not replied earlier.

Every amateur player wanted to win the GS tournaments even if they did not care too much about counting them.

They yet were trying to make the Grand Slam: Hoad and others.

I don't believe you that Laver in 1962 was not trying to achieve that biggest feat. In his book of 1963 "How to play winning tennis" he explained how it was his goal to win the GS.

The amateur GS tournaments were taken very seriously!

Laver after winning the 1969 GS was discussed as GOAT and considered by many experts as being GOAT.

Laver's "1969 a good year" just tells his humbleness as a person.

Laver of course considers his 1969 Slam higher than his 1962 Slam!

Budge's gaol for 1938 was to win the Grand Slam.

Hth is important for any great player's resume.

Only you discredit the past ( plus some other experts of modern tennis) True experts know about the greatness of Tilden, Gonzalez, Rosewall and so on...

Sorry I must contradict you so often. But thanks for your efforts and reflecting.
 
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