Going from defense to offense.

[TimeToPlaySets]

I have been practicing a specific point pattern that involves going from defense to offense.
I will post a video example of this later tonight.

When the ball comes to my (lefty) BH, instead of attacking, I hit more of a girl's rally ball.
If I am standing near point B or C, I will hit a high arcing lob-like BH to the yellow spot area to his FH.
Ideally, it lands deep, and bounces high.
Yes, I am hitting to his FH, but this is more reliable than going DTL, and takes the net out of play.
I am now all about high percentage shots from the baseline.

Instead of recovering to point A, I will hover around point B.
The logic is that he will probably hit it back CC.
Staying at B gives me more room to hit my FH.
When he does return CC, I am now hitting FH, and hit to his BH around the green spot area.

I have now gone from hitting BH into hitting FH (to his BH)
I am now the dictator looking to generate a short ball.

The trade-off is this:
If I return to point A, I can cover a DTL FH.
However, I may then have to hit a CC return with my BH, and remain weaker.
If I stay at B, the downside is not covering a DTL return.

I will be testing this out, and seeing if the opponent can hit a running DTL FH.
If he can't, or prefers CC returns, then I will safely wait at B in order to play my FH to green.

 

[Carefree]

Rally ball cross court
Run around forehand when/if possible
Wait for those balls to go DTL with.

Wardlaw directionals.

I don't know if you previously thought that "A" was the recovery position after going cross court, but it's not.

Good luck.

 

[LeeD]

From C to yellow circle, somewhere between B and C is the ready position, with your momentum heading towards B.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Rally ball cross court
Run around forehand when/if possible
Wait for those balls to go DTL with.

Wardlaw directionals.

I don't know if you previously thought that "A" was the recovery position after going cross court, but it's not.

Good luck.

When I get a FH, and I do not hit it inside-out, is that called DTL to the BH (From B/C to Green spot) ?
It's not CC since I am on the right side, and am aiming to the right side.

Basically, it sounds like I am doing it right.
I stick to CC rally unless I get a very short ball to go DTL.
Otherwise, CC rally and try to run around to my FH.

 

[SinjinCooper]

When I get a FH, and I do not hit it inside-out, is that called DTL to the BH (From B/C to Green spot) ?

That is an inside FH.

In general, if you have to move out further to the side in order to create a forehand opportunity, you want to hit it I/O. If you can hit it with minimal or no lateral movement, changing the direction of the rally ball becomes the percentage play and hitting an inside FH (or "hitting it inside-in") is indicated.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Right, if I can just barely run around it, I'm going to hit it late, and it's easier to do IO.
If I have plenty of time, or not even running around it, then I can hit it on the "outside" (in front and early), and change direction.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

I need to get the Wardlaw taxonomy down.

Do I have this right?

Does not cross body = inside = change direction
Crosses body = outside = CC rally ball (Same direction)
Applies to both FH & BH ?

Wait, this means you always hit a stroke in the same direction for both inside and outside.

Would it not be simpler to just think (for righty)
1) Hit FH to Left
1) Hit BH to Right

 

[fundrazer]

You finally have some understanding that "center" isn't a static position, great! I explained this in a reply to one of your threads a few weeks ago.

I don't think you should be approaching point construction as some flowchart though. Yeah some guidelines are good to help remind you how safe a shot is, but I think ideally you want to develop an actual feel for how to play out a point, not flowchart tennis.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Obviously I am talking about guidelines and not rigid flowcharts.
Do you think I am just sitting here typing this stuff in a vacuum?
I have played points 6 days a week for the last 8 weeks.

 

[Traffic]

I have been practicing a specific point pattern that involves going from defense to offense.
I will post a video example of this later tonight.

When the ball comes to my (lefty) BH, instead of attacking, I hit more of a girl's rally ball.
If I am standing near point B or C, I will hit a high arcing lob-like BH to the yellow spot area to his FH.
Ideally, it lands deep, and bounces high.
Yes, I am hitting to his FH, but this is more reliable than going DTL, and takes the net out of play.
I am now all about high percentage shots from the baseline.

Instead of recovering to point A, I will hover around point B.
The logic is that he will probably hit it back CC.
Staying at B gives me more room to hit my FH.
When he does return CC, I am now hitting FH, and hit to his BH around the green spot area.

I have now gone from hitting BH into hitting FH (to his BH)
I am now the dictator looking to generate a short ball.

The trade-off is this:
If I return to point A, I can cover a DTL FH.
However, I may then have to hit a CC return with my BH, and remain weaker.
If I stay at B, the downside is not covering a DTL return.

I will be testing this out, and seeing if the opponent can hit a running DTL FH.
If he can't, or prefers CC returns, then I will safely wait at B in order to play my FH to green.

Let's just assume you and I are similar levels. Actually, your basic strokes look pretty good. My only question is how is it during a pressure match situation. But that's another topic.

I play a lot with my Lefty son so I am rather used to hitting against a lefty. Though his backhand is every bit as good as his forehand except...his BH has a touch more power but his FH has a touch more control. Again, it doesn't matter since he can crush me either wing. So he doesn't run around his BH to hit a FH. But let's say he did...

If you were to hit your FH to my FH from B to Yellow, it seems like it's a tougher shot for you since you are hitting and inside-out FH. In which case, I will know that you don't like to hit your BH and I will return it CC to your BH. Even if you are only moving slightly to get into B position, you still have to change direction to run around the ball again or risk hitting your girly BH. I will probably keep doing this until you can show me a DTL shot. If any of your returns are a little short, I will hit DTL to make you move and then come to the net.

The safer shot would be to hit from B to T with a more conventional FH for the higher percentage shot. If you were going to risk veering away from high percent shot to put pressure on me, a more DTL shot would be better. That forces me to hit a good BH. Most likely I will hit it CC into your FH allowing you a chance to take control of the point. You hit it CC to my BH again causing me to change directions as I'm moving back to the T and trying to hit a weaker shot.

If you pull that off, I'll do one of 4 things: 1) Hit a slice to the T to buy time to reset, 2) Hit a TS shot to the T for a safe shot with a bit of pace, 3) Go for a TS winner DTL, 4) Racquet clap your sharp hit to my BH corner. You have a 3 in 4 chance that you either win the point on stay in control of the point.

For me, the first 3 scenarios, I have a 1) A 3.5 probably can't do much with a slice lob back to baseline, 2) A TS back to the T may be tough to do anything with as it will jam you if you try for a FH, 3) Cause a very weak return that I can approach and then finish at net.

 

[SinjinCooper]

You finally have some understanding that "center" isn't a static position, great! I explained this in a reply to one of your threads a few weeks ago.

I don't think you should be approaching point construction as some flowchart though. Yeah some guidelines are good to help remind you how safe a shot is, but I think ideally you want to develop an actual feel for how to play out a point, not flowchart tennis.

Flowchart is ideal until you're good enough to execute well and consistently while making lower percentage and/or out of position choices.

That happens a lot later than rec players want to accept. There's not a 4.5 alive who won't be better if he sticks with the percentage play.

Deviations only start paying dividends as you hit open level.

 

[Traffic]

Flowchart is ideal until you're good enough to execute well and consistently while making lower percentage and/or out of position choices.

That happens a lot later than rec players want to accept. There's not a 4.5 alive who won't be better if he sticks with the percentage play.

Deviations only start paying dividends as you hit open level.

I agree that we need to hit high percentage shots. We try for the glory shots that work 2 out of 3 shots rather than go for the safer shots that yield 4 out of 5 shots. Heck, at this level, it's tough to even return 4 out of 5 shots in general. So maybe that's what compels us to hit the "low" percent shots.

I do know that when I play against my son, safe shots will only yield a win for him. He can keep the point going 15+ hits. So I will always lose the war of consistency. So I have to create the point by putting pressure on him with every hit. If I can't close the point inside of 4 hits, my chance of winning the point goes down exponentially.

 

[FightMeAtTheNet]

I thought this was a good summary of directionals and basic tactics.

http://saratogaspringstennis.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Wardlaw-Directionals1.pdf

Interesting quote from the article:

The first step in becoming a tactical player is learning how to hit outside ground strokes with the emphasis on patience, placement, depth, spin, and pace in this order

Basically minimize your errors by hitting cross court (whether inside or outside strokes). Only hit change-of-direction shots when pushed on a defensive position or on short balls when attacking (at least be standing 3/4ths of the way into the court upon contact).

 

[kiteboard]

Mistakes are made due to two issues mainly: losing an anchor point, mistiming incoming ball height/distance from your body.

Anchor point #1 is: planting sideways early on, so your weight transfer and timing can be consistent.
Anchor point #2 is: keeping the leading/forward shoulder down, whether it's the hitting shoulder or not, so your timing on incoming ball height can be consistent. An open shoulder up leads to long shots. A neutral shoulder leads to opening it too soon.

Incoming ball height, ie, a low ball, demands you let it come into your body center more, rather than out front too much, or you will smother it into the net. Neutral ball height, demands you take it neutrally out front, so you don't smother it or hit it long, due to the arch of your hitting arm swing path, is curved and semi circular; HIgh ball height demands you take it out front, so you don't hit long.

The small part of the ball you are aiming for must be felt as a part of timing, ahead of the shot being hit, so you feel and aim for that small part way ahead of time, so your timing and placement are consistent. So whenever you miss, it's due to a combination of these issues. Either you lost a shoulder point, or a plant, or lost the part of the ball aimed for, or mistimed incoming height.

Every time you lose, it's mainly due to those issues, you ran into someone who could make you lose those points. Either they jam you by running you emergency wise, or by ball speed/height changing after the bounce, or get to your mental balance.

 

[samarai]

this is my advice. u are a lefty. pound the ball to his backhand the firt chance u get. most righties are gonna have a hard time hitting down the line with their backhand, they are better going cross court. u keep pounding to their backhand until u get an error or a short ball u can put away. Thats how the lefties at 3.5 and 4.0 win around here.

 

[Traffic]

this is my advice. u are a lefty. pound the ball to his backhand the firt chance u get. most righties are gonna have a hard time hitting down the line with their backhand, they are better going cross court. u keep pounding to their backhand until u get an error or a short ball u can put away. Thats how the lefties at 3.5 and 4.0 win around here.

THIS is what you need to practice. Forget flow charts. Pound a Righty's BH until they prove they can nail a DTL shot.

Oh wait...scratch the "POUND". Hit safe shots to their BH with loopy topspin. Repeat. Repeat.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

This is exactly what I've been practicing.
Just hit everything to BH.
Only time I don't is when I am at extreme right (point C)


Phase 1: Safe rally ball. Hit it high & deep. No winners. Just wait for short ball.
Phase 2: Short ball. Run around to FH, if needed. Hit it to his BH.
Phase 3: Volley (Often moot, since phase 2 wins the point)

 

[Carefree]

When I get a FH, and I do not hit it inside-out, is that called DTL to the BH (From B/C to Green spot) ?
It's not CC since I am on the right side, and am aiming to the right side.

Basically, it sounds like I am doing it right.
I stick to CC rally unless I get a very short ball to go DTL.
Otherwise, CC rally and try to run around to my FH.

When you run around your forehand, if you go back CC, it's inside out. If you go DTL, it's inside in. That's just the terminology.

You have it right, don't need to overthink it.

This drill is just the combination of a couple of different shot selection strategies.

1. Keep the ball cross court until you get something you can attack.
+
2. Try to hit more forehands than backhands

If you want to go deeper down the rabbit hole:

 

[mcs1970]

Best way to go from defense to offense:

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Let's just assume you and I are similar levels. Actually, your basic strokes look pretty good. My only question is how is it during a pressure match situation. But that's another topic.

I play a lot with my Lefty son so I am rather used to hitting against a lefty. Though his backhand is every bit as good as his forehand except...his BH has a touch more power but his FH has a touch more control. Again, it doesn't matter since he can crush me either wing. So he doesn't run around his BH to hit a FH. But let's say he did...

If you were to hit your FH to my FH from B to Yellow, it seems like it's a tougher shot for you since you are hitting and inside-out FH. In which case, I will know that you don't like to hit your BH and I will return it CC to your BH. Even if you are only moving slightly to get into B position, you still have to change direction to run around the ball again or risk hitting your girly BH. I will probably keep doing this until you can show me a DTL shot. If any of your returns are a little short, I will hit DTL to make you move and then come to the net.

The safer shot would be to hit from B to T with a more conventional FH for the higher percentage shot. If you were going to risk veering away from high percent shot to put pressure on me, a more DTL shot would be better. That forces me to hit a good BH. Most likely I will hit it CC into your FH allowing you a chance to take control of the point. You hit it CC to my BH again causing me to change directions as I'm moving back to the T and trying to hit a weaker shot.

If you pull that off, I'll do one of 4 things: 1) Hit a slice to the T to buy time to reset, 2) Hit a TS shot to the T for a safe shot with a bit of pace, 3) Go for a TS winner DTL, 4) Racquet clap your sharp hit to my BH corner. You have a 3 in 4 chance that you either win the point on stay in control of the point.

For me, the first 3 scenarios, I have a 1) A 3.5 probably can't do much with a slice lob back to baseline, 2) A TS back to the T may be tough to do anything with as it will jam you if you try for a FH, 3) Cause a very weak return that I can approach and then finish at net.

Just to clarify, if I am at B and get a FH, I am not hitting to your FH.
I am hitting everything to your BH (green spot)
The only time I hit inside/out FH is if it's a VERY short ball (At the T) and I have an easy winner to open court (your FH) you can't touch.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

You have it right, don't need to overthink it.

1. Keep the ball cross court until you get something you can attack.
+
2. Try to hit more forehands than backhands

Yes, this is basically what I am working on now.
No need to go past this.

If his BH hits CC to my FH, I just hit it CC right to his BH again.
If his FH hits CC to my BH, I hit a loopy BH to his FH, and hope to get a CC shot that I can take with my FH (to his BH)

That is pretty much all I want to think about for baseline rally balls to generate a short ball.

 

[Traffic]

Just to clarify, if I am at B and get a FH, I am not hitting to your FH.
I am hitting everything to your BH (green spot)
The only time I hit inside/out FH is if it's a VERY short ball (At the T) and I have an easy winner to open court (your FH) you can't touch.

I think that's a great strategy. But it is a lower percentage shot than the T. If you can make DTL work, good on you.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

When the ball comes to my (lefty) BH, instead of attacking, I hit more of a girl's rally ball.

you clearly have never hit with a good girl..... they rally/attack just fine up through the 5.0 (men's) level

overall a good point pattern... works for righty too... often i'm forget i'm on defense, and tend to drive the ball back either cc or middle court (taking time away from myself), but because i'm so out of position, it makes it easier for them to hit a next shot winner.

great 5.0+ all really excel at recognizing and throwing up a deep defensive lob (fh or bh).

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

often i'm forget i'm on defense, and tend to drive the ball back either cc or middle court (taking time away from myself), but because i'm so out of position, it makes it easier for them to hit a next shot winner.
great 5.0+ all really excel at recognizing and throwing up a deep defensive lob (fh or bh).

The guy I take lessons from really really harps on this.
When pulled wide, I used to try to attack it. (barely clears net, stupid low % shot)
He would just drop shot it ot pop it to the other side of the court for an easy winner.
Obviously, I am so out of position it is impossible for me to get to it.

I now am trained to hit a defensive moonball when pulled wide.
Defensive lob, buy yourself time, recover to center.

 

[Traffic]

The guy I take lessons from really really harps on this.
When pulled wide, I used to try to attack it. (barely clears net, stupid low % shot)
He would just drop shot it ot pop it to the other side of the court for an easy winner.
Obviously, I am so out of position it is impossible for me to get to it.

I now am trained to hit a defensive moonball when pulled wide.
Defensive lob, buy yourself time, recover to center.

So this goes back to the OP regarding going from defense to offense.
If you are running around your BH or should I say, if you have the time to run around your BH to hit a FH, it seems like you are not in a defensive position. Maybe because your lower confidence in your BH causes it to be a defensive situation?

I consider a defensive situation where the ball was hit hard, deep and angled. I barely have enough time to put my racquet on the ball.

If the ball is low, I would hit a 2HBH aiming somewhere between T and CC. If I'm a little late, then a good chance it'll be more DTL.
If the ball is high, a slice lob to buy me time.
If it's a desperation lunge, then I'm just trying to block the ball with a lob to buy me time and hoping it's deep enough so it's not an OH opportunity.

 

[Morch Us]

Really? You are learning these basics after reaching 3.0? Maybe time to read ANY basic book about tennis. Any such book will tell you that recovery position is NOT the middle of the court.

A good 3.0 opponent wont go and hit to your forehand, except when he has a chance to attack. He will do right back to C, if he want to rally one more to see if you give a bit more shorter ball to him. If he think he can do a slight more, he may try to take you out of balance by going a bit more cross court angle to your backhand. If he really think he can attack, he will hit a good approach shot to your forehand dtl, and get you on hitting a stretching forehand.

That being said, yes, definitely cash in on the opponent mistake giving you an easy forehand. But that is not a plan for defense to offense, just cashing in on mistake from opponent.

Instead of recovering to point A, I will hover around point B.

When he does return CC, I am now hitting FH, and hit to his BH around the green spot area.

If I return to point A, I can cover a DTL FH.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

So this goes back to the OP regarding going from defense to offense.
If you are running around your BH or should I say, if you have the time to run around your BH to hit a FH, it seems like you are not in a defensive position. Maybe because your lower confidence in your BH causes it to be a defensive situation?

I consider a defensive situation where the ball was hit hard, deep and angled. I barely have enough time to put my racquet on the ball.

If the ball is low, I would hit a 2HBH aiming somewhere between T and CC. If I'm a little late, then a good chance it'll be more DTL.
If the ball is high, a slice lob to buy me time.
If it's a desperation lunge, then I'm just trying to block the ball with a lob to buy me time and hoping it's deep enough so it's not an OH opportunity.

No, a high bouncing deep ball hit to my BH is what I call defensive.
The point is that I am not attacking a short ball FH here
Rather, I just return this CC to his FH by hitting a high deep lob (high %)

The NEXT ball I receive is what I call neutral, once that I can run around to my FH.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Here is a sample of my first day trying this out.
I'm basically trying to get a short FH to drive to the BH

 

[ttgrinder]

At higher levels, folks deviate from basics, by learning specific shots, and taking calculated risks. Look at how Federer(and Dimitrov) forced Nadal to change up the familiar patterns by hitting that DTL backhand, in Australian open this year. Is it low percentage? Definitely, yes, for normal folks. Was that effective? Extremely. Can a mortal do it? Sure, but with a lot of practice doing the specific shot.

I agree that it is basic intelligence to rally cross court. But in the case of a lefty vs righty, cross court is forehand vs backhand. You better be the guy doing forehand, or have a back up plan to get out of that rally. I also agree that most folks at lower levels always forgets the basics, and hit to wherever the court is slightly open all the time, there by loosing their rally advantage. So based on how the opponent is playing, you need have to have different plans. I would think at 3.5 your plan should work well.

I have been practicing a specific point pattern

 

[Traffic]

Here is a sample of my first day trying this out.
I'm basically trying to get a short FH to drive to the BH

Thanks for the video. It really helps illustrate the scenario you were describing.

I think it's always good to learn ways to create your shot. If a shallow FH to opponents backhand is going to be your goto shot, then definitely should practice how to lead up to that shot.

My only thought would be that if you hit your loopy backhand to your opponent's FH, and if your opponent is similar level, and assuming they don't spazz hit the ball out of the court or into the net, wouldn't you expect a TS lob or loopy FH return that could put you in more trouble? I suppose if you are able to TS lob or loopy FH rally, you can bide your time for him to make a mistake with a short ball.

But I would not give you a short CC ball to hit if you returned a loopy ball to my FH. Most likely wait until the ball is in my strike zone and hit a TS FH DTL. Many times that would lead to YOU hitting a short ball that I would put away. Just saying...

 

[samarai]

when u were on the ad side serving. u got a short ball ran in and hit straight to him, u have to go down the line with that shot, why would u hit it directly to him. Pounding the the opponents backhand doesnt mean thats the only shot you do.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Prior to this, I would typically try to smash the BH and try to hit a winner.

So, what I am doing is keeping myself in the rally, so I will hit a defensive lob for balls that push me back.
The point of the lob is that it will not be in your strike zone. You either need to short hop it, or let it bounce high.

What will I get in return?
1) Spazz smash into the back fence.
2) Spazz smash into the net.
3) CC return to my BH (to which I will just repeat the defensive lob BH)
4) Short hop FH winner DTL.

At 3.5, I am happy to test the opponent to show me he can do #4.
If he can't, then I do this for the entire match.

At the least, I expect this to win me more points than just trying to hit a BH winner from behind the baseline (spazz 3.5)

 

[Deleted member 688153]

I'm not big on overthinking this stuff. I'm much too impatient and have too many better things to do with my time to be out there pushing and playing very high percentage shots all the time. I'll blast the ball more if I just want to have fun and potentially make some great shots, and if I just want to win at all costs I'll play it a bit safer. Going for it has never hurt me much though. It's all about confidence. Hitting with confidence is 90% of the difference between the ball landing on the line or out.

 

[Deleted member 688153]

Maybe I just don't play well on the defensive though. I say that because I definitely don't.

 

[fundrazer]

Here is a sample of my first day trying this out.
I'm basically trying to get a short FH to drive to the BH

Find a better partner for these videos, because this looks like the same guy from your other videos and he barely moves at all. Your "defensive" shots don't even look too hard to deal with, but he just gives the ball back to you on silver platter.

I can't really see how high the ball gets on him, but he should have more than enough time to set up for a half decent shot, instead he literally does nothing with the ball.

 

[Traffic]

Find a better partner for these videos, because this looks like the same guy from your other videos and he barely moves at all. Your "defensive" shots don't even look too hard to deal with, but he just gives the ball back to you on silver platter.

I can't really see how high the ball gets on him, but he should have more than enough time to set up for a half decent shot, instead he literally does nothing with the ball.

I just thought his partner (be it a friend or a coach) is hitting the shots for TTPS to practice the aforementioned shot(s).

 

[Traffic]

Prior to this, I would typically try to smash the BH and try to hit a winner.

So, what I am doing is keeping myself in the rally, so I will hit a defensive lob for balls that push me back.
The point of the lob is that it will not be in your strike zone. You either need to short hop it, or let it bounce high.

What will I get in return?
1) Spazz smash into the back fence.
2) Spazz smash into the net.
3) CC return to my BH (to which I will just repeat the defensive lob BH)
4) Short hop FH winner DTL.

At 3.5, I am happy to test the opponent to show me he can do #4.
If he can't, then I do this for the entire match.

At the least, I expect this to win me more points than just trying to hit a BH winner from behind the baseline (spazz 3.5)

I think it's good to have a strategy. That's where my son is. Up until recently, he just hits the ball (very well mind you). But as he's climbing higher in the rankings, he's having to put strategy together to build his shots.

The shot you are practicing (FH near service line) is a money shot for me. But I have to build the shots to that point. It typically involves me hitting a deep/short/angled shot. Basically move my opponent off the baseline where his strength is and get him to hit a shot that he doesn't like. My biggest problem is to reset myself when the shot doesn't materialize. Being lazy and getting caught in no-man's land sucks.

 

[ttgrinder]

Yep. Not too easy to have the reset, restart and rebuild mindset, especially when after you did all the hard work to set up your pattern with multiple shots only to see that advantage turned to neutral by possibly a lucky mishit from opponent. And then wont have the mindset or patience to accept the fact that it is neutral again, and reset, restart and rebuild. Happens to me all the time. Luckily I am not too bad at maintaining the advantage, till finish of the point, and so I don't end up in that reset condition that often.

My biggest problem is to reset myself when the shot doesn't materialize

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

when u were on the ad side serving. u got a short ball ran in and hit straight to him, u have to go down the line with that shot, why would u hit it directly to him. Pounding the the opponents backhand doesnt mean thats the only shot you do.

I tend to overestimate the gap where opponent is not.
Too often, I misjudge, and he just takes a few steps and hits his FH.
So, for now, I was practicing the approach shot to his BH, so I stuck with it.

Your "defensive" shots don't even look too hard to deal with,

My defensive shots are not offensive shots, they are defensive.
That's kinod of the point. They are not supposed to be hard to return, since I am on the defensive.
I am simply expecting a CC return from him that I can run around to FH.
If he hits DTL consistently, then I will adjust.

I just thought his partner (be it a friend or a coach) is hitting the shots for TTPS to practice the aforementioned shot(s).

Correct. Just reinforcing the pattern.

 

[mad dog1]

Here is a sample of my first day trying this out.
I'm basically trying to get a short FH to drive to the BH

nice. you are improving!

i watched your serves and i don't see where your left leg is kicking back. in your pinpoint vs platform stance thread, it sounded like you had this problem licked.

 

[mcs1970]

@TTPS...if you are consistently moving in on the short ball as shown on the video, you are doing the right thing.

Just something to consider though... patterns are fine when playing players your own level. However, in most matches, at all levels, it comes down to who can impose their strengths more during a particular match. When I play with players around my levels patterns work fine, because strengths are also pretty similar. I play a 5.0, and the first weak CC to either side gets answered with a DTL cannon blast. Point over. Actually, it's not even weak as much as it's weak to a 5.0. So it comes down to not only patterns but also developing weapons that can trouble even advanced players. Along with strategy, try to develop some weapons and then figure out how to maximize court positions where you can consistently use your weapons. Don't categorize all power shots as 'spazz hits'. You need to work on those too than just belittle 3.5 players who go for their shots, even if they're missing a ton at this stage in their progression. That'll help you as you move up and play better players down the road. If you don't, then you will be left behind. Those 3.5 players you are belittling today are the ones moving up and troubling 4.0s, than someone who got past the 3.5 level with just softer hits and patterned play.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Weapons? I can power spazz with the best of them.
But, this exercise is all about developing feel and control.

Stage 1: Deep rally balls to eventually generate a short ball.
Stage 2: Approach shot. Deep and angled. Or DTL if very short ball.
Stage 3: Volley.

That IS a weapon.

I am not power spazzing from the baseline anymore.
Just rally balls trying to generate the short ball.

Approach shot? I've learned to hit the approach at 50%, not 100%.
Normally, I would just power spazz that shot and either hit an untouchable winner, or hit the fence, or hit the net.
Last guy I hit with took a 100% swing when he was 2 feet from the net. BAM! NET!
I was outside the doubles alley on the other side and he lost the point.
Anyone can hit hard. Moving up from 3.5 involves being more consistent, not hitting harder.

I feel I am the one moving up with a playbook (even if it only has one play)
compared to the power spazz 3.5 who simply continues to power spazz
(and then bunt/push when they keep missing)

However, to have a play in your playbook,
you first need to have a playbook in the first place and then drill it.
This is just one step.

This thread and video are just about one specific pattern.
I have spent time drilling the inside out FH and DTL BH, as well.
In point play, I might slice it back, hit I/O, drop shot, whatever.

 

[mcs1970]

I am not power spazzing from the baseline anymore.
Just rally balls trying to generate the short ball.

Approach shot? I've learned to hit the approach at 50%, not 100%.
Normally, I would just power spazz that shot and either hit an untouchable winner, or hit the fence, or hit the net.

Well..I'm just telling you that some of those rally balls you hit before you got the short ball would have been crushed by a better player. Working on control is fine and you need to continue doing that, but just hitting soft high balls to set up for a short ball is not generally going to work against better players. The point would be over before you get that short ball. Work on both power and control. Just saying that anyone can hit hard and control is more important than power is not correct. Both are equally important as you move up and play better players.

 

[mad dog1]

Well..I'm just telling you that some of those rally balls you hit before you got the short ball would have been crushed by a better player. Working on control is fine and you need to continue doing that, but just hitting soft high balls to set up for a short ball is not generally going to work against better players. The point would be over before you get that short ball. Work on both power and control. Just saying that anyone can hit hard and control is more important than power is not correct. Both are equally important as you move up and play better players.

Those were not soft balls. It was the camera angle that makes his groundstrokes appear to be much slower. TTPS hits as hard as pros. He said so himself in another thread.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Point taken. If that BH if getting attacked easily, I can easily add pace.

For now, I am sticking with the plan of hitting it deep. Deep trumps pace that lands short. Anyone can attack a hard hit ball, they are the easiest to return

 

[mcs1970]

Point taken. If that BH if getting attacked easily, I can easily add pace.

For now, I am sticking with the plan of hitting it deep. Deep trumps pace that lands short. Anyone can attack a hard hit ball, they are the easiest to return

Anyone can attack a hard hit ball? C'mon. That tells me you haven't played against hard hitters.

Depth is important but your clearance is too high. Better players will just take some of those balls in the air and keep moving forward. Also, no disrespect to your opponent since he didn't ask to be filmed, but he is not moving at all. He is just literally walking slowly across the court during the rallies. I've not seen something like that. It's just shocking. One thing with the group I play...all of us can run fast and retrieve shots. Strategies you think are good have to be tested against players who can actually run and retrieve everything. I'm not even saying he has to be a 5.0 player. Find a 3.5 guy who can actually run. That's how you get a better idea of whether some of the things you're doing is going to translate against better players.

 

[SinjinCooper]

Anyone can attack a hard hit ball? C'mon. That tells me you haven't played against hard hitters.

Have to agree with TTPS on this. Give me depth and consistency every time. No problem at all with the net clearance from this coach's perspective.

Yeah, if you're out there playing Agassi, he can step in and pound a moonball even if it's going to land two feet from the baseline. Johnny Three-point-five? Not so much. Yeah, they can hit the ball, sort of. But if it stays deep, they're not attacking off of it.

Hard hit and short is nice if it goes for a winner. Otherwise, it can be blocked back with an abbreviated volley stroke even if the guy hits too hard for you to set up for a full FH or BH. And shots like that are hellish to face coming back at you if you're the hard, short hitter, since they're coming with a lot of redirected power, and the short bounce you gave your opponent gives him plenty of angle to work with, too.

Not saying that session was a perfect replication of tournament playing conditions. But it's better than what we've seen out of him before.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Like I said, I am returning high percentage defensive shots on balls that push me back on the BH side.
They are not my attack ball.
At the very least, this high deep ball clears the net and keeps me in the point.

But, point taken.
Time will tell as I test this stroke and pattern against more 3.5 players.
I can easily add pace, but not at the expense of depth.

Too many players hit pointlessly hard balls low that barely clear the service line,
and then bounce to waist high perfection of their opponent.
That's what I meant by easy to hit.

If someone wants to take those balls in the air, be my guest.
They will earn the point.

 

[TimeToPlaySets]

Also, the 3.5 and maybe even 4.0 needs to back up to hit these high balls.
This takes energy. Some simply don't bother. How does a 3.5 hit a ball above his shoulders?
Either he slices it, lazy, which is not the greatest shot from baseline. Slice can sail long or it can go short.
Or he takes the same topspin FH at it, and sails it long. So, I anticipate maybe even some UE's against my floaty BH that lands deep.

But, no need to speculate.
I will try this out over the next 2 weeks and post some sample clips updates.
If they consistently dominate that ball, then I will reassess.

 

[mcs1970]

.

I totally agree with depth and consistency, but I'm not seeing any pace at all. I've seen people with a pure conti grip hitting deep shots that trouble 4.0s. I've seen players hitting spinny moonballs that trouble players. However, the shots I'm seeing in the video are just floaters.

When TTPS posted about a defensive moonball shot a month ago, I supported him because a) it was a defensive shot and b) It was him trying to make a change to his stroke.

However, this thread is about actual rallies and offensive shots. Those shots he hit in that video will be countered easily by a good player. I'm not even talking about pros or bashing that ball. Also, as I mentioned, even if one feels that this strategy might work against better players, his current opponent is not running at all. That gives you a false confidence in what works and doesn't work. He needs to try it with players who can actually run before getting some level of confidence in that strategy.