Golf Channel vs. Tennis Channel Instruction

crash1929

Hall of Fame
Will do you have any thoughts?

I was working out today at the club and watching the Golf Channel. Something occured to me. There is a ton of coverage on the golf swing. Pro after pro explain the angle of the swing path, plane of the shoulders, position of the hands, etc etc etc etc. My point is is that they break down the golf swing in a way I don't see being done in tennis.

There is kinda only one swing in golf so what else are they going to do right?

I'm close to becoming a 5.0 player and I still really don't understand how to maximize technique to help me get there.

Generally the insturctional pieces on the Tennis Channel are too vague and fluffy, Actually I don't event see many instructional pieces. Yet everytime I turn on the Golf Channel there is a guy breaking down the swing. Could just be coincidence.....

I'd like to see some hard core breakdown of the serve on Tennis Channel. Just an hour on how the raquet head should be moving, how much you should be opening up your wingspan, where the butt cap is pointing along the swing path, where exactly should your elbow be in the trophy position, etc etc etc. Also for the record is it me or do the tennis guys right away pull up video of Federer and Agassi? I saw one poor kid on utube at an Academy who looked like a 4.0 and the lady was really putting him down. Then she said, "Let me pull up a Federer". I just started to LMAO, come on...its just funny to me for some reason. Anyway, I don't see the golf pro's doing this nearly as much.

As anecdotal evidence, as I sat down to write about this topic I saw this post:

dozu
Hall Of Fame
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,362 power source of Fed's FH

my understanding of Fed's FH -

Couldn't find a tennis clip with such explanation
 
Last edited:

spaceman_spiff

Hall of Fame
The problem for tennis pros is that there are too many versions of each shot; everyone's forehand, backhand, and serve are a bit unique.

So, if you were to break down a shot, whose version of the shot would you choose to analyze? If you choose Federer's forehand, that's not useful for those who hit like Nadal. If you choose Nadal's backhand, that's not useful for those who hit more like Murray.

Serves are a bit more uniform, but only from the point of the trophy pose. Everything up to that point can vary quite dramatically.

Tennis really is a case of there being way more than one way to skin a cat, so analyzing the details of the different methods would take up too much time.
 

dozu

Banned
the difference between TGC and TTC, I think can be explained as such -

Tennis - there are too many different strokes.. serves, volleys, groundies, easily can count about 1 dozen different strokes... if too many details are devoted to the technical aspects, we'd be watching this stuff all day on TTC, while missing the hotties like Fit to Hit, Destination Tennis, Court report, and the occasional Bag Check.. who cares about those lousy matches... the hotties are all I watch on TTC.

The game itself is more physical... you can have flaws (even in top pros) in certain areas, but still compete at high levels... also partly because there is more margin for error, bigger ball, bigger racket, wider court, so some flaws can be covered up by athleticism (something cannot be taught).

Golf - there is only one swing.... and the margin for error is much smaller.... but the trick of golf instruction is to apply the principles (kinetic chain and hitting face control) to the individual body types - that's where the art of teaching is in golf... Lousy teachers just regergitate the same sh1t to everybody, and nobody improves... good teachers will figure out what works for the individual player... plus, Kelly Thilman and Stephanie Sparks are nowhere as hot as the TTC chix.... so might as well just go blah blah blah with the technical crap, with some infomercial for some other gizmo crap in the middle.
 

Will Wilson

Semi-Pro
Will do you have any thoughts?

I was working out today at the club and watching the Golf Channel. Something occured to me. There is a ton of coverage on the golf swing. Pro after pro explain the angle of the swing path, plane of the shoulders, position of the hands, etc etc etc etc. My point is is that they break down the golf swing in a way I don't see being done in tennis.

There is kinda only one swing in golf so what else are they going to do right?

I'm close to becoming a 5.0 player and I still really don't understand how to maximize technique to help me get there.

Generally the insturctional pieces on the Tennis Channel are too vague and fluffy, Actually I don't event see many instructional pieces. Yet everytime I turn on the Golf Channel there is a guy breaking down the swing. Could just be coincidence.....

I'd like to see some hard core breakdown of the serve on Tennis Channel. Just an hour on how the raquet head should be moving, how much you should be opening up your wingspan, where the butt cap is pointing along the swing path, where exactly should your elbow be in the trophy position, etc etc etc. Also for the record is it me or do the tennis guys right away pull up video of Federer and Agassi? I saw one poor kid on utube at an Academy who looked like a 4.0 and the lady was really putting him down. Then she said, "Let me pull up a Federer". I just started to LMAO, come on...its just funny to me for some reason. Anyway, I don't see the golf pro's doing this nearly as much.

As anecdotal evidence, as I sat down to write about this topic I saw this post:

dozu
Hall Of Fame
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,362 power source of Fed's FH

my understanding of Fed's FH -

Couldn't find a tennis clip with such explanation

I agree with you. Who wouldn't want more programs about tennis instructions rather than re-runs of old matches, most of which hold little interest to most fans. There is so much to tennis technique, conditioning and match play that surely there could be some programming to cover it.

For example, why not have a program similar to their "playing with the pros" segment where they literally are playing and explaining the mistakes they made, how to fix them, which shot to play, etc. Could do that with 4.5s live, or they could re-play pro matches and show tactical errors in given situations.

My guess is that it costs too much money to produce those shows and TTC is probably not as strong financially as the Golf Channel.
 

dozu

Banned
OP raised an interesting question indeed.

I have watched a TV series produced by the China Tennis Association, 20+ episodes, semi-reality show.

3 teenager (about 4.0-4.5), 1 male coach (some former US college champ and certified coach), 1 former female pro from China as the side-kick coach....

so these 5 work thru all the strokes in tennis, as well as fitness/strategies.

And in the middle of the show, they'd insert some clips of the current Chinese female pros, getting trained by a top coach from the US.

very entertaining and educational stuff.

I am sure TTC can produce something, just at about the same or less cost than producing Destination Tennis, or Fit to Hit... (have to fly pretty faces all over the world to do that show)
 
the difference between TGC and TTC, I think can be explained as such -

Tennis - there are too many different strokes.. serves, volleys, groundies, easily can count about 1 dozen different strokes... if too many details are devoted to the technical aspects, we'd be watching this stuff all day on TTC, while missing the hotties like Fit to Hit, Destination Tennis, Court report, and the occasional Bag Check.. who cares about those lousy matches... the hotties are all I watch on TTC.

The game itself is more physical... you can have flaws (even in top pros) in certain areas, but still compete at high levels... also partly because there is more margin for error, bigger ball, bigger racket, wider court, so some flaws can be covered up by athleticism (something cannot be taught).

Golf - there is only one swing.... and the margin for error is much smaller.... but the trick of golf instruction is to apply the principles (kinetic chain and hitting face control) to the individual body types - that's where the art of teaching is in golf... Lousy teachers just regergitate the same sh1t to everybody, and nobody improves... good teachers will figure out what works for the individual player... plus, Kelly Thilman and Stephanie Sparks are nowhere as hot as the TTC chix.... so might as well just go blah blah blah with the technical crap, with some infomercial for some other gizmo crap in the middle.
As much as I enjoy watching Mayleen Ramey in a gladiator fight, Tennis Channel should show more actual instruction. Many of their shows are just not that interesting. "No strings" basically shows the parts of a tennis pro's life that no one gives a crap about. "Destination Tennis" is basically an infomercial with some cool stuff thrown in. Really, would "Fit to Hit" still recommend belly dancing for fitness if the host wasn't a model?

And don't get me started on the "court reports", where they give away the tape delayed match that's coming up in the next hour. Recorded matches are fine by me, but I still would like to keep the result a secret until then. Duh. Ditch the ESPN style scrolling bar as well. My grandpa tapes up his $1200 LCD because of those silly things.


Even with these problems Tennis Channel has gotten pretty decent. Tennis Channel Academy is decent, but keeps things pretty basic in terms of technique. On Court with USPTA has some good stuff.
 
Last edited:

dozu

Banned
'no strings' ? i don't think i ever saw it.

'signature series' is quite boring too.

I like belly dancing... keep it up TTC.
 
They stopped showing it, I guess. Used to be on all the time. There were some mildly entertaining bits, like Tursinov going ballistic on the golf course, but all in all, just not a great show.
 

El Caver

New User
crash1929,

It sounds like you would enjoy tennisplayer.net. This site gives an indepth analysis of every shot in tennis from many different pros. They also go to the extend of analysing a stroke of a subscriber practically every month. In other words, if you become a member you can send a video of let's say.... your slice backhand and they could break it down and put it on their site.
 

thug the bunny

Professional
Golf is definitely harder but for some reason more people play it. Almost anyone can hit a tennis ball, but many hackers totally fan or barely catch some remote part of the clubhead a good percentage of the time. Therefore, golf instruction is an easy sell to the 80% of golfers out there who hack.

And I don't know...Kelly Thilman is pretty smokin...
 

dozu

Banned
golf hacks are the poorest souls on the planet.

they should all read the book 'How to quit golf' and just give it up... because what the author says is absolutely true - nobody can get better in golf.

the average hack, hitting a large bucket after work, and play a few rounds a year, and getting some sporadic instructions, will never get better.

That's why the golf industry is so lucrative... it's the random rewards (the 2 balls out of the large bucket that was hit flush and dead straight) that keep the poor souls coming back to the game, dishing out more and more dough for some magic formula that doesn't exist.

the game itself is so cruel. missing the sweekspot by 2 inches in tennis, you hit a half decent ball..... do the same in golf, it's instant public humiliation.

and that is why, 'golf school', 'golf fix', 'playing lessons' etc can draw the poor souls in front of the tube.

at the public court, you can see those hack 4somes playing doubles regularly, balls going everywhere, but most of the time still make it in the court, they chase the sucker around like old dogs, break some sweat, and still have some laughs and a good time.

when I go out on the golf course... I see 4somes shank them into trees and ponds and dig clubs in to the dirt 2 feet behind the ball and wack away a dozen times in the bunker... and the partners have to hold back their chuckles not to humiliate the poor fellow even more.... why don't these guys just quit.
 
Last edited:
Well, according to my dad, the newer and larger clubs make a big difference. He tended to slice right a lot with his old ones, then when he tried out a bigger head size the ball went straight as an arrow. Mind you he's not a serious player, he plays only occasionally and shoots in the 90s.
 

dozu

Banned
no disrespect to your dad... I am sure he's cool.

but from what you described, sounds like he is in the 'poor soul' crowd.
 

jmjmkim

Semi-Pro
For the average guy with somewhat above average athletic ability and coordination, with time and effort, and field experience, one can score in the low 90's or even high 80's. Anything above that, one would have to give up work, family and his soul.

I agree that it is the 2 or 3 accidental shots in a round that is hit somewhat the way it should be. . . . . . that makes the "poor" souls into thinking that they just figured out the "secrets to the universe".

The equipment line is a joke, with all these big, huge drivers that cost $500. I think the GBB was about the largest it should have gotten, anything bigger just too much, like a racket headsize bigger than 110.
 
Last edited:
no disrespect to your dad... I am sure he's cool.

but from what you described, sounds like he is in the 'poor soul' crowd.

Again, we're talking about a guy who plays less than once a year nowadays and does not care a wit about the result. But he noticed that with larger clubs it was a lot easier.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Stroke Analysis Shows for Golfers & Tennis Players

Golf & Tennis

I purchased a high speed video (HSV) camera 6 months ago and wanted to find information on the application of HSV to tennis. Internet searches found some for tennis but there was much more widespread use of HSV in golf.

Suppose that you watch a thorough stroke breakdown on Tennis Channel or elsewhere and then try to add what is shown to your stroke. How do you get any feedback as to what you are doing? You can't see or feel it that accurately. Instructors see better but they can't see or describe your strokes either when the racket hits the ball. Only using high speed video works for feedback.

That fact became clear to the golfer's with their simpler stroke some time ago. Especially when the low priced, powerful Casio HSV cameras became available, they started using them. Maybe there is much more demand for golf instruction shows, in part, because high speed video is used much more widely in golf.

Chas
 

Cindysphinx

G.O.A.T.
golf hacks are the poorest souls on the planet.

they should all read the book 'How to quit golf' and just give it up... because what the author says is absolutely true - nobody can get better in golf.

Boy, ain't it the truth?

In tennis, if you get to the ball and hit it with half-decent technique, you can still have a good shot. I hit a service return the other day that was a full-on shank, but it fell for a drop shot winner. Sweet!!

That will never, ever happen to you in golf. Even the teensiest error in club face will send the ball shooting toward the highway. There is pretty much only one way you can get anywhere in golf, and that is by hitting the ball straight. In tennis, all sorts of weirdness will still win you some points.

You can't even be a pusher in golf. And no matter how bad you are in tennis, there is someone on the planet you can beat. Golf has no mercy in this regard. You either know what you are doing and can hit the darn ball, or you are off in the bushes getting Lyme's disease.

I golf with my husband sometimes. The hardest thing is hitting the ball straight. The second hardest thing is pretending I am having fun.

Cindy -- unsure why they regulate the length of skirts women can wear so your skirt length choices are "school marm" or "WWII battlefield nurse"
 

crash1929

Hall of Fame
crash1929,

It sounds like you would enjoy tennisplayer.net. This site gives an indepth analysis of every shot in tennis from many different pros. They also go to the extend of analysing a stroke of a subscriber practically every month. In other words, if you become a member you can send a video of let's say.... your slice backhand and they could break it down and put it on their site.

el caver,

4 posts? new?

Thanks I will check this out

tennisplayer.net
 

crash1929

Hall of Fame
The tennis channel great. I actually like seeing whats in the players bags. The women are very attractive as well and that doesn't hurt.

I just think there could be more instruction. Like the kind of discussions on here. Some of the expert posters here should apply for a tc job.
 
C

chico9166

Guest
I think it would interesting/helpful if the Tennis Channel did something similar to the GC's Hainey project. Whereby, the pro took the viewers through a series of lessons with a player who exhibits any number of common swing flaws.

It would be beneficial to see the different methods/exercises pro's take to address common problems.

Or maybe Destination Tennis-LeeD. A day in the life of our most trusted Guru.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Maui19

Hall of Fame
Again, we're talking about a guy who plays less than once a year nowadays and does not care a wit about the result. But he noticed that with larger clubs it was a lot easier.

Modern gear has made golf much easier to play. While handicaps have declined some in the last 20 years, the difficulty of golf courses has increased, which is why average scores remain about the same.

Much like tennis, advances in equipment have turned golf from a finesse game into a power game.

Personally, I think tennis is a much easier game than golf. In all fairness, I do have a fair amount of athleticism, so moving on the court is easy for me. If that wasn't the case, I'm not sure the game would seem as easy.

I think in golf you have to master many more types of shots than you do in tennis. (And the idea that there is just one kind of swing in golf, but many kinds in tennis is ludicrous.)

I would love to see more quality instruction on TTC (much like on TGC). I would certainly watch.
 

dozu

Banned
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4smKIu2uARU

there is only ONE swing in golf.. the difficulty comes from the small margin for error, therefore swing sequence, balance, aim are critical.

Tennis - (forehand + backhand) * (top + flat + slice)
serve - flat+slice+kick
fh+ bh ) * (half volley + drop volley + deep volley)
fh + bh) * approach shots.

Footwork patterns/ stance - open/closed/neutral, running shots, inside out, moving forward/backward.

each of them requires a specific pattern of its own.
 

thug the bunny

Professional
Some funny sh1t on this thread about poor souls and shanking for Lyme's disease! My son and I did 18 this past weekend and got hooked up with a couple of poor souls. I would say contact somewhere near the center of the club face was about 1 out of 10, but even then it was pull, push, slice, hook. If they had been keeping score they must have been somewhere in the 130s. the pace of play was excruciating. Somewhere around the middle of the round Ryan comes over and whispers, "Why do these guys play golf?" I just laughed and said I have no idea. It's like going into the ring every weekend against Hollyfield or Tyson, getting your brains pounded, and thinking maybe next weekend I'll get him.

Dozu, it sounds like you know golf, so why you say there's only one swing? I know that there is no backhand in golf, but you can't say that a punch 8 iron is the same swing as a high cut driver....
 

dozu

Banned
the one-swing thing isn't my idea.... the Bear said it in the video above.

the concept, is that with the same swing motion, but with different set up.... stance, ball position, open/closed club face, you can hit high/low/draw/fade basically with the same motion.

now that is not to say the full swing is the same as a 3-foot chip.... but if we are just talking about full swing alone, you can indeed play golf with 1 swing.

so for instance, you put the ball back in the stance, so you hit down more on the ball with the 8i, and with a low finish, you get a punch 8i..

and you move the ball more forward in the stance, tee it up high, open the face a tad, and with a high finish, you get a high cut driver.
 
Last edited:

thug the bunny

Professional
Excellent! (with Monty Burns voice). You do know golf. Well played Dozu! I've been crushing my drives lately, with intended shape...
 

dozu

Banned
You can't even be a pusher in golf....

The second hardest thing is pretending I am having fun.

Cindy -- unsure why they regulate the length of skirts women can wear so your skirt length choices are "school marm" or "WWII battlefield nurse"

good stuff Cindy :)

you are right - the game is so cruel, you can't even push.. if you know you have a crappy swing after 3 holes, there is no way to get out of 15 more times of public humiliation.
 

dozu

Banned
Excellent! (with Monty Burns voice). You do know golf. Well played Dozu! I've been crushing my drives lately, with intended shape...

that must feel good :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWse4N34xu8

here is me playing a couple of holes in my garage.... have been working mostly on my grip issue all winter, but now am consistently shooting around 80 on the simulator, holding 6 course records in the 70's against 1 record from my partner :)... Problem of bringing this swing to the course is really lack of time.

Did 12 holes of pitch n putt at a local course yesterday.... beating my buddy 2&1 match play.

since you are in Jersey, if you happen to be in lower Bucks, let me know and we can hang out.
 

thug the bunny

Professional
Very Nice! you have a bit of a sway off the ball like I used to do, but now I keep my head on the ball and don't transfer my weight, kinda like the "stack 'n tilt". Must be nice to be able to hit through the winter...

Thanks for the invite. Likewise, if you're at the jersey shore, we have lots of great courses here - we should hook up.
 

dozu

Banned
just saw on TV -

Geoff Ogilvy, missed the green with his approach shot by 30 yards, screwed up the pitch, missed the green again by 10 yards, chipped to within 6 feet, and 3 putt from there for a triple bogey.

And this guy has won major and some big tournaments.

Nobody can get better in golf.
 

thug the bunny

Professional
I derive perverse pleasure in watching golf pros when the wheels come off, unless it's Phil. Did you see the total hosel shank (I forgot who) in the wind last weekend? Or Camillo the Stud shooting +9? Most Excellent.

Dozu do you work?;-)
 

dozu

Banned
ha, so you are a fan of the leftie.

no, didn't catch the hosel shot... but have seen some of those on youtube.

"Find something you love to do, and you'll never work a day in your life" - Harvey MacKay
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4smKIu2uARU

there is only ONE swing in golf.. the difficulty comes from the small margin for error, therefore swing sequence, balance, aim are critical.

Tennis - (forehand + backhand) * (top + flat + slice)
serve - flat+slice+kick
fh+ bh ) * (half volley + drop volley + deep volley)
fh + bh) * approach shots.

Footwork patterns/ stance - open/closed/neutral, running shots, inside out, moving forward/backward.

each of them requires a specific pattern of its own.

Don't forget those pesky individuals who want to tack on the reverse slice serve and/or the reverse kick serve!
 
Top