Good player (6.0) vs Great player (7.0)

scrappydoo

scrappydoo

New User
Hello TW,

Its been a while since I posted on here, but I recorded a few interesting matches the other day and thought I would share with you all!

One of the more popular topics on the forums has to do with the differences between the different levels. Who would win, Johnny Mac or Serena? Who would win, a 6.0 or two 3.0s? It is always difficult for players to imagine the different NTRP levels above their ability. We sign up for tournaments and leagues based on our current ability, and end up playing people that are on the similar level. We watch the better players play and mutter to our mates "I can do that!" It is only until we play against the better players that we begin to comprehend the skill that more advanced players posses.

Now, why am I bringing this up? A couple weekends ago we had a great new tournament with some fantastic players, none more fantastic than Robert Kendrick. This is the first year for this tournament, and in future years it is looking to become an off-season warm up for quality players. Mr. Kendrick was kind enough to come up from toasty Florida to participate as a favor for a friend. For those that don't know, he played his college tennis at U of Washington and Pepperdine, turned pro, and reached a high ranking of #69 in the world. His career ended when he was suspended by the ITF for testing positive for a banned substance (This thread is about the differences in tennis abilities, not his suspension, please keep your replies on-topic). Even though Mr. Kendrick is a couple years removed from serious competition and training, his skill and experience undoubtably mean he is a NTRP 7.0.

The main draw for the Open division of the tournament was comprised of 16 players. Mr. Kendrick was the #1 seed. His first round was against the second best junior in the Section. He is a high school junior, and although he has no stars on TR (international) I would confidently say he is a 4 star player. This translates to a 5.0-5.5 NTRP. Their match lasted about 25 minutes with Kendrick winning 6-0, 6-0.

Kendrick breezed through his second match 6-0, 6-0 beating another 5.0 player.

His semi-final match was against a 19 year old from North of the Border. A talented and athletic player easily NTRP 5.5-6.0. Kendrick blew through him 6-1, 6-0 in about 30 minutes.

The final was against Nick Edlefsen. Nick is 29 now, and played his college tennis at UC Santa Barbara before transferring to the University of Minnesota. He had a ATP high rank of 991 in the world. I would rate Nick as a 6.0 player for a few reasons. A easy benchmark for these forums is TonLars. Here is a video of Nick playing Tony a few years ago in a very tightly contested final. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAhTCWMVpUY

In this tournament Nick was originally the #3 seed, before being bumped to the #2 seed after an unfortunate late withdrawal due to emergency. He played an incredibly nervous 5.0 college kid (me) in the quarterfinals winning 6-1, 6-4. Then played a current Dartmouth #3-4 player in the semi's winning 6-4, 6-4. I would be comfortable rating this kid as a 5.5 player.

And that brings us to the final. I feel I have set up both player's ability well, and will let the video do the talking. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_6axCulzfs (Watch in 1080 with the volume down low)

Kendrick won 6-2, 6-2 in just under an hour. It was obvious watching that there was a major gap in abilities, but Nick definitely earned some games. It is important to keep in mind Kendrick is not in his best form, but I still believe he is a NTRP 7.0 player. It was an incredible opportunity to see different levels clash, and help put into perspective just how good he is!

Hope you enjoy it, and feel free to ask any questions!
 
very nice facility..

the one guy was definitely better-- not sure if he was trying as hard in some of the later games serving.. i would expect a faster serve from a 7.0 player-- the first few serves seemed faster.

i think the ratings might be overall high but theyre both good players..

sounds like you didnt do much worse than the guy in the final -- maybe better? - if your a 5.0 id guess the winner was a solid 6.0 but 7? im not sure- a 7.0 should double bagel a 5.0 i would think..
 
I don't think Nick couldn't pressure Kendrick enough to fully reveal the gap in skill level. I saw quite a few shots from Kendrick that wouldn't fly on the ATP tour, but he knew his opponent couldn't really take advantage of them to do any damage. To me, it seemed Kendrick was playing it safe. That's my armchair analysis.

Anyways, thanks for the video. Like you said, these skill level gap videos are always fun to watch.
 
I think it's hard to say that a player who is not actively training for the tour and is 34 (i.e. near the age when people usually decline anyway) is still a 7.0 (or top 400 caliber player). Regardless, NTRP ratings are meaningless for people not playing USTA leagues anyway, so rating anyone over 5.0 or trying to rate juniors or college players is an exercise in futility.

Anyway, these guys are clearly very good, but I'd just label it as "former touring pro vs former D1 college player" as opposed to trying to put meaningless artificial ratings on them.
 
Biggest mistake people make when watching is underestimating quality of shot.
You see the groundstrokes and think I can rally like that or return that serve.
Problem is you fail to realize that sure its easy to hit a great looking forehand/backhand/serve return when playing someone at/below your skill level but have no clue how hard it is when you play someone who puts more spin and/or pace on it than what you are used to and then can do it consistently on every shot.
You try rallying with someone who look like the pace of their shot is not very much harder than your but is putting 3-600 more rpm of spin on it and suddenly you realize just how hard it is to hit back a quality shot.

Its pretty apparent in this video that the guy playing Kendrick, while he is good, is just not used to the pace and lacks the reaction speed to really deal with Kendrick shot very well. When he gets a shot back more often than not its not a quality shot that puts pressure on Kendrick.
To me it looks like Kendrick is not even playing all out and is very relaxed. He'd most likely wipe the floor with any USTA rated player in the country and could still hold his own against a top 500 ATP player.
 
JrB,

That leads right into what I was going to ask the op. How does a player get a rating of 6.5 or 7.0 anyway? I've never heard of a league past 5.0 and even those leagues I see guys traveling across 3 states to be on a team some time. It's not like a 3.5 league where you have 15 teams in a city. So again, if a say for example 5.0 player were to get bumped to say 5.5. Where do they go play to get bumped to 7.0 I've been meaning to ask that question for a long time.

J_R_B said:
I think it's hard to say that a player who is not actively training for the tour and is 34 (i.e. near the age when people usually decline anyway) is still a 7.0 (or top 400 caliber player). Regardless, NTRP ratings are meaningless for people not playing USTA leagues anyway, so rating anyone over 5.0 or trying to rate juniors or college players is an exercise in futility.

Anyway, these guys are clearly very good, but I'd just label it as "former touring pro vs former D1 college player" as opposed to trying to put meaningless artificial ratings on them.
Click to expand...
 
chatt_town said:
JrB,

That leads right into what I was going to ask the op. How does a player get a rating of 6.5 or 7.0 anyway? I've never heard of a league past 5.0 and even those leagues I see guys traveling across 3 states to be on a team some time. It's not like a 3.5 league where you have 15 teams in a city. So again, if a say for example 5.0 player were to get bumped to say 5.5. Where do they go play to get bumped to 7.0 I've been meaning to ask that question for a long time.
Click to expand...

From my data, I'm only aware of 52 6.5/7.0 rated players. All of the 7.0s but two are self-rated (the other two are T) and there are a few more Ts for the 6.5s but I see only one B. But all those Ts are from years ago and even the B is from 2011 year-end.

There are a lot more 6.0s including a few Bs and Ds (DQs) in 2013.
 
So at what point do you think they need to drop the rating and just call them a pro in your opinion.


schmke said:
From my data, I'm only aware of 52 6.5/7.0 rated players. All of the 7.0s but two are self-rated (the other two are T) and there are a few more Ts for the 6.5s but I see only one B. But all those Ts are from years ago and even the B is from 2011 year-end.

There are a lot more 6.0s including a few Bs and Ds (DQs) in 2013.
Click to expand...
 
I saw the difference real quick between 4.0's and 5'0's at a state tourney where I was on a 4.5 team(40 + age group). I forgot where I was and threw up a lob...well turns out it was a damn good lob...or so I thought. I went trotting into the net like I always do waiting for the bs reply...the guy runs back...gets set up and whhhham...almost takes my eye out with an overhead from the back corner.lol They allowed you to have like 2 5.0's on the team but they had to play line 1. Well I was playing line with our 5.0. There is a huge difference in the levels that is for sure and if you aren't careful...you could get hurt as I quickly learned. Needless to say...I lobbed everything out after that...the 1 or two I did throw up.lol


schmke said:
From my data, I'm only aware of 52 6.5/7.0 rated players. All of the 7.0s but two are self-rated (the other two are T) and there are a few more Ts for the 6.5s but I see only one B. But all those Ts are from years ago and even the B is from 2011 year-end.

There are a lot more 6.0s including a few Bs and Ds (DQs) in 2013.
Click to expand...
 
chatt_town said:
So at what point do you think they need to drop the rating and just call them a pro in your opinion.
Click to expand...

By the USTA's definition, probably 6.5.

6.0 to 7.0
You have had intensive training for national tournament competition at the junior and collegiate levels and have obtained a sectional and/or national ranking.


7.0
You are a world-class player.​
 
Wow, thanks for posting this. It really looked like a much younger player competing against a much older player. I thought the biggest difference was explosiveness, footwork, quickness and as a result racquet head speed. How old is Kendrick? His reaction time was just sooooooo much faster.

On every stroke Kendrick appeared to be moving as quickly as humanly possible to hit an aggressive shot to dictate play. He was not interested in rallying, it was to get his opponent on the defensive and then end the point plain and simple. Nick's movement looked like someone who's putting the ball in play to rally.

I wonder with the proper training as long as he is fit enough if Nick could get to Kendrick's level.
 
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asifallasleep said:
Wow, thanks for posting this. It really looked like a much younger player competing against a much older player. I thought the biggest difference was explosiveness, footwork, quickness and as a result racquet head speed. How old is Kendrick? His reaction time was just sooooooo much faster.

On every stroke Kendrick appeared to be moving as quickly as humanly possible to hit an aggressive shot to dictate play. He was not interested in rallying, it was to get his opponent on the defensive and then end the point plain and simple. Nick's movement looked like someone who's putting the ball in play to rally.

I wonder with the proper training as long as he is fit enough if Nick could get to Kendrick's level.
Click to expand...

Kendrick obviously has the experience, but he is older than than Nick at 34.
 
I wonder what is the point of usta ranking anyone over a 5.0 rating when they barely have any 5.0 leagues.

schmke said:
By the USTA's definition, probably 6.5.

6.0 to 7.0
You have had intensive training for national tournament competition at the junior and collegiate levels and have obtained a sectional and/or national ranking.


7.0
You are a world-class player.​
Click to expand...
 
schmke said:
From my data, I'm only aware of 52 6.5/7.0 rated players. All of the 7.0s but two are self-rated (the other two are T) and there are a few more Ts for the 6.5s but I see only one B. But all those Ts are from years ago and even the B is from 2011 year-end.

There are a lot more 6.0s including a few Bs and Ds (DQs) in 2013.
Click to expand...

I think if I remember correctly, the 6.5B player was a self-rating grievance for a guy who played Davis Cup for some third world country and then self-rated 4.0 but didn't disclose his playing history on his self-rating, so they bumped him to 6.5 punitively. In reality, that guy was probably no better than an average 4.5 and 4.0 was much closer to his real level than 6.5, but you know, you do the crime, you do the time...
 
Thanks man, glad you enjoyed it! You have a keen eye, Kendrick definitely took some games easy. There were a few forehands and a couple games where you can see him step it up.
 
KineticChain said:
I don't think Nick couldn't pressure Kendrick enough to fully reveal the gap in skill level. I saw quite a few shots from Kendrick that wouldn't fly on the ATP tour, but he knew his opponent couldn't really take advantage of them to do any damage. To me, it seemed Kendrick was playing it safe. That's my armchair analysis.

Anyways, thanks for the video. Like you said, these skill level gap videos are always fun to watch.
Click to expand...

Thanks man, glad you enjoyed it! You have a keen eye, Kendrick definitely took some games easy. There were a few forehands and a couple games where you can see him step it up.
 
J_R_B said:
I think it's hard to say that a player who is not actively training for the tour and is 34 (i.e. near the age when people usually decline anyway) is still a 7.0 (or top 400 caliber player). Regardless, NTRP ratings are meaningless for people not playing USTA leagues anyway, so rating anyone over 5.0 or trying to rate juniors or college players is an exercise in futility.

Anyway, these guys are clearly very good, but I'd just label it as "former touring pro vs former D1 college player" as opposed to trying to put meaningless artificial ratings on them.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I agree the ratings above 5.5 or so are pretty meaningless. You have to admit, they are catchy though.
 
cknobman said:
Biggest mistake people make when watching is underestimating quality of shot.
You see the groundstrokes and think I can rally like that or return that serve.
Problem is you fail to realize that sure its easy to hit a great looking forehand/backhand/serve return when playing someone at/below your skill level but have no clue how hard it is when you play someone who puts more spin and/or pace on it than what you are used to and then can do it consistently on every shot.
You try rallying with someone who look like the pace of their shot is not very much harder than your but is putting 3-600 more rpm of spin on it and suddenly you realize just how hard it is to hit back a quality shot.

Its pretty apparent in this video that the guy playing Kendrick, while he is good, is just not used to the pace and lacks the reaction speed to really deal with Kendrick shot very well. When he gets a shot back more often than not its not a quality shot that puts pressure on Kendrick.
To me it looks like Kendrick is not even playing all out and is very relaxed. He'd most likely wipe the floor with any USTA rated player in the country and could still hold his own against a top 500 ATP player.
Click to expand...

Spot on! very true
 
Overdrive said:
Has Kendrick played Tony before? Just wondering..
Click to expand...

This is the second time to my knowledge that Kendrick has come to the area. Once back in college for Ice Volley's and for this tournament. He has never played Tony to my knowledge. I have though! I got second place in that match...:D
 
chatt_town said:
JrB,

That leads right into what I was going to ask the op. How does a player get a rating of 6.5 or 7.0 anyway? I've never heard of a league past 5.0 and even those leagues I see guys traveling across 3 states to be on a team some time. It's not like a 3.5 league where you have 15 teams in a city. So again, if a say for example 5.0 player were to get bumped to say 5.5. Where do they go play to get bumped to 7.0 I've been meaning to ask that question for a long time.
Click to expand...

I too have never seen a player officially rated 7.0. But the USTA classifies 7.0 like this "The 7.0 is a world class player.". I would consider Kendrick, even a couple years removed from competition a world class player.

The #2 seed in the Women's Open draw was a self rated NTRP 6.5 player. She played #1 at Oklahoma a few years back, and travels around playing national tournaments.

Hopefully this helps!
 
asifallasleep said:
Wow, thanks for posting this. It really looked like a much younger player competing against a much older player. I thought the biggest difference was explosiveness, footwork, quickness and as a result racquet head speed. How old is Kendrick? His reaction time was just sooooooo much faster.

On every stroke Kendrick appeared to be moving as quickly as humanly possible to hit an aggressive shot to dictate play. He was not interested in rallying, it was to get his opponent on the defensive and then end the point plain and simple. Nick's movement looked like someone who's putting the ball in play to rally.

I wonder with the proper training as long as he is fit enough if Nick could get to Kendrick's level.
Click to expand...

Thanks for watching! I agree with everything, his anticipation was off the charts. I honestly think if Nick trained every day he would never be as good as Robert.
 
cknobman said:
Biggest mistake people make when watching is underestimating quality of shot.
You see the groundstrokes and think I can rally like that or return that serve.
Problem is you fail to realize that sure its easy to hit a great looking forehand/backhand/serve return when playing someone at/below your skill level but have no clue how hard it is when you play someone who puts more spin and/or pace on it than what you are used to and then can do it consistently on every shot.
You try rallying with someone who look like the pace of their shot is not very much harder than your but is putting 3-600 more rpm of spin on it and suddenly you realize just how hard it is to hit back a quality shot.
Click to expand...

Totally agree with the above.

In addition, another thing that is underrated is the mental pressure that comes with knowing that any weak or short ball is going to be attacked and likely lead to a lost point. I've recently moved up from 4.5 to 5.0 and that is the biggest difference I have noticed. At 4.5 I can get lazy and hit a weaker or shorter ball and only pay for it sometimes. At 5.0 a weak ball is big trouble. it took a while for me to improve my focus where I could consistently hit stronger balls in long rallies.
 
Edberg's Iceburg said:
Totally agree with the above.

In addition, another thing that is underrated is the mental pressure that comes with knowing that any weak or short ball is going to be attacked and likely lead to a lost point. I've recently moved up from 4.5 to 5.0 and that is the biggest difference I have noticed. At 4.5 I can get lazy and hit a weaker or shorter ball and only pay for it sometimes. At 5.0 a weak ball is big trouble. it took a while for me to improve my focus where I could consistently hit stronger balls in long rallies.
Click to expand...

I think that's relative to the level. When I was a 3.0, I could hit short balls all day long, and my opponents would simply dink it over and retreat back to the baseline. Now at 3.5, everyone that I've played so far hits approach shots and follows up with a volley. At 4.0, they actually hit *good* approach shots that are sometimes winners. When I play 4.5, they no longer hit approach shots when I give them short balls, they hit outright winners -- point is over.
 
Nice video...only wished the camera were closer to the action. Some sick shots made...just shaking my head.
 
So from what you are saying that is basically Tennis way of giving you a "death sentence"...where you basically never play tennis again in usta seeing how you will probably play a match to even be bumped back down...unless you get with the other 23 6.5's across the country and fly and play somewhere...and even then you will have some serious match throwing going on right?lol That's hilarious.lol


J_R_B said:
I think if I remember correctly, the 6.5B player was a self-rating grievance for a guy who played Davis Cup for some third world country and then self-rated 4.0 but didn't disclose his playing history on his self-rating, so they bumped him to 6.5 punitively. In reality, that guy was probably no better than an average 4.5 and 4.0 was much closer to his real level than 6.5, but you know, you do the crime, you do the time...
Click to expand...
 
Thanks for posting! That was good stuff.

I didn't read your post initially, just saw 6.0 v 7.0 and launched into the vid. I could tell by the first serve that it couldn't have been the 7.0 serving. You can just tell the difference in the look of a "pro" serve vs a "good player" serve.
 
the point at 4:45 is just beautiful

on the run smack down the line to an inside out BH approach rip

are you kidding me?

I frackin love it
 
Kendrick took two sets from Nadal in 2006 Wimbledon.
"In his first match, he beat Yen-Hsun Lu 7–6, 6–3, 6–0. In the second round, he lost to second seed, Rafael Nadal. The Spaniard had to come back for only the second time in his career from two sets down to beat Kendrick 6–7, 3–6, 7–6, 7–5, 6–4. Kendrick's performance surprised many. Kendrick was the only player in the tournament to take sets from Nadal on the Spaniard's route to the final, where he lost to top-seeded Swiss Roger Federer". (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kendrick).

In the same year's Wimbledon draw, Nadal beat Agassi and Baghdatis in straight sets. Baghdatis was in Aussie final and Wimbledon semi that year. At US Open '06 second round, the 5 set battle between Agassi and Baghdatis was described in detail in the beginning of Agassi's "Open". Kendrick's result is remarkable in comparison if neither of those two guys could take a set from Nadal.
 
Nice video. Edlefsen is a quality player, and showed flashes of pro level stuff. But he was obviously outgunned by a clearly superior player. Like you said OP, you can see the gaps in ability, especially on the serve, return, and movement.

Any legit top 200 pro should routine a good college player who had a few points in his prime. And Kendrick was quite talented for a journeyman pro: the Wimbledon match vs Nadal shows that.
 
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asifallasleep said:
I wonder with the proper training as long as he is fit enough if Nick could get to Kendrick's level.
Click to expand...

I wonder this too. Several times I saw Nick able to hit nice winners after setting it up during the rally. I also saw a lot of unforced errors, as well as forced. Give Nick some dedicated training at one of the top tennis training regimens and I think, quickness, anticipation, knowing what to do with the ball and when, would all improve dramatically. It's only because Nick probably doesn't deal with Kendrick's level of play day in and out that he's overwhelmed. Now, does that mean Nick could get to that level? Will get to that level? That of course is the question. At the least I think Nick could get close enough to at least take a set 3 out of 5 matches (which doesn't mean it would always happen only that it could happen based overall results from training and matches with other similar quality opponents such as Kendrick).
 
Thanks to scrappydoo and anubis for vids. Really enjoyed watching them. Kendricks has the predictably heavy serve and shots of a world class player. Was very interesting to see him against the lefty, who hit some really nice shots, and is very talented himself, but just somewhat overmatched with regard to every aspect of the game.
 
Rafael Nadal is a true 7.0 player!

He wins even if he has an off day usually!

Does not have the best strokes or serve in the game; but he know how to win a match against almost everyone he plays --------------------- in the world! Sorry to say that prize money(which last year was in the neighborhood of $14 million U.S.) is not Rafa's prime source of his earnings - endorsements are. It amounts to $65 million; second in the player's tour! Roger Federer has $78 million in endorsements in 2013 :)
 
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TomT said:
Thanks to scrappydoo and anubis for vids. Really enjoyed watching them. Kendricks has the predictably heavy serve and shots of a world class player. Was very interesting to see him against the lefty, who hit some really nice shots, and is very talented himself, but just somewhat overmatched with regard to every aspect of the game.
Click to expand...

TOMT! Thanks for taking the time to watch the videos and post! Your analysis is spot on! Followed a bunch of your posts in the past, keep up the good work!
 
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