Got whooped by a 55 year old pusher in my first tournament match

Mongolmike

Hall of Fame
This is my favorite MEP match also a good strategy for playing against that type of style.


First time I've ever heard "MEP"/Ben talk. What a humble guy. He knows what his game is, and owns it. Good for him. And for anyone dogging on him for his style of play, I think it is unfair. Pretty clear that he is self taught, works hard on the court, and is a true sportsman during the match. And as for the score, Scott admitted he was on, that he scouted beforehand, he had a solid game plan, and there wasn't much Ben could do to hurt him. Score showed.
 

chuckersthenut

Hall of Fame
First time I've ever heard "MEP"/Ben talk. What a humble guy. He knows what his game is, and owns it. Good for him. And for anyone dogging on him for his style of play, I think it is unfair. Pretty clear that he is self taught, works hard on the court, and is a true sportsman during the match. And as for the score, Scott admitted he was on, that he scouted beforehand, he had a solid game plan, and there wasn't much Ben could do to hurt him. Score showed.
Yep. I find Ben to be rather intelligent honestly. He is 100% self aware which is rare on these times. If you watch the second part Scott reveals that his dog passed away that morning so there was a little extra. And you can see it.
 

Creighton

Professional
First time I've ever heard "MEP"/Ben talk. What a humble guy. He knows what his game is, and owns it. Good for him. And for anyone dogging on him for his style of play, I think it is unfair. Pretty clear that he is self taught, works hard on the court, and is a true sportsman during the match. And as for the score, Scott admitted he was on, that he scouted beforehand, he had a solid game plan, and there wasn't much Ben could do to hurt him. Score showed.

The one thing I really respect out of someone like MEP, in all my time watching him I don't recall any bad line calls. Which is really impressive for someone whose game relies on his opponents making mistakes.
 

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
Got whooped by a pusher tonight. Drop shot short then lob deep all night long.
Is this considered pushing? Genuine question as it seems like a very offensive strategy requiring a lot of skill to execute well and targeting most older/out-of-shape rec player’s weakness to move up/down well. It seems the opposite of just hitting to the middle and waiting for an error to end points which is how I’ve usually seen the term ‘pusher‘ defined.

It is usually a well respected tennis strategy to push players back with deep shots or deep serves/returns and then drop shot them to take advantage of the open space at the front of the court. And if someone gets to the dropshot, lobbing is a natural counter to now make use of the open space at the back of the sport. The pros do it very well particularly on clay.

Isn’t it good tennis to dictate point patterns by opening up space on the court and then exploiting it?
 

Creighton

Professional
Is this considered pushing? Genuine question as it seems like a very offensive strategy requiring a lot of skill to execute well and targeting most older/out-of-shape rec player’s weakness to move up/down well. It seems the opposite of just hitting to the middle and waiting for an error to end points which is how I’ve usually seen the term ‘pusher‘ defined.

It is usually a well respected tennis strategy to push players back with deep shots or deep serves/returns and then drop shot them to take advantage of the open space at the front of the court. And if someone gets to the dropshot, lobbing is a natural counter to now make use of the open space at the back of the sport. The pros do it very well particularly on clay.

Isn’t it good tennis to dictate point patterns by opening up space on the court and then exploiting it?

The professionals usually hit winners on their drop shots and lobs. So maybe it's an offensive strategy at that level. This was just bad drops shots I could run down every time and he was just relying on me to make mistakes. Likewise, the lobs I could run down as well so he was just relying on me making a mistake.

The opponent even said he didn't want to play singles any more because he just reverted to being a pusher. So if he's calling himself a pusher, I would say it's definitely pushing.
 

toby55555

Hall of Fame
A large majority of people on here would say pusher is a derogatory term.
Anyone who read that description of their own game certainly would. I wonder what happened when OP attacked the short ball and came to the net, you can’t push the ball past a competent volleyer but opponent may have had a second gear for just such plays.
 

Pass750

Professional
Anyone who read that description of their own game certainly would. I wonder what happened when OP attacked the short ball and came to the net, you can’t push the ball past a competent volleyer but opponent may have had a second gear for just such plays.
Probably never generated any short or if he did he didn’t have the strokes to put them away or win the point on the opponents next shot.
 
S

Slicehand

Guest
The pusher who beat me was definitely better than me. If he hadn't only played doubles last season or could volley, we wouldn't be in the same rating level.
yeah i was talking more in general, not saying you were saying wrong things, i lost my first tournaments to "pushers" some loses were ok , but others really hit hard as it was difficult to see how someone who didnt accelerate one ball could beat me like that, but it was the thing that really made me improve my game, the important thing, dont avoid "pushers" play them as often as you can, then the players who are willing to miss a bit more will become easy to beat, nowadays i beat 6-1, 6-1 pushers that used to make me go crazy by being smarter than me, its a part of tennis you have to go trough if you want to improve, you have to be able to find solutions against every kind of player
 

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
The professionals usually hit winners on their drop shots and lobs. So maybe it's an offensive strategy at that level. This was just bad drops shots I could run down every time and he was just relying on me to make mistakes. Likewise, the lobs I could run down as well so he was just relying on me making a mistake.

The opponent even said he didn't want to play singles any more because he just reverted to being a pusher. So if he's calling himself a pusher, I would say it's definitely pushing.

The strategy was sound. However if you are saying neither the drop shot nor the lob was anything great why were you not able to finsh most of those off?

This is what I said before. Most who complain about losing to so called pushers are pushers themselves if they ever watched videos of those matches but refuse to admit it.
 

MisterP

Hall of Fame
The one thing I really respect out of someone like MEP, in all my time watching him I don't recall any bad line calls. Which is really impressive for someone whose game relies on his opponents making mistakes.

There’s one of him making an absolute howler of a call when he went up to Milwaukee to play Ian. I can’t remember which match it was. But it was on the ad side, iirc, and it was like a foot inside the line. They did a slowmo replay on it.

Just goes to show, everybody makes bad calls from time to time. Or that pushers are inherently evil people. Depends on your perspective, I suppose.
 
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Creighton

Professional
The strategy was sound. However if you are saying neither the drop shot nor the lob was anything great why were you not able to finsh most of those off?

Because I'm a medium to low level 4.0 sandbagging as a 3.5. I don't have that consistency to finish every shot. Most points are lost not won at this level.
This is what I said before. Most who complain about losing to so called pushers are pushers themselves if they ever watched videos of those matches but refuse to admit it.

I already said his style of play forced me into pusher mode so I quit being as aggressive on his bad shots. So either you're just being unnecessarily argumentative or you're someone who calls everyone below high level 4.5 a pusher.
 

legcramp

Professional
The strategy was sound. However if you are saying neither the drop shot nor the lob was anything great why were you not able to finsh most of those off?

This is what I said before. Most who complain about losing to so called pushers are pushers themselves if they ever watched videos of those matches but refuse to admit it.
Pot calling the kettle..
 

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
Because I'm a medium to low level 4.0 sandbagging as a 3.5. I don't have that consistency to finish every shot. Most points are lost not won at this level.


I already said his style of play forced me into pusher mode so I quit being as aggressive on his bad shots. So either you're just being unnecessarily argumentative or you're someone who calls everyone below high level 4.5 a pusher.

You talked about the strategy. As multiple folks have mentioned there is nothing pusher about the strategy itself. At that point you mentioned how even those shots were nothing great. Then either seize control of the point or back to the drawing board. You can’t miss easy shots ( if those were easy) and then try to discredit your opponent at the same time.

Also the pusher didn’t make you push. You prioritized short term gains. Stay the course if you believe in the strategy. Else you will never break the loop.
 

Creighton

Professional
You talked about the strategy. As multiple folks have mentioned there is nothing pusher about the strategy itself. At that point you mentioned how even those shots were nothing great. Then either seize control of the point or back to the drawing board. You can’t miss easy shots ( if those were easy) and then try to discredit your opponent at the same time.

Also the pusher didn’t make you push. You prioritized short term gains. Stay the course if you believe in the strategy. Else you will never break the loop.

Alright I see you're just wanting to argue to argue. Where did I discredit my opponent? I literally said he's better than me.

If we are at the point where dinking the ball short then dinking the ball long doesn't qualify a pushing the ball. Then pushing just doesn't exist in your world. But again, my opponent called himself a pusher last night after the match. So for most of us, we consider pushing to be an actual thing that exists.
 

mcs1970

Hall of Fame
Alright I see you're just wanting to argue to argue. Where did I discredit my opponent? I literally said he's better than me.

If we are at the point where dinking the ball short then dinking the ball long doesn't qualify a pushing the ball. Then pushing just doesn't exist in your world. But again, my opponent called himself a pusher last night after the match. So for most of us, we consider pushing to be an actual thing that exists.

You keep using the word “argue”. I don’t think you know what it means. You posted something and I and some others had a differing opinion. When you post on a message board you won’t get everyone to agree with you. If you feel any disagreement is argumentative, that’s more on you. Message boards are not an echo chamber.

Also you caved in and admitted to pushing yourself once you started losing. As long as you realize the pusher didn’t make you do that, and you stay the course next time and prioritze long term gains you can break the loop. All the best.
 

Creighton

Professional
You keep using the word “argue”. I don’t think you know what it means. You posted something and I and some others had a differing opinion. When you post on a message board you won’t get everyone to agree with you. If you feel any disagreement is argumentative, that’s more on you. Message boards are not an echo chamber.

I guess I need to be more frank with you. You're just wanting to cause confrontation. You're not actually trying to discuss anything with merit. You're just trying to make underhanded insults.

I don't care if you actually agree with me. You're just not even discussing the actual merits. Which is why you've refrained from even attempting to define with a pusher would be in your world. But you're maintaining that ambiguity because you know once you define pushing you'll contradict yourself. That's why you're just looking for confrontation because your "argument" isn't in good faith. @socallefty at least just quit responding when he realized he was going to be stuck trying to argue bunting the ball isn't pushing.

Also you caved in and admitted to pushing yourself once you started losing. As long as you realize the pusher didn’t make you do that, and you stay the course next time and prioritze long term gains you can break the loop. All the best.

Again with the underhanded insults. You "caved." You intend that as an insult. But most people would just say I just started playing smarter tennis and took the match to a third set tiebreak.

Now I'll ask you to explain how losing 6-2, 6-0 would have led to long term gains and "break the loop"?
 

Bud

Bionic Poster
Got whooped by a pusher tonight. Drop shot short then lob deep all night long.

The worst part is it made me start pushing back to win the second set :sick:

But I wasn't good enough to win the tiebreak.
Have to mix in corner to corner at medium pace until said pusher coughs up a short ball to be put away at net :cool:
 

Creighton

Professional
Have to mix in corner to corner at medium pace until said pusher coughs up a short ball to be put away at net :cool:

That's exactly what I did once I got down 0-3 in the second set. Just wasn't consistent enough to get the third set tiebreak. I think I would have gotten him on a full third set though.
 

toby55555

Hall of Fame
No such word exists in the English language
I was called a ‘conservative’ player this afternoon by an opponent reduced to throwing his racket at the fence three times because I wasn’t giving him the pace he wanted apparently. Fact is most points are won by mistakes, I play as aggressively as I have to, it was up to him to force the issue instead of making countless unforced errors.
 

ChrisJR3264

Hall of Fame
yeah i was talking more in general, not saying you were saying wrong things, i lost my first tournaments to "pushers" some loses were ok , but others really hit hard as it was difficult to see how someone who didnt accelerate one ball could beat me like that, but it was the thing that really made me improve my game, the important thing, dont avoid "pushers" play them as often as you can, then the players who are willing to miss a bit more will become easy to beat, nowadays i beat 6-1, 6-1 pushers that used to make me go crazy by being smarter than me, its a part of tennis you have to go trough if you want to improve, you have to be able to find solutions against every kind of player
I played college tennis. Kept up with it in summer leagues for a few years. Moved down south for a job then took 3-4 years off. First tourney I played in 4.0+ and got bageled in the first set lol. Tour my abdomen in the second while up 4-2.

In the first 6 months I lost to 2 pushers that I now beat pretty easily. Just be patient and find their weakness.
 

Pass750

Professional
I was called a ‘conservative’ player this afternoon by an opponent reduced to throwing his racket at the fence three times because I wasn’t giving him the pace he wanted apparently. Fact is most points are won by mistakes, I play as aggressively as I have to, it was up to him to force the issue instead of making countless unforced errors.
Exactly. If the opponent can’t keep the ball in play and has no rally tolerance the smart thing to do is play the percentages and not take any unnecessary chances. And head cases like the guy you played don’t realize you have weapons you never had to use because your biggest weapon was his own incompetent play.
 

Fintft

G.O.A.T.
I played college tennis. Kept up with it in summer leagues for a few years. Moved down south for a job then took 3-4 years off. First tourney I played in 4.0+ and got bageled in the first set lol. Tour my abdomen in the second while up 4-2.

In the first 6 months I lost to 2 pushers that I now beat pretty easily. Just be patient and find their weakness.
I agree with most of your post, but maybe not about "finding the pushers weakness"...We were talking above about Sabalenka and at least speaking for myself, I am in full Sabalenka mode against pushers. At the most I might concede to hit behind them or drop shot them once in a while, but the bread and butter is to hit thru them or away from them with pace.
 

ChrisJR3264

Hall of Fame
I agree with most of your post, but maybe not about "finding the pushers weakness"...We were talking above about Sabalenka and at least speaking for myself, I am in full Sabalenka mode against pushers. At the most I might concede to hit behind them or drop shot them once in a while, but the bread and butter is to hit thru them or away from them with pace.
Oh I’m an aggressive baseline as well. I’ve improved my net game to end points quickly against pushers. Now I love serve and volleying but I like to mix things up to throw my opponents off.
 

toby55555

Hall of Fame
Wouldn't that be a sign he as trying to force the issue?
Fair point but he was impatient and playing above his ability; his remark clearly aimed at me that he’d ‘rather not play at all than not go for my shots’ shows he puts style over substance. I can struggle against net rushers, not so much baseline bashers but maybe he can’t volley (nor can I in matches).
 

ChrisJR3264

Hall of Fame
Fair point but he was impatient and playing above his ability; his remark clearly aimed at me that he’d ‘rather not play at all than not go for my shots’ shows he puts style over substance. I can struggle against net rushers, not so much baseline bashers but maybe he can’t volley (nor can I in matches).
Gotta learn to volley and cover the net at any level. Even if you come in 20-30% of the match.
 

MisterP

Hall of Fame
There’s one of him making an absolute howler of a call when he went up to Milwaukee to play Ian. I can’t remember which match it was. But it was on the ad side, iirc, and it was like a foot inside the line. They did a slowmo replay on it.

Just goes to show, everybody makes bad calls from time to time. Or that pushers are inherently evil people. Depends on your perspective, I suppose.

At 13:54 mins.
 

Creighton

Professional
Fair point but he was impatient and playing above his ability; his remark clearly aimed at me that he’d ‘rather not play at all than not go for my shots’ shows he puts style over substance. I can struggle against net rushers, not so much baseline bashers but maybe he can’t volley (nor can I in matches).

I think this really sums up the duality of this entire conversation. You have one poster saying I was wrong to change my game plan to put substance over style. Then you're saying someone was wrong by putting style over substance.

It's interesting how the topic of pushing doesn't get much genuine discussion.
 
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Fintft

G.O.A.T.
I think this really sums up the duality of this entire conversation. You have one poster saying I was wrong to change my game plan to put substance over style. Then you're saying someone was wrong by putting style over substance.

It's interesting how the topic of pushing doesn't get much genuine discussion.
Some of us spoke genuinly.
 

Chalkdust

Professional
I think this really sums up the duality of this entire conversation. You have one poster saying I was wrong to change my game plan to put substance over style. Then you're saying someone was wrong by putting style over substance.

It's interesting how the topic of pushing doesn't get much genuine discussion.
Both perspectives can be true. Depends on whether one prioritizes short-term results or long-term results. And also depends on how important winning is versus enjoying the activity of playing.
 

MisterP

Hall of Fame
The phrase “play within yourself” comes to mind. I don’t know if I hit the ball hard or not for a 4.0 but I know that when I dial everything down and focus on margins and placement it *feels* like I’m hitting at 40%. And I still miss shots! But when I do this I almost always play a higher quality match, if not win.

Is that pushing? Probably looks like it to some people. And to some extent it feels that way because I’m taking very little risk. At least compared to how my instincts tell me to play.
 

zaskar1

Professional
Played my first tournament match last night and it was a humbling one. I played a 55 year old pusher who just got everything back. It made me realise how unfit, inconsistent and impatient I am. It also made me realise that if I am to play more tournaments, I will probably encounter pushers more than often. So my plan forward is to incorporate playing pushers at least once in 2 weeks.
pico
i feel your pain. i played a real pusher, this little guy who has no shots that can hurt your, but just pushes the ball back in play, no pace.
i practiced with him and he would say after we each hit the ball 15 or 20 times, just hit it back one more time!
when we finally played a match, he was killing me.
i was down 0-4, so i decide to serve and volley everything.
fortunately he never lobbed, so i was just barely able to squeak out a win.
after the match, he told me the serve and volleying was disturbing to him.
pushers are like any other opponent, they have some weakness.
you just have figure out what it is
z
 

Fairhit

Hall of Fame
When I first started playing, I used to be proud of my technique and strokes, I felt like a great player until I met a "pusher", the real deal, just bunting balls, no counter attack, no pace, no strategy beyond bunting the ball back. I thank that guy for teaching me that tennis is won by making one good shot mire than my opponent and not by style.

I never underestimated again any opponent, if he has ugly technique but can beat me, he's the better player, as simple as that.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
pico
i feel your pain. i played a real pusher, this little guy who has no shots that can hurt your, but just pushes the ball back in play, no pace.
i practiced with him and he would say after we each hit the ball 15 or 20 times, just hit it back one more time!
when we finally played a match, he was killing me.
i was down 0-4, so i decide to serve and volley everything.
fortunately he never lobbed, so i was just barely able to squeak out a win.
after the match, he told me the serve and volleying was disturbing to him.
pushers are like any other opponent, they have some weakness.
you just have figure out what it is
z

Attacking the net takes the pusher out of his comfort zone:

- You are forcing the action: "Pass me or I might hit a winner." Pushers hate being pushed [pun intended] into a corner like this, even if it means higher reward: they don't like the higher risk.
- You take away their most confident shot: a floaty ball DTM.

A good pusher, though, will be a good lobber so your OH better be tuned up.
 

MisterP

Hall of Fame
Attacking the net takes the pusher out of his comfort zone:

- You are forcing the action: "Pass me or I might hit a winner." Pushers hate being pushed [pun intended] into a corner like this, even if it means higher reward: they don't like the higher risk.
- You take away their most confident shot: a floaty ball DTM.

A good pusher, though, will be a good lobber so your OH better be tuned up.
I feel like most decent pushers I’ve played against know exactly what to do against someone who attacks the net. They typically have a great lob or are able to find a junky pass on one side or the other. Which doesn’t make it the wrong play, just saying I think they are looking for this play and know what to do about it.

Bringing them to net, on the other hand? That’s a different story.
 

fundrazer

G.O.A.T.
I feel like most decent pushers I’ve played against know exactly what to do against someone who attacks the net. They typically have a great lob or are able to find a junky pass on one side or the other. Which doesn’t make it the wrong play, just saying I think they are looking for this play and know what to do about it.

Bringing them to net, on the other hand? That’s a different story.
Think I would agree about bringing them to net. Sort of related to that also, a play that I like against some pushers is a short bh slice. They usually won't do much with the ball, either a weak approach or giving you something short back that you can step into and attack. Tends to work out for me sometimes because as they're backpedaling towards the basleine, I can step in and hit something deep putting them into a tough spot.

Would say don't go to net yourself just for the sake of going to net or thinking you can apply pressure. If you get good opportunities, sure, go for it. But it's important to hit solid approach shots, otherwise you'll probably just get punished moer often than not.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
I feel like most decent pushers I’ve played against know exactly what to do against someone who attacks the net. They typically have a great lob or are able to find a junky pass on one side or the other. Which doesn’t make it the wrong play, just saying I think they are looking for this play and know what to do about it.

Bringing them to net, on the other hand? That’s a different story.

The pushers I've played [there aren't that many at 4.5] could not hit their passes consistently enough to make a difference; they know what to do but it's a question of execution. They typically are not accustomed to the opponent constantly attacking the net, IME. I'm willing to give up the lines, which is about 20%; I'll take the other 80% and hope my volleys are working that day.

Agreed with bringing them to the net but I get more enjoyment from attacking so I'll stick with plan A unless it's not working.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
Think I would agree about bringing them to net. Sort of related to that also, a play that I like against some pushers is a short bh slice. They usually won't do much with the ball, either a weak approach or giving you something short back that you can step into and attack. Tends to work out for me sometimes because as they're backpedaling towards the basleine, I can step in and hit something deep putting them into a tough spot.

Would say don't go to net yourself just for the sake of going to net or thinking you can apply pressure. If you get good opportunities, sure, go for it. But it's important to hit solid approach shots, otherwise you'll probably just get punished moer often than not.

You're in good company: Federer used that sharp, short angle slice to perfection.

I'm a net-crasher [my username sort of gives it away] so I go to the net at the drop of a hat...maybe even if the hat doesn't drop. Same-level pushers typically don't have the passing shots to beat me; counterpunchers are a different story.
 

Jono123

Professional
What's interesting about Pushers is they play percentage tennis. No free points, no charity. It's no wonder they can cause lower 4.0 a real headache as their game has holes and they're not versatile enough to adapt.

That MEP/ Scott video is an example. Poor volleying, erratic smashes and no drop shot to get his opponent off the B line.
 
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