Got whooped by a 55 year old pusher in my first tournament match

Jono123 said:
What's interesting about Pushers is they play percentage tennis. No free points, no charity. It's no wonder they can cause lower 4.0 a real headache as their game has holes and they're not versatile enough to adapt.

That MEP/ Scott video is an example. Poor volleying, erratic smashes and no drop shot to get his opponent off the B line.
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Except that MEP is a high 4.5 in ATL which means he is routinely mowing down mid to high 4.5s with that style.
 
MisterP said:
Except that MEP is a high 4.5 in ATL which means he is routinely mowing down mid to high 4.5s with that style.
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It is confusing isn't it? On the one hand he is winning some matches in ATL, which we all have heard is a powerhouse, on the other hand he wouldn't be selected to play singles for most 4.0 teams that are scheming for success in regionals or nationals unless he is an amazing doubles player, but that's hard to imagine.
 
FuzzyYellowBalls said:
It is confusing isn't it? On the one hand he is winning some matches in ATL, which we all have heard is a powerhouse, on the other hand he wouldn't be selected to play singles for most 4.0 teams that are scheming for success in regionals or nationals unless he is an amazing doubles player, but that's hard to imagine.
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Ian kind of talked about it in one of the videos how it's strange how MEP is beating most 4.5s in Atlanta then struggling with 4.0s in Milwaukee.

It seems that Atlanta probably has more accurate ratings than others with all the tennis they play. I played in GA and now play in Philadelphia and the Philadelphia ratings are definitely deflated compared to the GA ratings. But with GA playing essentially two seasons every year it gives the honest players a much better rating.
 
Creighton said:
Ian kind of talked about it in one of the videos how it's strange how MEP is beating most 4.5s in Atlanta then struggling with 4.0s in Milwaukee.

It seems that Atlanta probably has more accurate ratings than others with all the tennis they play. I played in GA and now play in Philadelphia and the Philadelphia ratings are definitely deflated compared to the GA ratings. But with GA playing essentially two seasons every year it gives the honest players a much better rating.
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That's almost more confusing! Good info though. Texas had a funny 2 season situation where one season , if you won it, you went to state automatically after the real season, the other season, but good teams didn't care about that automatic bid, they used the 2nd season to tank their ratings for the real season and just won the real season anyway. So, TX had to make that 2nd season NOT count toward NTRP.
 
S&V-not_dead_yet said:
You're in good company: Federer used that sharp, short angle slice to perfection.

I'm a net-crasher [my username sort of gives it away] so I go to the net at the drop of a hat...maybe even if the hat doesn't drop. Same-level pushers typically don't have the passing shots to beat me; counterpunchers are a different story.
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Are you in the LA area? Let's play the next time I make it out there. S&V and net-crashers are my least favorite type of players to play because they force me to hit passing shots and can get to the net before I do.
 
Creighton said:
Ian kind of talked about it in one of the videos how it's strange how MEP is beating most 4.5s in Atlanta then struggling with 4.0s in Milwaukee.

It seems that Atlanta probably has more accurate ratings than others with all the tennis they play. I played in GA and now play in Philadelphia and the Philadelphia ratings are definitely deflated compared to the GA ratings. But with GA playing essentially two seasons every year it gives the honest players a much better rating.
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I think some of it has to do with that fact that he played alll of those matches indoors on a faster surface. I think it was MEP's first time playing indoors if I recall correctly. Also, most of the Milwaukee guys he played were average to strong 4.5's. Maybe one guy was a 4.0, I don't remember multiple guys at that level.
 
FuzzyYellowBalls said:
That's almost more confusing! Good info though. Texas had a funny 2 season situation where one season , if you won it, you went to state automatically after the real season, the other season, but good teams didn't care about that automatic bid, they used the 2nd season to tank their ratings for the real season and just won the real season anyway. So, TX had to make that 2nd season NOT count toward NTRP.
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Yeah I remember Texas had the big cheating situation with their winter league. Did their winter league advance to playoffs or not?

In Atlanta both leagues advanced to playoffs. But with so many teams and such a large playoff system just to get out of the local league, very few could actually afford to just tank the regular season away. Of course some did, but with that amount of teams you're only playing them once and not several times a year. So MEP is mostly playing players just out there playing and not gunning for titles.

The weird thing for me up here is how obsessed people are with mixed. I got a guy who doesn't want to play adult league matches right now because he's so afraid of missing out on dominating mixed next year. It's the inverse of ATL where we play two mixed seasons and only one adult season. Weird.
 
Creighton said:
Yeah I remember Texas had the big cheating situation with their winter league. Did their winter league advance to playoffs or not?

In Atlanta both leagues advanced to playoffs. But with so many teams and such a large playoff system just to get out of the local league, very few could actually afford to just tank the regular season away. Of course some did, but with that amount of teams you're only playing them once and not several times a year. So MEP is mostly playing players just out there playing and not gunning for titles.

The weird thing for me up here is how obsessed people are with mixed. I got a guy who doesn't want to play adult league matches right now because he's so afraid of missing out on dominating mixed next year. It's the inverse of ATL where we play two mixed seasons and only one adult season. Weird.
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Yes, the word salad I wrote wasn't that clear, so the "winter" league winner would get an automatic pass to go to state, avoiding the playoffs . I think also at some point the winter league winner got nothing. But, either way, it wasn't enough to prevent teams from using that league as tank- a - thon. That way they could tank that league and play for real in the other season and just dominate playoffs too. Then they had to make that winter league not count toward NTRP to stop the abuse.

Some people love mixed. There was one Dallas guy who was probably a low 4.5 in reality, but older so he was on mixed teams in Ft. Worth and Dallas every season at all age brackets tanking to 4.0 or 3.5 and would make nationals on 3-5 teams a year for years on years on years. The Dallas section of USTA started making rules that were for everyone, but really targeted at him, saying yiu couldn't go to nationals on more than 1 or 2 teams or something in consecutive years. Something like that.

I think there is more scheming in mixed to get to nationals, but less real tennis competition, as in people are planning to get to nationals but working the system and focusing on mixed, not even thinking about improving. Even using same sex leagues to tank for mixed. Maybe there is a swingers club at nationals and they all want to go every year.
 
S&V-not_dead_yet said:
You're in good company: Federer used that sharp, short angle slice to perfection.

I'm a net-crasher [my username sort of gives it away] so I go to the net at the drop of a hat...maybe even if the hat doesn't drop. Same-level pushers typically don't have the passing shots to beat me; counterpunchers are a different story.
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If that's your bread and butter, sure. Pretty sure I've seen some clips of your play that you've posted here, so I know you've got good net skills too (y)

Was mostly a trying to suggest that if going to net isn't somebody's strong skillset, don't just do it because you think it puts pressure on opponent or di it willy-nilly.
 
MisterP said:
I feel like most decent pushers I’ve played against know exactly what to do against someone who attacks the net. They typically have a great lob or are able to find a junky pass on one side or the other. Which doesn’t make it the wrong play, just saying I think they are looking for this play and know what to do about it.

Bringing them to net, on the other hand? That’s a different story.
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I feel like they’re more advanced counter punchers than pushers. But that’s my idea. I played one last night and they sliced everything. Didn’t lob their ground strokes been when I came to the net the lobs were perfectly execute 90% of the match.

Also for anyone who plays this style make sure you’re in shape. Bc the goal is to grind out your opponent but be willing to grind with him. My opponent wore himself out in long rallies lol
 
MisterP said:
He would be if they bothered to look at his singles record in 4.5.
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No, that record doesn't matter, solid 4.0 singles players on those kinds of teams would handle him easily. There's two different USTA worlds, the team world where the best players are gunning for post season success (and probably managing their rating )and everyone else.
 
FuzzyYellowBalls said:
No, that record doesn't matter, solid 4.0 singles players on those kinds of teams would handle him easily. There's two different USTA worlds, the team world where the best players are gunning for post season success and everyone else.
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And you guys always, always fail to understand how matchups affect results. Just because player A beats player B and player B beats player C it in no way means that Player C can’t or won’t beat player A.

Saying MEP isnt a 4.5 because he’d never make a 4.0 nationals team is bogus anyway. 4.5 leagues are filled to the brim with players who have and never will go to nationals.
 
MisterP said:
And you guys always, always fail to understand how matchups affect results. Just because player A beats player B and player B beats player C it in no way means that Player C can’t or won’t beat player A.

Saying MEP isnt a 4.5 because he’d never make a 4.0 nationals team is bogus anyway. 4.5 leagues are filled to the brim with players who have and never will go to nationals.
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Well, who are "you guys"? I guess a group of forum members I am being included in? Do take in the concept @Creighton remarked on and I suppose there is already video with Ian explaining this a little bit, but I haven't seen it. What you say is very true about A...B...C etc. . I am simply disputing your opinion that MEP is a "high 4.5", not simply a rated 4.5 which is a little different than what you wrote above, by explaining he isn't a "high 4.0".
 
fundrazer said:
If that's your bread and butter, sure. Pretty sure I've seen some clips of your play that you've posted here, so I know you've got good net skills too (y)

Was mostly a trying to suggest that if going to net isn't somebody's strong skillset, don't just do it because you think it puts pressure on opponent or di it willy-nilly.
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Thanks; you may have seen my set with @MaxTennis, which was a heck of a lot of fun and captured for posterity by @mad dog1.

If someone is losing to a pusher and doesn't see things turning around, coming to the net might at least put some pressure on the pusher because now he has to attempt a pass. He might succeed with flying colors but it forces him to get out of his comfort zone, which he wants to avoid at all costs.

So I'm not claiming it's a magic solution, just that it makes the typical pusher uncomfortable. It's certainly worth a shot if you feel like you're going to lose anyway. Consider it from the pusher's perspective: he's highly confident that if the status quo is maintained, he's going to win. The opponent making a radical change is just the sort of deviation from the status quo that the pusher doesn't want.
 
S&V-not_dead_yet said:
Thanks; you may have seen my set with @MaxTennis, which was a heck of a lot of fun and captured for posterity by @mad dog1.

If someone is losing to a pusher and doesn't see things turning around, coming to the net might at least put some pressure on the pusher because now he has to attempt a pass. He might succeed with flying colors but it forces him to get out of his comfort zone, which he wants to avoid at all costs.

So I'm not claiming it's a magic solution, just that it makes the typical pusher uncomfortable. It's certainly worth a shot if you feel like you're going to lose anyway. Consider it from the pusher's perspective: he's highly confident that if the status quo is maintained, he's going to win. The opponent making a radical change is just the sort of deviation from the status quo that the pusher doesn't want.
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Only works of you have a good overhead bc the first thing a pusher will attempt is a lob.

I like using lobs when someone comes to the net to test their ability to cover lobs. It also might back then up and make my future passing shots easier.

If they can stay close to the net and still get back in time to hit an overhead, then I am doomed.
 
MisterP said:
And you guys always, always fail to understand how matchups affect results. Just because player A beats player B and player B beats player C it in no way means that Player C can’t or won’t beat player A.

Saying MEP isnt a 4.5 because he’d never make a 4.0 nationals team is bogus anyway. 4.5 leagues are filled to the brim with players who have and never will go to nationals.
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Someone can attain a higher ranking by gaming the system. The NTRP has a clear definition of rating based on tennis ability & skills which define that level.

Unfortunately, 4.5 does not site junkballing as the main attribute. If it walks like a duck..........
 
onehandbh said:
Only works of you have a good overhead bc the first thing a pusher will attempt is a lob.

I like using lobs when someone comes to the net to test their ability to cover lobs. It also might back then up and make my future passing shots easier.

If they can stay close to the net and still get back in time to hit an overhead, then I am doomed.
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For sure: the lob is the lowest-risk way of attempting to deal with a net-crasher. I like my OH and mobility a lot but add in some gusty wind and mid-day sun and the game could change.
 
Jono123 said:
Someone can attain a higher ranking by gaming the system. The NTRP has a clear definition of rating based on tennis ability & skills which define that level.

Unfortunately, 4.5 does not site junkballing as the main attribute. If it walks like a duck..........
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It's giving general, broad characteristics. There are always outliers and MEP is a giant outlier. He's also extremely successful at 4.5 which means he's a 4.5, no matter what aesthetic he strikes.

Good thing for MEP that he doesn't have to submit a description of his gamestyle to be "rated" by someone reading from a cookie cutter skills list.

And nowhere on that list is mental toughness and the ability to adapt and overcome [something MEP is extremely good at, possibly partly in due to his Marine Corps training].
 
S&V-not_dead_yet said:
It's giving general, broad characteristics. There are always outliers and MEP is a giant outlier. He's also extremely successful at 4.5 which means he's a 4.5, no matter what aesthetic he strikes.

Good thing for MEP that he doesn't have to submit a description of his gamestyle to be "rated" by someone reading from a cookie cutter skills list.

And nowhere on that list is mental toughness and the ability to adapt and overcome [something MEP is extremely good at, possibly partly in due to his Marine Corps training].
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MEP is a tricky player, no question. Things like mental toughness etc are all assets making him something of an anomaly.

I still don't think he would overcome a strong 4.5 player. They are not as charitable as Scott.
 
Jono123 said:
MEP is a tricky player, no question. Things like mental toughness etc are all assets making him something of an anomaly.

I still don't think he would overcome a strong 4.5 player. They are not as charitable as Scott.
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It depends on how mentally tough those 4.5s are. I'm pretty sure MEP has beaten 4.5s with higher UTRs [since we can't see DNTRP] and better strokes.

Mental toughness is highly under-rated, IMO.
 
Mental toughness influences so many aspects of tennis, and not just your ability to perform on match point or in a tie breaker.
People who have erratic serve tosses, the yips...it's mental.
Anyone who says they can't volley/won't play the net in dubs, or won't hit an overhead and don't have a physical limitation...it's a mental block.
People who get flustered playing "pushers"....it's mental.
People who get angry by opponents playing mind games that are within the rules...mental weakness.
People who have to employ mind games...you are showing weakness.
People (me) who cuss or berate themself over a mistake....weakness.
Played with a guy that was bit ching about birds chirping....smh.

Everybody makes mistakes on match point...that happens. Everyone has lost a service game up 40-0....it happens.
That is just tennis where nobody is perfect. Like S&V said, mental toughness is highly underrated.
 
Mongolmike said:
Mental toughness influences so many aspects of tennis, and not just your ability to perform on match point or in a tie breaker.
People who have erratic serve tosses, the yips...it's mental.
Anyone who says they can't volley/won't play the net in dubs, or won't hit an overhead and don't have a physical limitation...it's a mental block.
People who get flustered playing "pushers"....it's mental.
People who get angry by opponents playing mind games that are within the rules...mental weakness.
People who have to employ mind games...you are showing weakness.
People (me) who cuss or berate themself over a mistake....weakness.
Played with a guy that was bit ching about birds chirping....smh.

Everybody makes mistakes on match point...that happens. Everyone has lost a service game up 40-0....it happens.
That is just tennis where nobody is perfect. Like S&V said, mental toughness is highly underrated.
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Well, I might quibble with #2 & 3:
- I've seen people with erratic tosses because they just weren't shown good technique

- The reticence to volley or OH could be more due to comfort zone issues [one could argue that's related to mental toughness but it's a stretch]. I know people my level [4.5] who are just supremely comfortable and confident on the BL but not so much at the net.

Other than that, I like your list. It's why Mental Toughness is one of the foundational 3Fs [Fitness, Footwork, Focus, and spacing].
 
pico said:
Played my first tournament match last night and it was a humbling one. I played a 55 year old pusher who just got everything back. It made me realise how unfit, inconsistent and impatient I am. It also made me realise that if I am to play more tournaments, I will probably encounter pushers more than often. So my plan forward is to incorporate playing pushers at least once in 2 weeks.
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So it's been a year and a half now, how is the plan going? Have you conquered those young 55 year old pushers?
 
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