Graf the greatest female player of all time on all surfaces

thalivest

Banned
It seems many disrespect the greatness of Steffi Graf. Most consider her the greatest women player of all time, but many consider Evert the greatest clay courter ever or Navratilova the greatest grass courter ever. That is disrespecting Graf's greatness as a player. Graf should be considered the greatest ever on all surfaces- grass, clay, hard courts, maybe possibly give carpet to Navratilova but that is it. People forget that Graf would have blown past Evert's record of 7 French Opens and Navratilova's record of 9 Wimbledons without her injuries which cut short her prime and career both by several years atleast.

Graf should undoubtably be considered the greatest hard court, grass court, and clay court women player ever, not just the greatest women player ever.
 

Tsonga#1fan

Semi-Pro
She certainly deserves to be mentioned with the greats and is probably the greatest all around player of all time. However, the argument cannot be justified that she may have won more without injury without mentioning that she may have not won as much had Monica Seles not been taken out. Seles clearly had Graff's number when that crazed German effectively ended that rivalry.
 

thalivest

Banned
She certainly deserves to be mentioned with the greats and is probably the greatest all around player of all time. However, the argument cannot be justified that she may have won more without injury without mentioning that she may have not won as much had Monica Seles not been taken out. Seles clearly had Graff's number when that crazed German effectively ended that rivalry.

While Monica is a great player I think Seles is overrated as far as her longevity and things like that. I believe her post stabbing career was exactly what it would have been, and shows that with her natural lack of athletic ability she would have time mantaining a peak level, staying healthy and fit, or mantaining an ideal body shape for the long haul, something I predicted of her even back in the early 90s when she was the dominant #1 during Graf's slump. Also I believe she would have had trouble coping with the increasing number of even bigger power hitters or more athletic women to come who were bad matchups for her unlike the early 90s top players (minus Graf). I think her matchup situation with Graf is also quite overrated in her favor in some peoples minds who only look at her winning 3 slams a year for a couple years. She never beat Graf on a medium or faster surface of any kind. She won the WTA Championships and U.S Opens she did win without facing Graf, and only proved a threat head to head on slower surfaces where Graf was still capable of beating her also as well. Her 2 year dominance was aided by Graf's slump and Graf making only 3 of the 13 biggest finals from 91-early 93 (this cant be blamed on Seles) as no other top players at the time were big threats to Seles. I believe she would have averaged only 1 slam per year from 1993-1996 before never winning another slam again after 1996. Since Seles already won the 1993 and 1996 Australian Open titles as it was that leaves only 2 other slams and 1 or both of them might have been slams Steffi didnt way anyway. So in the big picture I suspect Seles denied Graf only 0-2 slams total, more likely 0 or 1.

I think Graf's injuries which derailed her after 1996 prevented her from adding another 6 or more slams from 1997-1999 and possibly another 2 or 3 in what would have been her twilight years from 2000 to 2002. She likely would have won around 30 slams. Even if you disagree with me on Seles, Seles is irrelevant to Graf when it comes to Wimbledon and Graf's injuries (irregardless of Seles) prevented her from likely winning around 10 Wimbledons. She would have won easily in 97 and 98 the years Hingis and headcase Novotna won, and likely beaten Davenport in 99 as well.

As for clay Evert did not have the competition on clay that Graf and Seles did. I think in reality Graf and Seles are the 2 greatest clay courters ever, if they were in their primes with Evert I suspect both would have won more than she did.
 
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Tsonga#1fan

Semi-Pro
I cannot accept that Evert didn't have the clay competition. There have always been a few from every era that were above the rest, and Evert was clearly ahead of her competition on clay from that era. There is no way of knowing how they would have fared against one another. Most of your arguments are pure speculative. Graff's career didn't end from injury, although injuries were taking their toll. Simply put, she was in decline and chose to walk away from the game while she was near the top. There probobaly would have been no more slams left in her.
 

thalivest

Banned
I cannot accept that Evert didn't have the clay competition. There have always been a few from every era that were above the rest, and Evert was clearly ahead of her competition on clay from that era. There is no way of knowing how they would have fared against one another. Most of your arguments are pure speculative. Graff's career didn't end from injury, although injuries were taking their toll. Simply put, she was in decline and chose to walk away from the game while she was near the top. There probobaly would have been no more slams left in her.

The Graf and Seles era on clay had not only each other but Sanchez Vicario, Sabatini, Martinez, Pierce, Hingis, all expert clay courters who have won a ton of tier 1 titles and were regularly in contention on clay. Most of the Evert era on clay had Ruzici, Jausovec, Tomanova, King in her mid 30s on her by far worst surface, Wade who was even more hopeless on clay than King, and Goolagong on by far her worst surface, as her main competition on clay. Only Goolagong was a decent opponent. I have no doubt if you transport just one of Graf or Seles to the same time as Evert and have them play in Evert's place they win everything she does, probably even more as Evert's dominance on clay faded when some actual competition on the surface came with a prime Navratilova and Mandlikova.
 

Lionheart392

Professional
Seles would have crushed Graf for the remainder of the 90s had she not been stabbed.

Seles never 'crushed' Graf before the stabbing so I doubt she ever would have. Graf however 'crushed' Seles in the 1992 Wimbledon final and surely would have done so again if Seles had not been stabbed, given that after 1992 her form improved considerably.
 

thalivest

Banned
Seles would have crushed Graf for the remainder of the 90s had she not been stabbed.

Seles has never crushed Graf in a match on any surface even at her peak. the only crushing of the Graf-Seles rivalry was experienced when Seles set foot on grass with Graf, including the 92 Wimbledon final where the so called dominant #1 Monica Seles managed a measley 3 games. Crushing is also what Seles would later experience when she went onto court with Hingis, Venus, Serena, and Davenport.
 

ecurb

Banned
Seles has never crushed Graf in a match on any surface even at her peak. the only crushing of the Graf-Seles rivalry was experienced when Seles set foot on grass with Graf, including the 92 Wimbledon final where the so called dominant #1 Monica Seles managed a measley 3 games. Crushing is also what Seles would later experience when she went onto court with Hingis, Venus, Serena, and Davenport.

Seles was just entering her prime when she got stabbed. Graf was on her way out. Seles was the only real competition Graf had. No way Graf wins 22 majors with Seles there at her prime.
 

thalivest

Banned
Seles was just entering her prime when she got stabbed. Graf was on her way out. Seles was the only real competition Graf had. No way Graf wins 22 majors with Seles there at her prime.

if Graf was on her way out then how come she was playing much worse and losing much more often to Sabatini, an old Navratilova, Sanchez Vicario, in 91-early 93 then she would from 93-96? The period Seles dominated was one of the worst periods of tennis of Graf's career. Graf actually was starting to regain her form just before the Seles stabbing, and while Seles won their last meeting just before it was on Monica's favorite surface and Graf's worst (rebound ace) and still was a tough 3 setter. Graf in fact played much better up until the end of 96 after the Seles stabbing than she was most of Seles's time at #1.

if Seles was Graf's only competition then Seles had no competition in 91-92 as she was facing all the same players, and hardly ever facing Graf who was in such a career high slump she was losing to players she usually dominated and hardly ever making finals to even play Seles.
 

ecurb

Banned
if Graf was on her way out then how come she was playing much worse and losing much more often to Sabatini, an old Navratilova, Sanchez Vicario, in 91-early 93 then she would from 93-96? The period Seles dominated was one of the worst periods of tennis of Graf's career. Graf actually was starting to regain her form just before the Seles stabbing, and while Seles won their last meeting just before it was on Monica's favorite surface and Graf's worst (rebound ace) and still was a tough 3 setter. Graf in fact played much better up until the end of 96 after the Seles stabbing than she was most of Seles's time at #1.

if Seles was Graf's only competition then Seles had no competition in 91-92 as she was facing all the same players, and hardly ever facing Graf who was in such a career high slump she was losing to players she usually dominated and hardly ever making finals to even play Seles.

Because Seles was out. She regained her form because there was no else there to challenge her. Just a bunch of fat pushers. I agree neither Graf or Seles had any real competition (not making any weak era/strong era statement here). The slump would have continued for Graf had Seles been around. What you are missing is that Seles hadn't even reached her prime and was beating Graf who was a seasoned veteran by that time.
 
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thalivest

Banned
Because Seles was out. She regained her form because there was no else there to challenge her. Just a bunch of fat pushers. I agree neither Graf or Seles had any real competition (not making any weak era/strong era statement here). The slump would have continued for Graf had Seles been around. What you are missing is that Seles hadn't even reached her prime and was beating Graf who was a seasoned veteran by that time.

Seles being there or out does not explain why she was losing so often to Sabatini, Novotna, an past her prime Navratilova, and Sanchez Vicario so often from 91-early 93. Obviously her own form was not up to its usual standards irregardless of Seles. Seles being gone also does not explain why Graf now playing much better was no longer losing to those players other than Sanchez once in awhile (in fact only twice when Graf was injured).
 

ecurb

Banned
Seles being there or out does not explain why she was losing so often to Sabatini, Novotna, an past her prime Navratilova, and Sanchez Vicario so often from 91-early 93. Obviously her own form was not up to its usual standards irregardless of Seles. Seles being gone also does not explain why Graf now playing much better was no longer losing to those players other than Sanchez once in awhile (in fact only twice when Graf was injured).

Who cares what the reason was for the slump, the fact is that was her level of play during that time. You can't just pick and choose the moments when she played great and conclude that that is her. She is the sum total of her whole career. You could say the same thing for Seles, but stabbing is a special case I think most reasonable people would allow for. Bottom line is had Seles been around, Graf's numbers would not be as inflated and Martina would probably end up with the best numbers overall.
 

thalivest

Banned
Who cares what the reason was for the slump, the fact is that was her level of play during that time. You can't just pick and choose the moments when she played great and conclude that that is her. She is the sum total of her whole career. You could say the same thing for Seles, but stabbing is a special case I think most reasonable people would allow for. Bottom line is had Seles been around, Graf's numbers would not be as inflated and Martina would probably end up with the best numbers overall.

If you want to do more what ifs if the French and Australian Open were equally valued back then Evert would actually have many more slams than Martina and hardly anyone would consider Martina the greater player ever with her dominance of a now mostly past her prime Chris in the 80s. Navratilova wouldnt be anyones GOAT, she wouldnt even be the best of that generation anymore.

I am not disputing Seles's deserving all her titles in 91-92. Graf's slump was her own problem and thus she did not deserve to win many titles during her slump. Her slump is meaningful only in talking about Graf's future play and your claims on her only going down. How can she be only going down when she obviously played better in the years after the Seles stabbing, and your claim it was only due to Seles being out is obviousy false as Graf was now again as usual regularly beating players she was losing to often in 91-92 like Sabatini, Sanchez, Novotna, and an old Navratilova.
 

ecurb

Banned
If you want to do more what ifs if the French and Australian Open were equally valued back then Evert would actually have many more slams than Martina and hardly anyone would consider Martina the greater player ever with her dominance of a now mostly past her prime Chris in the 80s. Navratilova wouldnt be anyones GOAT, she wouldnt even be the best of that generation anymore.

I am not disputing Seles's deserving all her titles in 91-92. Graf's slump was her own problem and thus she did not deserve to win many titles during her slump. Her slump is meaningful only in talking about Graf's future play and your claims on her only going down. How can she be only going down when she obviously played better in the years after the Seles stabbing, and your claim it was only due to Seles being out is obviousy false as Graf was now again as usual regularly beating players she was losing to often in 91-92 like Sabatini, Sanchez, Novotna, and an old Navratilova.

I don't want to do what ifs, but Seles is a SPECIAL CASE. It has never happened before. You can't compare the Seles 'what if' to other 'what ifs'. Ok fine Graf played better after Seles went down, but that doesn't mean she would have beaten Seles. Seles was only getting better. And Seles was beating her before she was stabbed. Graf may have beaten the other players regularly coming out of her slump but she wouldn't have beaten Monica. Seles was too good. I'm not saying Monica would have ended with more majors but she was on a better pace than Graf, kinda like Rafa was as a teenager. For godsakes, Monica had 8 majors at 20 years of age and she was #1 in the world AND getting better!!! That's unfathomable. The difference is Seles would have continued to win at that pace because she was only getting better.
 
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ecurb

Banned
"Seles was the top women's player heading into 1993, having won the French Open three consecutive years and both the US Open and Australian Open in consecutive years. In January 1993, Seles defeated Graf in the final of the Australian Open, which to date was her third win in four Grand Slam finals with Graf."

I think that says it all. Seles would have toppled Graf after that.
 

ecurb

Banned
In 1991 and 1992 seles won 3 out of the 4 majors. She was doing a Federer for 2 consecutive years and then she got stabbed. She would have continued to have 3 or 4 more of those 3 slam years.
 

Ripster

Hall of Fame
Graf is undoubtedly the best ever period. However, I'd like to see a match on clay between Henin and Graf both in their primes.
 

boredone3456

G.O.A.T.
How is it disrespectful to Graf to state the facts I agree Graf in terms of all court ability is probably the most consistent and possibly best all surface player ever. But Martina and Chris can be argued as being over her on grass and clay respectfully. Evert was 200-1 over like 7 years on clay, even if the competition was not stellar that is still amazing, she was number 1 and blasting everyone off the court everywhere many times, but on clay much more so, Graf at her peak had competition closer to her skill level on clay, but its not Evert's fault the same cannot be said for her. No one was really close to her in the 1970's anyway, and even after she was still lightyears ahead of a lot of the competition. Same for Martina on Grass, heck Court is just as much up there as a grass court great, although her lackluster Wimbledon record and inflated australians hurt her she still is right up there to. As for her injuries, well its possible but in the same way you yourself criticize what ifs about Seles nothing with Graf can be proven Concretely, all we can go on is what we have now, and based on that Martina and Chris are very arguable as being over Graf on the single surfaces mentioned, even if Graf may be the greatest all surface player.

Edit: most people consider Graf the GOAT anyway, so what if she isn't also considered the GOAT ever on every surface indivudually, she has enough across the board merit.
 
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Centered

Hall of Fame
If Seles hadn't been stabbed she would have beaten Graf more than Graf would have beaten her.

There is a big asterisk next to Graf's legacy.
 

Centered

Hall of Fame
Graf is undoubtedly the best ever period.
I don't agree.

Graf was beating up players like Navratilova who were much much older than she was. She didn't have to learn and compete with the more challenging wood racquets when she was young like Navratilova and Evert had to. Seles was stabbed. Hingis beat herself in 98 at the French.

Graf was an amazing player, but she was also lucky, especially with Seles -- but also with Navratilova. If Navratilova had been 20 (with the same motivation she had much later, starting with Nancy Lieberman) when Graf was 18 or so, their rivalry would have been quite different.

Graf only has 11 wins in doubles. Navratilova has 192. Navratilova regularly played the doubles and mixed at slams and other tournaments in addition to singles. Excelling in doubles as well as singles is the mark of a great champion. Graf was an amazing singles player, but her doubles record is awful.
 

Lionheart392

Professional
If Seles hadn't been stabbed she would have beaten Graf more than Graf would have beaten her.

There is a big asterisk next to Graf's legacy.

Yawn. The head to head is 10-5 to Graf. Even with the stabbing Seles would not have lost 10 of 15 matches against Graf if she was that good.
 
As for clay Evert did not have the competition on clay that Graf and Seles did. I think in reality Graf and Seles are the 2 greatest clay courters ever, if they were in their primes with Evert I suspect both would have won more than she did.
Don't even try it.

Evert was and is still the greatest women's player to ever play on clay.
 

davey25

Banned
I don't agree.

Graf was beating up players like Navratilova who were much much older than she was. She didn't have to learn and compete with the more challenging wood racquets when she was young like Navratilova and Evert had to. Seles was stabbed. Hingis beat herself in 98 at the French.

Graf was an amazing player, but she was also lucky, especially with Seles -- but also with Navratilova. If Navratilova had been 20 (with the same motivation she had much later, starting with Nancy Lieberman) when Graf was 18 or so, their rivalry would have been quite different.

Graf only has 11 wins in doubles. Navratilova has 192. Navratilova regularly played the doubles and mixed at slams and other tournaments in addition to singles. Excelling in doubles as well as singles is the mark of a great champion. Graf was an amazing singles player, but her doubles record is awful.

If Navratilova had been 20 when Graf was 18, Graf would have dominated her even more easily, and probably now even when Martina finally reached her prime starting at 25 she still would have had a hard time overcoming Graf due to the mental block she would now have vs her because of all the ass whoopings she would have received to Graf during all her "pre prime" years. Navratilova did not begin her true "prime" until she was 25 years old. She didnt win her 3rd slam until after her 25th birthday, win 2 slams in the same year until after her 25th birthday, etc...Navratilova was a much better player in her early 30s and maybe even mid 30s than she was in the first half of her 20s. BTW she didnt even meet Nancy for the first time until she was 24 and soon to turn 25. In addition also forget Graf had to play matches with Martina when she was only 16 and 17 and Martina was still in her prime up until 1987 too, in fact 10 of their 18 matches took place during this time, so how was Graf any less unlucky in that sense?! The fact that you think Martina at 20 when she was losing in slams to Janet Newburry, a 31 year old Betty Stove, and Wendy Turnbull would have done well vs an 18 year Graf shows how clueless you really are to her career in the first place.

It is funny people talk about Martina as this old hag when she was only 29 or 30 and remember she didnt even get started in the big picture of what her career would be about until she was 25 and 26. It is a similar misconception clueless people have about Agassi as well. Also if Martina was supposably so old and past her prime at only 30 than Chris Evert who began her prime as a 17 year old must have been really old in her own career and way past her prime at ages 27 and 28 when Martina began to dominate the game and her. In that case I guess Martina got even luckier, either that or Chris's longevity is way beyond Martina's by your logic which would be another argument even Chris should rank over her.

Hingis and Graf did not play at the 98 French. They played at the 99 French. Graf was past her prime due to injuries at that point, heck if you consider the ultra late blooming Martina as some old hag at 29 and 30 then imagine what the early rising Graf at 30 after 3 years of horrible surgeries and injuries and soon to retire due to health problems was. The fact Hingis at her career peak still couldnt beat Graf in matches even then says it all. Are you trying to suggest even a lightweight like Hingis was superior to Graf, hahahah. Hingis is the one who was lucky Graf went down with injuries or she would have never reached #1 in the first place, and that she rose before the Williams emerged and when Lindsay was still a U Haul.
 
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If Seles hadn't been stabbed she would have beaten Graf more than Graf would have beaten her.

There is a big asterisk next to Graf's legacy.
There is no such imaginary asterick by Steffi Graf's name anywhere in sports history; book, magazine, autobiography, or otherwise.

If Seles had been more athletic and less overweight, she would have been able to challenge Graf post-stabbing. However, Seles was too undisciplined in comparison to Graf to maintain the level of sustained athleticism over the years it takes to be a GOAT.

Bottom line, Seles physically grew several inches from her peak #1 and added several, several pounds which hindered her grand slam progression as she aged. You can't blame the stabbing on that. No one forced food down Monica's throat.

Mother Marjorie has spoken.
 
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davey25

Banned
There is no such imaginary asterick by Steffi Graf's name anywhere in sports history; book, magazine, autobiography, or otherwise.

If Seles had been more athletic and less overweight, she would have been able to challenge Graf post-stabbing. However, Seles was too undisciplined in comparison to Graf to maintain the level of sustained athleticism over the years it takes to be a GOAT.

Bottom line, Seles physically grew several inches from her peak #1 and added several, several pounds which hindered her grand slam progression as she aged. You can't blame the stabbing on that.

Mother Marjorie has spoken.

Seles had everything going for her pre stabbing:

-Graf in a slump and hardly having to play her
-all the other players at the time easy matchup for her
-absolutely no injuries, health, or personal problems for almost 3 years (how likely was that to last)

This rosy perfect situation was not going to last forever and that is what we saw after the stabbing as well. Seles was a brilliant tennis player and ball striker but never the most gifted athlete. Her stick thin figure was never going to last as she got a bit older and as she began to suffer some of the inevitable injuries all players get. She already had gotten her first serious illness just before the stabbing which forced her to miss 6 weeks, and Hamburg being her first event back sine. In addition to that even if she were able to make every final she was not going to luck out to play Graf only 3 times in 34 months as was the case the period before the stabbing, nor were the remaining of the top 5 going to remain her pigeon Sanchez Vicario, another pigeon Sabatini, and a by now truly old Navratilova forever. It is funny how that people forget when Seles first returned some people predicted she would dominate and she didnt even come close, winning 1 slam the final 8 years of her career. Yet Seles fanatics assume people should still assume she still would have dominated for years. Umm sorry a huge NOOO.
 
Graf only has 11 wins in doubles. Navratilova has 192. Navratilova regularly played the doubles and mixed at slams and other tournaments in addition to singles. Excelling in doubles as well as singles is the mark of a great champion. Graf was an amazing singles player, but her doubles record is awful.
Doubles will get you into the Tennis Hall of Fame, but those accomplishments cannot make you the GOAT singles player.

Graf and Federer realized early on that an unhealthy attraction to doubles will not make you a GOAT.

An argument coulD be made that if Navratilova had focused less on doubles, her singles results might have been better earlier in her career.
 
Hingis and Graf did not play at the 98 French. They played at the 99 French. Graf was past her prime due to injuries at that point, heck if you consider the ultra late blooming Martina as some old hag at 29 and 30 then imagine what the early rising Graf at 30 after 3 years of horrible surgeries and injuries and soon to retire due to health problems was. The fact Hingis at her career peak still couldnt beat Graf in matches even then says it all. Are you trying to suggest even a lightweight like Hingis was superior to Graf, hahahah. Hingis is the one who was lucky Graf went down with injuries or she would have never reached #1 in the first place, and that she rose before the Williams emerged and when Lindsay was still a U Haul.
Mother Marjorie believes that Steffi Graf single-handedly ended the Grand Slam singles career of Martina Hingis in the finals of the '99 French Open.

Martina, having just won the '99 Australian Open, was reduced to tears in front of millions as the woman she once referred to a "has been" broke her game, spirit, and ultimately, her grand slam singles career.

Martina never won a grand slam singles event after that match. What Steffi Graf handed Martina Hingis was the ultimate payback in sports history, and had the enjoyment of an entire stadium cheering her victory in front of Hingis. Karma is a biotch. Its no wonder Hingis' career was later stained by a doping offense. No one crosses Steffi Graf. No one. :)
 
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davey25

Banned
Mother Marjorie believes that Steffi Graf single-handedly ended the Grand Slam singles career of Martina Hingis in the finals of the '99 French Open.

Martina, having just won the '99 Australian Open, was reduced to tears in front of millions as the woman she once called a "has been" broke her game, spirit, and ultimately, her grand slam singles career.

Martina never won a grand slam singles event after that match. What Steffi Graf handed Martina Hingis was the ultimate payback in sports history, and had the enjoyment of an entire stadium cheering her victory in front of Hingis. Karma is a biotch.

I agree with everything you said here. I dont think it any coincidence at all this was Martina's last slam. Graf got the last laugh here as she often does.
 

dannykl

Rookie
Very true. If Navratilova had been 20 when Graf was 18, Steffi would have dominated Martina more overwhelmingly.

If Navratilova had been 20 when Graf was 18, Graf would have dominated her even more easily, and probably now even when Martina finally reached her prime starting at 25 she still would have had a hard time overcoming Graf due to the mental block she would now have vs her because of all the ass whoopings she would have received to Graf during all her "pre prime" years. Navratilova did not begin her true "prime" until she was 25 years old. She didnt win her 3rd slam until after her 25th birthday, win 2 slams in the same year until after her 25th birthday, etc...Navratilova was a much better player in her early 30s and maybe even mid 30s than she was in the first half of her 20s. BTW she didnt even meet Nancy for the first time until she was 24 and soon to turn 25. In addition also forget Graf had to play matches with Martina when she was only 16 and 17 and Martina was still in her prime up until 1987 too, in fact 10 of their 18 matches took place during this time, so how was Graf any less unlucky in that sense?! The fact that you think Martina at 20 when she was losing in slams to Janet Newburry, a 31 year old Betty Stove, and Wendy Turnbull would have done well vs an 18 year Graf shows how clueless you really are to her career in the first place.

It is funny people talk about Martina as this old hag when she was only 29 or 30 and remember she didnt even get started in the big picture of what her career would be about until she was 25 and 26. It is a similar misconception clueless people have about Agassi as well. Also if Martina was supposably so old and past her prime at only 30 than Chris Evert who began her prime as a 17 year old must have been really old in her own career and way past her prime at ages 27 and 28 when Martina began to dominate the game and her. In that case I guess Martina got even luckier, either that or Chris's longevity is way beyond Martina's by your logic which would be another argument even Chris should rank over her.

Hingis and Graf did not play at the 98 French. They played at the 99 French. Graf was past her prime due to injuries at that point, heck if you consider the ultra late blooming Martina as some old hag at 29 and 30 then imagine what the early rising Graf at 30 after 3 years of horrible surgeries and injuries and soon to retire due to health problems was. The fact Hingis at her career peak still couldnt beat Graf in matches even then says it all. Are you trying to suggest even a lightweight like Hingis was superior to Graf, hahahah. Hingis is the one who was lucky Graf went down with injuries or she would have never reached #1 in the first place, and that she rose before the Williams emerged and when Lindsay was still a U Haul.
 

reversef

Hall of Fame
There is no such imaginary asterick by Steffi Graf's name anywhere in sports history; book, magazine, autobiography, or otherwise.

If Seles had been more athletic and less overweight, she would have been able to challenge Graf post-stabbing. However, Seles was too undisciplined in comparison to Graf to maintain the level of sustained athleticism over the years it takes to be a GOAT.

Bottom line, Seles physically grew several inches from her peak #1 and added several, several pounds which hindered her grand slam progression as she aged. You can't blame the stabbing on that. No one forced food down Monica's throat.

Mother Marjorie has spoken.

Can Mother Marjorie imagine how mentally destroyed Seles must have been after the stabbing? Everyone could see that she was not the same player anymore. What happened to Seles is one of the most scandalous and unfair things that happened in the game. And Graf benefited from it, like it or not.
 

reversef

Hall of Fame
Mother Marjorie believes that Steffi Graf single-handedly ended the Grand Slam singles career of Martina Hingis in the finals of the '99 French Open.

Martina, having just won the '99 Australian Open, was reduced to tears in front of millions as the woman she once referred to a "has been" broke her game, spirit, and ultimately, her grand slam singles career.

Martina never won a grand slam singles event after that match. What Steffi Graf handed Martina Hingis was the ultimate payback in sports history, and had the enjoyment of an entire stadium cheering her victory in front of Hingis. Karma is a biotch. Its no wonder Hingis' career was later stained by a doping offense. No one crosses Steffi Graf. No one. :)

What really hurt Hingis more than losing against Graf was the way it happened. Of course, she had been such a brat, making fun of other players like Mauresmo. But we know the class of the french crowd. That crowd showed once again that it doesn't deserve to have a Slam.
 

davey25

Banned
Can Mother Marjorie imagine how mentally destroyed Seles must have been after the stabbing? Everyone could see that she was not the same player anymore. What happened to Seles is one of the most scandalous and unfair things that happened in the game. And Graf benefited from it, like it or not.

She was not the same player since she was now facing women who could overpower her like Venus, Serena, Davenport, Graf, and on occasion Pierce, or women who could move her around the court like Hingis and Novotna, which didnt even exist before the stabbing other than Graf (who as already noted she only played once in awhile back then). All that plus she was an extremely early bloomer so she was never going to be near her prime level until she was almost 30 like some of her delusional fanatics seem to believe, and she actually started to get injuries, have personal problems, grow out of her then rail thin body, all things that would have happend regardless of the stabbing. When she played Sanchez Vicario, Conchita Martinez, Mary Joe Fernandez, and Anke Huber she still looked like the same player aside from the extra gut, unfortunately those werent the only players in the top 10 anymore.
 

thalivest

Banned
What really hurt Hingis more than losing against Graf was the way it happened. Of course, she had been such a brat, making fun of other players like Mauresmo. But we know the class of the french crowd. That crowd showed once again that it doesn't deserve to have a Slam.

Hingis got what she deserved. Displaying her homophobia so brazenly to make such comments towards another player (half a man), and being so short sighted to forget or not care that the next grand slam coming up was in the home country of said player. Dumping her doubles partner by calling her "old and slow". Calling a legend like Graf washed up and saying the game was too fast for her then (Hingis faster hitting or moving than Graf, LOL!) . Crossing over the net to point out what you think was where the ball landed on not even an important point. She showed such astounding ignorance she got what had been coming to her for a long time. Bravo Paris!
 

reversef

Hall of Fame
She was not the same player since she was now facing women who could overpower her like Venus, Serena, Davenport, Graf, and on occasion Pierce, or women who could move her around the court like Hingis and Novotna, which didnt even exist before the stabbing other than Graf (who as already noted she only played once in awhile back then). All that plus she was an extremely early bloomer so she was never going to be near her prime level until she was almost 30 like some of her delusional fanatics seem to believe, and she actually started to get injuries, have personal problems, grow out of her then rail thin body, all things that would have happend regardless of the stabbing. When she played Sanchez Vicario, Conchita Martinez, Mary Joe Fernandez, and Anke Huber she still looked like the same player aside from the extra gut, unfortunately those werent the only players in the top 10 anymore.

Seles did not only become mentally much less strong and overweight, she also missed a step. She was not there for more than 2 years. Coming back is very difficult. If you can't see how difficult it must have been for her, there is nothing I can say. I'm not even a Seles fan, but I can see the obvious.
 

reversef

Hall of Fame
Hingis got what she deserved. Displaying her homophobia so brazenly to make such comments towards another player (half a man), and being so short sighted to forget or not care that the next grand slam coming up was in the home country of said player. Dumping her doubles partner by calling her "old and slow". Calling a legend like Graf washed up and saying the game was too fast for her then (Hingis faster hitting or moving than Graf, LOL!) . Crossing over the net to point out what you think was where the ball landed on not even an important point. She showed such astounding ignorance she got what had been coming to her for a long time. Bravo Paris!

I told you, Hingis was a brat, it's true. But she would have been badly treated EVEN without that. The crowd wanted to see Graf win and the Parisians will do everything for that. Do you remember what happened to the guy of your avatar last year? Not me. Henin cheated, Serena Williams got booed for her. Sanchez-Vicario was also used to get bad treatments. See her against Graf in 1996. En effet, Bravo Paris! Il n'y a pas de quoi être fier.
 

davey25

Banned
Seles did not only become mentally much less strong and overweight, she also missed a step. She was not there for more han 2 years. Coming back is very difficult. If you can't see how difficult it must have been for her, there is nothing I can say. I'm not even a Seles fan, ut I can see the obvious.

She had almost 3 years to get over it and get herself back into shape. Then after she returned she had over 7 more years to still do that. If she couldnt be bothered to get herself back in prime fighting shape through all those years then that is her problem at that point. She certainly doesnt deserve everyones benefit of doubt for another 10 years and people presuming she was going to win many more slams than she actually probably ever would have as some kind of pity compenstation to her. Plus the fact there is ZERO evidence of her dominating long term the way her fanatics seems to like to believe. 2 years of dominance does not translate into a decade of it, and even during her so called dominance she couldnt even come close to winning on grass. Many of the players on tour in her post stabbing years werent even the same players as before, and ones that were the same like Sanchez Vicario, Martinez, Huber, Fernandez, she handled just as easily as before.

Her performances vs Graf post stabbing didnt surprise me at all either. Why should losing to Graf at the U.S Open surprise me when she has never beaten Graf on anything but rebound ace or clay. Her performances vs Graf head to head were the same as pre stabbing, always losing on a faster surface, could go either way on clay, winning on rebound ace. The difference is Graf was making every final unlike the Seles dominance years, and then when Graf went down with injuries the near gaurd I spoke of were there for Seles to face as well.

In addition her problems with a still growing and changing body when she lacked in natural athletic ability/desire to gym train like many others to begin with, her recurring shoulder and foot problems, and her personal tragedy off court like her fathers illness, are things that were going to be there regardless of the stabbing. Things that didnt exist in the few years before, but such was not going to last forever.
 
D

Deleted member 21996

Guest
Can Mother Marjorie imagine how mentally destroyed Seles must have been after the stabbing? Everyone could see that she was not the same player anymore. What happened to Seles is one of the most scandalous and unfair things that happened in the game. And Graf benefited from it, like it or not.

I Know Mother Marjorie. Mother Marjorie is Good enough to like you too... she understands that you need love!

but Can Reversef explain why Seles won the 1996 Slam? did she overcome the Parche incident by then? :)
 
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reversef

Hall of Fame
She had almost 3 years to get over it and get herself back into shape. Then after she returned she had over 7 more years to still do that. If she couldnt be bothered to get herself back in prime fighting shape through all those years then that is her problem at that point. She certainly doesnt deserve everyones benefit of doubt for another 10 years and people presuming she was going to win many more slams than she actually probably ever would have as some kind of pity compenstation to her. Plus the fact there is ZERO evidence of her dominating long term the way her fanatics seems to like to believe. 2 years of dominance does not translate into a decade of it, and even during her so called dominance she couldnt even come close to winning on grass. Many of the players on tour in her post stabbing years werent even the same players as before, and ones that were the same like Sanchez Vicario, Martinez, Huber, Fernandez, she handled just as easily as before.

Her performances vs Graf post stabbing didnt surprise me at all either. Why should losing to Graf at the U.S Open surprise me when she has never beaten Graf on anything but rebound ace or clay. Her performances vs Graf head to head were the same as pre stabbing, always losing on a faster surface, could go either way on clay, winning on rebound ace. The difference is Graf was making every final unlike the Seles dominance years, and then when Graf went down with injuries the near gaurd I spoke of were there for Seles to face as well.

In addition her problems with a still growing and changing body when she lacked in natural athletic ability/desire to gym train like many others to begin with, her recurring shoulder and foot problems, and her personal tragedy off court like her fathers illness, are things that were going to be there regardless of the stabbing. Things that didnt exist in the few years before, but such was not going to last forever.

The fact is that she lost 2 years of her prime, lost her fitness (which was not great at first, I agree) and mentally, it's almost impossible to forget what happened and be the same again.
 

davey25

Banned
The fact is that she lost 2 years of her prime, lost her fitness (which was not great at first, I agree) and mentally, it's almost impossible to forget what happened and be the same again.

You can say whatever you want but if she were cut out for any kind of long term dominance there was no excuse to not do better than she did in her post stabbing career- only 1 freaking slam in 8 years! To suggest she was disadvantaged by the stabbing isnt unreasonable, but to suggest she gets a free pass the rest of her career if she chooses to come back after all that time off and play that much longer, and never has to bother getting in any kind of decent shape since people should just assume she was going to win those events and crown her the unofficial winner of them had it not been for the incident is just stupid. It seems Seles fans want people to just look at her dominant 2 years and agree and concede she was going to dominate the rest of her career when nobody, including players who were far more dominant, athletic, and complete than peak Monica has dominated that long. And that is simply crazy. I frankly think her career in the years after the stabbing seems about right and didnt surprise me at all. She hit her peak very early, she was a great ball striker but not a great athlete, and given that when she returned was nearly 5 years after she first became #1 I wouldnt have expected her to be even close to dominant at that point anyway. Players with her playing style, without outstanding athletic ability, and who rose so quickly and come up to the top at the age she does, dont ever dominate that long a period let alone longer than that anyway.

Anyway you just enjoy watching thalivest's clips now. Monica at her invincible peak for all to see.
 
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reversef

Hall of Fame
Yes and Ivo Karlovic has a better backhand than Andre Agassi, while Agassi has the better serve. Anyone I never said your name. Why so sensitive.
I'm not sensitive concerning the subject, I just say that I'm not a Seles fan since you imply that only Seles fans think that she would have had another career without the stabbing. No, I'm not a Seles fan, but I was following women tennis at that time, and it seems obvious for me that Seles would have won more than she did. Now, if you want to believe that I'm a Seles fan who doesn't want to say it, no problem for me. I think I don't have any problem to say which players I'm a fan of though.
 

boredone3456

G.O.A.T.
Doubles will get you into the Tennis Hall of Fame, but those accomplishments cannot make you the GOAT singles player.

Perfectly True.
Graf and Federer realized early on that an unhealthy attraction to doubles will not make you a GOAT.

Not True, Court and Navratlova are considered GOAT candidates and there are quite a few people, myself included, who believe Navratilova to be the GOAT. Then of course you have men like McEnroe. Playing doubles is perfectly fine if you are fit enough and can handle going deeply in both and be able to win in both. Players like Court and Navratilova could do that. Evert and Graf focused on singles and went that route, but that doesn't mean you aren't allowed to be the GOAT for playing both singles and doubles. Just because many modern players don't do it doesn't mean its not possible, tennis standards are not completely Graf/Federer centered.
An argument could be made that if Navratilova had focused less on doubles, her singles results might have been better earlier in her career
.

Highly doubt it, Evert owned Martina during the 1970's and even if Martina didn't play as much doubles Evert would have still been there waiting to lob drop and pass her to death in pretty much every tournament during the 1975-1979 time period that Martina was playing. Not to mention other players that were perfectly capable of taking advantage of Martina's poor early fitness. Her fitness early on was her biggest problem, not playing doubles wasn't going to magically make her fitness improve. Ironically (I'm sure it will be ironic to you anyway)when she was getting her best results in singles she was also dominating in doubles with Pam Shiver, how do you account for that?
 
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