Graf the greatest female player of all time on all surfaces

ecurb

Banned
Well, let's see. She came back to make it to the US Open finals. Then, she won the Australian Open, then never won a GS singles title again.

Mother Marjorie thinks that Australian Open win SHOULD have been enough to catapult her psychologically, that is, if she had the "stomach" for GOAT.

Word.

Parallel with Federer. After early 2007, Federer did not play as he did in 04-06, in his case it just happened naturally as he aged. But he was never the same. Monica was also never the same after the stabbing. Except her fed-like 04-06 were about to happen. What a tragedy.
 

thalivest

Banned
She wasn't at her peak. HOw can you know she wouldn't have gotten better after 93?

If she wanted anyone to think that when it comes to grass atleast maybe she should have done better than get past the 3rd round once of her 4 Wimbledons in her comeback. Oh I forgot the stabbing excuse again even even though it was many years ago, and even though she was making finals and semis of other slams, blah blah blah. :roll:

Lets ignore the future posts on Seles here people. As entertaining as this has all been this is a thread about GRAF and those who might be her few rivals in the GOAT category like Navratilova and Court, not about entertaining the delusional fan base of the current third tier level greats like Henin, Bueno, Seles, Venus, Goolagong.
 
Last edited:
Parallel with Federer. After early 2007, Federer did not play as he did in 04-06, in his case it just happened naturally as he aged. But he was never the same. Monica was also never the same after the stabbing. Except her fed-like 04-06 were about to happen. What a tragedy.

Oh, my God.

Do not EVER compare Monica Seles with Roger Federer.

EVER.
 

thalivest

Banned
Before she got stabbed she was putting up Roger numbers. 3/4 slams for 2 consecutive years WITH Graf at full force. Steffi couldn't hold Monica's jock during that stretch.

Yeah Graf losing 3 times to Jana Novotna in those 2 years who she is 26-4 lifetime against, losing 7 out 8 times to Sabatini, and losing a French Open semi to Sanchez Vicario 6-2, 6-0 is Graf at "full force", LOL! You also have a 2-3 head to to head, 0 straight set wins in 5 attempts, and lose a Wimbledon final 6-2, 6-1 to someone who cant hold your jock. Please do give up now, havent you already made enough of a fool of yourself and given others enough unintentional comedic pleasure as it is.
 

ecurb

Banned
Yeah Graf losing 3 times to Jana Novotna in those 2 years who she is 26-4 lifetime against, losing 7 out 8 times to Sabatini, and losing a French Open semi to Sanchez Vicario 6-2, 6-0 is Graf at "full force", LOL! You also have a 2-3 head to to head, 0 straight set wins in 5 attempts, and lose a Wimbledon final 6-2, 6-1 to someone who cant hold your jock. Please do give up now, havent you already made enough of a fool of yourself and given others enough unintentional comedic pleasure as it is.

Fact is Graf lost during those times for whatever reason. You can't just pick and choose which parts of her career and say this is Graf. Graf is the sum total of her career. The only exceptions are when something monumental like a willful stabbing stops you.

I repeat this is the scenario during the time Seles was only APPROACHING her peak --> " In January 1993, Seles defeated Graf in the final of the Australian Open, which to date was her third win in four Grand Slam finals with Graf." <--- this is huge. It would have only gotten worse for Graf after that.


During the height of her career (1990 French Open through the 1993 Australian Open), she won 8 of the 11 Grand Slam singles tournaments she contested



She got stabbed AFTER this folks....ARE YOU BLIND??? She was on her way to GOAT.
 
Last edited:

thalivest

Banned
Fact is Graf lost during those times for whatever reason. You can't just pick and choose which parts of her career and say this is Graf. Graf is the sum total of her career.

You are right that Graf's career is the total sum of it. And that sum is 22 singles slams, the most of anyone other than Court who won 11 of hers at the then sparsely attended Australian Open. That is history's only Golden Slam (long before the Seles stabbing). That is the only women to win a Golden Slam. That is achieving the French-Wimbledon-U.S Open triple 4 times, and winning every slam played in a year 3 different times (both times a DNF in Australia denying Graf yet another Calender Slam). That is 186 consecutive weeks at #1, a record (long before the Seles stabbing as well). That is Grand Slam titles 12 years apart, showing amazing longevity in the most physically demanding time of tennis ever perhaps.

And Seles's career is all about the sum total as well. Sadly the tired and overused stabbing excuse when she returned and played for another 8 years can only carry you so far. And that sum is a very decisive losing head to head vs Graf, Serena, Venus, Davenport, and Hingis, basically nearly every player she ran into with 3 or more slams outside of Sanchez Vicario and Capriati. That sum is 0 Wimbledon titles. That sum is the fewer slam titles than Billie Jean King, Serena Williams, and Suzanne Lenglen, and half or less of the leaders Court, Graf, Navratilova, Evert, Wills Moody. That is 1 slam title the final 7 and a half years of her career.

Yes ones career is always about the sum total of it all.
 

ecurb

Banned
You are right that Graf's career is the total sum of it. And that sum is 22 singles slams, the most of anyone other than Court who won 11 of hers at the then sparsely attended Australian Open. That is history's only Golden Slam (long before the Seles stabbing). That is the only women to win a Golden Slam. That is achieving the French-Wimbledon-U.S Open triple 4 times, and winning every slam played in a year 3 different times (both times a DNF in Australia denying Graf yet another Calender Slam). That is 186 consecutive weeks at #1, a record (long before the Seles stabbing as well). That is Grand Slam titles 12 years apart, showing amazing longevity in the most physically demanding time of tennis ever perhaps.

And Seles's career is all about the sum total as well. Sadly the tired and overused stabbing excuse when she returned and played for another 8 years can only carry you so far. And that sum is a very decisive losing head to head vs Graf, Serena, Venus, Davenport, and Hingis, basically nearly every player she ran into with 3 or more slams outside of Sanchez Vicario and Capriati. That sum is 0 Wimbledon titles. That sum is the fewer slam titles than Billie Jean King, Serena Williams, and Suzanne Lenglen, and half or less of the leaders Court, Graf, Navratilova, Evert, Wills Moody. That is 1 slam title the final 7 and a half years of her career.

Yes ones career is always about the sum total of it all.

You forgot to quote the exception. Graf's sum total and Monicas are related because one affected the other. Monica was cut short and graf's was inflated. Simple to see for non blind people.
 

thalivest

Banned
You forgot to quote the exception. Graf's sum total and Monicas are related because one affected the other. Monica was cut short and graf's was inflated. Simple to see for non blind people.

Yes we just need to all have those special Seles goggles for the Seles shrine club which make up only about 0.001 of the general population. That way we can all see how Seles would have magically transformed to a dominant grass court player who would win multiple Wimbledons. How Seles was actually dominating Graf specifically even in the early 90s while dominating the womens game during Graf's slump. And how the stabbing is somehow sufficient excuse for years of poor fitness, weight, and having trouble with a line of women who didnt even exist in the pre stabbing field but somehow become added victims to the Seles "uncrowned champion but for the stabbing" theory for all slams for the next decade. Oh how the rest of the 99.999% of the human population all wish we could be as non blind as you great Selestials.
 

thalivest

Banned
ARE YOU BLIND??? She was on her way to GOAT.

Oh my, you mean she ran out of Krispy Kremes, McDonalds, KFC, Burger King, and was going to eat a GOAT as well!? Wow Seles was hungry that day, even for her standards. I wonder if she invited Serena to join her.
 

Polaris

Hall of Fame
as non blind as you great Selestials.

I love the word "Selestials" for Seles worshippers! Good one. I like both Graf and Seles, and went to watch Seles play in one of her last tournaments.

Now, if you only came clean and posted under one username, I'd like to participate in your threads instead of nagging because there _are_ things worth responding to. It is just dishonest to pretend that you are two people.
 
Last edited:

rolandg

Semi-Pro
Thalivest, do you have a life?

If so, any chance you could live it rather than posting the same things over and over again about Graf/ Seles. Does it not get slightly boring?
 

rolandg

Semi-Pro
At age 16, American Maureen Connolly won her first grand slam title over Shirley Fry. In 1953, she won the first calendar year grand slam in women's tennis history at age 18.

1.Australian Championships - 1 time: Winner 1953
2.French Championships - 2 times: Winner 1953, 1954
3.Wimbledon - 3 times: Winner 1952, 1953, 1954
4.U.S. Championships - 5 times (1949–1953): Winner 1951, 1952, 1953

Two weeks after winning her third Wimbledon at age 19, her leg was crushed in a horseback riding accident when a truck hit them. She was never able to fully recover.

The Mother Marjorie Moral of this story is that tennis history has taught us that players much younger and much more accomplished than Monica Seles have experienced career-ending tragedy. Seles had a second chance, Maureen didn't. Get over it.

225px-Maureen_Connolly_1.jpg

I've heard this story quite a bit, but unfortunately it isn't true. Connolly could have come back after the injury, but she didn't want to. Sure, it would have been difficult and it may have had an effect on her game (who knows for sure?) but she had wanted to get out of tennis for a while and the accident was the perfect way to get out. The story about the accident being career ending has kind of been perpetuated by historians, I guess because it makes it more tragic. There is a poster on here (can't remember his name) who has posted some articles about it.
 

fedhingis515

Semi-Pro
Thalivest, do you have a life?

If so, any chance you could live it rather than posting the same things over and over again about Graf/ Seles. Does it not get slightly boring?

His thread was about Graf and her being the greatest on all surfaces, but as always blind Seles fans (who are infinitely worse than *******s and *******s combined) come up with their little stabbing anecdote and ruin any chance of having a logical discussion.

Back on topic, yes, Graf is the greatest all surface female player of all time. The real discussion (for me) is deciding which was her best surface and her "least best" surface.
 
I've heard this story quite a bit, but unfortunately it isn't true. Connolly could have come back after the injury, but she didn't want to. Sure, it would have been difficult and it may have had an effect on her game (who knows for sure?) but she had wanted to get out of tennis for a while and the accident was the perfect way to get out. The story about the accident being career ending has kind of been perpetuated by historians, I guess because it makes it more tragic. There is a poster on here (can't remember his name) who has posted some articles about it.
Where do you idiots come from?

She actually tried to play exhibitions again and turn professional, but the leg wouldn't hold. I guess Maureen's lawsuit against the driver of the truck was all made-up as well.

There was even a 2 hour movie made about "'Lil 'Mo" in 1978

Maureen died of cancer in her late 30's and her family (daughters) went at great lengths to preserve her legacy. To suggest that a 19 year old Maureen went to such great lengths to dupe the tennis world is beyond ridiculousness.
 
Last edited:

rolandg

Semi-Pro
Where do you idiots come from?

She actually tried to play exhibitions again and turn professional, but the leg wouldn't hold. I guess Maureen's lawsuit against the driver of the truck was all made-up as well.

There was even a movie made about "'Lil 'Mo"

Maureen died of cancer in her late 30's and her family (daughters) went at great lengths to preserve her legacy. To suggest that a 19 year old Maureen went to such great lengths to dupe the tennis world is beyond ridiculousness.

Nah, that's not true, sorry.
 
Nah, that's not true, sorry.
Care to provide ANY reference to refute anything I've said? Especially the articles you claim someone else once posted here.

Hurry up!

Oh, you must be one of those well-known Selestians. No one or nothing can possibly be as tragic as Seles. I mean, the horror of someone stuffing five twinkies at once down their own throats is a tragedy during the prime of their tennis career.
 
Last edited:
She got stabbed AFTER this folks....ARE YOU BLIND??? She was on her way to GOAT.
Take off the blinders and recognize the difference between Monica in her 20's vs Monica in her '30's. Once you do that, you'll understand why Seles was never destined GOAT.

Monica_Seles_weight.jpg
444195065_330153e004.jpg
 
Last edited:

jrepac

Hall of Fame
Graf

How quickly this wound up being the endless Graf vs. Seles "what if Monica were not stabbed" forum????

Sure, Monica likely would have won a few more slams...odds were in her favor. But, when she did come back, she did herself no favors being perpetually out of shape. Getting to the USO and AO finals, and winning one of them, proved she still had "game", but she could not sustain it. And, yes, she had lots of personal issues. And, everyone does, as well as injuries. Gee, what if Tracy Austin did not get hurt? What if she did not get in a car accident? etc, etc.

But, as an all surface player, Graf is a very strong contender, alongside Evert, I believe. But, as many would say, Evert stands out most for her clay prowess and Martina for her strength on grass. I think Graf played her best on grass and her worst on hard courts, actually. [tho' her 'worst' is mighty darn good]

And to suggest that Evert did not have competition on clay is downright ridiculous; there were many clay specialists back in the day; it took 125 (?) matches and Tracy Austin to stop her tremendous winning streak on that surface. That tells you how good she really was on that surface; at their peaks, I would not pick Graf over Chris on clay...no way, no how. Even at 30yrs++, she incredibly tough on that surface. She worked the court and the angles like no one else could; only Hingis (yes, Hingis) comes close to her level of using the whole court to one's advantage.
 

anointedone

Banned
And to suggest that Evert did not have competition on clay is downright ridiculous; there were many clay specialists back in the day

Sorry but Evert's competition on clay from 1973-1979 was a complete joke. It was many times worse than the early to mid 90s field on clay which was by far the deepest womens clay court field ever, and in fact even worse than todays very weak clay court field. Of course that is not Chris's fault, she took full advantage. Clay court specialists? Like whom exactly. A mid 30s King on her worst surface, Goolagong, Virginia Wade, Wendy Turnbull, are these your idea of "clay court" specialists, LOL! Or do you mean the complete journeywomen on tour who just happened to like clay and maybe won a WTT boycotted French Open (equivalent to winning Vienna today perhaps).

Seles, Graf, Lenglen, Connolly, possibly even prime Navratilova (if she avoided a Horvath like fluke) would have had no problem winning 100 straight matches on clay vs that same nothing clay court field themselves. As for prime Evert being unbeatable on clay how do you explain her losing twice in a row to Jaeger, losing tier 1 finals on clay to Zina Garrison and Manuela Maleeva, and getting thumped by a prime Martina multiple times on clay. Yes when she played the nothing clay court field of the mid to late 70s she was indeed unbeatable but then again what all time great clay courter wouldnt have been like I said. You mention it took Austin, yes indeed it took a 15 or barely 16 year old hard court specialist who never did anything much at the French to stop her long win streak on clay, what does that say about the rest of the players on the surface the 6 years preceding that.

Say arent you the same poster who once called Jennifer Capriati an "underachiever" and considered her one of the players who was a tough matchup for Graf and helped push her out of the game.
 

LDVTennis

Professional
Monica was in her prime in the early 90s. No health problems, perfect body shape, no personal problems, the best tennis she would ever play. What other definition to a prime do you have. Seles fanatics like yourself should thank Gunther Parche for stabbing Monica though as it allows you to continue to have your crazy delusions that Monica was going to keep win every slam the rest of the decade and even become a dominant player on grass without having your fantasy ever destroyed for you. :lol:

Paradoxically, it does seem like Gunther did Seles' fans a big favor. Perhaps, that is why they constantly bring up his name. They must really like him.
 

LDVTennis

Professional
Thalivest, do you have a life?

If so, any chance you could live it rather than posting the same things over and over again about Graf/ Seles. Does it not get slightly boring?

How do you know thalivest posts the same things over and over?

Have you been stalking him? Seems like you are the one who needs to get a life.
 

Joe Pike

Banned
Before she got stabbed she was putting up Roger numbers. 3/4 slams for 2 consecutive years WITH Graf at full force. Steffi couldn't hold Monica's jock during that stretch.


Graf "at full force" in 1991?

When she lost 5 matches in a row to Sabatini?
Sure ...
 

boredone3456

G.O.A.T.
Sorry but Evert's competition on clay from 1973-1979 was a complete joke. It was many times worse than the early to mid 90s field on clay which was by far the deepest womens clay court field ever, and in fact even worse than todays very weak clay court field. Of course that is not Chris's fault, she took full advantage

Evert was dominating everywhere in during this time, not just on clay. On clay it was just much more pronounced because Serve and Volley is at its worst on clay and as pretty much everybody else at the top was primarily a S & V player I think that is pretty telling. Combine this with the fact Evert has the arguably the best passing shots and maybe best defensive game of all time its not so surprising. On Faster surfaces S & V players stould a better chance but overall most of the top players back then were owned by Evert pretty much everywhere, maybe the field was terrible on clay, but if you want to go that way the field overall may couldn't have been that good if Goolagong was the only one who could give Evert a consistent battle, or maybe Evert was truly that much better?

Clay court specialists? Like whom exactly. A mid 30s King on her worst surface, Goolagong, Virginia Wade, Wendy Turnbull, are these your idea of "clay court" specialists, LOL! Or do you mean the complete journeywomen on tour who just happened to like clay and maybe won a WTT boycotted French Open (equivalent to winning Vienna today perhaps).

This I agree with, but Chris Dominated these people(except Goolagong playing her best) everywhere on every single surface, and Clay was Chris's best and arguably their worse surface, so why would the dominance not be more pronounced in such a circumstance?

Seles, Graf, Lenglen, Connolly, possibly even prime Navratilova (if she avoided a Horvath like fluke) would have had no problem winning 100 straight matches on clay vs that same nothing clay court field themselves.

This is true, but that doesn't really diminish Evert though does it?

As for prime Evert being unbeatable on clay how do you explain her losing twice in a row to Jaeger, losing tier 1 finals on clay to Zina Garrison and Manuela Maleeva, and getting thumped by a prime Martina multiple times on clay.

She lost 1 final to Garrison in 1985, when many people in any position to make any judgements believed Chris's time at the top of the game was beginning to end. But that beings said she dominated Garrison overall H2H, and apart from the 1989 US Open QF (by which time Chris truly was pretty much done), never lost to her and in 9 wins dropped 1 set. That win could be deemed a fluke much like you classify the Horvath win over Navratilova to be.

As for Jaeger, Evert never lost twice in a row to her as far as I know. Jaeger was a pretty good player as a teen, made 2 slam finals in a short spance of time, and like Austin people expected her to be a part of the new guard to take over the game. Seeing as Chris owns a 6-2 clay advantage and 17-3 overall its not as bad as you make it out to be.

As for Maleeva, she beat Evert in the 1984 Italian Open Final in straights, but that year they faced 5 times on clay and Chris won the other 4, one by a 6-1 6-1 scoreline. Maleeva played Evert close in the other 3, but Chris pulled them all out in the end, Maleeva matched up better against Chris on Clay than on other surfaces, but that year Chris owned the clay H2H 4-1 and holds the overall edge 5-2.

As for Martina, Prime Martina was killing the entire field everywhere, her worst surface was clay, but the time when many of those thumpings were occuring was when Evert was going through Racket transition, yes even after Evert Adjusted Martina was still handing her a few beatings, but Evert won the 1985 & 1986 French Opens over her so its not like Evert was completely Helpless against Prime Martina on clay, as many of the other players on the tour were.

Yes when she played the nothing clay court field of the mid to late 70s she was indeed unbeatable but then again what all time great clay courter wouldnt have been like I said. You mention it took Austin, yes indeed it took a 15 or barely 16 year old hard court specialist who never did anything much at the French to stop her long win streak on clay, what does that say about the rest of the players on the surface the 6 years preceding that.

Again true, but its not like Evert would have done comparably terrible against the clay court fields of any other decade. Sure in the 90's she would not have as high a win percentage on the surface but I doubt she would not have been a top contender for every single clay court prize that Graf and Seles were winning during this time. As for Austin, Austin like Jaeger was seen as a future superstar, was dead even with Evert H2H (she was a tough matchup for Evert, not a pure serve and volleyer who Evert could pass and Evert had to hone her other shots in to win), and After the loss to Austin Evert went on another tear winning something like 75 straight matches on Clay. It wasn't like Austin Straight Setted her either, its was lost in a 3rd set Tiebreak. Austin would go on to win the US Open later that yr over Evert, and would become World number 1 soon after, she was a teen phenom, pure and simple.

I don't find it unreasonable that the greatest Clay Courter of the times would have an off day and lose 1 match out of 200, it happens. Or do you think Graf, Seles, Lenglen or anybody else would have been able to win 200 Straight matches over roughly 7 yrs on clay during this time, they were good, but I wouldn't be betting on that.
 

jrepac

Hall of Fame
Evert

Sorry but Evert's competition on clay from 1973-1979 was a complete joke. It was many times worse than the early to mid 90s field on clay which was by far the deepest womens clay court field ever, and in fact even worse than todays very weak clay court field. Of course that is not Chris's fault, she took full advantage. Clay court specialists? Like whom exactly. A mid 30s King on her worst surface, Goolagong, Virginia Wade, Wendy Turnbull, are these your idea of "clay court" specialists, LOL! Or do you mean the complete journeywomen on tour who just happened to like clay and maybe won a WTT boycotted French Open (equivalent to winning Vienna today perhaps).

Seles, Graf, Lenglen, Connolly, possibly even prime Navratilova (if she avoided a Horvath like fluke) would have had no problem winning 100 straight matches on clay vs that same nothing clay court field themselves. As for prime Evert being unbeatable on clay how do you explain her losing twice in a row to Jaeger, losing tier 1 finals on clay to Zina Garrison and Manuela Maleeva, and getting thumped by a prime Martina multiple times on clay. Yes when she played the nothing clay court field of the mid to late 70s she was indeed unbeatable but then again what all time great clay courter wouldnt have been like I said. You mention it took Austin, yes indeed it took a 15 or barely 16 year old hard court specialist who never did anything much at the French to stop her long win streak on clay, what does that say about the rest of the players on the surface the 6 years preceding that.

Say arent you the same poster who once called Jennifer Capriati an "underachiever" and considered her one of the players who was a tough matchup for Graf and helped push her out of the game.

Perhaps "many" is a bit too grand an adjective, but there were some very good clay court specialists....Rucizi, Jausovec...Morozova and Hanika were also quite good. You also denigrate Maleeva, Jaeger and Austin, who were all very good clay court players. So, not sure what your point really is here, other than to question Evert's stellar record on clay. Tell me, do you really think that Sanchez Vicario, Gabby, Pierce, Martinez, etc. are/were superior to Evert? some of those who she had wins over when she was "old" and they were "young". Even Seles, lost to Chris in her last USO appearance, on hard courts...BADLY....And, certainly, as great as Martina was, she needed to be on top of her game to beat Chris on clay...so, I think it is fair to say that Chris, across generations, was a top-notch clay court player.

Re: Capriati, yes, I consider her an underachiever, defined as someone who did not fully realize their talent. But, no, she did not drive Steffi out of the game...that would be a reach...
 

anointedone

Banned
Tell me, do you really think that Sanchez Vicario, Gabby, Pierce, Martinez, etc. are/were superior to Evert?

Of course not. The key is not if they were superior to Evert on clay, but if they were superior to Evert's "competition" on clay. All of those were far superior to any of Evert's competition on clay during her 125 match winning streak in the 70s- mid 30s King, pre-prime Navratilova, Rucizi, Jausovec, Morozova, Hanika. Only Goolagong was a decent opponent for Evert on clay during this stretch. Even if you moved to the 80s where Chris was still winning alot of clay but far less dominant those you mentioned are all superior to anyone Chris faced except Martina of course, and maybe on Hana (though I think Sanchez is clearly much superior overall to Hana on clay, and prime Gaby and prime Martinez atleast as good). Basically if Evert were to trade places with Graf or Seles she would be facing Graf or Seles herself, Sanchez Vicario, Sabatini, Martinez, Pierce, for awhile Hingis, and others. Do you really think she would ever rather face that group than the fields of women she actually did face on clay?

You also denigrate Maleeva, Jaeger and Austin, who were all very good clay court players. So, not sure what your point really is here, other than to question Evert's stellar record on clay.

That group is certainly an improvement on Ruzici, Jausoevec, mid 30s King, Hanika, Turnbull as your main competition on clay, but even this group is significantly inferior to Sanchez Vicario, Sabatini, Martinez, Pierce, as your main contemporary competition on clay, let alone Graf or Seles. So if that group could post the odd win of her on clay, it would be silly to suggest the group I mentioned wouldnt give Evert some tough competition on clay, never mind any idea at all of actually having an easy time with Graf or Seles on it.

some of those who she had wins over when she was "old" and they were "young".

Evert considers her best tennis ever to have come in late 84 and 1985 so I would assume she was still in her prime up until end of 1985 atleast. Navratilova also said she had never seen Evert play better than then. All those players I mentioned beat Evert on clay from 1982-1985.

Even Seles, lost to Chris in her last USO appearance, on hard courts...BADLY....

I am not sure what that has to do with the discussion really. 2 players at completely opposite end of their careers. One clearly past her prime, one clearly before hers. I never use that sort of thing as part of a discussion, it is like those want to keep bringing up the Sampras-Federer Wimbledon match. Seles was only 15 in 1989 though and wasnt that good yet except to some degree on clay. When she played Graf at Wimbledon she got only 1 game as well. She did beat the aged Evert earlier that year when they played on clay, despite that she was a little pipsqueek of a thing who hit the ball not even half as hard and well as she would 2 years later.

And, certainly, as great as Martina was, she needed to be on top of her game to beat Chris on clay...so, I think it is fair to say that Chris, across generations, was a top-notch clay court player.

Martina called the 85 French final one of the worst matches she ever played during her prime years, and Evert still had to play lights out to barely beat her. Martina was still so close to winning in the end. I think it was Chris who needed to play her best to have a chance vs Martina on clay during that period, moreso than vice versa. Martina's wins were often spankings, Chris's were very hard fought and hard earned victories. Of course that isnt to suggest in anyway Martina should rank as greater than Chris on clay. Martina had 5 years of top clay court tennis, Chris had 15 or more. However during the 82-85 period both were at their best Martina might well have been as good or even better than Chris on clay.

Re: Capriati, yes, I consider her an underachiever, defined as someone who did not fully realize their talent. But, no, she did not drive Steffi out of the game...that would be a reach...

Capriati is an underachiever and overachiever both if that makes sense. She should have had a better career in the 90s, and she never should have won the 3 slams she did in the early 2000s. She is Graf's pigeon though.
 
Last edited:
How quickly this wound up being the endless Graf vs. Seles "what if Monica were not stabbed" forum????

Sure, Monica likely would have won a few more slams...odds were in her favor. But, when she did come back, she did herself no favors being perpetually out of shape. Getting to the USO and AO finals, and winning one of them, proved she still had "game", but she could not sustain it. And, yes, she had lots of personal issues. And, everyone does, as well as injuries. Gee, what if Tracy Austin did not get hurt? What if she did not get in a car accident? etc, etc.

But, as an all surface player, Graf is a very strong contender, alongside Evert, I believe. But, as many would say, Evert stands out most for her clay prowess and Martina for her strength on grass. I think Graf played her best on grass and her worst on hard courts, actually. [tho' her 'worst' is mighty darn good]

And to suggest that Evert did not have competition on clay is downright ridiculous; there were many clay specialists back in the day; it took 125 (?) matches and Tracy Austin to stop her tremendous winning streak on that surface. That tells you how good she really was on that surface; at their peaks, I would not pick Graf over Chris on clay...no way, no how. Even at 30yrs++, she incredibly tough on that surface. She worked the court and the angles like no one else could; only Hingis (yes, Hingis) comes close to her level of using the whole court to one's advantage.
I was present to watch Steffi Graf win her first WTA title at Hilton Head, SC, in 1986, defeating Chris Evert on clay in straight sets (the same year Chris Evert won her last French Open). Even though Graf's game was far from polished, you could tell she was on the cusp of being a great player. Her athletic ability at such a young age is what stood out the most, followed by her forehand. Within the next 12 months, the world watched her game explode. It appeared that once Graf got her first taste of victory, it never stopped.

Chris' clay court record is just crazy, but given her style of play and the times, it was a given that it would be her best surface. Chris seemed less at ease on hardcourt (only 3 of her US Open wins were on hardcourt). I think Chris was an underrated grass court player, making it to multiple-multiple grass court grand slam finals.

Navratilova's achilles heel was always clay for obvious reasons.

Chris and Martina had weaknesses with an individual surface that Graf never had. Chris, hardcourt and grass..Martina clay. Graf won multiple times on whatever surface they laid out for her.

One might make a case that since the Australian Open didn't become a hardcourt major until late in Evert/Navratilova's career that they didn't have the opportunity to put up hardcourt numbers like Graf...however, given Evert's inability to win greater than five grass court major finals and Martina only two on clay, it wouldn't make any difference historically.

Graf is the best all-around in the majors on all surfaces.
 

anointedone

Banned
It is harder to definitely compare Evert, Navratilova, and Graf on hard courts as Evert and Navratilova never got the opportunity to play as many hard court slams. I tend to think Graf was the most dominant hard court player of the three but hard to say for sure.

I agree Evert was a very underrated grass court player. The grass fields back then were extremely strong. Basically for the same reason the clay court fields in the 70s werent as deep. Everyone then other than Evert and a few others played serve and volley, the games of nearly all the women then were geared to grass. Yet Evert with her baseline and expert clay court built game still managed 10 Wimbledon finals and would have won alot more than 3 Wimbledons if a certain Navratilova didnt keep getting in her way. She was possibly the most consistent grass court player ever over such a long period of time, even more than Navratilova and Graf. Not ever as dominant on grass as a Navratilova or Graf, but still an outstanding and underrated grass courter for sure.
 
Capriati is an underachiever and overachiever both if that makes sense. She should have had a better career in the 90s, and she never should have won the 3 slams she did in the early 2000s. She is Graf's pigeon though.
Throughout Graf's career, there were several very promising players who went on to win grand slam titles, yet could never breakthrough the glass ceiling of being considered a GOAT:

Jennifer Capriati
Monica Seles
Martina Hingis
Mary Pierce
Sanchez-Vicario

It seemed they all, Graf included, had very odd circumstances to overcome during their youth (Sanchez-Vicario excluded). Jennifer Capriati (youthful indiscretion and burnout), Monica Seles (knifing and weight problems), Martina Hingis (injury and burnout), Mary Pierce (father, physical problems), Steffi Graf (father problems, tax evasion issue). However, it was Graf who was the only one able to put her personal problems behind aside and go forward to achieve GOAT status. I think an important character trait of a GOAT is the ability to place personal problems in its proper perspective while continuing to place priority on tennis.

Not every human being has the ability to deal with life's adversity similarly. Graf was much more mentally and physically stronger than her contemporaries in this instance and it showed in her results. It's what makes Graf's career historically remarkable.
 
Last edited:

anointedone

Banned
Throughout Graf's career, there were several very promising players who went on to win grand slam titles, yet could never breakthrough the glass ceiling of being considered a GOAT:

Jennifer Capriati
Monica Seles
Martina Hingis
Mary Pierce

It seemed they all, Graf included, had very odd circumstances to overcome during their youth. Jennifer Capriati (youthful indiscretion and burnout), Monica Seles (knifing and weight problems), Martina Hingis (injury and burnout), Mary Pierce (father, physical problems), Steffi Graf (father problems, tax evasion issue). However, it was Graf who was the only one able to put her personal problems behind aside and go forward to achieve GOAT status. I think an important character trait of a GOAT is the ability to place personal problems in its proper perspective while continuing to place priority on tennis. Graf was much more mentally and physically stronger than her contemporaries in this instance.

Yeah you are right. You could add Sabatini to that who had huge expectations on her when she was coming up with Graf. There were some players with great promise as well as Graf but only Graf of that collection of players had the neccessary combination of athletic, mental, and technical skills to keep pushing through the inevitable pitfalls and ups and downs all players go through to achieve anything approaching GOAT status.
 

BTURNER

Legend
Liveliest, I have given your question comparing Evert vs Graf on clay, a good deal more thought than you may imagine and created a thread on it ages ago here. It is a close call. Most of Graf's years did involve deeper clay competition than Evert's as a generalization. The question really becomes just how many slams and tournaments and sets of Evert's are you going to throw out? And what are you left with? Arbitrarily I threw out three of Evert's weakest clay slams with victories over Tomanova, and Jausovic and Turnbull , then I threw out Graf's 1988 double bagel over Zvereva. While these events may have involved serious competition in the semis or earlier, one tough match-up don't really cut it. I do not throw out Graf's victories because Seles did not show, because no single player makes or kills a title. In the end here's what I saw. Graf has the better record ( slightly) for red clay despite losses to Seles, Sanchez and Sabatini each year. That added depth from the quarters forward on the red clay circuit made it far more likely. I give the edge to Evert on the best record on (red and green combined) . While the US Open was played on green clay, everyone showed from both sides of the Atlantic and everyone cared, just as they did off and on at the French over the years Evert played. Graf did not have ample occasion, thanks to fate, in green clay tourneys and Evert had some of her victories on the red compromised by fate as well. Its rough, just pure guesswork how to figure this in an equation. Its of course true that Evert has the best career win/loss record on clay measuring both forms in the stats

It is a closer call than folks realize but From 1973 through 1986, excepting 1984, there was no clearly better clay courter in a single season, than Evert. there were losses and threats like Court, Goolagong Austin Mandlikova and Jaeger, and Graf in 1986 to her crown. Some had their hands on it and MAY have wrestled it away briefly. BUT Its a lot of years to call a weak era.
 
Last edited:

Polaris

Hall of Fame
How do you know thalivest posts the same things over and over?

Have you been stalking him? Seems like you are the one who needs to get a life.

This is obvious without stalking. Only a little time on the forum is enough to reveal that thalivest and davey25 and anointedone are the same person. The different identities have slightly different personalities but are, by and large, in agreement about the greatness of Steffi Graf.

At any given time of the day, one of these identities is active. The timestamps indicate that this person spends nearly his entire time on this forum, generating threads by the dozen, carrying out conversations with himself, voting in polls multiple times and generally deceiving everyone on the forum.
 
Last edited:

BTURNER

Legend
this thread has some good conversation and debate in it. Let's not let it get silly or personal. I don't worry about who is a sokpuppet or who is Graf or Seles fanatic. I just respond to the words of the posts I am interested in.
 

Polaris

Hall of Fame
this thread has some good conversation and debate in it. Let's not let it get silly or personal. I don't worry about who is a sokpuppet or who is Graf or Seles fanatic. I just respond to the words of the posts I am interested in.

That is true BTURNER, but consider this:

Can you tolerate one guy with two simultaneous identities? Sure.
How about one guy with 3 simultaneous identities? Maybe.
How about one guy with 5 identities? That's a stretch.
How about 10 identities? That is hard to tolerate. I mean, I don't wish to participate in a forum like that. Maybe, I should just go elsewhere.

Ordinarily, I just ignore that person's profile, but he comes up with yet another one, and another and another until the forum is not fun at all. I've tried to put up with this for 5 years. Now, I just can't help pointing out whenever davey25 opens a new sockpuppet account.
 
Last edited:

BTURNER

Legend
An honest reply, Polaris. I engaged Liveliest in Post 140. I am hoping he will reply to it, rather than see it lost behind the personal allegations contained thereafter. I don't care he has other 'personalities' as long as they are respectful and remotely intelligent . Thalivest and davey25 and anointedone have all been civil to me so I won't go wrong if any of them post. For peace of mind, just think of it as split personality disorder and converse with your favorite, on the topic you like or ignore them all. But do stay around . I like your stuff too!
 

Gizo

Legend
Of course thalivest has already started a very similar thread to this under one of his/her other aliases:
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=300035&highlight=Graf

As I said on another thread, this one person clearly knows their tennis. I enjoy reading a lot of his/her excellent and very detailed posts. Also if it wasn't for this one person, the number of posts related to women's tennis on here would significantly decrease.

If he/she could just post all of this under a single account that would be great, but creating a neverending series of accounts to post the same thing over and over again makes him/her look like a mentally deranged lunatic.
 
Last edited:

THUNDERVOLLEY

G.O.A.T.
Can you tolerate one guy with two simultaneous identities?

Can you prove this member has more than one TT identity?

Can you prove it is impossible for more than one human being to have a similar view, mode of debate or writing style?

If not, this carries the stench of paranoia--the idea that one view or member cannot sound/post/champion/dislike a subject like another.

Proof is required.
 

Joe Pike

Banned
This is obvious without stalking. Only a little time on the forum is enough to reveal that thalivest and davey25 and anointedone are the same person. The different identities have slightly different personalities but are, by and large, in agreement about the greatness of Steffi Graf.
...


BS.
Steffi Graf was and is the most popular female tennis player of all time.
By far.
So it's not suprising that a majority of posters here in TW is in agreement about her greatness.
 

Polaris

Hall of Fame
Can you prove this member has more than one TT identity?
Yes. He has admitted this himself. I elaborate below.

Can you prove it is impossible for more than one human being to have a similar view, mode of debate or writing style?
No.

If not, this carries the stench of paranoia--the idea that one view or member cannot sound/post/champion/dislike a subject like another.
I understand that this sounds like "A Beautiful Mind"-style paranoia. I have no defense against that argument.

Proof is required.
If you search the forums with keywords "davey25", "Rabbit", "federerhoogenbandfan" you will find an exchange in which Rabbit conclusively outed davey25 as a poster with multiple identities. Further, in that thread, davey25 admitted to having multiple identities. If you don't find a link, let me know and I'll find it for you next time I log in. That thread contains proof that davey25 is not above using multiple identities simultaneously.

[EDITED LATER: Here is your proof: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=365922&postcount=229
Note how davey25 admits to having changed his login name to federerhoogenbandfan. At that point, if he had persisted with the new name, it would no longer have mattered. But, he has returned as davey25 and simultaneously as other identities, all in the same thread! That alone should send red flags all over the place.]


Many other posters have exposed this: Moose Malloy found a few more identities perpetrated by this poster. That isn't as strong a proof as the one above, but it is an indication from a well-informed and attentive poster like Moose.

Joe Pike said:
BS.
Steffi Graf was and is the most popular female tennis player of all time.
By far.
So it's not suprising that a majority of posters here in TW is in agreement about her greatness.
See above, and please be respectful.

southpaw said:
Lol what's wrong with multiple identities? He gets caught, he gets banned, he doesn't, so what?
Indeed, and he has been banned. About 6 of his identities have been banned. Three or four are still at large. Of course, if you don't mind, then more power to you. I wish I was as tolerant as you. I have no problem with people who change their username and retain it, but I have a problem with people who post under two different identities simultaneously.
 
Last edited:
Top