Mick
Legend
you have to get to the ball early to hit it with a 2hfh. if you get there late then you can't hit it with a 2hfh. either you have to hit it with a 1hfh or you have to let the ball fly pass you
Graf's prime Vs. Williams prime, who would have emerged victorious?
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you have to get to the ball early to hit it with a 2hfh. if you get there late then you can't hit it with a 2hfh. either you have to hit it with a 1hfh or you have to let the ball fly pass you
anointedone
Banned
you have to get to the ball early to hit it with a 2hfh. if you get there late then you can't hit it with a 2hfh. either you have to hit it with a 1hfh or you have to let the ball fly pass you
That is a large reason Seles struggled alot more in her comeback, especialy vs the big hitters which there were more of in her post stabbing years (also more than are left now). She was alot less fit, alot slower covering court, and you have to cover more court to get behind the ball with 2 hands, especialy on the forehand side, as you dont have the reach otherwise. That is why you saw post stabbing Seles go to the 1 handed forehand alot which made her alot less effective.
The-Champ
Legend
Neither was at their best, but this was a quite a good and entertaining match, But . I didn't see Serena having trouble with Graf's sliced bh.
thalivest....you are wrong, I've seen Monica at her best, she was good, too bad she was stabbed, hers and Steffi's slam count could have been pretty even. But I honestly don't see her dominating a prime Justine. Anyway your SPECULATIONS are as good as mine.
Seles vs the williams
http://www.sonyericssonwtatour.com/....asp?PlayerID=230234&Player1ID=190141&x=1&y=8
http://www.sonyericssonwtatour.com/....asp?PlayerID=230220&Player1ID=190141&x=2&y=6
Why would you have to get to the ball earlier? The contact point on a 2hfh can be much farther back then on a 1hfh. I guess it depends on weather you know how to hit the 2hfh open or not. Is that what you are referring to, the sideways set up of a 2hbh or 2hfh needing more time?
So young, fit, strong and near prime Williams sisters in the year 1999 managed to go a combined 3-3 with an old, injured, nearly retired Graf who by that point was losing to Halard, Serna (twice!), Kournikova, Schnyder, Appelmans, Sugiyama, Frazier, and a flock of other third string (or less) players she would always beat left handed in her prime. Congrats, LOL! Keep in mind Graf in her prime, a far cry from the Williams of course, was incredibly consistent. That whole 1987-1996 period that has been pointed out before she almost never lost to players like that, all those years combined she had at most 3 losses over the whole 10 years to any players that could be categorized with the ones I mentioned (and she played the likes of Appelmans, Halard, and Frazier for many years without ever being close to losing to them until 1998 and 1999 when she was such a shadow of her old self).
The Williams in 1999 were in fact playing alot better than they are today BTW. So I guess we can take from that since the Williams of 1999 were only playing at best pretty even with an injured, way past her prime, and nearly retired Graf, that the Williams of today would then be losing to the way past her prime, nearly retired Graf.
The Williams in 1999 were in fact playing alot better than they are today BTW. So I guess we can take from that since the Williams of 1999 were only playing at best pretty even with an injured, way past her prime, and nearly retired Graf, that the Williams of today would then be losing to the way past her prime, nearly retired Graf.
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Mick
Legend
to set up how you are going to strike the ball.
if you look at the players who play with a 2hbh like nadal and serena, etc..., when they got to the ball late, they would hit with a 1 hbh. sharapova would change the racquet hand.
the same is true for a 2hfh and to play with a 2hfh and 2hbh, you have got to get to the ball early most of the times and you have got to have great footwork to pull that off.
T or F
False!!
I think it's quite the opposite, that is why a 2-hander is such a weapon on return of serve, because you can take the ball so late!!
I don't know though maybe I'm just stupid!
I will say that it takes more energy to hit a 2hfh than 1hfh. I think that's true on the backhand side as well!
False!!
I think it's quite the opposite, that is why a 2-hander is such a weapon on return of serve, because you can take the ball so late!!
I don't know though maybe I'm just stupid!
I will say that it takes more energy to hit a 2hfh than 1hfh. I think that's true on the backhand side as well!
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thalivest
Banned
Yes you are right. If Seles was not stabbed she and Graf probably would have had about the same # of slams, probably both with somewhere from 18-20. That already makes your statement rating Justine as being a superior or even comparable player to prime Seles ridiculous in itself as Justine wouldnt even come close to Steff's major titles count had she been a contemporary of Graf. Especialy since she has proven herself to be so weak of will she retires in the absolute middle of what should be her prime at only 25 while dominating the game.
By the way a way past her prime Seles was 4-3 vs Henin. If we exclude the two 2003 matches were Seles was so injured she couldnt even move without discomfort which would force that years French Open to be her final ever tournament, then a way past her prime Seles was 4-1 vs Henin. Isnt it amazing when Henin in your words "Almost everything Seles' did on court, Justine did better" that she still could barely do squat vs a way past her prime and grossly overweight Seles during the last times she was reasonably healthy in 2001 and 2002.
Wait I already know what is coming next. Justine wasnt in her prime in 2001 and 2002 will be your rebuttal now. You know what the funniest thing is here. Williams fanatics like yourself love to praise the Williams head to head with Henin when nearly all their wins which gained their inflated head to head with her were in 2001 and 2002. The Williams hardly ever had to play a prime Henin except for Serena in mid 2003 and in 2007 (and now almost always lost of course). Yet that Venus and Serena got the benefit of beating up on a pre-prime Henin during their absolute peaks is ignored when gushing about the head to head (which even with that is still only 7-6 in Serena's case). Yet I suppose in this case with it being a way past her prime Seles doing so well vs Justine, rather than an absolute prime Williams, it will now be mentioned Justine wasnt yet at her peak. Too funny.
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Mick
Legend
you can take the ball late with a 2 hander but you have to be in position to take the ball late. if you are not in position, for instance federer just blasted a ball in the corner pocket and you ran to the ball but you are still not in the position to hit it back with a 2hfh, you either have to try to block it back with a 1hfh or let the ball go pass you.
about the return of serve, lot of aces would come from people not being in the position that would enable them to return the ball.
Warriorroger
Hall of Fame
You can't compare a prime Graf with a 29 year old Graf. Graf played that match on will, Rubin had worn her down the match before. 29 is middle-aged for tennis. Martina played a different game. Steffi played the power baseline game with an aging and tired body.The French and Wimbledon in 1999 were evidence of her mental strenght,
thalivest
Banned
First of all a bunch of matches, with only a couple exceptions that were a prime Williams vs a post stabbing Seles are pretty much irrelevant. Try putting the current out of shape and past their prime Williams (they are now the equivalent of where Seles was from 1997-2002 with the benefit of a much weaker field) vs the Seles of the early 90s and they would also be lucky to win 2 of 16 matches in that case.
That being said I have mentioned before I do think prime Williams are simply bad matchups for Seles, even probably prime Seles. They negate some of her biggest strengths, and her advantages dont really come into play much with the nature of the matchup either. I do think even prime Seles would have a hard time with prime Williams, much moreso than prime Graf. I think prime Williams are a far worse matchup for prime Seles than they would be for prime Graf. Tennis is a game alot about matchups of course.
That still doesnt change much about their place in the big picture of the history of the game, or how they match up vs Graf however.
egn
Hall of Fame
No truer words were ever spoken. The talent field in 1995 and 1996 was depleted same goes for 1994. First of all Wimbledon was still "fast grass" but baseliners were still making the final to challenge Graf. Womens tennis in the mid 90s was dead because of the Seles stabbing, Graf was playing against a talentless field just like the Williams today the one difference was Graf actually was dedicated to tennis. Even amidst all her injuries. The fact that Navratilova far out of shape and in her late 30s actually 37 and made the finals says alot about Graf's field. 37 year old woman could make a GS final.
Yea and Graf had trouble with Navratilova in her mid thirties, Chris Evert in her mid thirties and Lindsay Davenport. Big deal? Players struggle against players. Capriati was playing her best tennis in 00-03 way better than when Graf player her. Serena's best years are obviously 2002-03 and Graf's best yeras are 88 and 89. Although I feel Graf would win mroe than Serena if they played 8 slams in their best 2 years but I don't think she wins all 8. Serena would the Aussies, Graf wins both French, They probably split US Open and Graf wins both Wimbys.
Serena has a good mental game to are you telling me she does not intimidate her opponents? What talent was in Graf's field beside Graf. YOu had Vicario and Seles. Oh yea Seles got stabbed and came back playing like crap. Graf had Navratilova on grass at the start. Seles came along and posed an actual threat and took over the tour really. Then Graf's biggest rival was clay court champ Vicario who actually I feel was probably even the better player in 1994. Yet that was her only real year of note. Graf's field was just as depleted as the Williams Sister's. Serena 2002-2003 probably had more threats than Graf past 92.
Graf was not struggling against Evert into her mid thirties. Graf's first win over Evert was when Graf was 16 and Evert 31, neither player was in their prime but Graf was far more unproven and lower ranked and that point, and Graf won in straight sets on clay. Evert would lose 7 times in a row to Graf from that point on, and win a grand total of 1 set in those matches, and with the exception of that one 3 setter never win more than 8 games in any of their remaining matches, so your Evert giving Graf trouble into her mid 30s is nothing but an urban legend of sorts.
As for Navratilova, Martina also gave prime Seles trouble in her mid 30s, not just Graf. She won 4 out of 11 meetings with Seles from 91-early 93 at the peak of Seles's dominance, while she herself was aged 34 to 36. Graf won 6 of her 8 meetings with Navratilova from 88 onwards, so aging Navratilova in fact had even more success vs prime Seles than prime Graf. Wow what a hopeless old lady at that point, only holding her own vs two of the greatest players of all time. Also keep in mind that this a woman who despite ending up as arguably the greatest women player in history and with 18 slam singles did, did not even end a year with 2 slam titles and win her 4th slam title until turning 26. So it is little wonder she was playing well into her 30s when was such a late bloomer that she took until 26 to even begin becoming a dominant player and a frequent slam winner for the first time. If she were really just some washed up player at 30 the way many who begin to peak as teenagers were, when she didnt equal Sanchez Vicario's final slam tally until turning 26, and didnt even win a U.S Open until she was nearly 27, then she wouldnt be the GOAT candidate she currently is at all.
Your Davenport claim really cracks me up. Davenport only began to have any real success vs Graf in 1998-1999 when Graf was already half the player she used to be because of injuries and was now losing to the likes of Serna, Appelmans, Halard, Frazier, Sugiyama, all players she would have been able to beat left handed in her prime.
Navratilova at 37 > Safina, Kuznetsova, Ivanovic, Jankovic today. Sabatini from 87-93 >
Safina, Kuznetsova, Ivanovic, Jankovic today. Sanchez Vicario > Safina, Kuznetsova, Ivanovic, Jankovic today. Even Novotna and Martinez > Safina, Kuznetsova, Ivanovic, Jankovic today.
LOL what is worse now, having the late blooming, possibly all time queen in the longevity department, and possibly greatest ever Navratilova in a Wimbledon final at 37 (especialy when as you pointed out she was playing at such a high level she was still competitive with the great Graf and Seles into her mid 30s), or having Marian Bartoli in a Wimbledon final. Who would win if 37 year old Navratilova had played Bartoli at Wimbledon? Nuff said.
If Capriati was so amazing those years how come she lost 2 of her 4 meetings to a Seles who even you are admitting was obviously way past her prime and a shadow of her pre-stabbing self at that point (heck you say she was crap in 95-96, what on earth was she by 2001-2002 then) . Seles even had a rare bigtime choke in Capriati's Australian Open quarterfinal win otherwise it would be 1-3 Capriati vs a way past it Seles, which would have been a marginally better ratio than her 2-5 vs a prime Seles. I doubt she was much, if any better than the early 90s. Except for her career year in 2001 she was always around the 6th or 7th best player in the world during both of her so called primes, yet even prime Serena Williams couldnt buy a straight sets win over her.
Capriati was overall owned by Henin, Mauresmo, and Clijsters from 2002 onwards as well.
Serena didnt even play Australia in 2002 so how on earth could she win both Australian Opens. At the 2003 Australian Open she was down 5-1 in the 3rd set of the semis to Clijsters before a typical Clijsters choke, so I dont see how she wins that one either. I would give Serena 1 U.S Open and maybe 1 Wimbledon.
Yeah Sanchez Vicario was so weak that during the very best years of Venus's career from 2000-2002 she was still having massive trouble every time out with a Sanchez Vicario way past her prime. You actually have the gall to be calling someone the caliber of Sanchez Vicario weak when Serena's biggest rivals today are Jankovic and Safina, ROTFL!!!
Yep I mean the following years were nothing of note for the hopeless Sanchez Vicario:
1989- French Open Champion, denied Graf back to back calender slams after winning an amazing final. Quarters of both Wimbledon and the U.S Open. Breaks into top 5 for first time at only 17.
1991- semis of Australia, finals of French Open, quarters of Wimbledon, quarters of the U.S Open.
Regains spot in top 5 only behind such chumps as Seles, Graf, prime Sabatini, and Navratilova.
1992- semis of Australia, semis of French Open, finals of U.S Open, moves up to #4 in the world.
1993- semis of all the slams except Wimbledon, 4 tournament titles, #2 in the world.
1995- finals of all 3 slams, loses all time classic Wimbledon final to Steffi Graf, and tough 3 set final with Graf at the French Open.
1996- finals of both French and Wimbledon, finals of the Olympics. Lost another all time great final to Graf at the French Open.
By the way shame on Graf for so often having to go 3 sets with weak little Sanchez Vicario. I mean the supposably great Venus was only always doing that at the very end of Sanchez Vicario's career when she was a shadow of her old self. The poor Williams dont have to face such weaklings as an older Navratilova, Sanchez Vicario, and Sabatini. They instead face the amazing talents of Safina, Kuznetsova, the demented one, and the Serbian legendary vics duo, all armed and complete with double faults, non existant net games, non existant mental games, and a gauranteed 100 unforced errors a day.
You are right since reaching 3 slam finals in your first 5 slams back is sure playing like crap. It has taken the supposably amazing Serena almost 6 years since mid 2003 to make that many slam finals in that short a time span after all.
Yes Navratilova was only a threat on grass at that point. That is why she and Graf played an incredible French Open final in 87, and an incredible U.S Open final in 1989.
Yet Serena's competition since 2004 is even worse than Graf's past 92 and she has still managed only a whopping 4 slams in over 5 years vs it.
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GameSampras
Banned
Serena has a good mental game against the trash headcase Russians like Safina and the demented one Dementieva. And this era of WTA is much much weaker post 92 for Graf. The 90s were far more competitive than today. Lets face it. If Serena showed up in the shape she is in today with her committment to the game with Prime Seles and Graf heck maybe even a prime Hingis around she would beaten eaten for lunch.
This is the weakest era in WTA in recent history. Just having Kim and Justine would make it semi watchable
This is the weakest era in WTA in recent history. Just having Kim and Justine would make it semi watchable
egn
Hall of Fame
Well lets see 04 Serena was injuried 05 Serena was injuried and disappeared constantly 06 Serena entered 4 tournaments all year and 07 She started to come back.
Yes then fair enough. Graf struggled with Evert some at 30-31 when Graf herself was only 16 or younger and even further from her prime than Evert at that point
I didnt ever say Navratilova was in top form in 1994. I said she when she was holding her own vs Graf and Seles (although no doubt behind them) from 1991-early 1993 she was still playing pretty darn well, and given her possible GOAT status, the known fact she is a very late bloomer, and her well known longevity, hardly startling. In 1994 she actually really fell off and began playing at a much lower level than 1991-1993.
I never said there were no weak slam events back from 93-96 which is a far cry from agreeing the field was as weak as todays. 1994 was indeed a crummy Wimbledon with upsets to Graf, Sanchez Vicario, and Sabatini. The last 2 womens Wimbledons were a crummy Wimbledon with all the upsets which led to Bartoli into a final, and grass court clueless Dementieva along with 133-ranked Chinese player as the Williams semifinal opponents last year. That is even worse than a final between Martinez and 37 year old Navratilova in 1994. If you are going to use the 1994 Wimbledon as a way to lowball the 1994 field one could use the last 2 Wimbledons to do that to the current field in an even worse way.
Graf at 29 and 30 was even further past her prime IMO than Navratilova was from 33-36 due to a variety of factors: mainly the injuries which caught up with Graf and sabatoged her for good following 1996, the incredible longevity of Navratilova which is superior to all other women in history, the fact as mentioned Navratilova is an incredibly late bloomer (only getting her first 2 major year at 26). Navratilova from 34-36 was not having the # of unthinkable losses Graf was having at that point to Serena, Halard, Sugiyama, Appelmans, Frazier type players, especialy given the limited # of tournaments she was playing at that point.
Still I see what you are saying. I dont dispute though that Davenport is a very high quality player. She is no clown like Safina, Jankovic, and the wannabee top players of today. She is IMO far superior to Capriati who also has 3 majors. The Williams were alot stronger than they are now back then, and their competition like Davenport was also a heck of alot stronger back then compared to now. Womens tennis today cannot hold a candle to even the 1999-2003 period.
Henin is not even around anymore, and lo and behold the Williams are suddenly winning alot more with her gone. Henin actually still being around would indeed bolster your arguments to the strength of the current field, and also likely lessen the increasing slam counts of Serena imparticular, but such isnt the case. Sharapova hasnt been around for almost a year due to a serious shoulder injury which for all we know might end her career. Venus is far past her prime at this point as well, and is only bothering to try in 4 or 5 tournaments a year, basically hibernating outside Wimbledon and several other random events a year . Yes prime Venus is better than prime Sanchez Vicario, prime Sabatini, and and aging Navratilova. Yes prime Sharapova is better than prime Sabatini and aging Navratilova atleast. However those players dont exist right now. I would take prime Sanchez, prime Sabatini, and even an aging Navratilova over real Venus once in awhile and Sharapova hardly playing before her bum shoulder kicks up again which is all we really have now. If a year round focused Venus, a healthy Maria, and Henin were really Serena's current competition, not just in fantasy, you would have a point.
I have to say I think you underrate Sabatini quite alot, especialy to refer to her as a 1 slam wonder. One would think you were talking about the likes of Majoli or Myskina, players that cant even carry Sabatini's jockstrap to any who followed her career. She really is one of the best players in history to win only 1 major. She has 18 slam semifinal appearances. She very nearly won the 91 Wimbledon title over Graf as well when she served for the match twice. She won 27 titles in her career, many of those tier 1 titles. She has won the WTA Championships final, the biggest non slam event, twice in her career. She has beaten Graf over a quarter of the times they played. She was a consistent top 5 for over 6 years. She is really unlucky her entire peak of 87-mid 93 was when first Graf and a near prime Navratilova were the top 2 for about 3 years, then Graf and Seles were the top 3 for another 3 years or so. What tougher competition could you get at the very top. In just about any other era she would have won more. I consider her head and shoulders above Martinez and Novotna, despite the respective slam count.
I wouldnt be so sure on your claims of Safina, Jankovic, and Dementieva finishing off with careers even like Sabatini, Novotna, and Martinez. I doubt any of those 3 players ever winning a major.
Really who is a better player, an in form Martinez even on grass or Bartoli? Martinez was #3 in the world at that point, and had made the Wimbledon semis the previous year. She had a 3-1 lifetime head to head with Navratilova at that point, granted all matches on clay. It was not a huge shock she won that final vs a 37 year old Martina, not nearly to the extent historic fluke slam finalist Bartoli would have been.
The players you mentioned Graf struggling with though are far better than Capriati, atleast ones she struggled with to the same extent Serena struggled with Capriati.
Fine, if Sanchez Vicario was Graf's only competition from 93-95, than Serena currently has nobody with Sharapova on the shelf injured, Henin retired, and Venus only popping up to play serious tennis these days several times a year. Atleast Graf knew Sanchez was going to be there all the time for her to deal with during that period, you pretty much know Venus these days wont most of the time (although in fairness you know at Wimbledon she will be), and dont know if Maria (bum shoulder) will or ever will be again really.
If 89 is the only year you could mention for Sanchez Vicario regarding greatness, then by that standard the only years one could mention for even Serena regarding greatness so far are 2002 and 2003, and for Venus 2000 and 2001.
Right, so quite obviously by far the best 15 month stretch of tennis in all Seles's post stabbing years was the same 15 month stretch Graf last played full time healthy tennis before her prime ending for good with injury after 1996. So Graf in fact faced the best you would see of post stabbing Seles (still not pre stabbing Seles but better than anything thereafter) in the 15 months of her own long standing prime as well.
I agree 87 was not Graf's prime, but Martina was still playing some darn good tennis that year to straight set Graf in the Wimbledon and U.S Open finals and take her to 3 in the French Open finals. Remember though just as we could limit Martina post-87 mostly to a major fast court threat, we could limit someone like Venus (Serena's main rival before Justine) almost her whole career to almost only a major fast court threat, with limited success and mostly mediocre showings on slower surfaces even in her prime.
Serena in 2004 wasnt injured, she was beaten by Capriati and Sharapova in the slams. In 2005 and 2006 I will give you. In 2007 she came back to somehwat strong consistent form yet was having her butt regularly whooped by Henin, now Justine is gone, and Serena is mysteriously winning again.
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