Grand Slam Titles by Age - ATG 3

S

Sputnik Bulgorov

Professional
Lew II said:
slam h2h vs Big4 at age 28-31:

Djokovic 9-0
Federer 5-7

Djokovic dealt much better with the same players.
Click to expand...

The circumstances are different. Djokovic is dealing with his peers. Murray is retired now and Nadal can barely play a few tournaments in a row without being injured. Djokovic has no younger rivals.

Fed was dealing with the same players who were at their absolute peak while being older himself.

Anyway, I'm not trying to knock Djokovic. His mastery over Nadal is incredible. I just wish you'd acknowledge that Fed hit his 30s in a much tougher era the same way you say that he hit his peak in an easier era.
 
Lew II

Lew II

G.O.A.T.
Sputnik Bulgorov said:
The circumstances are different. Djokovic is dealing with his peers. Murray is retired now and Nadal can barely play a few tournaments in a row without being injured. Djokovic has no younger rivals.

Fed was dealing with the same players who were at their absolute peak while being older himself.

Anyway, I'm not trying to knock Djokovic. His mastery over Nadal is incredible. I just wish you'd acknowledge that Fed hit his 30s in a much tougher era the same way you say that he hit his peak in an easier era.
Click to expand...

In the 7 slams Djokovic won aged 28-31, he beat among the others (excluding Djokovic from the ranking):

no.1 Nadal
no.1 Nadal
no.1 Federer
no.1 Federer
no.1 Murray
no.1 Murray
no.2 Federer
no.3 Del Potro

I just don't see this as much easier than what Federer had to deal with at the same age.
 
S

Sputnik Bulgorov

Professional
Lew II said:
In the 7 slams Djokovic won aged 28-31, he beat among the others (excluding Djokovic from the ranking):

no.1 Nadal
no.1 Nadal
no.1 Federer
no.1 Federer
no.1 Murray
no.1 Murray
no.2 Federer
no.3 Del Potro

I just don't see this as much easier than what Federer had to deal with at the same age.
Click to expand...

Again, that's an incredible achievement. Like I said, I find Djokovic's mastery over his main rivals incredible, but you're refusing to acknowledge the circumstances. Nadal and Murray are Djokovic's peers. Federer is from an earlier generation. This is not to say they are not tough competition. I am saying Federer had it tougher because he faced those same players at their peak while being older himself. Djokovic, and Nadal by extension, have faced non-existent pressure from the younger players.

From 2010 to 2012, Fed had 4 losses in Slam SFs to peak Djokovic and 2 losses in a SF and F to peak Nadal, both of who were aged 23-26 during that time frame. 22-25 years Djokovic is tougher than 29-32 years Nadal. 23-26 years Nadal is tougher than 34-37 years Federer. Its easier for a 30+ year old player to face peers or older players than younger players. It was a nightmare scenario for Fed, and even he couldn't overcome it with a few exceptions.
 
Lew II

Lew II

G.O.A.T.
Sputnik Bulgorov said:
Again, that's an incredible achievement. Like I said, I find Djokovic's mastery over his main rivals incredible, but you're refusing to acknowledge the circumstances. Nadal and Murray are Djokovic's peers. Federer is from an earlier generation. This is not to say they are not tough competition. I am saying Federer had it tougher because he faced those same players at their peak while being older himself. Djokovic, and Nadal by extension, have faced non-existent pressure from the younger players.

From 2010 to 2012, Fed had 4 losses in Slam SFs to peak Djokovic and 2 losses in a SF and F to peak Nadal, both of who were aged 23-26 during that time frame. 22-25 years Djokovic is tougher than 29-32 years Nadal. 23-26 years Nadal is tougher than 34-37 years Federer. Its easier for a 30+ year old player to face peers or older players than younger players. It was a nightmare scenario for Fed, and even he couldn't overcome it with a few exceptions.
Click to expand...

I just don't believe in peak age, you already know that.
 
S

Sputnik Bulgorov

Professional
Lew II said:
I just don't believe in peak age, you already know that.
Click to expand...

To each his own. You might change your mind if a young player starts beating Djokovic in the slams, although its highly unlikely.

I think Djokovic will extend his lead even further. He might shatter all records for players aged over 30.
 
Lew II

Lew II

G.O.A.T.
tennis_pro said:
Was Agassi at his peak in 2003? Maybe we should reevaluate his efforts vs Federer at the time.
Click to expand...

Yes he was. Not in 2004-05. Agassi is quite overrated by the way, the best player he beat in 7 slam finals out of 8 was Kafelnikov.

tennis_pro said:
What would you do without wikipedia, man?
Click to expand...
What do you do without wikipedia?

At least someone cares about what I post. I don't remember anything from you.
 
tennis_pro

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
Lew II said:
Yes he was. Not in 2004-05. Agassi is quite overrated by the way, the best player he beat in 7 slam finals out of 8 was Kafelnikov.
Click to expand...
So he went from playing at his peak to being an old man with a broken man within a year?


Lew II said:
What do you do without wikipedia?

At least someone cares about what I post. I don't remember anything from you.
Click to expand...
You're a laughing stock here, don't flatter yourself.
 
Towny

Towny

Hall of Fame
Lew II said:
In the 7 slams Djokovic won aged 28-31, he beat among the others (excluding Djokovic from the ranking):

no.1 Nadal
no.1 Nadal
no.1 Federer
no.1 Federer
no.1 Murray
no.1 Murray
no.2 Federer
no.3 Del Potro

I just don't see this as much easier than what Federer had to deal with at the same age.
Click to expand...
You're simply being disingenuous. Federer turned 28 in later 2009. The following year, 2010 was one of Nadal's best years. Djokovic also started to improve significantly towards the end of the year. 2011 is considered Djokovic's second best year and one of Nadal's best too. 2012 had prime Djokovic, Nadal and Murray. 2013 had prime Djokovic with peak Murray and Nadal.

Djokovic turned 28 in 2015. 2015 was one of Nadal's worst years on the tour. Statistically, it was a weak year for Fed too. It was prime Murray. 2016 had 2 garbage years from Fed and Nadal. Murray was at his peak. 2017 were decent years for both Fed and Nadal - Djokovic played them ZERO times in slams. 2018 had a pretty garbage Federer following AO and no Murray. Nadal was decent admittedly but clearly showing signs of age

The competition they faced at an equivalent age is not comparable. At all. Djokovic is the youngest of the Big 4. When he's old, the rest will be older still
 
tennis_pro

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
Lew II said:
Yes, why not.

Compare 2003 to 2004 Federer, or 2012 to 2013 Federer, 2017 to 2018...
Click to expand...
You're talking about Federer going through major transition in the first case and getting injured in the 2nd. What exactly changed for Agassi from 2003 to 2004 that he changed from peak Andre to old Andre?
 
Lew II

Lew II

G.O.A.T.
tennis_pro said:
You're talking about Federer going through major transition in the first case and getting injured in the 2nd. What exactly changed for Agassi from 2003 to 2004 that he changed from peak Andre to old Andre?
Click to expand...
His results objectively were much worse.
 
Lew II

Lew II

G.O.A.T.
Towny said:
Federer's results were objectively worse in 2015 compared to 2004-7. Will you concede this makes him better in 2004-7 than 2015?
Click to expand...
Overall yes.

But Old-erer has some terrific numbers that old Agassi didn't have, like the 24-2 score against top10 not named Djokovic from Wimbledon 2014 to Australian Open 2016 (81.5% of sets won), and 33-2 if we extend it with 2017 after he came back from the injury.
 
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tennis_pro

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
Lew II said:
Overall yes.

But Old-erer has some terrific numbers that old Agassi didn't have, like the 24-2 score against top10 not named Djokovic from Wimbledon 2014 to Australian Open 2016, and 33-2 if we extend it with 2017.
Click to expand...
And how do you make an objective claim that the players ranked 3-10 were better in 2014/2015 than in 2004?
 
tennis_pro

tennis_pro

Bionic Poster
Lew II said:
Not what I claimed.
Click to expand...
My point is clear - the top 10 never stays the same. It was completely different in 2004 than in 2015 so how do you make a judgment that Federer beating them a lot in 2015 is impressive?

You can't just look at the stats without seeing how both opponents played, the context of the match etc. and make a judgement.
 
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titoelcolombiano

titoelcolombiano

Legend
Updated

Rafa moves ahead of Fed at age 33. Djoker has two slams left this year to try and equal Fedal on 17 at age 32.

Rafa is the GOAT so far at 33 (Djoker needs 3 of the next 7 slams to join him or 4 to take the lead) and wins # 18 three years younger than Fed.

Age 32:
Fed 17 (2013)
Rafa 17 (2018)
Djoker 15 (2 slams to come in 2019)

Age 33:
Rafa 18 (2 slams to come in 2019)
Fed 17 (2014)
Djoker ?? (2020)
 
TripleATeam

TripleATeam

G.O.A.T.
titoelcolombiano said:
Updated

Rafa moves ahead of Fed at age 33. Djoker has two slams left this year to try and equal Fedal on 17 at age 32.

Rafa is the GOAT so far at 33 (Djoker needs 3 of the next 7 slams to join him or 4 to take the lead) and wins # 18 three years younger than Fed.

Age 32:
Fed 17 (2013)
Rafa 17 (2018)
Djoker 15 (2 slams to come in 2019)

Age 33:
Rafa 18 (2 slams to come in 2019)
Fed 17 (2014)
Djoker ?? (2020)
Click to expand...
Sure, most slams. I still hesitate to call him GOAT with only a 1 difference with his lack of time at #1 and lack of WTF titles.
 
DSH

DSH

Talk Tennis Guru
titoelcolombiano said:
Updated

Rafa moves ahead of Fed at age 33. Djoker has two slams left this year to try and equal Fedal on 17 at age 32.

Rafa is the GOAT so far at 33 (Djoker needs 3 of the next 7 slams to join him or 4 to take the lead) and wins # 18 three years younger than Fed.

Age 32:
Fed 17 (2013)
Rafa 17 (2018)
Djoker 15 (2 slams to come in 2019)

Age 33:
Rafa 18 (2 slams to come in 2019)
Fed 17 (2014)
Djoker ?? (2020)
Click to expand...



Nadal is now the youngest tennis male player to win 18 Majors.
At 33, he is almost 2 and a half years younger than Federer when the Swiss won in Australia in 2017.
How transcendental was that final between these two huge players!
:whistle:
 
titoelcolombiano

titoelcolombiano

Legend
TripleATeam said:
Sure, most slams. I still hesitate to call him GOAT with only a 1 difference with his lack of time at #1 and lack of WTF titles.
Click to expand...

He still needs to build out his legacy but there is time and he is still at the top of the game.

I think he needs RG next year and another slam between now and then. If he finishes with more slams than Fed and around 10 more M1000, the WTF deficit won’t be too much of a problem for him
 
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titoelcolombiano

titoelcolombiano

Legend
DSH said:
Nadal is now the youngest tennis male player to win 18 Majors.
At 33, he is almost 2 and a half years younger than Federer when the Swiss won in Australia in 2017.
How transcendental was that final between these two huge players!
:whistle:
Click to expand...

Absolutely- that 5th set was crucial for Fed, I sense that he knew that too
 
DSH

DSH

Talk Tennis Guru
titoelcolombiano said:
He still needs to build out his legacy but there is time and he is still at the top of the game.

I think he needs RG next year and another slam between now and then. If he finishes with more slams than Fed and around 10 more M1000, the WTF deficit won’t be too much of a problem for hom
Click to expand...

After his wedding, he should play Vienna or Paris Bercy as a preparation to the WTF.
He still has a chance to win that title that is still resisting him.
 
TripleATeam

TripleATeam

G.O.A.T.
titoelcolombiano said:
He still needs to build out his legacy but there is time and he is still at the top of the game.

I think he needs RG next year and another slam between now and then. If he finishes with more slams than Fed and around 10 more M1000, the WTF deficit won’t be too much of a problem for hom
Click to expand...
Honestly, just winning 1 more slam, regardless of surface, I think would put him above a 17-slam Federer. A 2-slam difference is quite significant. Another non-clay slam would be worth more, sure.

The big question, I think, is what if Nadal won the WTF 2019? I don't know myself. Nadal would have 2 more slams, would have won the WTF, despite having 5 less of them, would have many more masters, and would be roughly equal in terms of titles.

Nadal would lead in: Slams, Gold medal in singles, H2H, Masters
Would trail in: WTF, Weeks at #1, and YE#1.
 
titoelcolombiano

titoelcolombiano

Legend
TripleATeam said:
Honestly, just winning 1 more slam, regardless of surface, I think would put him above a 17-slam Federer. A 2-slam difference is quite significant. Another non-clay slam would be worth more, sure.

The big question, I think, is what if Nadal won the WTF 2019? I don't know myself. Nadal would have 2 more slams, would have won the WTF, despite having 5 less of them, would have many more masters, and would be roughly equal in terms of titles.

Nadal would lead in: Slams, Gold medal in singles, H2H, Masters
Would trail in: WTF, Weeks at #1, and YE#1.
Click to expand...

There comes a point (and I don’t know what that point is) where Fed’s comparatively low M1000 count is a liability for him just like WTF is for Rafa.

If Djoker hold weeks and YE # 1 records, Djoker and Rafa have 10+ M1000 lead over Fed and Rafa equals or overhauls the slam count, I don’t know how Fed could be called THE definative GOAT. It certainly wouldn’t be clear for any of the three but the ‘Fed is certainly GOAT’ line that we’ve been prematurely fed (no pun intended) for 12 years wouldn’t hold up.

Agreed that Rafa needs to squeeze one more YE # 1 and boost his weeks closer to 250.
 
S

Sputnik Bulgorov

Professional
I was expecting this update! And I've been expecting that Rafa would overtake Fed age for age because of Fed's long slam drought from 2012 to 2017. Djokovic will be right in that discussion, too.

For as long as Rafa remains a lock for Roland Garros, he will definitely have his chances to be all-time slam leader, and it shouldn't matter if how many of them come from the French. Congratulations to Rafa and his fans.
 
titoelcolombiano

titoelcolombiano

Legend
Congratulations Djokovic - 8 from 8 in Australia. First Medvedev and now Thiem have been turned away in successive slams by the old guard.

Rafa is the fist man to be world number 1 in three different decades and Djokovic becomes the first man to win a slam in three different decades.
 
titoelcolombiano

titoelcolombiano

Legend
Djokovic now gunning to be the second youngest man to win 18 slams behind Nadal. Federer won # 18 the year he turned 36 so just one more over the next three years will do it. If Djokovic wins RG and Wimbledon this year he will become the youngest to win 19 slams.
 
TripleATeam

TripleATeam

G.O.A.T.
titoelcolombiano said:
Djokovic now gunning to be the second youngest man to win 18 slams behind Nadal. Federer won # 18 the year he turned 36 so just one more over the next three years will do it. If Djokovic wins RG and Wimbledon this year he will become the youngest to win 19 slams.
Click to expand...
Only RG and Wimbledon, or is it possible with Wimbledon and USO?
 
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