Graphene Instability

TennisCanada1

Professional
I changed from the IG Prestige Pro to the Graphene Speed MP modded with lead at 12, silicone and a leather grip. (SW is like 325)

I enjoy the bigger sweet spot and the free power, but I find instability in the actual throat of the racquet when I make contact. I just don't feel that its solid upon impact and I don't think it has to do with the weight of the racquet, as its pretty weighted up already.

I think it has to do with graphene since its placed at the polar ends of the frame, but I also read that they barely put any graphene in the frame.
What are your experiences?

What do you think, and does anyone else not like the graphene?
 

TimothyO

Hall of Fame
if Head included enough graphene to change a frame's weight and balance it would cost thousands of dollars instead of $200. there's not enough graphene to matter.
 

SpinToWin

Talk Tennis Guru
Graphene = hate. I despise the Graphene updates of both Radicals and Prestige. Feel really hollow and are not good for customization thanks to the weight distribution.
Graphene actually is placed in the throat of the racquet, as it is lighter and more rigid than any other material. That way they can distribute most of the mass to the head and the grip. However, because Graphene is so rigid, it feels very stiff, so Graphene racquets generally have a very stiff and light throat (hence the instability in the throat I presume). Honestly, I hope you haven't sold or discarded the IG Prestige Pros... They may be more demanding, but you get so much more from them. I would switch back if I were you.
 

TennisCanada1

Professional
See, this is where I'm confused. The first reply says that the graphene doesn't make a difference and the second post is the exact opposite. I'm sure some of you are thinking that I should decide for myself, but its hard because it's not like I used the non-graphene version of the speed before; I used the Prestige Pro so I cant compare.

I sold my PP's because although I used it for 2 years, and it served me well, when I went back to it from the Speed to try, it felt like a 90sq inch racquet. It was so so solid, but I got used to the modern bigger sweet spot and I find its MUCH easier to hit approach shots with the speed for some reason. I want the solidity of the PP but with the attributes of the speed. I'm ok to try a 98 because I heard that the PP is a true 95, not actually a 98. I was thinking of trying the Pure Control Tour..
 

SpinToWin

Talk Tennis Guru
See, this is where I'm confused. The first reply says that the graphene doesn't make a difference and the second post is the exact opposite. I'm sure some of you are thinking that I should decide for myself, but its hard because it's not like I used the non-graphene version of the speed before; I used the Prestige Pro so I cant compare.

I sold my PP's because although I used it for 2 years, and it served me well, when I went back to it from the Speed to try, it felt like a 90sq inch racquet. It was so so solid, but I got used to the modern bigger sweet spot and I find its MUCH easier to hit approach shots with the speed for some reason. I want the solidity of the PP but with the attributes of the speed. I'm ok to try a 98 because I heard that the PP is a true 95, not actually a 98. I was thinking of trying the Pure Control Tour..

The Pure Control Tour will be similar, but not nearly as nice as the Prestige Pro in the feel department. It's a shame that you sold them. Once you get used to them they're plenty forgiving and stable. It's just about moving well, then you've got it. Also, selling a racquet after trying a completely different style of racquet? That's not the smartest thing to do (no offence). There is no perfect racquet, there will always be a tradeoff in some way when comparing different racquets.
 

SpinToWin

Talk Tennis Guru
If instability is this much of an issue, then enjoy experimenting with lead at 3/9 and maybe in the throat. Alternatively you can try the Graphene Speed Pro or the Wilson Blade 98 16x19
 

TennisCanada1

Professional
No, like I said I'm happy I sold them. I was very used to the PP, but I prefer the Speed MP overall because of the bigger sweet spot and free power. I just want a more stable offering. The Pure Control looks to be more forgiving than the PP
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
It's possible that people just don't like the polarization and the graphene is irrelevant.

It's possible also that if the graphene does stabilise the throat of the racquet while making it lighter that people do not like this hollow feeling ...

and perceive instability or flutter more than they normally would as a result.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
Polarization is a major change to racquet design, and one of its drawbacks is the feeling in the throat.

There's a view that weighting up the throat is the best way to produce stable power and you can see that idea on many racquets.

If you don't like a polarized feel then you are well advised not to buy most of the current Head line up.

If you do like it then you can get used to this feeling.
 
Last edited:

TimothyO

Hall of Fame
See, this is where I'm confused. The first reply says that the graphene doesn't make a difference and the second post is the exact opposite. I'm sure some of you are thinking that I should decide for myself, but its hard because it's not like I used the non-graphene version of the speed before; I used the Prestige Pro so I cant compare.

I sold my PP's because although I used it for 2 years, and it served me well, when I went back to it from the Speed to try, it felt like a 90sq inch racquet. It was so so solid, but I got used to the modern bigger sweet spot and I find its MUCH easier to hit approach shots with the speed for some reason. I want the solidity of the PP but with the attributes of the speed. I'm ok to try a 98 because I heard that the PP is a true 95, not actually a 98. I was thinking of trying the Pure Control Tour..

Your confusing Graphene and other handwavium with version updates.

The YouTek, IG, and Graphene versions of a given frame can feel different regardless of IG, or Graphene or any other BS. Frames are composed of graphite sheets laid at different angles and different thicknesses. Head might release an IG Speed and a Graphene Speed and they could feel completely different not because of IG or Graphene but because of how the frame is made.

Graphene is extremely expensive. Search the forum and you'll find references to the per gram cost. It's simply too expensive to include enough to do something. So it's probably not Graphene that accounts for the feel of Head's graphene series. It's simply how they've arranged the graphite.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
There were Head patents published here that showed sheets of graphene being used, but layups apparently do change in all sorts of ways.

Head marketing would lead one, quite understandably, to blame graphene if one did not like the hollow feeling in the throat.
 

vsbabolat

G.O.A.T.
Polarization is a major change to racquet design, and one of its drawbacks is the feeling in the throat.

There's a view that weighting up the throat is the best way to produce stable power and you can see that idea on many racquets.

If you don't like a polarized feel then you are well advised not to buy most of the current Head line up.

If you do like it then you can get used to this feeling.

I have been having on my racquets what is called on here as polarized setup for 2 decades. Its nothing new customizing like this especially with "Pro Stock". There is nothing new being brought out. What people dont like is the feel from the layup that HEAD has chosen to implement in this line of racquets.
 

vsbabolat

G.O.A.T.
Your confusing Graphene and other handwavium with version updates.

The YouTek, IG, and Graphene versions of a given frame can feel different regardless of IG, or Graphene or any other BS. Frames are composed of graphite sheets laid at different angles and different thicknesses. Head might release an IG Speed and a Graphene Speed and they could feel completely different not because of IG or Graphene but because of how the frame is made.

Graphene is extremely expensive. Search the forum and you'll find references to the per gram cost. It's simply too expensive to include enough to do something. So it's probably not Graphene that accounts for the feel of Head's graphene series. It's simply how they've arranged the graphite.

Accurate and correct!!! There are over 10,000 ways to put together a racquet. Its BS marketing that are driving the racquet companies and not R&D.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
It is new for a company to implement polarization across the whole range.

The reality is that separating out layup from graphene and then from polarization is possible, but that's not what you get here.

They've also made a few of their iconic racquets lighter, so there is another variable.


I have been having on my racquets what is called on here as polarized setup for 2 decades. Its nothing new customizing like this especially with "Pro Stock". There is nothing new being brought out. What people dont like is the feel from the layup that HEAD has chosen to implement in this line of racquets.
 
Last edited:

TennisCanada1

Professional
Yea so its not the graphene per say, but its the layup that I don't like. I really enjoyed the solidity of the PP. I love the sweet spot and forgiveness of the Speed MP, and the fact that its customized to 325 SW and silicone allows for good plowthrough, the throat at contact feels like its 'breaking'. I don't know how else to describe it. I guess I like traditionally layup racquets, but I find that the Speed MP is more maneuverable. Like with the PP I can't hit nearly as good approach shots and such as the Speed MP. Is the Pure Control Tour a worthy demo?
 

vsbabolat

G.O.A.T.
It is new for a company to implement polarization across the whole range.

The reality is that separating out layup from graphene and then from polarization is possible, but that's not what you get here.

They've also made a few of their iconic racquets lighter, so there is another variable.

Its not difficult or new making a racquet lighter. There is no new tech in that at all.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
I added lightness because it is another variable that may contribute to feel, which of course it does.

In fact, a lot of technologies are just ways of playing with weight
 

vsbabolat

G.O.A.T.
I added lightness because it is another variable that may contribute to feel, which of course it does.

In fact, a lot of technologies are just ways of playing with weight

Name one new tech from the last 5 years that is playing with weight.

Carbon sheets come in different weights and adding the weight during manufacture where its desired. Racquets came in SuperLight, Light, LightMedium, Medium all in the same model. Playing around with the weight is nothing new.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
You are just trying to resolve the issue in terms of layup and no one has any specific information about such other than through patents.



Name one new tech from the last 5 years that is playing with weight.

Carbon sheets come in different weights........
 

vsbabolat

G.O.A.T.
You are just trying to resolve the issue in terms of layup and no one has any specific information about such other than through patents.

You made a statement that: "lots of new tech are ways of playing with weight." I would have thought you had at least one in mind to make a statement like that?
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
I'm still waiting for your precise description of the lay up of the carbon sheets in the entire Head range.


You made a statement that: "lots of new tech are ways of playing with weight." I would have thought you had at least one in mind to make a statement like that?
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
The Pure Control Tour is not polarised, from all reports, but the Pure Storm Tour that I had did indeed seem polarised.

The PCT seems awfully low powered, but if you like that ... or you could add lead ... play with weight!
 
Last edited:

counterpuncher

Hall of Fame
If instability is this much of an issue, then enjoy experimenting with lead at 3/9 and maybe in the throat.
Back on topic I agree with this summary. I have been playing around with some lead tape on mine, as I would like a little more torsional stability. 2 grams at 10 & 2 has helped, but you can try weight at 3 and 9 as it won't effect the SW as much.
 
Last edited:

cork_screw

Hall of Fame
I'm a big fan of the head speed line. But I could not stand the stability issues of the Speed Graphene Pro. It flutters and is really rocky the closer you get to the edge of the racquet. That was not the case for me with the IG Speed. That beast was not only a spin monster, but a rock solid frame. I still think that is the better of the two speeds. The Graphene Speed was like a pre-made kit, pre assembled that you give to people to widen the audience appeal, but the IG Speed is like you give them the bare bone materials and they create their own project from scratch. For me I got so much more out of that racquet. My volleys with the graphene speed were very very disappointing. I'm pretty sound volleyer, but it lacks a little je ne sais quoi. From the net and transition, but also from the ground and overall.
 

SpinToWin

Talk Tennis Guru
I'm a big fan of the head speed line. But I could not stand the stability issues of the Speed Graphene Pro. It flutters and is really rocky the closer you get to the edge of the racquet. That was not the case for me with the IG Speed. That beast was not only a spin monster, but a rock solid frame. I still think that is the better of the two speeds. The Graphene Speed was like a pre-made kit, pre assembled that you give to people to widen the audience appeal, but the IG Speed is like you give them the bare bone materials and they create their own project from scratch. For me I got so much more out of that racquet. My volleys with the graphene speed were very very disappointing. I'm pretty sound volleyer, but it lacks a little je ne sais quoi. From the net and transition, but also from the ground and overall.

Have you tried the IG Speed Pro? :D
18mm straight beam with 68 stiffness and 335 g unstrung with balance at 31cm (a swingweight around 340 I believe). THAT is a Monster (but too stiff for me :p)
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
... we'd cut the palms down together and turn the leaves into a net and chisel racquets out of the wood. Then we'd milk the rubber trees for sap and just when we're all set up to play he'd say 'where's my Prestige Classic mid'



... btw, I would pay to see bartleby and vsbabolat trapped on an island together.
 

burn1986

Banned
The new Heads suck, graphene or not. This is old news. Simply hang on to the IGs and they will have some new racquets out in a year or two.

I've tried the Blade 98 and Speed MP but have had elbow issues with both. Elbow and shoulder with the Speed MP.
 

vsbabolat

G.O.A.T.
... we'd cut the palms down together and turn the leaves into a net and chisel racquets out of the wood. Then we'd milk the rubber trees for sap and just when we're all set up to play he'd say 'where's my Prestige Classic mid'

Under those circumstance I have no problem using wood.:)
 

uk_skippy

Hall of Fame
I think it has to do with graphene since its placed at the polar ends of the frame, but I also read that they barely put any graphene in the frame.

Graphene isn't placed at the ends of the rqt, but only in the shaft. By using graphene in the throat area, they 'remove' weight which would have been the and moved it to the tip and handle. This gives the 'polarised' feel of the rqt. With your mods you've made it even more polarised and increased the effect. This may cause the throat area to become more unstable.

When I tried the Graphene Prestige I ended up putting 5g of lead in the throat and it then played more like a 'proper' rqt i.e. giving it back some stability in that position.

Regards

Paul
 

spaceman_spiff

Hall of Fame
the throat at contact feels like its 'breaking'.

To be honest, I got that same feel from the IG Speed MP 18x20. I switched to the IG Speed Pro for other reasons, but an added bonus was the more solid feel when it flexes.

It might have something to do with the shape and size of the cross section and the thickness and layout of the materials on the Speed MP's across multiple versions.
 

ultradr

Legend
I'm a big fan of the head speed line. But I could not stand the stability issues of the Speed Graphene Pro. It flutters and is really rocky the closer you get to the edge of the racquet. That was not the case for me with the IG Speed. That beast was not only a spin monster, but a rock solid frame. I still think that is the better of the two speeds. The Graphene Speed was like a pre-made kit, pre assembled that you give to people to widen the audience appeal, but the IG Speed is like you give them the bare bone materials and they create their own project from scratch. For me I got so much more out of that racquet. My volleys with the graphene speed were very very disappointing. I'm pretty sound volleyer, but it lacks a little je ne sais quoi. From the net and transition, but also from the ground and overall.

Ah.. from this, I finally get what the issue is about the polarized setup.
 

cork_screw

Hall of Fame
Have you tried the IG Speed Pro? :D
18mm straight beam with 68 stiffness and 335 g unstrung with balance at 31cm (a swingweight around 340 I believe). THAT is a Monster (but too stiff for me :p)

I haven't, but thanks for the recommendation. I am a fan of the speed line up until they release the graphene stuff. That stuff seems to cause a bit unstability. And I don't think the new graphene gets as much spin as the IG. I gotta check out that pro line. I'm curious what the 16x19 pattern does, cause I thought the 18x20 had monster spin and it's quite unusual for an 18x20 to be so spin friendly, but I am a big fan of the IG. I'll do some research on the pro version. I need to stock up on the IG's before they get harder to find on the bay
 

cork_screw

Hall of Fame
... we'd cut the palms down together and turn the leaves into a net and chisel racquets out of the wood. Then we'd milk the rubber trees for sap and just when we're all set up to play he'd say 'where's my Prestige Classic mid'

Are you sure it wouldn't turn out like reservoir dogs where you both end up killing each other at the same time?
 

TennisCanada1

Professional
try modifying the Speed first, how about that? Use depolarized setup modifications (lead at 3/9 and the top of the handle). That should remove the instabilities you are witnessing.

There's already silicone and a leather grip, and I have lead at 12 under the grommet. I don't want it to be any less headlight than it is, so should I just remove the lead at 12 and try the same amount at 3 & 9? Will it increase the SW if I do that? (I am ok to increase the SW, I want to stabilize this thing)
 

SpinToWin

Talk Tennis Guru
There's already silicone and a leather grip, and I have lead at 12 under the grommet. I don't want it to be any less headlight than it is, so should I just remove the lead at 12 and try the same amount at 3 & 9? Will it increase the SW if I do that? (I am ok to increase the SW, I want to stabilize this thing)

weight at 3/9 stabilizes MUCH more than at 12. I told you to use a depolarized lead placement as this will counter the polarization which causes the instability in the throat.
Again: place lead at 3/9 and on the top of the grip/bottom of the shaft. This depolarizes the racquet and gives it noticeably more stability. Also, you can add more weight as SW will not increase as quickly. Just add lead until you reach your desired swingweight and the racquet should be rock solid.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
I'm with Spin To Win..
Perimeter weighting helps keep the face from deflecting, while lead at 12 is most efficient for head weighting, but it can allow the racket to twist in your hand.
Must be mental, but it seems a long strip inside the head, along the sides, is more solid than wrapping a bunch of lead between the strings in 3+ wraps.
 

Matt H.

Professional
i'd venture to say there is almost no actual graphene in these racquets.

according to a few articles i've read, the cost of manufacturing graphene is in the order of over $10,000 for the size of a postage stamp.

How much do you think ends up on a $200 retail item?

Head probably sprinkles some graphene dust on it. LOL
 

burn1986

Banned
It doesn't really matter if they have it or not. Whatever they did to the racquets that have the Graphene label on them has ruined Head's Radical and Prestige line, as well as a lot of players' arms and shoulders.

These racquets have the feel of hitting a rock with an aluminum bat.
 

cork_screw

Hall of Fame
Finally tested the radical and it was very disappointing. It felt like it was suppressing some of my power. The more power I put into it, very little power came out and the only result was that it started to bother my wrist with trying to over compensate for it. I did like the feel, but my balls didn't have the same zip with this racquet. I felt a similar disappointment with the speed, minus the fact that I felt it played a bit more loopy but without the immense and heavy spin of the IG predecessor. I thought the IG line was pretty good overall, the radical and the speed really won me over.

I doubt there's graphene in it either. But if there is, it's probably the poorman's graphene. Which is probably pencil shavings around the inner throat. Just so they can tag it as having some without getting sued. But whatever is in it, I don't think it affects the racquet. I think it's just the labeling of the "technology" It probably plays the same with or without the additive of the "graphene" that's there if there is any to begin with. It probably makes a nominal difference. It probably has more to do with the frame design and its composition of whatever is the lionshare of the layup.

Whatever the case, I'm going over to dunlop until they come out with something as offputting as the graphene stuff. I know there's a good chunk of love affair for the speed graphene, but I was not a fan of that update.
 
Top