Grass has greater strength in depth of competition than clay

Firstservingman said:
This is brand new information :D
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Not complete without the gif:

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TMF said:
Hard court has always been the toughest surface to win because most of the players on the tour are adept to this surface. But between grass and clay, I believe grass display higher quality tennis because a player can impose every of his arsenals on court. Grass rewards big serve, volley, touch, slices and approach shots on full display. Grass offers more all-court game makes it difficult to win, and prone for upset. Unlike clay, there's no place to play safe tennis, no endless rally, a player is pressed to end the points instead of waiting for an opponent to hit an error. Grass also rewards for great serve returner unlike clay big serve gets nullify. Basically, every shots are more effective on grass(except for topspin), and with more variety and tactics, grass has greater competition than clay. It takes more talent to win on grass than on clay.
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Rewards volleys yes, but how many players volley or better still know how to volley these days ??
 
Hitman said:
I ate this steak the other day...It was the best steak I have had in a long time
I ate this steak the other day...it was the most enjoyable steak I have had in a long time

I have said both these phrases to someone, and they got it, because the context in which those words were used was interchangeable in their mind.

This leg workout was the best workout I have done in a while
This leg workout was the most enjoyable leg workout I have done in a while

I have said both to a friend in the gym, and they got it, because they understood the context behind it.

Do not worry about me mixing them, the people I speak to get it.
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fair enough. Its upto you then.
 
Atennisone said:
Grass requires almost nothing compared to Clay. On Grass, you only need to have a good serve, then you have a chance. On clay, you have to have good speed, amazing stamina, solid forehand and backhand, and you have to fight for every rally!. On Grass, you hit a shot, 50% of it being a winner,
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Thank you. Grass is terrible.
 
Bobby Jr said:
Your headline conflicts with everything you in your post.

If a surface requires more skills, more talent, a broader range of shots, is more difficult to win on and all of the other things you say correctly about it - it reduces the proportion of players who can potentially excel on it - which is the opposite of "strength in depth."
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They will say whatever fits their argument to discredit clay....
 
Raz11 said:
Sure servebot go further on grass but surely that makes it much harder to win on grass cause of how easier it is to play better than your opponent but still lose to a servebot due to a couple of points.

Clay rewards point construction and etc so obviously better players will more likely win in the end. So if you have a great player on clay and an equally great player on grass, the player on grass will have a harder time winning cause there is a higher chance of an upset.

You said that talent levels the playing field on clay but it actually the opposite since grass levels the playing field since even the better talented player on the day can be lose and be upsetted by a lower player. So a case can be made that a player can win 10 clay slams more easily compared to 10 slams on grass.
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So basically this means clay rewards skill more than grass does. Case closed.
 
so funny seeing some rafa fans argue about how insignificant grass is and how little skill is needed when from before 2011 or so, grass was nadal's second best surface. suddenly because he declined rather rapidly on it, some try to argue how little is required except serve. y'all are too much and transparent
 
icedevil0289 said:
so funny seeing some rafa fans argue about how insignificant grass is and how little skill is needed when from before 2011 or so, grass was nadal's second best surface. suddenly because he declined rather rapidly on it, some try to argue how little is required except serve. y'all are too much and transparent
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Read thread title and you'll understand context. Whatever trolls responded to this thread are basically warranted as that's the way it works around here. Make a stupid thread, expect stupid replies.
 
Grass was and is a safe haven for servebots, where they may hope to become a one-slam wonder. During the 1990s, servebot mugs like Krajicek won Wimbledon.
 
KINGROGER said:
Clay is dominated by a Duracell bunny moon baller who can’t play on faster surfaces.
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Thats weird he has won 2 wimbys and been in 5 finals, was a break up in the 5th on roger at ao and let it slip away. won the us open last year.... Yup one surface wonder. Moonballer my ass..... His backhand and forehand are lethal and he is one of the best at net on tour.
 
ADuck said:
So basically this means clay rewards skill more than grass does. Case closed.
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The skills it takes to excel at grass is different to the skills it takes to excel at clay. Due to the slower nature of clay, it rewards clay skills more than grass rewarding grass skills.

So it is harder to dominate on grass cause it is easier to lose to a servebot on a given day. It may be easier with someone with lower skills to win an upset on grass, it takes more skills for a top grass player to dominate grass.
 
Raz11 said:
The skills it takes to excel at grass is different to the skills it takes to excel at clay. Due to the slower nature of clay, it rewards clay skills more than grass rewarding grass skills.

So it is harder to dominate on grass cause it is easier to lose to a servebot on a given day. It may be easier with someone with lower skills to win an upset on grass, it takes more skills for a top grass player to dominate grass.
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Yes. I agree, except with the way you said it takes "more skills" to dominate grass. It's more difficult to dominate grass but because it takes less skills. The more skills a surface forces a player to implement to win, the easier it is for the best player to be the most skillfull player.

So more difficult to dominate over the short term yes, not sure if more 'skillfull' is the correct term there. Another thing is yes it's easier to be the best on clay in the short-term, but year after year it's easier on grass courts to maintain your highest level possible, again because age/injury/tiredness will affect what level you play at more than grass due to clay utilizing more skills.
 
The whole tour turned to baseline last 15 years.
That includes grass courts.
Everybody is a baseliner.
Clay court has been crowded by baseliners while grass season became something top baseliners struggles and having hard time getting some meaningful experience on.
 
Hydrocella said:
@Lew what are you starting now? Please don’t tell me you have some stats to back this one up.
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The OP said hardcourt has the highest competition. Then why should we have top level tournament with inferior competition (grass, clay)?

Tennis should be played with the same rules at any level to be fair. It should be played on hardcourt as it was played only on grass in his origins, and as any other sport is played always on the same surface.
 
Grass, especially old grass, is where someone who has nothing without a big serve can hope to become a one-slam wonder. Examples: Ivanisevic, Krajicek.
 
Im(moral) Winner said:
Wimbledon (and USO) have the least one-time champions: 4.
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It is a surface only champions can afford and care about (for Wimbledon).

Outsiders on grass are servebots. Outsiders on clay are pushers. Outsiders on hardcourt are complete players.
 
Grass has a stronger field for sure.

Plus the low margins make it much more difficult to dominate on grass than clay where the the margins have become very large with poly and modern medicine letting the dirtballers last longer.

Some people argued that the record French Open was 6 and Wimbledon record was 7.

Borg won his 6th at 24 , Sampras won his 6th at 28
 
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Rafa24 said:
There is no shot making in clay? lmao. There is more shotmaking on clay than there is grass. There are more aces on grass and thats it.
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Lol.. who are these delusionalist who say no shot making on clay. See how wawrWawr won 2015 final. See average forehand speeds on clay you'll realize how much this surface facilitates shot making. See what Thiem thrives on.
 
Hitman said:
Just stating my honest opinion. RG this year exceeded my expectations, I saw many matches and most of them were fun to watch. It has to be about the tennis first for me, not about who wins it.
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I know you were dude. It's your right to like/prefer whichever tournament you see fit. I was just being sarcastic because of the way he was questioning you.
 
Clay makes up a huge part of the surfaces played on tour, whereas grass is but a tiny fraction of the calendar.

There are aspects of grass tennis that benefit modern players, namely that bashing the ball works quite well as the slipperiness of the surface makes it incredibly difficult to stay on the defensive for long.

But at the same time the tactics adopted by many if not most players these days is not suited for grass; while they can serve hard and hit hard forehands, few have good, aggressive slices, and even fewer have decent net games. So the power in modern tennis is great for grass tennis, but because most players tend to be power baseliners with poor net games, they are better suited for hards. Slow grass could work, but footwork accuracy is mandatory, and that seems to be pretty much limited to the top few players.

When you say grass has better competition, who exactly can we name as players who perform best on grass? Off the top of my head right now, Fed, Cilic, and probably Coric are at the top of their games. Then you have players like Kyrgios, Raonic, M Zverev, and Dimitrov who are either possibly injured, out of form, unpredictable, or in good form on grass by default given their mediocrity everywhere else. And finally you have players who could be or used to be a major force on the grass like Murray and Djokovic, but they are struggling to find their best form since their last injury, and are actually all-surface threats and so really do not count in grass' favour, or in any surface's favour for that matter.

On clay, you have Nadal who might as well be playing a completely different sport. Then you have the likes of Goffin, Schwartzman, Thiem, Zverev, Edmund--all of whom are either better on clay or prefer clay over the other two surfaces. After them, you have the same all- or multi-surface threats who are out injured, ie Djokovic and Murray, with the notable addition of Wawrinka who generally is a non-factor on grass.

So the real issue here should be familiar with Fed fans: if one person is so much better than everyone else, is the competition weak, or that one guy too good? Would the competition be considered stronger if the top guy weren't as good but all else remained the same? There's no debate that although both Fed and Nadal have not been as good as they were this time last year, Fed's level so far has been lower and closer to his peers on grass than Rafa's has been on clay.

The way I see it, the clay competition is a bit more rounded but one guy is a whole level above everyone else, whereas the level on grass is about the same overall but the top guys are only half a level better than everyone else.

To grass' benefit, players look better than they actually are when you can hit winners from anywhere. That doesn't mean point construction doesn't exist, but it is a lot less important than taking risks. Grass facilitates that, because even passably executed risky shots tend to put opponents in highly defensive situations, whereas clay punishes the aggressor for not executing well enough.

For a lot of amateurs like us, grass is the grown up version of the games we are familiar with or strive to be able to play ourselves, and so we can relate to it better than we can to clay tennis (unless you have played on clay yourself). The guy who hits hard first and lands it in usually wins. Clay sees the ball come back to endless frustration for those who get flashbacks of the time we lost to the local pusher, so I'm not surprised that the term "pushing" and "moonballing" gets projected around as often as it does on these boards.

Edit: wording
 
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ADuck said:
Read thread title and you'll understand context. Whatever trolls responded to this thread are basically warranted as that's the way it works around here. Make a stupid thread, expect stupid replies.
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Except Nadal fans (and some other salty specimens) are singing the same tune across a greater variety of threads (both in general and pro match results section), grass is for servebots, Fed's a servebot, grass is boring, grass is obsolete etc. etc. So yes, she makes a sailent point.

And no, Fed fans doing the same during the CC season still doesn't diminish it because she personally doesn't do it.
 
As a big Fed fan i have to say clay requires more skill.
On clay any weakness gets exposed easily.
You can’t get away with a subpar forehand nor backhand.

The thing is, clay is less competitive, with not many skilled players being around.
On grass you can hold your own if you have a decent serve.
 
Bender said:
...but don't you comment regularly that clay is for moonballers and pushers who move side to side and tap the ball in?
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KINGROGER said:
True but a lot of the time I’m counter trolling.
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Bender said:
Well okay at least I know now. I thought you were 100% serious or salty for most of it. But then again it is possible to be salty and countertroll, like our TTW heroes 90s Clay and sureshs.
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Glad to have come across this little snippet.

Good to know @KINGROGER - for people whose paths don’t regularly intersect with each other things things can get a bit confusing in here.

@Bender is also astute to point it out. When deep trolling be sure to always carefully monitor your salt levels lest you end up in a terminal condition.
 
Hydrocella said:
Glad to have come across this little snippet.

Good to know @KINGROGER - for people whose paths don’t regularly intersect with each other things things can get a bit confusing in here.

@Bender is also astute to point it out. When deep trolling be sure to always carefully monitor your salt levels lest you end up in a terminal condition.
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Case in point--it has been raining almost nonstop in Hong Kong, so I have been increasing my salinity to counter the extra water that has been diluting my poasts.
 
Atennisone said:
Also funny to see how Fed fans won't admit Clay is tougher, just because Fed is worst on Clay
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i think they both require different skills and I'll leave it at that. there is a reason once upon a time that those who specialized on one did not do well on the other considering how vastly different they were. Also it would be one thing if some rafa fans just left it to they think clay is tougher but they are also saying how little is required except serve or that serve gives you a 90% advantage which is bs and tells me like a lot of rafa fans that they don't understand tennis or barely see matches outside of their fav which hey is fine, not going to knock what y'all watch or don't watch but then don't make dumb nonsensical posts
 
ATPtennisFan said:
Grass has a stronger field for sure.

Plus the low margins make it much more difficult to dominate on grass than clay where the the margins have become very large with poly and modern medicine letting the dirtballers last longer.

Some people argued that the record French Open was 6 and Wimbledon record was 7.

Borg won his 6th at 24 , Sampras won his 6th at 28
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multiple times winners in the Open era:

Wimbledon 12
French Open 8
 
Lew said:
The OP said hardcourt has the highest competition. Then why should we have top level tournament with inferior competition (grass, clay)?

Tennis should be played with the same rules at any level to be fair. It should be played on hardcourt as it was played only on grass in his origins, and as any other sport is played always on the same surface.
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Ah okay. I’d misunderstood. I thought you meant all sports were mainly played on hard surfaces and it worried me because my little bubble of reality was being threatened.

Tennis. Yep, agree.

As much as I absolutely hate hard courts, absolutely absolutely absolutely hate hard courts they are the cheapest to build and easiest to maintain so yep, while it is unfortunate, hard courts are also the fairest surface.

Personally I am very glad for you Europeans.

Without you guys we wouldn’t have clay. Look at the town I am currently in here in Croatia:

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LOL

One teeny tiny little hard court in dozens of clay courts that nobody ever wants to use.

Here’s another interesting thought for the next time you want to stir up FedFans:

Isn’t it curious that two Croatians that grew up in all these clay courts just won the grass events yesterday?

Isn’t it curious that the ATG Serbian Djoke who grew up on clay won several Wimbledon’s?

Isn’t it curious that the ATG Spaniard Nadal who grew up on clay won several Wimbledon’s?

And isn’t it curious that the ATG, goat or whatever, the winningiest grass player of all time, Fed, also grew up on clay?

So maybe it’s something for those Americans to think about. As they denounce clay more and more they simply end up getting worse and worse at tennis overall?

Sure hard courts are popular in some parts of the world.

But thank god for clay.
 
Bender said:
Case in point--it has been raining almost nonstop in Hong Kong, so I have been increasing my salinity to counter the extra water that has been diluting my poasts.
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LOL.

Here’s one.

The reason it’s been raining in Hong Kong in here is because it’s raining in Croatia.

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6DCC5CEF-1FB0-4095-AF35-531C6CCDFF0D.png
 
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