Great article on fasting.....

Discussion in 'Health & Fitness' started by Mac33, Apr 20, 2017.

  1. Mac33

    Mac33 Professional

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    I'm up to my peak weight again,72kg in the morning,so I feel I need to approach the problem in a different way to achieve a 3 kg drop. I was 69kg this time last year.

    So for the next month going to try this 5 and 2 plan.

    Two days per week going to limit my calorie consumption to around 600.

    Estimate that's 4000 less calories per week,divide that by seven days and it comes out to around 550.-600 less calories per day.



    https://www.sott.net/article/348653...erfect-treatment-for-diabetes-and-weight-loss
     
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  2. Surion

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    Or you just eat 500 calories less every day.
    I'm not a friend of this type of fasting, because you'll confuse your body.

    If you only wanna lose a few pounds, please limit your deficit to 250 cals, 500 is too much in that case.
     
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  3. r2473

    r2473 G.O.A.T.

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    What happens when your body gets confused? Something bad I assume.
     
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  4. Surion

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    Depends, but it's certainly not helpful if you wanna consistently lose weight or get healthy, because your body is programmed to adapt and it doesn't know what to adapt to.
     
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  5. Mac33

    Mac33 Professional

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    Today was going to try and survive on 600 calorie - I failed I think.

    Three cups of honey tea,2 small bananas,tin of butter beans with a packet of veggie curry, two bowls of homemade veggie soup,20 raw almonds. Guessing that's a bit more but not too bad. Litre of water.
     
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  6. r2473

    r2473 G.O.A.T.

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    I thought Intermittent Fasting was helpful for weight loss. Which is what the OP is trying to do.
    When I've lost weight, that has never worked for me. The premise seems wrong. It assumes your body is a simple and fixed in/out machine. Such that reducing "in" will necessarily result in a deficit that will require your body to burn stored fuel. In my experience your body adapts to the deficit, not by burning stored fuel, but in other ways. Actually, it's just not all that predictable from person to person just how your body will react. Some lose weight easier than others. Some put on weight easier than others.

    If dieting was easy or able to be done with some sort of mathematical certainty, I suspect most if not all people would be successful. In reality, few are even superficially (short term) successful and still fewer are long term successful.

    Best idea is to not get fat in the first place. But once the genie is out of the bottle, it's not easy to get the toothpaste back in the tube (I love to mix my metaphors).
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017
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  7. Connors Fan

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    I have tried the 5/2. It works as advertised, but over the long haul, it was not ideal for me. I lost too much concentration at work on the fast days, and ultimately stopped.

    Most high protein low carbs will get you there just the same...........................................with a bit of chocolate. smile.
     
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  8. Surion

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    There are several forms of IF and the most popular (and in my opinion best suited one to be used a lifetime) is the 16/8 split.
    That way it's consistent every single day.

    And sorry, but the rest you wrote is flat out wrong.
    Your body will adapt to the lower intake IF your deficit is too big (that's why I said only 250 if you aren't rocking like 400 pounds), because then your body will just burn more and you'll lose weight.
    If your deficit is like 1000 cals over a long period of time, then your body is confused again and thinks "****, famine, I need to lower my energy" and thus it'll burn less energy.

    The reason why so many people are fat is simple.

    They either still eat lots of garbage or don't do enough sports, simple as that.
    Or what I also witness a lot "I've ran for 30 minutes, so I earned this chocolate bar".
    That's the mistake. People just don't know that 30 minutes of running burns ~300 cals, that's not much.
    A litre of a typical soft drink has like 450.
     
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  9. r2473

    r2473 G.O.A.T.

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    I don't believe it is as simple as you say. "Silver bullet logic" is incomplete (or just incorrect) much of the time.
     
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  10. Surion

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    That's why EVERY study, expert, article and so on proclaims this.

    Sorry, it IS that simple.
     
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  11. ChaelAZ

    ChaelAZ Semi-Pro

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    Well, no. Not for most people, and unless you are an extermely low calorie intake over months will some systemic conditions start to apply through adaptive thermogenesis. It isn't going to happen at a pronounced level even with a week of low calories, and no matter what you will ALWAYS lose weight if you are taking in less than your body burns. It is simple CICO.

    People are overweight because they eat too much and exercise too little, without a clue about their TDEE and how many calories they should be eating (really, how little the body needs to maintain and operate).
     
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  12. nytennisaddict

    nytennisaddict Legend

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    timely article... i've been dieting for 2 weeks (isagenix).
    completed 2 fasting days (each Monday, ~36h each).
    down 8lbs....
    granted i weighed myself immediately after Easter lunch/dinner gorging, then again post purge after my 2nd fasting day :p
     
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  13. robok9

    robok9 Semi-Pro

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    I would recommend looking into 16/8 lean gains intermittent fasting. Honestly, it was the gateway into me changing my entire eating habits. For reference the stuff I say is from someone who did it for 4 months straight every day, stopped it for 4 months when I went onto a lean bulk, and now that I'm on a mini cut, I'm currently doing it again.

    The thing you need to understand about any kind of intermittent fasting though is that, despite what some advocates will say, it doesn't possess any magic properties. You hear people vouch for stuff like better insulin sensitivity, depleting glycogen to burn more fat, etc, however those are very minimal benefits and don't really amount to much. Just as equally though, the people that have not done the research will say "Fasting! That's not healthy!" but for males as long as it's controlled it has no negative health effects unless you are already diabetic.

    That being said, the reason I still use it is because it makes things easier to consume less calories if that is your goal. I'm not exaggerating when I say that once you become adjusted, most of the time you don't get hungry until around when your usual eating window would start. The exact way that I use it when going low calorie is I stop eating about 7PM, I eat again at about 1PM (so really I do more of a 18/6 fasting/eating window) the next day, and that meal is usually centered around setting up to hit my macros for the day (high protein with some carbs and little to no fat), then maybe have a tiny snack before 6 or 7PM where I eat basically a normal meal focused around getting some more protein, good amount of carbs, and relatively low fat. During that fasting window, black coffee or any kind of carbonated or caffeinated beverage curbs the hunger.

    It has done so much for me in terms of reprogramming my brain on how to eat. At this point, I'm shooting for a lot more so IF makes up only a small portion of what I do, but it's a great first step. I have a friend that struggles with pretty severe weight issues, and he saw me doing it and wanted to try it, and honestly it's helped him a lot so far, and he actually likes it from a practicality and ease standpoint.

    So to summarize, it's not magic. Losing the weight will still take time, but I am a big advocate for intermittent fasting if you're willing to pair it with a healthy diet and do it the right way.
     
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  14. nytennisaddict

    nytennisaddict Legend

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    pretty much all ketogenic (atkins, paleo, etc...) diets suggest fasting for 24-48hr to "jump start" your body to get into ketosis (fat burning mode).

    but generally you're right.
    3500 calories == 1lb
    presuming a 2000 calories for general normal activity (not including exercise)...
    then the path to losing 1lb a week is to reduce caloric consumption by 500 calories per day.
    obviously you can supplement this with exercise...
    but keep in mind that running 1M is only 100 calories (ie. so it's impossible to outrun a bad diet :p)
     
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  15. nytennisaddict

    nytennisaddict Legend

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    nice job.
    just finished my 2nd fast (in two weeks)... easily sub 500 cals.
    will be doing this again next Monday.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2017
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  16. shindemac

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    I haven't weighed myself daily and I haven't done anything physical for over the last year due to injury. My weight is still near my "maintenance weight" of 136.
     
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  17. robok9

    robok9 Semi-Pro

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    From what I've read and experienced personally, getting into a "fat burning" phase is more of a concept that applies in theory but not actuality. It's pretty much calories in calories out for the number on the scale to go down. If you want to lose fat, from what I've read and seen, there's kind of a hierarchy of what's important. Calories -> macronutrients -> resistance training -> the sun and moon aligning -> meal timing. Then there's the all encompassing factor of genetics... Unfortunately, I did not get too lucky in that department but oh well.
     
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  18. nytennisaddict

    nytennisaddict Legend

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    the important stuff:
    • need to get caloriesIN to be less than caloriesOUT
      • reduce calories by less eating
      • increase calories out by more exercise (eg. cardio), by increasing metabolism (ie. heart rate)
      • just having more muscles burns more calories at rest (muscles are hungry! muscles become giant glycogen stores)
      • 3500 cals = 1lb
      • 2000 cals consumed is most folks
    • you need quality calories... because if you eat junk food your body will still "hunger" for macro nutrients (which leads to binging, overeating, etc...)
      • (this is why you usually can't just "stop eating" and rely on will power)
      • also why you can eat 3 five guy burgers, and large fries, and still be hungry
    • you fast to get into a ketogenic state (aka ketosis - burning fat state (ie. glycogen/sugar absorption stops)), and that usually takes ~18h
      • you can maintain a mild ketogenic state by eating more protein than carbs (reduce glycogen absorption)
    • exercise to compliment a good diet (exercise will never "make up for" a bad diet)
      • increase calories out by more exercise (eg. cardio), by increasing metabolism (ie. heart rate)
      • just having more muscles burns more calories at rest (muscles are hungry! muscles become giant glycogen stores)
    i think meal timing makes a small difference... ie. eating right after a workout preps your muscle to absorb glycogen (prevents it from turning to fat)
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2017
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  19. robok9

    robok9 Semi-Pro

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    One interesting thing I found out recently was the "having more muscle burns more calories" is not as much of a difference as you would think. Apparently, 1 pound of extra muscle burns an average of an extra 9 calories daily, so if you put on 20 pounds of muscle which is an insanely high amount that would take years of training only burns less than 200 extra calories daily. Not actually arguing any of your points. Just an interesting little tidbit of information that I figured I'd share.
     
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  20. Surion

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    True, but let's say you put on 5 lbs of muscle, which is doable in a year with a normal routine and proper nutrition, you'll burn about 40-50 cals more per day, which translates into 300-350 more per week and so on.

    Don't underestimate that.

    But I get your point, most people dramatically overestimate it.
     
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  21. nytennisaddict

    nytennisaddict Legend

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    when i tell most folks that they should only expect to lose at most 1-2lbs per week, most folks response is, "that's it?"
    but then i remind that the other side of the equation is that body is incredible good at only gaining 1-2lbs a week, no matter how much you gorge....
    so drop 20lbs+ is something you (I) have done to yourself over the few years...
    so don't expect to undo all of it in a couple weeks.

    so i agree with you, the point is, the small stuff matters, so "only" a few extra calories will make a difference (in either direction) over a long period of time (weeks, years, etc...).
     
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  22. Phantasm

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    Quality information. You will be losing weight as long your body is in a caloric deficit fasting or not. I used the 16/8 intermittent fasting schedule along with counting calories as a guideline to not munch throughout the day or at night.

    Unfortunately you can't burn only fat during weight loss, you'll be losing lean muscle mass as well. Just like when gaining weight, you can't gain 100% muscle. If you have excess fat stores, you definitely can gain some muscle while burning fat too in the earlier stages of weight loss.

    I feel like the ketosis fad is because it takes more energy for the body to burn fat into glucose than carbs into energy(glycosis). Also fat and proteins are more satiating that carbohydrates so people adopt a ketogenic diet so they don't go hungry during a cut. Also lets you eat as much bacon as you want as long as you're in a caloric deficit.

    It's also impossible to perfectly quantify how much calories burned in a day even if you wear a HRM 24/7 which is why weight loss is not a linear process but the science is there to back up that 3500 excess cals burned will burn 1lb of fat, so as long as you're constantly in a caloric deficit you should be steadily losing weight.

    Counting calories works but it is still just a guideline that people use to follow to stay consistent or to follow a plan for the long run since you can't perfectly measure what you eat or what you burn. It worked for me though.

    Meal Timing is the last thing to worry about. That's over optimization of fat burning/muscle gain that the average individual shouldn't worry about in my experience.
     
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  23. Soul

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    I do some fasting anymore. It's different from what is mentioned in the article, but I all but stopped eating dinner or snacks after lunch. I typically have not been hungry after lunch. It was more out of habit that I ate dinner or had a snack.

    I've lost some weight since I stopped eating snacks early this year. I've dropped around 10 to 15lbs. (I haven't eaten dinner in many years. Even as a young kid I never ate dinner all that much for what ever reason.)

    I also began some light therapy ideas. The light therapy ideas are thought to help with weight loss also by boosting hormone levels. It is hard for me to say what contributed the most of my drop in weight.
     
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  24. comeback

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    There are lots of ways to lose weight; counting calories, timing , food type, exercise etc... i've been at this longer than most of you and the one thing that's not mentioned here is trying to keep your internal stomach the same size (about the size of a fist) after you get to proper weight..It has been proven that the stomach can be stretched out to enormous proportions by overeating..yo yo eating and gorging at times (even once a week) throws your stomach way out of wack..Would you snort cocaine or shoot heroin once a week? Probably not..So why gorge yourself or have cheat days??

    One way to tell is that you get sick after overeating..you can eat mostly anything healthy within reason but eat slow for taste, not volume.... finish chewing before you shove another mindless gob of food in your mouth...There is also a diaphragm breathing exercise i utilize that helps after eating plus i never drink liquids with meals, it really works for me
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2017
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  25. kiteboard

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    Stop eating as much and keep playing. Now why don't I do that? 230lbs, but was at 240 a few months ago, and as low as 225 a week ago, but began eating too much again.
     
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  26. PMChambers

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    16/8 is very easy to do with mild weight loss. Just drop a meal a day and make meals low carb and sugar.
    16/8 + 24/0 is harder but very doable.
    Day 1 Lunch & Dinner
    Day 2 Dinner
    REPEAT
    Can lose 1-2kg in week.

    Personally I find it easy to not eat for 24hrs than having a small meal. Fasting 48hrs is also not hard if busy. Day 3 fast is harder than 4 or 5 so if you really want to fast long period don't stop after day 3, keep going for 5-7 days and make it worth while. Should lose about 1-2kg a day after day 2.
    BTW you start to smell after 2-3 days of a fast.
    Body builders will train through a fast but better to do HITT rather than long cardio. Energy levels are not as high.

    Dr Jason Fung has quiet a bit of info online. Body builders, weight lifters, fighters {MMAL and boxing}, weight restricted sports all use fasting. Some long fasting over days others just dehydration to cut weight which is very short term and dangerous also has no real fat loss.
     
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  27. nytennisaddict

    nytennisaddict Legend

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    been reading alot about the fasting and intermittent fasting, and like the idea behind it.
    just completed my third day fasting (full 36h) in 3 weeks. down 9lbs overall.
    surprisingly i felt very energetic at the end of my fasting day (good enough to spend an hour of hard hitting at like 10p).
    once i get to my goal weight (low 150's - i want to compete in bjj in the lightweight div), i'm going to experiment with intermittent fasting (16/8 vs. 24/0)
    fasting makes me feel much less bloated, more energetic, and more focus (energy and focus part are opposite of how i thought i'd feel)
     
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  28. kiteboard

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    Two weeks ago I was 240. NOw I'm 221 today. Want to lose another 21 lbs in a month so I can play cat. II berkeley. Brutal day, at 84 degrees, dual main change and two hrs. of serve/returning. Using the uni grip to hit swinging volleys. Hard to learn. Lost most points today doing it. Smart goal: Specific, measurable, achievable, relevant, time table.: 21 lbs in a month, so no carbs, no lunch, only dinner at home.
     
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  29. Surion

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    Losing 1-2 kg a week or even a day is just NOT recommendable, unless you weigh like 500 pounds.

    Do it slowly, but steadily and the success will last.
    Just stopping to eat for days or limiting your cals to 500 or whatever is dangerous.
     
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  30. PMChambers

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    Rubbish.
    1. The average male american is 23% body fat. The only danger of fast fat burning is if your body fat level are very low such as athletes, exhibitionists, etc on 3-5%.
    2. There are many benefits of fasting, can you name one negative not associated with a medical disorder.

    There are times when fasting is problematic such as intense training, but normal day to day activities it's fine. Fasting on a tennis competition day is not wise but practising is fine.

    You seem confused here, when your body runs out of free available energy from your recent food digestion it starts to burn stored fats. The body doesn't get confused because it does not have any available sugars to convert to energy, the body will use the most readily available energy usually sugars or carbohydrates but start burning stored energy in the form of fat lose. All cultures have been fasting for thousands of years either due to limit resources, technology or religious reasons.

    Moderate exercise does not burn up enough energy to be a factor in body weight. Exercise is about fitness, body weight is about health.

    Fasting needs to be used in conjunction with a healthy diet and exercise. Most people lifestyles are better suited to fasting than calorie counting.
     
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  31. Surion

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    Sorry, but apparently you don't know what you are talking about. Please stop pretending.

    For example, if you don't eat, your body will start abandoning muscle mass first, or at least a great amount and not simple burn fat. That's just not true.

    And moderate exercising is a HUGE factor in losing weight as long as your "diet" is fine.


    Oh and it has been proven (if something can be proven in this field) over and over again that it's dangerous or at least not healthy to lose too much weight in a short amount of time.

    As I said, if you weigh 400 pounds and your BF is at 40 %, okay, losing more than 1 lb per week is no problem, but that's it.
     
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  32. PMChambers

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    If you can't respond to the question don't post. Bit childish, sorry.
     
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  33. Surion

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    I responded to the crap you posted in a nice way.
    Please learn to read.

    And you didn't even ask a question brainiac.
     
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  34. PMChambers

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    You need to stop quoting crap.
    This is simply wrong, muscle is the last thing the body will "burn" up. Destroying muscle is permanent. Boxers, weight lifters, power lifters, body builders, MMA fighters all use fasting to cut for events. They do not lose muscle, if they cut to extreme amounts they can lose conditioning but thats extremely short term. There are an enormous amount of articals and control tests indicating this is a myth. https://www.google.com.au/search?q=...j69i57j0l4.10744j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
    Where's your evidence to the contrary. What you state is false, unless you take fasting to the extreme.

    Very misleading, it's the diet that loses the weight not moderate exercise. The calories used during "normal" exercise is minimal. I did 5 second search, https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2010/sep/19/exercise-dieting-public-health
    Nearly every medical and dietary practitioner will state this, even gyms state you need balance diet with exercise to lose weight which is misleading as you can lose weight without exercise, but a poor diet with lots of exercise does not lose weight. Exercise can in many cases cause increase fat gain as it drives hunger. There are a lot of papers on this.

    No it hasn't. Where is this evidence? What has been shown is using restrictive calorie controlled diets that require life time servitude don't work and can result in increase weight gain.

    Sorry, but your wrong. The majority of the first world follows calorie control eating plan diets and moderate exercise and it fails because it is not maintainable for the majority of people over long periods.

    I responded to your crap, don't write more your on the wrong Forum Post.
     
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  35. Surion

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    Mind-boggling how wrong you are. I won't invest any more time into your crap.
     
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  36. nytennisaddict

    nytennisaddict Legend

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    have you even read anything about dieting, weightloss, etc,...?
    you're just regurgitating what my neighbor says about weightloss,...
    and she is 50lbs overweight,... meanwhile, i've made the transition from 210->155
     
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  37. nytennisaddict

    nytennisaddict Legend

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    exercise helps weight loss, but is NOT a huge factor in losing weight.
    it takes way more effort to burn 100 calories than it does, preventing yourself from stuffing your face with another sleeve of oreos.

    you're making general claims about weight loss, but aren't citing the specific scenarios of how/where it's dangerous:
    *going without food for a week is not a good way to lose weight;...
    *going into a 500 caloric deficit daily through food moderation and/or exercise, with thrown in with a system of fasting (eg. 1d or intermittent) is perfectly healthy.
     
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  38. nytennisaddict

    nytennisaddict Legend

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    whew, then the rest of us can focus on what @PMChambers has to say!

    i do agree, based on what i've read, and personal experience that dropping weight will result in some muscle loss, but not to the degree that @Surion is suggesting.
     
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  39. Surion

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    Wtf?

    Running for an hour burns 500-600 cals, depending on speed, intervals and so on.

    Just walking for 30 mins burns about 100 cals.

    People are so ****ing lazy, it's alarming.
     
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  40. Surion

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    It depends on what type of fasting we discuss.
    But if you don't give your body energy, it will abandon muscle mass, because our body is smart and muscle mass burns a bit more cals than fat, so the body will abandon that first.
    Again, if you do 16/8 IF and eat properly, you're doing fine.

    PMChamber or whatever he's called doesn't know ****.

    Exercising is a huge factor, period.
    Just because people are lazy and sit on their couch the whole day doesn't mean, moving around isn't important.

    How about eating healthy and working out at the same time?

    You'll be astonished about the effect!
     
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  41. nytennisaddict

    nytennisaddict Legend

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    moving 1 mile is ~100 calories.. so if you can run 6 miles in an hour... yeah 600cals burnt
    if it takes you 30 min to walk 1 mile... 100 cals.
    but it's MUCH easier to only eat 1500 cals (vs. 2000) a day in health food, that it is to actually exercise. the exericse is a bonus.
    problems is that some folks that just burned 600 cals from running will eat an pizza pie and think "they are even"
     
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  42. nytennisaddict

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    you're over emphasizing exercising, and just mentioning "eating right" as a footnote.
    most people have an issue with "eating right"... it's easy to get someone to workout for say 20m
    most people don't bother exercising because they haven't fixed their diet, so they think exercising is a waste.
     
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  43. Surion

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    Seriously? You don't measure burnt energy in distances. Stuff like this makes me believe most of you guys don't know what you are talking about or still believe most of the debunked ******** people believed 50 years ago.

    And yes, people are lazy AND stupid and many will think "Ran an hour? I'm allowed to eat the chocolate now".
    But that's their own fault and no reason to discredit exercising.
     
    #43
  44. Surion

    Surion Hall of Fame

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    Again, I thought we're talking about a healthy way of life here.
    So I'm assuming we are talking about fasting with healthy food.

    Otherwise it's a total waste of time and effort to fast at all.
     
    #44
  45. r2473

    r2473 G.O.A.T.

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    Your body is a closed, perfectly static system. Therefore, all of this can be figured out perfectly mathematically. Therefore, if I drink an extra soda, I'm mathematically guaranteed to gain fat equivalent to 150 calories. Don't drink the soda, I'll lose exactly 150 calories worth of fat.

    If I do 200 calories worth of exercising, I lose 200 calories worth of fat (or maybe muscle, I'm getting confused).
     
    #45
  46. Surion

    Surion Hall of Fame

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    If you drink the soda worth 150 cals you won't gain fat worth 150 cals (~16 g).
    Every body is different, will respond slightly differently to exercising and so on.
    Your workout regime, the rest of your daily calories and so on will determine what exactly happens with those 150 cals.
     
    #46
  47. r2473

    r2473 G.O.A.T.

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    Ever had this theory tested?

    I have bod pod tests when I went from 270 to 210. LBM went from 180 to 175. Part of my diet strategy was intermittent fasting.

    The woman in the next office to mine, her 55 year old husband just took second in a local bodybuilding competition. He uses IF as part of his diet (and he gets down to competition level bodyfat). He's natural too (believe it or not)
     
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  48. Surion

    Surion Hall of Fame

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    It's not a theory, it's science.

    But as I said, it doesn't contradict IF.
     
    #48
  49. Phantasm

    Phantasm Rookie

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    Congrats on your loss! 55lbs is a lot to lose!

    It does take less than 3500 calories to burn 1lb of muscle. I forget what the number is or if there was as specific number on the # of calories needed to burn 1lb of muscle.

    The reason why people recommend exercising/weightlifting and eating adequate amounts of protein during weight loss is to minimize the loss of lean mass/muscle by stimulating your muscles and using them as wellconsume enough protein to support that muscle mass. Protein is made up of amino acids. Amino acids are the building blocks of your muscles and body. Without them, it would be impossible to build, repair or even maintain muscle tissue. Also, walking/running/cardiovascular exercise promotes good heart health.

    It's impossible to lose only fat and no muscle. Just like how when you're bulking, it's impossible to gain all muscle and zero fat.

    Now if you have a lot of excess weight to shed, it is possible to gain muscle while losing weight/burning fat but that's only in the earlier stages of weight loss...
     
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    #49
  50. TimeToPlaySets

    TimeToPlaySets Hall of Fame

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    Sounds like a stupid gimmick.
    Eat properly and do some fitness, and you'll be fine.
    Reduce carbs and sugar is all that 99% of people need to do.
     
    #50

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