Great error in two handed backhand !!!

[Gregory Diamond]

Lately I changed my two handed backhand. Earlier when I took the racket back in the first phase the head of the racket was at the level of my head. At least at the level of shoulder. Over 20 years ago I injured my right wrist and was forced to play two handed forehand. During last 3 years I tried to copy 2HF of Peng Shuai. You can find my thread about it. But watching Peng Shuai I also noticed her excellent two handed backhand. She begins the stroke with the head of the racket very low. I tried this but it worked only on some surfaces.

3 weeks ago I tested new backhand with the head of the racket only a little higher than the handle when I take the racket back. It was a great revolution. I didn’t even expected that it would work. Everything improved. Much greater spin and much faster balls than before. What was completely unexpected there was greater control. Much greater.

I usually record my games and when I analyzed this new backhand I found the reason why this change worked so well. When we take the racket back with the head of the racket high, during the stoke it has tendency to go across our body. But when the head is a little lower (still higher than the handle) it goes inside out. From the moment when the ball touches the strings for a long time the head of the racket push the ball in the right direction. It goes across our body long after the stroke.

I am not a great player but I am a physicist so maybe my post will help somebody.

 

[ByeByePoly]

No ... again ... entitled to your own opinions but not your own video (or physics).

The drop is for timing. You can do a high Zverev, Coco ... a medium Djokovic, Nadal, a low Venus, Radwanska ... or even directly to slot Rios. There was another ATP pro at the French that went directly to slot ... I will try and remember who ... they are rare these days.

All that matters is 1) your position at the slot (that point in the backswing you start your shoulder turn uncoiling), AND 2) what you from the slot. Your stance, unit turn, your arm and hand positions, arm spacing from body, hands set close to swing inside out (or something more Simon where he keeps hands away from body more than most).

The back of the slot is where the $ is made, the drop is just foreplay. The additional factor when it comes to topspin, how much more do you let the racquet head drop right after the hands start forward from the slot. Go watch Venus Williams slo mo 2hbh video, or even Radwaska. It looks like they go straight to slot with rh max down on backswing (without a drop). But watch enough of their BHs and you will see even more rh drop below the hands right after hands start forward. The only one I have seen that gets to max rh drop on backswing is Rios.

Everything before the following is foreplay ... all pros start to look very similar here, but all kinds of variations getting to there:

SLOT:

Rios ... dude was smooth as silk with ZERO racquet drop ... can be done ... probably not a good choice for rec players (drop gives up some margin of error in timing our forward swing IMO)

Hard to find good video of Rios. He goes straight down without drop (pic #2), finishes back swing ... now at back of slot (pic #3), swing to contact from slot.

Edit:

"Earlier when I took the racket back in the first phase the head of the racket was at the level of my head."

IMO ... the part that matters is the height of the hands more than the angle of the racquet or height of the racquet head. I prefer a medium height hand position like Djokovic, but my racquet head goes up like Zverev. It doesn't matter ... that is what makes the 2hbh fun ... lots of variation work ... put your own signature on it.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

No ... again ... entitled to your own opinions but not your own video (or physics).

The drop is for timing. You can do a high Zverev, Coco ... a medium Djokovic, Nadal, a low Venus, Radwanska ... or even directly to slot Rios. There was another ATP pro at the French that went directly to slot ... I will try and remember who ... they are rare these days.

All that matters is 1) your position at the slot (that point in the backswing you start your shoulder turn uncoiling), AND 2) what you from the slot. Your stance, unit turn, your arm and hand positions, arm spacing from body, hands set close to swing inside out (or something more Simon where he keeps hands away from body more than most).

The back of the slot is where the $ is made, the drop is just foreplay. The additional factor when it comes to topspin, how much more do you let the racquet head drop right after the hands start forward from the slot. Go watch Venus Williams slo mo 2hbh video, or even Radwaska. It looks like they go straight to slot with rh max down on backswing (without a drop). But watch enough of their BHs and you will see even more rh drop below the hands right after hands start forward. The only one I have seen that gets to max rh drop on backswing is Rios.

Everything before the following is foreplay ... all pros start to look very similar here, but all kinds of variations getting to there:

SLOT:

Rios ... dude was smooth as silk with ZERO racquet drop ... can be done ... probably not a good choice for rec players (drop gives up some margin of error in timing our forward swing IMO)

Hard to find good video of Rios. He goes straight down without drop (pic #2), finishes back swing ... now at back of slot (pic #3), swing to contact from slot.

Edit:

"Earlier when I took the racket back in the first phase the head of the racket was at the level of my head."

IMO ... the part that matters is the height of the hands more than the angle of the racquet or height of the racquet head. I prefer a medium height hand position like Djokovic, but my racquet head goes up like Zverev. It doesn't matter ... that is what makes the 2hbh fun ... lots of variation work ... put your own signature on it.

Static description is not enough. The same position of the racket before the stroke doesn’t mean that the movement of the racket will be the same in the next phase. When the head is high at the beginning the racket has vertical momentum. It forces the racket to go across the body from left to right. We can counteract this using our muscles but it is a great loss of energy. The harder you want to hit the ball the more energy you lose for this activity. If the head of the racket is only slightly higher than the handle when you take it back, then at the beginning of the stroke it naturally goes inside out and when the ball touches the strings the head of the racket doesn’t try to go across your body. It goes precisely forward. All your energy is used to accelerate the ball. I am not a strong person. My right wrist is injured. It caused problems when my opponents hit the balls really hard. After this change this problem almost vanished. I am not strong, but all my strength is transferred to the ball. I think it's worth a try.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Static description is not enough. The same position of the racket before the stroke doesn’t mean that the movement of the racket will be the same in the next phase. When the head is high at the beginning the racket has vertical momentum. It forces the racket to go across the body from left to right. We can counteract this using our muscles but it is a great loss of energy. The harder you want to hit the ball the more energy you lose for this activity. If the head of the racket is only slightly higher than the handle when you take it back, then at the beginning of the stroke it naturally goes inside out and when the ball touches the strings the head of the racket doesn’t try to go across your body. It goes precisely forward. All your energy is used to accelerate the ball. I am not a strong person. My right wrist is injured. It caused problems when my opponents hit the balls really hard. After this change this problem almost vanished. I am not strong, but all my strength is transferred to the ball. I think it's worth a try.

fyi ... that reversed 2HFH grip ... how the heck did you get that down. Great job to pull it off, that would not be easy. I assume it's your right hand that was injured.

"Static description is not enough."

It is from the slot. When the shoulder turn uncoiling starts, your hands swing on your intended swing plane to contact regardless of gravity drop or not. That is where spin comes from ... the low to high swing path of the hands from the slot to contact plus the amount of racquet head drop below the hands. An easier way to say that is "it's the path of the racquet head in the forward swing. No doubt a closed racquet face also can add to spin, but for my purposes I am not interested because my goal is vertical racquet face at contact (probably fail more open than I would like).

I just noticed something watching your FH @01:40, stepping through the video a frame at a time. I would be glad to grab snapshots if you want me to, but I always ask first now. My guess is you are doing something you don't realize, and it will make my point it's really all about that moment right when your shoulders start turning forward. Everything else was just prep getting to that critical moment. You kind of do a Borg ... also Simon does this but with a very big pendulum. You start with racquet facing out about belly button level, racquet parallel with the ground. While you are moving on the way to getting on that front foot your arms and racquet pendulum down and then go behind you. You hands come up higher than that lowest point in the pendulum (in the your case, at least @01:40 ... just a little higher than the lowest point). If you watch Borg or Simon, they can pendulum the hands up to a very similar pre-drop position just like a Djokovic. That's what I mean, there are a lot of ways to get to that "shoulder turn uncoiling/firing position ... just get there". But now you do your weight transfer just like any closed 2h stroke, you land the front leg (left in your case here) followed by the uncoiling of shoulders, torso around front/left hip.

So I guess what you were saying in your original post is you were penduluming (not a word ) back into a backswing where your racquet head was higher near your head. Now, at 01:41, you never even get to pocket level with the hands, and your racquet head is way below your hands (that is where your ts is coming from). Most 2h strokes will get to a similar position that you are at the slot. You used a pendulum motion to get your hands and racquet set at the back of the slot, and then you pull the trigger. Most 2hbh would take the backswing higher across body in the unit turn to whatever pre-drop position they use, and then drop to a similar spot you (and Borg ... how cool is it to be like Borg ) got to with pendulum. Doesn't matter... the dance starts at that uncoiling.

 

[ByeByePoly]

With your injured right hand, did you ever try the normal grip with a way left arm dominant 2hfh (the equivalent of hitting close to a left arm 1hbh).

 

[Gregory Diamond]

With your injured right hand, did you ever try the normal grip with a way left arm dominant 2hfh (the equivalent of hitting close to a left arm 1hbh).

I`ll anwer later because now I have a lot of work to do. You can use my video to whatever purpose you want.

 

[ByeByePoly]

The camera angle prevented good snapshots on the 2hbh from the close side of the court.

So what I'm calling the slot in your strokes is your position right before your shoulder/body starts uncoiling into the shot. It's pic #5 fh, and pic #4 bh.

You can look at the fh pics and see what I meant by you start higher, pendulum down and then up a little to back to back swing (pic #5). My point is everything before fh pic #5 was just prep getting to pic #5, the shot will happen from there no matter how you got there.

Consider the Djokovic 2hbh sequence.

He does the more common unit turn, racquet across torso, and then drop to his slot. You pendulum your fh down below your slot, and then a little up to it.

You both got there in different paths, but from there all that matters is the swing you will take from there to contact.

 

[TennisCJC]

Glad your 2hbh is improving and it sounds like you are getting more extension through contact resulting in a better shot.

But, I don't think a high take back results in less extension through contact. Most likely, it was something unique to you as many players with a high take back get good extension. Personally, I like the medium to high take back on 2hbh and don't like the low take back.

 

[ChaelAZ]

Wait, how come there is only 1H'd forehands? Inferior video, in my opinion.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Glad your 2hbh is improving and it sounds like you are getting more extension through contact resulting in a better shot.

But, I don't think a high take back results in less extension through contact. Most likely, it was something unique to you as many players with a high take back get good extension. Personally, I like the medium to high take back on 2hbh and don't like the low take back.

I really haven't nailed down a definition of extension. I tried to understand it when @Shroud was getting fh help from Yandell. There it was described as a hand position around eye level after contact (something like that).

On the 2hbh, what do we mean by extension? Can a bent/bent 2hbh hit and equal extension to the bent/straight 2hbh?

I hit a bent/straight 2hbh, and sometimes I will do drills where I consciously exaggerate reaching forward (like toward ball machine) with fully extended left arm after contact. It seems to produce solid shots, but you wonder if it just tricks you into watching the ball better. I have wondered during those drills how a bent/bent 2hbh could have extension.

Does Venus have extension on her chicken wing 2hbh? If not, does extension matter ... she won majors.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Wait, how come there is only 1H'd forehands? Inferior video, in my opinion.

Stirring up trouble again?

 

[ChaelAZ]

Stirring up trouble again?

Just an observation, sir.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Just an observation, sir.

I wasn't sure what you were referring to this time, but enjoyed it anyway.

 

[TennisCJC]

I really haven't nailed down a definition of extension. I tried to understand it when @Shroud was getting fh help from Yandell. There it was described as a hand position around eye level after contact (something like that).

On the 2hbh, what do we mean by extension? Can a bent/bent 2hbh hit and equal extension to the bent/straight 2hbh?

I hit a bent/straight 2hbh, and sometimes I will do drills where I consciously exaggerate reaching forward (like toward ball machine) with fully extended left arm after contact. It seems to produce solid shots, but you wonder if it just tricks you into watching the ball better. I have wondered during those drills how a bent/bent 2hbh could have extension.

Does Venus have extension on her chicken wing 2hbh? If not, does extension matter ... she won majors.

To me "extension" simply means letting the racket face carry through contact more and not pulling up sharply, or across sharply or rolling over the top and smothering the shot.

We get lots of debate on TT about racket path - some say the racket path is slightly up and across. I don't dispute this but even with the racket face moving up for topspin and beginning to move across if you use a rotation stroke, the racket face can still travel "more" through the ball contact and toward the intended target. The old visualization of "hitting through 3 balls" can and is still valid even though the flight line will not be 100% linear and 100% toward your target. In my view, the racket face can move up and across at contact and still have the feel of hitting through 3 balls.

Tracy Austin, Justin G, Patrick Mc and other commentators have talked about a pro "pulling off" too soon or not "staying behind contact". To me, this is saying they aren't extending through contact and are too brushing or pulling too quickly across.

I think you can have "extension" on all strokes including the 2 HBH regardless of arm configuration. Just hit through the ball a little longer toward the target line.

Old concept was hit inside to outside on groundstrokes. Basically, as you rotate hips and shoulders forward to contact, the racket face should travel out away from your core and go up and out toward the target. This is still a legit concept and is not contradictory to modern rotation technique in my view.

 

[ByeByePoly]

To me "extension" simply means letting the racket face carry through contact more and not pulling up sharply, or across sharply or rolling over the top and smothering the shot.

We get lots of debate on TT about racket path - some say the racket path is slightly up and across. I don't dispute this but even with the racket face moving up for topspin and beginning to move across if you use a rotation stroke, the racket face can still travel "more" through the ball contact and toward the intended target. The old visualization of "hitting through 3 balls" can and is still valid even though the flight line will not be 100% linear and 100% toward your target. In my view, the racket face can move up and across at contact and still have the feel of hitting through 3 balls.

Tracy Austin, Justin G, Patrick Mc and other commentators have talked about a pro "pulling off" too soon or not "staying behind contact". To me, this is saying they aren't extending through contact and are too brushing or pulling too quickly across.

I think you can have "extension" on all strokes including the 2 HBH regardless of arm configuration. Just hit through the ball a little longer toward the target line.

Old concept was hit inside to outside on groundstrokes. Basically, as you rotate hips and shoulders forward to contact, the racket face should travel out away from your core and go up and out toward the target. This is still a legit concept and is not contradictory to modern rotation technique in my view.

OK ... I can see that defenition could apply to all strokes regardless of arm bent or straight. The balls trajectory must be set the instant of contact (not sure about snapback launch angle stuff), so to me what we are trying to accomplish is "more square at contact". Same with follow throughs, they can only be useful info if it informs how the racquet was at contact (face, swing path).

To me "3 balls" is just another way to feel like you stick with it for a beat at contact. I feel I am accomplishing that with the 2hbh with the swing thought " reach for opponent/ball machine with extended left arm". Ball is long gone ... it only accomplished something if it made a change at impact. I know contact feels more solid to me on the 2hbhs when I do it. I do wonder about the utility of it. When I see Kerber hit any 2hbh, and Kyrgios hit that killer flat abbreviated 2hbh dtl ... it seems pretty "across".

Thx ... some tips are more obvious than others. Full unit turn ... duh!!! ... better extension ... what you talkin about Willis. (you have to be old for that reference)

 

[Gregory Diamond]

That is my new backhand.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

Backhand seen form above.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

I have just won next important tournament. Since the beginning of May I have won 7 tournaments and in 2 lost in the final. As you see this technique works really well. I am now #3 in Polish ranking in my category.

 

[rkelley]

Lately I changed my two handed . . . [snip-ola]

Which player are you?

 

[mad dog1]

Which player are you?

The dude with the 2hfh. He’s only created 10,000 threads about his 2hfh.

 

[Gregory Diamond]

The dude with the 2hfh. He’s only created 10,000 threads about his 2hfh.

No. I dont agree. It was not 10000 threads. We all know that two handed forehand is the future of tennis so it is not surprising that a lot of threads are about it. What is the point in talking about an ancient one-handed forehand. It is dying.

 

[3loudboys]

No. I dont agree. It was not 10000 threads. We all know that two handed forehand is the future of tennis so it is not surprising that a lot of threads are about it. What is the point in talking about an ancient one-handed forehand. It is dying.

I have been experimenting with a two handed kick serve - far superior, just having some teething problems getting the toss right. I was also thinking of switching to a one legged backhand off a hop step as well. My antiquated one handed forehand required the other parts of my game to shape up. Work in progress - lol


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[Gregory Diamond]

I have been experimenting with a two handed kick serve - far superior, just having some teething problems getting the toss right. I was also thinking of switching to a one legged backhand off a hop step as well. My antiquated one handed forehand required the other parts of my game to shape up. Work in progress - lol


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I appreciate that you are working on modern technique. Two handed serve is possible when you hold the racket exactly as we should when we play two handed forehand. I`ll try to record it today. It would be a great revolution in tennis. We have chance to be famous.

In the video below you can see primitive one handed serve. My friend has powerful forehand from low balls so I played a little higher than I usually play. We played tiebreaks to 10 points and I won all 6 we played so the tactics was good.