Great service pronation super-slow clip: Ljubicic

Marius_Hancu

Marius_Hancu

Talk Tennis Guru
Courtesy of Tennis Ball Hitter, we have this great clip, thus I preferred to repeat my posting in a separate thread.
----------
How do I pronate on serve? I mean, I have an idea, but not really..
Click to expand...

From the "backscratch" position, go towards the ball with the EDGE, not the face of the racquet, and during the last 90 degrees or so (in fact, right when the racquet is closing to the ball) pronate your arm ("check the time on your watch placed on your right wrist"), so it meets the ball with its face.

Continue pronation through impact, as two gears which touch each other in a gearbox; you must make the ball feel the rotation of your racket during contact, that's where the spin comes from.

Check Ljubicic's service pronation in this super-slow clip:
3:57 min 28Mb [Haas Ljubicic Luczak Santoro Grosjean]
http://www.uploadready.com/v/3380085/mo.avi.html

Check JHH's pronation in:
3:38 min 25Mb [Clijsters Henin Mauresmo]
http://www.uploadready.com/v/9653580/ClHeMa.avi.html
(courtesy Tennis Ball Hitter
in this thread from which you should download ALL the clips:

super slow mo videos
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=63073&
 
Last edited:
I'm going to have to check this out tomorrow.

I remember watching the Men's Wimbledon Championship last year. Even though it was bad NBC reception, they showed a fast-motion clip of Roddick's serve. I don't remember just how fast he started to accelerate after his power position, but I remember seeing him pronate and saying, "Man, for all these years, I've been serving incorrectly!"
 
I added the link to JHHs pronation in the posting above
(she's between Kim and Amelie, both impressive, in other respects).

Again, courtesy Tennis Ball Hitter. Thanks from all of us for the great work.
 
JohnYandell said:
Woah. That is great stuff at least 1000 frames a second looks like!
Click to expand...
Yeah, these are the greatest tennis videos I've ever seen. To create imagery and check points that's perfect. Too bad they don't have Fed's serve.
 
Marius_Hancu,

Thanks for the clips and your description. Your comment about going towards the ball with the edge of the racquet on a serve is especially helpful to me. I tried it briefly at practice yesterday and I see how it will really help me with my flat serve. It will take some work to master, but I can see how it can really improve my service action.

However, I'm wondering if you can offer more detail about how to incorporate the "edge" and pronation together on a topspin type serve. Visualizing it, it seems that the pronation motion would work in a manner opposite of the action that would be needed to create the topspin on a serve. That is, the racquet face is moving from a 7ish to 1ish direction for a topspin serve where pronation appears (that's visible in the clips) to be turning the racquet face in a totally different direction. Can you help explain how this works together?

You wouldn't know of a good slow motion clip of a topspin serve would you?

Thanks again.
 
I remember there was a picture of Sampras at the end of his
serve swing. I googled it for a while but couldn't find it.

The pronation in his serve was so extreme that
the picture absolutely did not look like he just finished serving
motion. The racquet head was near his right waist slightly
behind his body.... extreme flexibility and lots of twist...
 
mclee025 said:
However, I'm wondering if you can offer more detail about how to incorporate the "edge" and pronation together on a topspin type serve. Visualizing it, it seems that the pronation motion would work in a manner opposite of the action that would be needed to create the topspin on a serve. That is, the racquet face is moving from a 7ish to 1ish direction for a topspin serve where pronation appears (that's visible in the clips) to be turning the racquet face in a totally different direction. Can you help explain how this works together?
Click to expand...

check the mention to SonicDeviant
in my posting on Kick Serve
in the Sticky
there's a link there
read his postings in that thread
 
Marius_Hancu, I get it now. Logically, it seems totally counter-intuitive to pronate to generate topspin on a serve. As a result, I've had a more or less supinating arm motion when generating the spin with only marginal success.

After reading this thread, I tried leading the stroke with the edge of the racquet and pronating and I managed to generate some pretty nice spin serves. I see how I can dial in a lot more spin using this technique. I'm now on my way to a much more solid serve. Thanks for the great tips.
 
mclee025 said:
...Your comment about going towards the ball with the edge of the racquet on a serve is especially helpful to me. I tried it briefly at practice yesterday and I see how it will really help me with my flat serve. It will take some work to master, but I can see how it can really improve my service action.

However, I'm wondering if you can offer more detail about how to incorporate the "edge" and pronation together on a topspin type serve. Visualizing it, it seems that the pronation motion would work in a manner opposite of the action that would be needed to create the topspin on a serve. That is, the racquet face is moving from a 7ish to 1ish direction for a topspin serve where pronation appears (that's visible in the clips) to be turning the racquet face in a totally different direction.
Click to expand...

Due to some error, I haven't been able to watch any of the videos. Plus, I wouldn't describe myself as a serving expert (or a tennis expert, for that matter). I do flat serves and side spin serves. Just recently, I started to experiment with top spin serves. So, I'm much less an expert on those. Nevertheless, I'll try to explain what's my understanding of this subject. On top spin serves, you do the same; attack the ball as if you were going to hit it with the egde of the raquet and pronate just when about to do contact. The difference is where you throw the ball and what position the raquet is in while making the swing. On top spin serves, you throw the ball on top of your head (maybe, a little to the left... for right handers) and swing the raquet in a more horizontal path. In that position, as you pronate, you add the top spin...

Edit: So, experts (real ones, lol), am I correct?
 
mclee025 said:
After reading this thread, I tried leading the stroke with the edge of the racquet and pronating and I managed to generate some pretty nice spin serves. I see how I can dial in a lot more spin using this technique. I'm now on my way to a much more solid serve. Thanks for the great tips.
Click to expand...

Did you read the postings by Sonicdeviant in this thread:

Pronation only for flat serve??!
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=18490
 
Higher toss will benefit topspin on serves

As I mentioned in another thread:

Originally Posted by Tennismastery
b) a ball dropping will add to a topspin rotation on any serve
Click to expand...

Correct.

This is also presented at the easitennis.com
site. The reason they mention is that the ball falling from higher up
will produce, having a higher vertical speed while dropping, more
friction against the strings of the racket, which at that time is
pretty vertical itself, thus you have this |o (sorry for the
simplified representation) type of contact between the two objects,
where | is the racket and o is the ball. They call this a "shearing"
effect, which produces topspin on the ball.
 
Marius_Hancu said:
Did you read the postings by Sonicdeviant in this thread:

Pronation only for flat serve??!
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=18490
Click to expand...

Yes, I did find that thread. There's a lot of great info there to digest. That's a great link describing what I need. Thanks again Mariu_Hancu.


Ripper said:
Due to some error, I haven't been able to watch any of the videos. Plus, I wouldn't describe myself as a serving expert (or a tennis expert, for that matter). I do flat serves and side spin serves. Just recently, I started to experiment with top spin serves. So, I'm much less an expert on those. Nevertheless, I'll try to explain what's my understanding of this subject. On top spin serves, you do the same; attack the ball as if you were going to hit it with the egde of the raquet and pronate just when about to do contact. The difference is where you throw the ball and what position the raquet is in while making the swing. On top spin serves, you throw the ball on top of your head (maybe, a little to the left... for right handers) and swing the raquet in a more horizontal path. In that position, as you pronate, you add the top spin...

Edit: So, experts (real ones, lol), am I correct?
Click to expand...

Thanks Ripper for a very nice concise summary of how to incorporate edging and pronation into a topspin serve.


***

As far as learning goes, this thread has been one of the best that I've read on improving my tennis. I can't believe I've been struggling to apply topspin on my serve for well over a year and my technique and concept on how it was suppose to be done was wrong.

As mentioned before, I was supinating (essentially rotating the forearm in a clockwise manner) when I should have been pronating in trying to create the spin and the concept of leading with the edge of the racquet in the stroke never occurred to me.

I've read a lot of tennis books and watched a lot of videos and I think coming out with the wrong technique like I did is a very easy pitfall to fall into. I can't believe that none of the material I've read and watched attempts to warn people about going down the wrong road.

Edging and pronation now seems obvious to me to be a couple of very key elements for developing a good serve. Still the physics of how edging and pronation actually works to create the topspin, I don't fully grasp -- a few very good slow mo clips of a topspin serve from different angles might be helpful. As suggested in threads I've browsed, it doesn't make much sense when you try to think through it logically. It's one of those counter-intuitive concepts.

I guess I don't have to understand the physics behind it to be able to do it and I'm pretty glad you guys have set me straight on proper technique. My serve is feeling a lot stronger (and spinny) after only a couple of sessions. Many thanks.
 
Marius_Hancu said:
Courtesy of Tennis Ball Hitter, we have this great clip, thus I preferred to repeat my posting in a separate thread.
----------


From the "backscratch" position, go towards the ball with the EDGE, not the face of the racquet, and during the last 90 degrees or so (in fact, right when the racquet is closing to the ball) pronate your arm ("check the time on your watch placed on your right wrist"), so it meets the ball with its face.

Continue pronation through impact, as two gears which touch each other in a gearbox; you must make the ball feel the rotation of your racket during contact, that's where the spin comes from.

Check Ljubicic's service pronation in this super-slow clip:
3:57 min 28Mb [Haas Ljubicic Luczak Santoro Grosjean]
http://www.uploadready.com/v/3380085/mo.avi.html

Check JHH's pronation in:
3:38 min 25Mb [Clijsters Henin Mauresmo]
http://www.uploadready.com/v/9653580/ClHeMa.avi.html
(courtesy Tennis Ball Hitter
in this thread from which you should download ALL the clips:

super slow mo videos
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=83214&page=2)
Click to expand...


I downloaded them but my Windows Media Player cannot play the files. On the screen, it said, " windows media player cannot play the file. the player might not support the file type or a required codec might not be installed on your computer". I need help.
 
mclee025 said:
Still the physics of how edging and pronation actually works to create the topspin, I don't fully grasp
Click to expand...

read again what I am saying in the original post:

>as two gears which touch each other in a gearbox
 
Do I need to make the ball look like an oval to get a good kick? I was working on my serves today for four hours and it seems like I need to hit more of the ball but whenever I do, I lose spin. I started pronating when the racket is 90 degrees to my forehand, 110 degrees, ?. Any suggestions. I hit only two good ones out of the four hours I was on the court and I don't get it. It kicked sideways.:confused:
 
Wow, you can see the whole racket flex on one of tommys forehand. Would be interesting to see this on the flexpoint rackets.
 
x Southpaw x said:
Nice super slow mo clips... only one volley clip though, do you have one where the clip is full of volleys? That'd be awesome
Click to expand...

not superslow, but very good ones are in my posting
on
Serve and Volley
in the Sticky (topmost thread there)
 
What software do you view these clips with?

I have tried Window Media Player and QuickTime and gotten errors. If should work with either it could be down-load error.
 
dickbarney said:
What software do you view these clips with?

I have tried Window Media Player and QuickTime and gotten errors. If should work with either it could be down-load error.
Click to expand...

see Videolan in the above

also, it might work with others, if you have appropriate codecs. do some searches around here on "codecs"
 
Anyone could give a hand providing Ljubicic or Ivanisevic great serves?. I´d like to see how they hit the ball ....:rolleyes:

Any help will be greatly appreciated. ;)
 
Marius_Hancu said:
Courtesy of Tennis Ball Hitter, we have this great clip, thus I preferred to repeat my posting in a separate thread.
----------


From the "backscratch" position, go towards the ball with the EDGE, not the face of the racquet, and during the last 90 degrees or so (in fact, right when the racquet is closing to the ball) pronate your arm ("check the time on your watch placed on your right wrist"), so it meets the ball with its face.

Continue pronation through impact, as two gears which touch each other in a gearbox; you must make the ball feel the rotation of your racket during contact, that's where the spin comes from.

Check Ljubicic's service pronation in this super-slow clip:
3:57 min 28Mb [Haas Ljubicic Luczak Santoro Grosjean]
http://www.uploadready.com/v/3380085/mo.avi.html

Check JHH's pronation in:
3:38 min 25Mb [Clijsters Henin Mauresmo]
http://www.uploadready.com/v/9653580/ClHeMa.avi.html
(courtesy Tennis Ball Hitter
in this thread from which you should download ALL the clips:

super slow mo videos
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=83214&page=2)
Click to expand...

Marius,

That's a fantastic description of pronation. The gear analogy is excellent.
 
JCo872 said:
Marius,

The gear analogy is excellent.
Click to expand...

I heard the "gear" term from someone else at this site, whose name I've forgotten (sorry). And yes, it describes extremely well the mechanics involved.
 
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