mike danny
Bionic Poster
He is better at Wimb, that much is clear.
Greater Grass Court Player? Murray vs. Nadal
- Thread starter BGod
- Start date
mike danny
Bionic Poster
If only Roger faced Ghostovic in a Wimb final.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
At the Olympics he faced the worst ever Roger in a BO5 grass fin
al though. His SF win over Novak was impressive though.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Whatever it was, Djoko played his worst GS final at 2013 Wimb. Murray is good, but he is not "beat GOAT candidate in straights in a
slam final" good.
Im(moral) Winner
G.O.A.T.
Weirdly enough Delpo also managed to straight set Novak in the same event after the marathon match
Lew II
G.O.A.T.
Yes, before Big4 era.
StrongRule
Talk Tennis Guru
He beat a pretty good Djokovic in the semifinals. Also, Murray played great in the final which is why I'm giving him some credit for that one. He would have never won 6-2 6-1 6-4 against a better Federer on grass but he would still be able to challenge him with that level. (though Federer from Wimbledon 2012 would have probably still won in 4 sets)
On the other hand, Wimbledon 2013 final was a very ugly match and both played on a low level. Murray would have probably lost in straight sets if he had to face the Djokovic from the semifinal.
RF-18
Talk Tennis Guru
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Nevertheless, impressive win from Murray.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Really? So Raonic didn't beat Fed in 2016?Murray beat Fed and Djoko on the way of his 2 titles.
Start da Game
Hall of Fame
he was a hardworking vulture from the highlands........nothing more to be added here........
Djokovic2011
Bionic Poster
The OP was asking who the greater player is, not who's better.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Nadal is greater at Wimb, IMO, while Murray has other grass credentials to his name.
RF-18
Talk Tennis Guru
My bad
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Highlands of Mallorca?
BeatlesFan
Bionic Poster
On grass, though. Not even Murray's wildest fan could ever argue he's a greater player than Rafa. And even on grass, Rafa is arguably the better player. He's beaten Murray three times at Wimbledon and in those three matches, Andy only managed to win one set. In some respects, Rafa overachieved on grass when playing Murray and Andy never really brought his best grass game against Nadal.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Murray would have won anyway, just pointing out this detail
Nobody was beating Murray at 2016 Wimb after Djoko went out.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
I voted Draw:
Both have 2 Championship titles with Nadal making 3 other finals to Murray's 1.
Murray has an Olympic title at Wimbledon, Nadal has none on grass.
Murray has 5 titles at the 2nd most prestigious grasscourt event (Queen's) to Nadal's 1.
Nadal has 1 other grasscourt title (Stuttgart), Murray none.
Murray has 8 grasscourt titles (2nd only to Federer amongst current players), Nadal has 4.
Nadal ahead on finals made at The Championships but Murray's Olympic title evens them out IMO.
Fed’s injury was a leveller, but only to give Murray about 45-50% imo.Murray would have won anyway, just pointing out this detail
Nobody was beating Murray at 2016 Wimb after Djoko went out.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
It's just personal opinion really. Wimb for me above everything else.
I don't count their grass H2H that much since Nadal never played Murray at Wimb after 2011, when Murray clearly improved.
But, overall, Nadal has more finals, better wins and more iconic matches played at Wimb. The 2013 Wimb final was iconic for Murray due to him being a Brit, but by iconic I mostly mean the match itself being a classic, like Wimb 2007 final, Wimb 2008 final and Wimb 2018 SF. Nadal has been involved in all these classics, but unfortunately Murray hasn't been involved in any Wimb classics.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Never knew Djokovic was exhausted in their 2012 Olympic semi. Roddick has gone on record as saying Djokovic beat him like a drum when they met in an earlier round at a time when Roddick thought he was playing well. Djokovic still didn't win a set when he came up against Murray.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Nope. Fed would have needed to be at 2015 level to beat Murray, which he wasn't. Fed would have lost in 4 to Murray if they had met, IMO. Even without the aggravating injury from the Raonic match, Fed's form was just not up to par overall.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
He meant 2013 Wimb, not 2012 Olympics.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Quality of finals and other matches is purely subjective, what counts are results because that's what the stats show. Murray has had plenty of classic matches at Wimbledon just not necessarily against the Big 3. In terms of what the stats say, I stand by my analysis.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Fair enough
Mainad
Bionic Poster
I know what he meant and he implied, of course, that Murray could only beat them when 'exhausted' blah blah. I wanted to remind him why this was not necessarily the case.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
In terms of Murray classics at Wimb, I nominate Gasquet in 2008 and Wawrinka in 2009. Any others in mind?
Close 5 sets imo. He’s always had better of Murray in slams, despite his poor form that tournament. He was still clutch and serving very well. Yes meant the 2013 Wimbledon final.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Olympics SF against Djoko was a very good win. 2012 was the only season I felt Murray was actually a worthy rival against Novak. They played many matches that year and the H2H between them was close at 4-3 Djoko, I think, though Murray lead 3-2 after 2012 USO.
In 2013 they didn't play enough matches, unfortunately due to Murray's back issues. Anoter USO match in 2013 would have been interesting if Murray had been healthy. Heck, even the Stan match would have been interesting if Murray's health hadn't been impaired.
mike danny
Bionic Poster
mike danny
Bionic Poster
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Well I guess it depends on what you will define as classics but these are some of my favourite Murray matches at Wimbledon (other than finals):
2005 v Nalbandian
2008 v Gasquet
2009 v Wawrinka
2009 v Roddick
2010 v Tsonga
2011 v Ljubicic
2012 v Ferrer
2013 v Verdasco
2015 v Karlovic
2016 v Tsonga
mike danny
Bionic Poster
What makes the bolded ones classics?
DSH
Talk Tennis Guru
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Maybe not necessarily 'classics' in your view but hard fought matches at least in the early part. The Ljubicic match went on until late at night under the roof and officials were threatening to suspend it until the next day. Murray was kind of pressured to get it finished on time and I recall he aced his way through the last game to finish it bang on time. Memorable!
mike danny
Bionic Poster
One of Ljubicic's best slam matches and they were very few.Maybe not necessarily 'classics' in your view but hard fought matches at least in the early part. The Ljubicic match went on until late at night under the roof and officials were threatening to suspend it until the next day. Murray was kind of pressured to get it finished on time and I recall he aced his way through the last game to finish it bang on time. Memorable!
Turning Pro
Hall of Fame
Nadal is 3-0 vs Murray at Wimby and has 2 extra finals plus beat the GOAT on grass in 1 of his wins. Plus Nadal Grass peak is better than Murray grass peak. No brainer.
King No1e
G.O.A.T.
In a seminal paper in the Annals of Generalized Assessments of Goatology (A-GAG), a research team led by professors Ernest Fälschung and Ina Unecht (2017) tested this pressing question using the latest, most advanced form of quantum-based statistical forecasting models.
Goatology Forecasting Method Using Artificial Neural Network Based on Quantum-behaved Particle Swarm Optimization
Abstract: Statistical Predictions of Retrospective Tennis (SPORT) is of great significance for the optimal operation and power predication of Greatness-Ontology Assessments in Tennis (GOAT) debates. However, SPORT is very complex to handle due to the random and nonlinear characteristics of hypothetical tennis matches under changeable weather conditions and the stochastic nature of tennis players' form and health status. Artificial Neural Tennis Integrative Calculation (ANTIC) is suitable for SPORT modeling and many research works on this topic are presented. After discussing the relation between weather variations and Nadal injury status, the characteristics of the statistical feature parameters of Hypothetical Tennis under different weather conditions are figured out. A novel ANTIC model using statistical feature parameters (ANTIC-SFP) for SPORT is proposed in this paper. The input vector is reconstructed with several statistical feature parameters of Nadal injury status and ambient temperature. Thus sufficient information can be effectively extracted from relatively few inputs and the model complexity is reduced. The Levenberg-Marquardt Algorithm Output (LMAO) is used for the network training. Simulations are carried out to validate and compare the proposed model with the conventional ANTIC model using Historical Analysis of Hypothetical Assessment (HAHA), and the results indicated that Andy Murray would definitively defeat Rafael Nadal at Wimbledon 2015.
Based on the demonstrated evidence in the results of our analysis, we conclude that mury goat.
Figure 1.
= mury goat
Goatology Forecasting Method Using Artificial Neural Network Based on Quantum-behaved Particle Swarm Optimization
Abstract: Statistical Predictions of Retrospective Tennis (SPORT) is of great significance for the optimal operation and power predication of Greatness-Ontology Assessments in Tennis (GOAT) debates. However, SPORT is very complex to handle due to the random and nonlinear characteristics of hypothetical tennis matches under changeable weather conditions and the stochastic nature of tennis players' form and health status. Artificial Neural Tennis Integrative Calculation (ANTIC) is suitable for SPORT modeling and many research works on this topic are presented. After discussing the relation between weather variations and Nadal injury status, the characteristics of the statistical feature parameters of Hypothetical Tennis under different weather conditions are figured out. A novel ANTIC model using statistical feature parameters (ANTIC-SFP) for SPORT is proposed in this paper. The input vector is reconstructed with several statistical feature parameters of Nadal injury status and ambient temperature. Thus sufficient information can be effectively extracted from relatively few inputs and the model complexity is reduced. The Levenberg-Marquardt Algorithm Output (LMAO) is used for the network training. Simulations are carried out to validate and compare the proposed model with the conventional ANTIC model using Historical Analysis of Hypothetical Assessment (HAHA), and the results indicated that Andy Murray would definitively defeat Rafael Nadal at Wimbledon 2015.
Based on the demonstrated evidence in the results of our analysis, we conclude that mury goat.
Figure 1.
= mury goat
ImmorTAL Big 3
Semi-Pro
Peak Nadal,consistency-Definitely Murray
Pheasant
Legend
Nadal's peak was definitely higher for sure. Nadal had a ridiculously high peak during his 2007-2010 peak years on that surface. But Murray played very well for a longer period of time. This reminds me of the Djoker vs Federer argument at the AO when they were tied at 6 titles each. I chose Federer, simply because his resume at the AO was so ridiculous outside of his 6 titles(mind-blowing 21 wins vs the top 10 and 14 AO semis in 15 years). However, Djoker had a longer peak. Djoker did more in a shorter period of time. This was a tough call. But at 6 titles each, I gave it to Federer at that time.
This is a similar scenario, IMHO.
Let's take a look at their grass court resumes, since it's not just about Wimbledon
Nadal:
71-20, .780 overall
4 grass court titles
9-4, .692 vs top 10 players
Murray:
110-23, .827
8 grass court titles
13-7, .650 vs top 10 players
Here's the kicker. Let's look at terrible losses, which I'll define as being ranked in the top 10, yet losing to players ranked outside of the top 100(massive upsets)
Nadal: 5
Murray: 0
Murray has a much better resume. Nadal peaked a lot higher. But he had a very condensed peak and Murray's resume is simply much better.
I'll pick Murray here.
This is a similar scenario, IMHO.
Let's take a look at their grass court resumes, since it's not just about Wimbledon
Nadal:
71-20, .780 overall
4 grass court titles
9-4, .692 vs top 10 players
Murray:
110-23, .827
8 grass court titles
13-7, .650 vs top 10 players
Here's the kicker. Let's look at terrible losses, which I'll define as being ranked in the top 10, yet losing to players ranked outside of the top 100(massive upsets)
Nadal: 5
Murray: 0
Murray has a much better resume. Nadal peaked a lot higher. But he had a very condensed peak and Murray's resume is simply much better.
I'll pick Murray here.
safinmafia
Rookie
Where's the LMAO option?
TennisLurker
Professional
I don't want to be mean, but both 2013 wimbledon Djokovic and Olympics Federer had been drained by their semifinals against Del Potro. 5 sets for Novak, and a 19-17 third set for Federer.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Given that Del Potro never won anything on grass (or even made a final) it seems odd that both Djokovic and Federer would allow him to detain them for so long on a surface and at a venue they were both all too familiar with.
Rebel-I.N.S
Hall of Fame
Djokovic’s issues in 2013 weren’t physical. I haven’t combed the stats but I’d wager Murray spent more time on court (overall) coming into that final.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
He certainly had a tough quarter-final against Verdasco (5 sets) and a tough semi of his own against Janowicz (then at the height of his meteoric rise to fame).
Federer did beat Murray in 2012 Wimbledon so I'm sure he's capable of beating him again at the Olympic. It's just that he has nothing left in the tank after a gruesome match against Del Potro in the semifinal. Federer was unlucky with a tough draw.
martinezownsclay
Hall of Fame
I have to go with Nadal for his extra Wimbledon finals and 3-0 head to head vs Murray at Wimbledon when 2 of those were in fact prime-ish Murray and he fell relatively easily. That plus beating a prime-ish Federer in a Wimbledon final, and coming very close a 2nd time. It is close though. You could make valid arguments for Murray as well.
