Greater Hardcourt Player - Fed vs Nole?

[Zain786]

Fed on HC -

1) 9 HC Slams (5 US Open, 4 AO) (All Time Record)
2) 6 WTF on HC (3 in Shanghai, 2 in London and 2 in Houston)
3) 17 M1000 Titles on HC (Record)
4) 56 HC Career Titles (Record)
5) 83% Win on HC

Nole on HC -

1) 5 HC Slams (4 AO, 1 US Open)
2) 4 WTF on HC (1 in Shanghai, 3 in London) (3rd Place)
3) 15 M1000 Titles on HC (2nd Place)
4) 37 HC Career Titles (3rd Place)
5) 83% Win on HC

H2H = 14 (Fed) - 13 (Nole)

Outdoor - 14 (Fed) - 13 (Nole)
Indoor - 3 (Fed) - 4 (Nole)

H2H in HC Slams = 4 - 4

Who will have the better states on HC when all is said and done and who do you see as the GOAT on HC's..Who will further generations look at more favorably as the guy who dominated on HC's.

 

[beast of mallorca]

Where's your poll ?

Anyway, it is not even worthy of a question right now, as an unbiased fan. Tho' Djokovic has the time in is hands to eclipse some of Fed's achievements. Will discuss it then

 

[The Green Mile]

Federer. I still think he will be the greater Hardcourt player at the ends of both careers too...

 

[DerekNoleFam1]

Federer definitely at this stage, no matter how biased as a Nole fan I may be.
Too many USO Final losses have hurt his opportunities as well.

 

[Deleted member 688153]

Fed is the HC GOAT.

I think Novak will end up 2nd all-time on HC.

 

[Andres]

I believe Federer is the greatest HC player of all time.

 

[TopFH]

Didn't Federer go something like 100something-2 once on HC?

 

[TMF]

Nole has to be greater than Lendl, Agassi and Sampras before he can compare to Federer.

 

[Gazelle]

This thread = :lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

[mike danny]

Djokovic missed some great opportunities this year to add to his HC slam tally.

AO: Pretty much a guaranteed title if he got past Wawrinka. Berdych,his pigeon would have been next,followed by a completely sub par Nadal.

USO: He had no business losing to Nishikori IMO. The title was really his for the taking. He really was the no.1 favorite after he got past Murray,with no Nadal in his way and no Fed as well (who would have been spent anyway). He would have had his pigeon Cilic in the final, who let's be honest, wasn't going to beat Djokovic regardless of how well the Croatian played. This USO was probably his greatest abd most guaranteed opportunity to win a HC slam and another USO. And he blew it.

Not even a HC slam final this year is dissapointing for a player of Nole's caliber on HC. But maybe he will redeem himslef next year at the AO. Chasing the all time record of AO titles will definetely be his main goal. Passing Fed in AO titles would help his cause IMO in thes comparison.

This way Fed would be the leader in USO titles between them and Nole at AO.

 

[mike danny]

Nole has to be greater than Lendl, Agassi and Sampras before he can compare to Federer.

Agree. Even Agassi has 1 more HC slam than him. Then Sampras has 2 more than him. Let's see if he can pass these 2 before we can talk about Fed, who is 4 HC slams ahead.

Winning 4-5 HC slams post 27 is going to be very hard for Nole. We saw what happened this year when he didn't even reach a HC slam final

Does anyone know the most HC slam titles won post 27 by anybody?

 

[Djokovic2011]

Agree. Even Agassi has 1 more HC slam than him. Then Sampras has 2 more than him. Let's see if he can pass these 2 before we can talk about Fed, who is 4 HC slams ahead.

Winning 4-5 HC slams post 27 is going to be very hard for Nole. We saw what happened this year when he didn't even reach a HC slam final

Does anyone know the most HC slam titles won post 27 by anybody?

Lol, you don't need to worry md - Nole ain't ever gonna be breaking any of Fed's HC records! :wink:

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

Fed on HC -

1) 9 HC Slams (5 US Open, 4 AO) (All Time Record)
2) 6 WTF on HC (3 in Shanghai, 2 in London and 2 in Houston)
3) 17 M1000 Titles on HC (Record)
4) 56 HC Career Titles (Record)
5) 83% Win on HC

Nole on HC -

1) 5 HC Slams (4 AO, 1 US Open)
2) 4 WTF on HC (1 in Shanghai, 3 in London) (3rd Place)
3) 15 M1000 Titles on HC (2nd Place)
4) 37 HC Career Titles (3rd Place)
5) 83% Win on HC

H2H = 14 (Fed) - 13 (Nole)

Outdoor - 14 (Fed) - 13 (Nole)
Indoor - 3 (Fed) - 4 (Nole)

H2H in HC Slams = 4 - 4

Who will have the better states on HC when all is said and done and who do you see as the GOAT on HC's..Who will further generations look at more favorably as the guy who dominated on HC's.

What is this--bait for that Djokovic fan?

 

[mike danny]

Lol, you don't need to worry md - Nole ain't ever gonna be breaking any of Fed's HC records! :wink:

Actually I disagree. He will certainly beat Fed's HC masters 1000 record. He only needs to win 3 more. With Nole being a monster in masters 1000, and being only 27 this isn't a hard task for him to accomplish.

Even at the WTF he still is close to Fed. He needs to win 3 more and by what we saw this year, he doesn't look like slowing down. He had his most dominant form ever at the WTF this year.

So for me, his chances are:

HC Masters: 80-90% chance of obtaining the record

WTF: 65% of equalling the record and somwhere between 50-55% of surpassing it.

At the moment the HC slam record is his most difficult task. He pretty much has to win as much as he has won so far slam wise.

 

[SpinToWin]

At the moment Fed and it's no contest really.

 

[Sysyphus]

Agree. Even Agassi has 1 more HC slam than him. Then Sampras has 2 more than him. Let's see if he can pass these 2 before we can talk about Fed, who is 4 HC slams ahead.

Winning 4-5 HC slams post 27 is going to be very hard for Nole. We saw what happened this year when he didn't even reach a HC slam final

Does anyone know the most HC slam titles won post 27 by anybody?

Yeah, this right here. At this point, the debate is a bit moot. Nole will improve his numbers in the coming couple of years though!

 

[torpantennis]

LOL, this must be the GOAT thread! :lol:

 

[Cup8489]

There's a debate?

 

[Sirius Black]

Cilic's height is false.

 

[Tennisknowledge99]

Federer is definitely greater. From Feb 2005 to Feb 2007. Fed's win - loss on HC was 121-2 (if you include his carpet performance then it will be 130-3). That's insane stats!

 

[Sysyphus]

Cilic's height is false.

Finally there's something in this thread that we can discuss!

 

[jhhachamp]

I don't think Djokovic will be able to catch up to Federer's hard court results.

 

[Sirius Black]

Finally there's something in this thread that we can discuss!

Glad I could contribute to your endless endeavor.

 

[TheMusicLover]

At the moment Fed and it's no contest really.

This. And there's no certainty about what may happen in the future whatsoever.

 

[stringertom]

I don't think Djokovic will be able to catch up to Federer's hard court results.

Oz...he will pass Rogi

MS1000's...real chance

WTF...has a chance

USO...no way!

Total domination of a 3-year era...no one gets that EVER!

 

[beast of mallorca]

Oz...he will pass Rogi

MS1000's...real chance

WTF...has a chance

USO...no way!

Total domination of the weakest 3 year era...no one gets that EVER!

I agree..........:twisted:

 

[Bender]

Fed for now. Those USO losses have really hurt Djokovic's chances. Could change, but unlikely.

Very possible that Djokovic can pass Federer everywhere else though.

 

[90's Clay]

Fed.. Mainly because Nole has underachieved so much at Flushing

 

[Chico]

Fed is better grass player (however not by much as we saw in this year's W final), but Novak is better HC player and will confirm that before everything is said and done.

Even now their HC slam H2H is 4-3 for Novak (2-0 AO, 2-3 USO) since Novak matured and made it to the top 10.

 

[Chico]

Fed on HC -

1) 9 HC Slams (5 US Open, 4 AO) (All Time Record)
2) 6 WTF on HC (3 in Shanghai, 2 in London and 2 in Houston)
3) 17 M1000 Titles on HC (Record)
4) 56 HC Career Titles (Record)
5) 83% Win on HC

Nole on HC -

1) 5 HC Slams (4 AO, 1 US Open)
2) 4 WTF on HC (1 in Shanghai, 3 in London) (3rd Place)
3) 15 M1000 Titles on HC (2nd Place)
4) 37 HC Career Titles (3rd Place)
5) 83% Win on HC

H2H = 14 (Fed) - 13 (Nole)

Outdoor - 14 (Fed) - 13 (Nole)
Indoor - 3 (Fed) - 4 (Nole)

H2H in HC Slams = 4 - 4

Who will have the better states on HC when all is said and done and who do you see as the GOAT on HC's..Who will further generations look at more favorably as the guy who dominated on HC's.

Should not count 2007 AO. Novak was #16 then and not ready to challenge the very top, yet, so their real HC slam H2H is 4-3 in Novak's favor.

 

[Grgisme]

Fed is better grass player (however not by much as we saw in this year's W final), but Novak is better HC player and will confirm that before everything is said and done.

Even now their HC slam H2H is 4-3 for Novak (2-0 AO, 2-3 USO) since Novak matured and made it to the top 10.

Are you insane?

Federer has 7 Wimbledon, Novak 2

Federer has 9 HC majors, Novak 5

Please, be realistic. Please

 

[Deleted member 307496]

Fed is better grass player (however not by much as we saw in this year's W final), but Novak is better HC player and will confirm that before everything is said and done.

Even now their HC slam H2H is 4-3 for Novak (2-0 AO, 2-3 USO) since Novak matured and made it to the top 10.

No he's not and it's not even close.

 

[Djokovic2011]

No he's not and it's not even close.

You fall hook, line and sinker every time. So predictable Sabratha. :|

 

[zep]

Federer played some of the weakest competition to win his GS titles on HCs.

US open:

2004- Hewitt (mediocre talent)
2005- 35 years old Agassi (after 4 back to back 5 setters and no break between semi and final)
2006- Roddick (another mediocre talent)
2007- Djokovic (20 years old first time finalist, failed to close out two sets due to lack of experience)
2008- Murray ( 21 years old first time finalist)

Aus Open:

2004- Safin (good player)
2006- Baghdatis (one time wonder lol)
2007- Gonzalez (another one time wonder lol)
2010- Good player but mentally was not prepared for GS final.

Djokovic on the other hand has had to play much tougher players. He has lost to Nadal twice at the US open final and peak Federer and Murray one each. This should be taken into consideration. Had peak Djokovic played the players Federer got to play, he would have also won most of those finals.

Overall I think both of them are great, Federer is slightly ahead. Federer is better at the open but still Federer's weak competition makes his GS tally larger.

 

[The_Mental_Giant]

spadea.. he was rapping in HC courts.. never seen before..

 

[Deleted member 307496]

Federer played some of the weakest competition to win his GS titles on HCs.

US open:

2004- Hewitt (mediocre talent)
2005- 35 years old Agassi (after 4 back to back 5 setters and no break between semi and final)
2006- Roddick (another mediocre talent)
2007- Djokovic (20 years old first time finalist, failed to close out two sets due to lack of experience)
2008- Murray ( 21 years old first time finalist)

Aus Open:

2004- Safin (good player)
2006- Baghdatis (one time wonder lol)
2007- Gonzalez (another one time wonder lol)
2010- Good player but mentally was not prepared for GS final.

Djokovic on the other hand has had to play much tougher players. He has lost to Nadal twice at the US open final and peak Federer and Murray one each. This should be taken into consideration. Had peak Djokovic played the players Federer got to play, he would have also won most of those finals.

Overall I think both of them are great, Federer is slightly ahead. Federer is better at the open but still Federer's weak competition makes his GS tally larger.

I bet you think Murray is better than a "mediocre talent" yet you class Hewitt as one. It's clear to most people they are equal, why do Djokovic/Nadal fans have to rub Hewitt's face into the dirt?

 

[Deleted member 307496]

Also, 2005 Hewitt at the USO is about equal with 2012 USO final Murray. I think '05 Hewitt would beat that Djokovic.

 

[Chico]

Federer played some of the weakest competition to win his GS titles on HCs.

US open:

2004- Hewitt (mediocre talent)
2005- 35 years old Agassi (after 4 back to back 5 setters and no break between semi and final)
2006- Roddick (another mediocre talent)
2007- Djokovic (20 years old first time finalist, failed to close out two sets due to lack of experience)
2008- Murray ( 21 years old first time finalist)

Aus Open:

2004- Safin (good player)
2006- Baghdatis (one time wonder lol)
2007- Gonzalez (another one time wonder lol)
2010- Good player but mentally was not prepared for GS final.

Djokovic on the other hand has had to play much tougher players. He has lost to Nadal twice at the US open final and peak Federer and Murray one each. This should be taken into consideration. Had peak Djokovic played the players Federer got to play, he would have also won most of those finals.

Overall I think both of them are great, Federer is slightly ahead. Federer is better at the open but still Federer's weak competition makes his GS tally larger.

Very good analysis. Thanks. Agree that weak Fed's competition hurt his position vs Novak, but disagree Fed is still slightly ahead. Clearly Novak is ahead when it comes to HC. Fed is still ahead on grass though as I said already.

 

[Chico]

Also, 2005 Hewitt at the USO is about equal with 2012 USO final Murray. I think '05 Hewitt would beat that Djokovic.

LOL. This is laughable. No version of Hewitt could ever beat prime post 2011 Novak. It is no comparison. Novak is faaaaar superior player in every aspect of the game.

 

[zep]

I bet you think Murray is better than a "mediocre talent" yet you class Hewitt as one. It's clear to most people they are equal, why do Djokovic/Nadal fans have to rub Hewitt's face into the dirt?

Yes Murray is a better player. He has had to compete with 3 ATGs for his titles. He was mentally not great in slam finals till 2012 but overall as a player there is no competition (excluding 2014 Murray). Hewitt took advantage of a weak period between the 90s and the Federer era and won a couple of slams and the #1 rank. Once a great player (Federer) arrived at the scene he went AWOL. I have nothing against Hewitt but no part of his game was world class. He brought a different kind of energy and style of play but after a couple of years people caught up with it. IMO he is of the same level as David Ferrer. I have always admired Hewitt's fighting spirit but his game was not at the same level. I am not rubbing Hewitt's face into the dirt. I am just stating what I think of his game.

 

[Deleted member 307496]

LOL. This is laughable. No version of Hewitt could ever beat prime post 2011 Novak. It is no comparison. Novak is faaaaar superior player in every aspect of the game.

Yes he could have and it's evident to most people who watched him push Federer hard in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MvtwKG2r0M

He pushed Federer harder than Agassi did and in my opinion played as well as Murray did during the USO 2012 final. Djokovic wasn't at his absolute best and that is why I think he'd be able to beat him. He would beat 2005 Hewitt in 2011 form easily.

 

[zep]

Very good analysis. Thanks. Agree that weak Fed's competition hurt his position vs Novak, but disagree Fed is still slightly ahead. Clearly Novak is ahead when it comes to HC. Fed is still ahead on grass though as I said already.

Federer is slightly ahead because he was more efficient in GS. He probably has the most efficient game in the history of tennis and he is the ultimate minnow-basher. He hardly lost to players against whom he was supposed to win at his prime. Djokovic OTOH has lost to players like Nishikori when he had no business of not winning this year's US open. That's what makes Federer slightly better IMO. But Federer's incredible dominance in those 3-4 years was partly due to lack of world class players on surfaces other than clay and partly due to his own efficiency and brilliance.

 

[Deleted member 307496]

Yes Murray is a better player. He has had to compete with 3 ATGs for his titles. He was mentally not great in slam finals till 2012 but overall as a player there is no competition (excluding 2014 Murray). Hewitt took advantage of a weak period between the 90s and the Federer era and won a couple of slams and the #1 rank. Once a great player (Federer) arrived at the scene he went AWOL. I have nothing against Hewitt but no part of his game was world class. He brought a different kind of energy and style of play but after a couple of years people caught up with it. IMO he is of the same level as David Ferrer. I have always admired Hewitt's fighting spirit but his game was not at the same level. I am not rubbing Hewitt's face into the dirt. I am just stating what I think of his game.

There was no "weak period". Agassi was in his prime and Hewitt had to fight him off for some of his titles and he was ranked ahead of him most of the time.

Murray had to compete with Nadal and Federer, and lost almost as badly as Hewitt did against them both at their peaks. Past his prime Hewitt has also pushed Nadal way harder on clay than Murray did during his prime too. He even took a set off Nadal at Roland Garros in 2006, how many sets has Murray taken off Nadal at Roland Garros?

Murray won his slams against Djokovic, had to get through only Djokovic for them and Djokovic arguably wasn't at his best in either match. They are still great victories but they don't make me feel like he's above Hewitt. No way.

Same level as David Ferrer?

You'd have to be a troll to make that comparison. Hewitt at his best would smoke any version of Ferrer, even after many surgeries (and during Ferrer's prime) he nearly beat him on clay at Roland Garros. :lol: Hewitt is hugely above Ferrer in playing ability, talent and most of all mental strength. That's almost insulting to make such a horrible comparison. Good grief.

 

[Deleted member 307496]

No part of his game was world class? Did you start watching tennis last year, zep?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T5RkrASBVQ

Ferrer's never been this quick:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bcOm116RhA

 

[Deleted member 307496]

Apparently outhitting Nalbandian from the baseline isn't "world class".

 

[zep]

There was no "weak period". Agassi was in his prime and Hewitt had to fight him off for some of his titles and he was ranked ahead of him most of the time.

Hewitt won his slams against Sampras who was going through the worst period of his career and Nalbandian. Murray won his slams against peak Djokovic. He has also beaten Federer (who just won won Wimbledon) to win his Olympic gold on grass. Not only that Murray has 9 mastes 1000, Hewitt has 2. Murray has 6 GS finals, Hewitt has 4. Murray has beaten all the big 3, Federer, Nadal, Djokovic at slams and BO5. Hewitt at his beat would not have.

You are free to have your opinion but please don't try to change mine. I am not trolling, I am just expressing my opinion.

No part of his game was world class? Did you start watching tennis last year, zep?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T5RkrASBVQ

No I started watching tennis in 1997.

 

[Mainad]

Murray won his slams against Djokovic, had to get through only Djokovic for them and Djokovic arguably wasn't at his best in either match. They are still great victories but they don't make me feel like he's above Hewitt. No way.

Well, Djokovic was still the world #1 player and Murray had to go through him. At 2002 Wimbledon, the highest seed Hewitt had to face was #4 Henman and he only had to face a rookie Nalbandian in the final who was seeded #28! There's no question that Murray's Wimbledon final at least was more impressive than Hewitt's!

Where Hewitt has the current advantage over Murray is his #1 ranking. That alone puts him slightly ahead of Murray at this point.

 

[zep]

Where Hewitt has the current advantage over Murray is his #1 ranking. That alone puts him slightly ahead of Murray at this point.

#1 Ranking depends on your competition. Would Hewitt be #1 even for a week if he had played alongside Federer, Nadal and Djokovic? I am sure as hell the answer is NO.

 

[Mainad]

Hewitt won his slams against Sampras who was going through the worst period of his career and Nalbandian. Murray won his slams against peak Djokovic. He has also beaten Federer (who just won won Wimbledon) to win his Olympic gold on grass. Not only that Murray has 9 mastes 1000, Hewitt has 2. Murray has 6 GS finals, Hewitt has 4. Murray has beaten all the big 3, Federer, Nadal, Djokovic at slams and BO5. Hewitt at his beat would not have.

Actually, Murray has 7 GS finals: 2008 USO, 2010 AO, 2011 AO, 2012 Wimbledon, 2012 USO, 2013 AO and 2013 Wimbledon.

 

[zep]

Actually, Murray has 7 GS finals: 2008 USO, 2010 AO, 2011 AO, 2012 Wimbledon, 2012 USO, 2013 AO and 2013 Wimbledon.

Oh yeah for some reason I forgot the 2013 AO. :neutral: