Greater Hardcourt player - Federer or Djokovic?
- Thread starter Zain786
- Start date
Pheasant
Legend
The importance of Masters has changed drastically across time. I remember when they were called tune-ups for the slams. I remember seeing players coast in these events. Federer played like he was disinterested in 2006 during Montreal and especially Cinci. He was lucky to win in Montreal, then got crushed in Cinci quite early. He didn't even seem to care that much. Players have skipped Masters events in the past to play other events like Basel; for example. The finals aren't best of 5 anymore, which can change how much they can affect your endurance. The year-end tourney has always been important and has always paid out huge money. The champ earns about as much as a slam winner does. And it's been that way for as long as I can remember. As a matter of fact, last year, Djoker earned a record 4.7 million tourneys for winning that tourney.
To me, the big tourneys are the slams and the year-end tourney. So although Masters are clearly bigger than the 500s, they are still a big step below the slams and year-end tourney; even today. And honestly, the year-end tourneys never have an easy draw. If a couple of key players get injured, you still have a bunch of others that are ranked in the top 10. Even slams can allow a player to win a title with a cream puff path by not once facing anybody that was ranked in the top 20. You won't see many players that have a low winning pct against top 5 on hard courts win a lot of WTF titles(or carpet, back when it was played on carpet).
My opinions are often of the minority. I place far more importance on weeks at #1 and the WTF(or Grand Prix Masters, Masters Cup, or whatever else it's been called) than almost everybody else does.
Neptune
Hall of Fame
Just check ATP points:
slam 2000, YEC 1300-1500, M 1000, 500, 250, 125
slam≈1.5 YEC=2M=4*500=8*250=16*125
and all the Fs SFs QFs...
Neptune
Hall of Fame
While, you should not downplay Ms and emphasize winning streak at the same time.
Also, opposition strength is a factor of equal importance to achievement, dominance and consistency.
Bastion
Semi-Pro
Rafa has his 14 at RG safely in his pocket, and Goat his x10 at AO, no one getting near that anytime soon.
All about the goat:
x1 Wimby, x1 USO then same as Fed, 8 each and 5 each (currently Rafa and Novak has x4 USO titles)
X1 Gold Olympics
Those x3 should be in Goat's top 3 list, the rest bonus's.
All about the goat:
x1 Wimby, x1 USO then same as Fed, 8 each and 5 each (currently Rafa and Novak has x4 USO titles)
X1 Gold Olympics
Those x3 should be in Goat's top 3 list, the rest bonus's.
Much higher peak level. 06 Madrid indoors, 10 Shanghai, 14 demolition. Djokovic showed up more but doesn’t make him better on the surface.
InsideOut900
Legend
Fed played like ass in the 2010 final and wasn't exactly great against Simon either in 2014. And 2010 semi was hardly a demolition.
His 2007, 2010, 2014, 2017 runs were no better on aggregate than Novak's 2012, 2013, 2015, 2018.
I guess I can make a concession for his 2006 run being the best of all, but higher peak with one less title should put them on par at most, especially when Fed didn't really have many chances to get a 4th title except 2007
The Sinner
Semi-Pro
Federer HC prime from end 2003 to early 2010.
Djokovic HC prime from end 2010 to mid 2016.
About the same, if you ask me.
When do you think Sinner's prime will begin? I believe he still needs a whole year to reach his ultimate form.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Thats just another CIE bs
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Exactly. These "Fans" with crutches of CIE, they deserve their new favorites to be forever become a bridesmaid. They don't believe in their new favorites a single bit.
Basically peak vs consistency. Both guys at their best fed will more often than not come out on top on a faster hc like this. Djokovic showed up in form more often to win more titles there. Weird event for Federer. Likely wins 1-2 of 04-05 if he wasn’t injured too. My rankings were based on level as well as titles.
Now giving up HC comparison which is this thread all about?
BTW, dominance and consistency without considering opposition strength does not mean much.
Federer won 8 slams on hard court. He won 5 consecutive USO, including 6 straight final. Only player to win hc slam without dropping a set.
Djokovic won 7 slams. His final record at the USO is 2-4.
LOL,
Del Potro, Roddick > Wawrinka, Murray at the USO. Federer had tougher competition.
DSH
Talk Tennis Guru
The Sinner
Semi-Pro
Hard to tell at this stage, but surely it’s close.
Djokodalerer31
Hall of Fame
And has h2h advantage 20-18 over him on HC as well (Would be 21-18 if that walkover in 2014 in the final of YEC counted as a loss statistically), 7-4 at slams, 8-6 at masters and they are tied 3-3 at YEC (once again 2014 final doesn't count, otherwise would be 4-3 to Novak), the only h2h advantage Federer has is 4-2 at ATP500 level and that one Davis Cup victory eons ago when Djokovic was just a baby and hadn't even entered top-3 for the first time yet!
ImmorTAL Big 3
Semi-Pro
Let's also not forget 1 other fact
Fed is 11-9 vs Nadal on hard.With the staggering 2 wins at outdoor hard before 2017./It would ve been 1 if there was hawkeye back in 2005/.
Novak is 20-7 vs Nadal on hard which is even better stat than Nadal stat vs him on clay which is 20-8.This is quite remarkable considering Nadal clay dominance.Novak haven't lost to Nadal on hard in 10 years also.
I think it's also anothet stat which sums everything perfectly.
Fed is 11-9 vs Nadal on hard.With the staggering 2 wins at outdoor hard before 2017./It would ve been 1 if there was hawkeye back in 2005/.
Novak is 20-7 vs Nadal on hard which is even better stat than Nadal stat vs him on clay which is 20-8.This is quite remarkable considering Nadal clay dominance.Novak haven't lost to Nadal on hard in 10 years also.
I think it's also anothet stat which sums everything perfectly.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
I think this sums up nothing. The discussion is about Federer vs Djokovic hc
Fed having bad matchup vs Nadal doesn't factor here at all.
All of that while played 100 matches less than Fed on the surface and had 40+ less entries. That's the real indicator of Novak's dominance on the hard courts...
Last edited:
Djokodalerer31
Hall of Fame
Literally the only thing, that's left is to win more matches overall and maintain that W/L ratio within that 83.3% - 85% percentage frame until Novak calls it quits and that's it! Needs to keep 'em coming 30 matches per season on average for 3 more seasons and he'll get there and with better percentage likely! But this is 50/50 since we don't know for how long Novak will still be playing and how many more seasons he'll manage to be winning at least 30 matches on HC, but i have hopes he'll eventually bag this one as well and hopefully even gets 800 matches milestone along the way!...
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
No one is breaking 800 if Nole makes it there. Young gen are too fragile.
Fed was playing 100 matches in his prime by playing 250s and 500s
Nole played 80+ by playing mandatory.
And now we see even 70 as a high remark. This year the highest matches played might be with Medvedev at 84. He is an anamoly.
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Makes sense as clay is specialist surface. Nadal beat some low ranked but clay specialists in qfs and semis.
Nole and fed being hc goats, they had to beat the best.
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
Djokovic is #1 on the ATP career return leaderboard on hard courts while Federer is #44. On the serve career leaderboard on hard courts, Federer is #8 while Djokovic is #20. Since these are the two most important shots in tennis, I would give the edge to Djokovic. Federer can hang with Djokovic on fast hard courts like Cincinnati, ATP Finals, Shanghai, Dubai etc., but he has struggled on slower hard courts against Djokovic since 2011.
Similar threads
- Poll
