Greater Hardcourt player - Federer or Djokovic?

nachiket nolefam said:
Djokovic was always going to be the superior hard court player. People knew it back in 2015. He had the AO record and he was just 2 behind fed in USopen. Should have actually broken Fed's 5 USO record but it's too late now.

Djokovic is ahead in
AO
ATP finals
Miami
Rogers cup
Shanghai
Paris

Federer is ahead in
USO
Cincinnati

That's the difference. And oh they are tied on IW which I hope Nole snatches away from Federer.

Nole is unstoppable force on hard courts.
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Why the heck people are so damn sure Novak ain't winning just two more US Opens?! LOL Where does this skeptical nonsense come from?! I mean if he was still on 3 maybe i could have understood, but he is just couple of titles away people...stranger things have happened...LOL I won't even put it behind Novak to win two more RG titles even at this point, let alone two more US Opens...
 
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AO - Djokovic
Dubai - Federer
IW - Federer
Miami - Djokovic
Cincinatti - Federer
Canada - Djokovic
USO - Federer
Madrid/Shanghai - Federer
Basel - Federer
Paris - Djokovic
YEC - Federer

4 to Djokovic, 7 to Federer (5 at masters+ events)

Close but edge to Federer, if both are at their best Federer wins more often than not. Didn’t factor in freebie inflated titles such as AO 21/23, USO 23, YEC 22/23 etc.
 
nachiket nolefam said:
Slams Djokovic 14 Federer 11
Masters Djokovic 28 Federer 23
Win % Djokovic 85.08 Federer 83.26
ATP finals Djokovic 7 Federer 6
Total titles Djokovic 71 Federer 71

Now we can conclusively say that Federer is worse than Djokovic on hard courts.
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This factors in AO 21/23 and USO 23, some of the weakest slams of all time so I wouldn’t read too much into the stats. Your list has Djokovic ahead of Federer at Shanghai too, but we all know fed smashed him there twice so can see who the better player at the event is.
 
Between age 20 and age 21 of Djokovic

Fed was 26 and 27 his supposed best time physically.

Djokovic went 2-1 and 1-1 vs Federer on hc.

There is not even age excuse for fedfans.
 
Hardcourt slam titles
Djoker 14
Federer 11

WTF hardcourt titles
Djoker 7
Federer 6

Total: Djoker 21-17

It’s over. A lead of 4 in the 2 biggest types of events slams the door shut. These 2 big events have always been considered huge and they don’t ever get skipped.

At 17-17, I could have made an argument for Fed by a whisker. Djoker had him in Masters. But Fed had lots of things going for him as far as streaks went, along with more overall titles. At 17-17, it was a good topic to debate. But at 21-17, it’s a done deal. There’s no case for Fed.
 
Pheasant said:
Hardcourt slam titles
Djoker 14
Federer 11

WTF hardcourt titles
Djoker 7
Federer 6

Total: Djoker 21-17

It’s over. A lead of 4 in the 2 biggest types of events slams the door shut. These 2 big events have always been considered huge and they don’t ever get skipped.

At 17-17, I could have made an argument for Fed by a whisker. Djoker had him in Masters. But Fed had lots of things going for him as far as streaks went, along with more overall titles. At 17-17, it was a good topic to debate. But at 21-17, it’s a done deal. There’s no case for Fed.
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21/23 AO and 22/23 YEC don’t move the needle I’m afraid. Fed has many better losing runs than these winning efforts. This isn’t a bean counting exercise.
 
we all saw them play. Fed usually destroyed Djokovic on a decent paced court, even in his older years. On a slower HC he still took him to deciding sets at IW. Doesn’t matter how many titles Djokovic vultures facing Tsitsipas and Medvedev, it won’t erase the beatings he faced.



Just watch this video and deduce who the better hc player is.
 
That’s just one match too. 09/12/15 cincy, 09 USO, 15 Dubai, 10/19 YEC, 2010 Shanghai.

How many times did Djokovic destroy Federer ? Maybe 2 sets 16 AO, 11 Dubai. Everything else was always close sets, never took the racket from his hands.
 
Federer can't be the greatest HC player of all time. Because he lost to Nadal the first 3 times (1st time when Federer was a grizzled 27 year old) at AO.

In other words, Federer has a record of 1-3 record HC slam against Nadal.
 
jm1980 said:
Todd Martin wasted 2 years of Novak's career
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It’s just absurd that his mechanically sound and fluid ‘08 service motion was changed. That’s still one of his strongest serving years (#’s-wise). Novak probably overestimated his ceiling as a server. The ‘08 serve, as time has shown, would’ve been more than good enough.
 
TheFifthSet said:
It’s just absurd that his mechanically sound and fluid ‘08 service motion was changed. That’s still one of his strongest serving years (#’s-wise). Novak probably overestimated his ceiling as a server. The ‘08 serve, as time has shown, would’ve been more than good enough.
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While I would NEVER fault a player for making a change I understand your sentiments. Why was the experiment going on for 2 years yes.
 
Djokovic has obviously surpassed Fed's career numbers, but Federer had one hell of a peak on the surface.

In 2005, he went 50-1. In 2006, 59-2. That's 109 wins and 3 losses in two full seasons. But it gets better: From the 2004 US Open through the end of the year (titles in Bangkok and the YEC as well), he went 16-0 to close out the season. And he started 2007 with 12 straight wins at the Australian and Dubai.

That means over a span of 2.5 years, Federer went 137-3 (97.9%) on the tour's most prominent surface. He won 5 of the 6 slams played, 7 of the 8 Masters he played, and both of the hard court YECs he played. His only losses were to Safin, Nadal, and Murray, all former or future hard court slam winners and world no. 1s. I think it's fair to say no one has ever come close to putting up those kinds of numbers on hard court for any kind of equivalent length of time.
 
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tudwell said:
Djokovic has obviously surpassed Fed's career numbers, but Federer had one hell of a peak on the surface.

In 2005, he went 50-1. In 2006, 59-2. That's 109 wins and 3 losses in two full seasons. But it gets better: From the 2004 US Open through the end of the year (titles in Bangkog and the YEC as well), he went 16-0 to close out the season. And he started 2007 with 12 straight wins at the Australian and Dubai.

That means over a span of 2.5 years, Federer went 137-3 (97.9%) on the tour's most prominent surface. He won 5 of the 6 slams played, 7 of the 8 Masters he played, and both of the hard court YECs he played. His only losses were to Safin, Nadal, and Murray, all former or future hard court slam winners and world no. 1s. I think it's fair to say no one has ever come close to putting up those kinds of numbers on hard court for any kind of equivalent length of time.
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Cumulatives -> Consecutives any time of the day! We all know that Federer was the God when it comes to consecutive numbers stretching from 2004 till 2007 period, but to me having bigger numbers over much longer career span is way way more impressive...
 
Djokodalerer31 said:
Cumulatives -> Consecutives any time of the day! We all know that Federer was the God when it comes to consecutive numbers stretching from 2004 till 2007 period, but to me having bigger numbers over much longer career span is way way more impressive...
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Well I don't disagree. 14 slam titles to 11 is a clear, if not gigantic, margin. 20 finals to 14. And I imagine the gap is only going to grow, as Djokovic doesn't look like he's going to stop winning anytime soon. Could easily end up being 16, even something like 18 hard court slam titles – to Fed's 11. No contest.

By win-loss count, McEnroe had the most dominant season of the Open Era. That doesn't mean he's better or greater than Djokovic, Nadal, Federer, Sampras, etc. But it's a unique feather in his cap, just as Fed's absurd level of dominance on hard court in the aforementioned span is a unique feather in his cap. Those are Nadal-on-clay-like numbers. Just crazy stuff. 3 losses in two and a half years. Novak's lost at least 3 hard court matches per year since he's played on the tour. Never had a 2+ year stretch as untouchable as this one from Federer. That doesn't mean Federer's better overall – I think Djokovic in the end crafted the superior career on the surface – it just means there are some things that Fed (and others) have over Novak even if he has the better career-wide numbers.
 
tudwell said:
Djokovic has obviously surpassed Fed's career numbers, but Federer had one hell of a peak on the surface.

In 2005, he went 50-1. In 2006, 59-2. That's 109 wins and 3 losses in two full seasons. But it gets better: From the 2004 US Open through the end of the year (titles in Bangkog and the YEC as well), he went 16-0 to close out the season. And he started 2007 with 12 straight wins at the Australian and Dubai.

That means over a span of 2.5 years, Federer went 137-3 (97.9%) on the tour's most prominent surface. He won 5 of the 6 slams played, 7 of the 8 Masters he played, and both of the hard court YECs he played. His only losses were to Safin, Nadal, and Murray, all former or future hard court slam winners and world no. 1s. I think it's fair to say no one has ever come close to putting up those kinds of numbers on hard court for any kind of equivalent length of time.
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Yes Federer at his peak was less upset prone. In 2015, Djokovic lost vs Karlovic. That was definitely an upset. But apart from that, he had very well playing Federer in the draw so those losses were going to pile up. Federer in 2015 itself was playing as good a tennis on HC as 2017. His Dominance Ratio in 2015 was at 1.41 and 2017 was at 1.42 where he skipped entire clay season.

Bottom line: Fed's 137-3 is impossible for Nole in 2014 to 2016 on HC. But Fed never had such an opponent during his peak.
Top 5 players in Fed's peak between 2004,2005,2006,2007 had DR of 1.33. I know these are bunch of numbers and still 137-3 is impossible for Djokovic.
 
fedfan24 said:
we all saw them play. Fed usually destroyed Djokovic on a decent paced court, even in his older years. On a slower HC he still took him to deciding sets at IW. Doesn’t matter how many titles Djokovic vultures facing Tsitsipas and Medvedev, it won’t erase the beatings he faced.



Just watch this video and deduce who the better hc player is.
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After '11, Djokovic won all the slam matches with Federer, the important ones. He didn't mind if Federer could win an odd I/W or two non-slams.
 
fedfan24 said:
That’s just one match too. 09/12/15 cincy, 09 USO, 15 Dubai, 10/19 YEC, 2010 Shanghai.

How many times did Djokovic destroy Federer ? Maybe 2 sets 16 AO, 11 Dubai. Everything else was always close sets, never took the racket from his hands.
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AO 2011.
 
Pheasant said:
Hardcourt slam titles
Djoker 14
Federer 11

WTF hardcourt titles
Djoker 7
Federer 6

Total: Djoker 21-17

It’s over. A lead of 4 in the 2 biggest types of events slams the door shut. These 2 big events have always been considered huge and they don’t ever get skipped.

At 17-17, I could have made an argument for Fed by a whisker. Djoker had him in Masters. But Fed had lots of things going for him as far as streaks went, along with more overall titles. At 17-17, it was a good topic to debate. But at 21-17, it’s a done deal. There’s no case for Fed.
Click to expand...
Why not include Masters hard court Titles?
 
nachiket nolefam said:
Yes Federer at his peak was less upset prone. In 2015, Djokovic lost vs Karlovic. That was definitely an upset. But apart from that, he had very well playing Federer in the draw so those losses were going to pile up. Federer in 2015 itself was playing as good a tennis on HC as 2017. His Dominance Ratio in 2015 was at 1.41 and 2017 was at 1.42 where he skipped entire clay season.

Bottom line: Fed's 137-3 is impossible for Nole in 2014 to 2016 on HC. But Fed never had such an opponent during his peak.
Top 5 players in Fed's peak between 2004,2005,2006,2007 had DR of 1.33. I know these are bunch of numbers and still 137-3 is impossible for Djokovic.
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I agree it would've been harder for Djokovic to do. Fed's record (as any record) is somewhat situational – two of the guys that beat him in this stretch hadn't fully matured and the other fell off with injury shortly after getting his win. While Novak, especially in 2011 through 2016, had stronger, more consistent hard court competition.

But even so, as you note, he has losses to a caliber of players that Federer just didn't – not once – in that 2.5-year stretch. In addition to Karlovic in 2015 there were losses to Nishikori, Ferrer, Tipsarevic in 2011. To Isner and Querrey in 2012. To Haas and Isner again in 2013. In 2014 he lost to Tsonga (winning just four games!), Robredo, and Nishikori (at a slam!). In 2016 there was a retirement against Lopez and a loss to RBA, among others. Even if he hadn't had all of Federer, Nadal, Murray, and Wawrinka playing at the same time, I don't think there's a single multi-season stretch where he would have come close to matching Fed's numbers.
 
GoatNo1 said:
HC Fed vs No1e
GS: 11 - 14
WTF: 6 - 7
M: 22 - 29
big titles: 39 - 50
all titles: 71 - 71
W%: 83,26% - 85,08%
GS W%: 86,82% - 89,39%
h2h: 18 - 20
GS h2h: 4 - 7
Click to expand...
SR (events won / competed)
Federer: 71 / 220
Djokovic: 71 / 180

Total finals:
Federer 71-27 72%
Djoko 71-21 77%
 
Djokovic is clear now.

There is no argument left for Federer or his fans.




there-you-have-it-boys-case-closed.gif
 
fedfan24 said:
AO - Djokovic
Dubai - Federer
IW - Federer
Miami - Djokovic
Cincinatti - Federer
Canada - Djokovic
USO - Federer
Madrid/Shanghai - Federer
Basel - Federer
Paris - Djokovic
YEC - Federer

4 to Djokovic, 7 to Federer (5 at masters+ events)

Close but edge to Federer, if both are at their best Federer wins more often than not. Didn’t factor in freebie inflated titles such as AO 21/23, USO 23, YEC 22/23 etc.
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Why is Fed ahead in Shanghai with 1 less title and the event not being played between 2020-2022 for Djoko?
 
AO Djokovic
IW Djokovic
Miami Djokovic
Rogers cup Djokovic
Cincinnati Federer
Shanghai Djokovic
Paris Djokovic
ATP finals Djokovic

Fedfan24 is trying to fool you.

Out of the 8 most important tournaments on hc, Djokovic is better at 6. Even after the bans in usa.
 
Federer in his peak was 1-2 vs Djokovic in 2008 and 1-1 in 2009. Ofcourse the slam wins matter more but Djokovic was just physically not ready to win BO5. In 2010 he was and beat fed in five setter.
 
nachiket nolefam said:
Federer in his peak was 1-2 vs Djokovic in 2008 and 1-1 in 2009. Ofcourse the slam wins matter more but Djokovic was just physically not ready to win BO5. In 2010 he was and beat fed in five setter.
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Peak/prime Federer 2004-2009 vs. peak/prime Djokovic 2011-2016

Many Djoko fans have never seen live matches during peak Federer in his era(Youtube doesn't count).

I've watched both players played at their best on all surfaces and Federer has a higher ceiling
 
TMF said:
Peak/prime Federer 2004-2009 vs. peak/prime Djokovic 2011-2016

Many Djoko fans have never seen live matches during peak Federer in his era(Youtube doesn't count).

I've watched both players played at their best on all surfaces and Federer has a higher ceiling
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And I have watched both play real matches and not your hypothesis. In the real matches nole won all AO encounters. Fed had no chance. Nole won IW Miami easy. Fed won Cincy Shanghai Dubai the smaller events. Nole and fed went tie at USOpen.
 
nachiket nolefam said:
And I have watched both play real matches and not your hypothesis. In the real matches nole won all AO encounters. Fed had no chance. Nole won IW Miami easy. Fed won Cincy Shanghai Dubai the smaller events. Nole and fed went tie at USOpen.
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LOL

Djokovic got clobbered in 2007 AO. Only in 2008 AO Djokovic got a break when Federer was suffering from mono. When Federer recovered from mono illness, he beat Djokovic at the 2008 USO, and again in 2009.
Peak Djokovic lost to Murray and Wawrinka at the USO. No way Federer would lose to them.


Sorry, Djokovic ain't beating Federer during 2004-2009
 
And Federer was beaten until he was 22 on hc. His first real win came at AO 2004. Djokovic did it 2 years earlier. Since he is better than. Federer. This guy deserves nothing but ignore.
 
TMF said:
Peak/prime Federer 2004-2009 vs. peak/prime Djokovic 2011-2016

Many Djoko fans have never seen live matches during peak Federer in his era(Youtube doesn't count).

I've watched both players played at their best on all surfaces and Federer has a higher ceiling
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HC peak Fed and peak Nole comparison

Fed 2004-09
8 Slams
3 YEC
21 Big Titles
89.07% 269-33 Overall
70.00% 28-12 vs Top5
76.25% 61-19 vs Top10
average opponent rank 26

Nole 2011-16
7 Slams
4 YEC
29 Big Titles
90.21% 295-32 Overall
76.67% 46-14 vs Top5
84.43% 103-19 vs Top10
average opponent rank 18

Look at the Huge GAPs, both achievement and opposition.
 
Neptune said:
HC peak Fed and peak Nole comparison

Fed 2004-09
8 Slams
3 YEC
21 Big Titles
89.07% 269-33 Overall
70.00% 28-12 vs Top5
76.25% 61-19 vs Top10
average opponent rank 26

Nole 2011-16
7 Slams
4 YEC
29 Big Titles
90.21% 295-32 Overall
76.67% 46-14 vs Top5
84.43% 103-19 vs Top10
average opponent rank 18

Look at the Huge GAPs, both achievement and opposition.
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You see that 46 wins vs top 5 vs Fed's 28. That's why he has 1 slam less. He would have won 1 of the 2012 or 2013 USO if he faced someone worse than Murray for sure. He barely lost to Murray.
 
Neptune said:
HC peak Fed and peak Nole comparison

Fed 2004-09
8 Slams
3 YEC
21 Big Titles
89.07% 269-33 Overall
70.00% 28-12 vs Top5
76.25% 61-19 vs Top10
average opponent rank 26

Nole 2011-16
7 Slams
4 YEC
29 Big Titles
90.21% 295-32 Overall
76.67% 46-14 vs Top5
84.43% 103-19 vs Top10
average opponent rank 18

Look at the Huge GAPs, both achievement and opposition.
Click to expand...

The most dominant tennis player in his respective era is Roger Federer.

From 2004 - 2009, prime/peak Federer amazes us by winning a staggering 14 out of 24 slams !

He made 20 slam final appearances:
reaches 10 consecutive finals
reaches 4 finals in a season 3 times
won 3 out of 4 slams in a season 3 times
reaches 23 out of 24 slam semifinals

50 single titles

He accumulated 240 weeks at the top of the ATP rankings including an astonishing 237 consecutive weeks.
5 out of 6 years he ended the YE #1.

Prime Federer's dominance and consistency is off the charts !
 
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