Greater US Open player: Nadal vs Djokovic | 2021 Edition

Who is greater?


  • Total voters
    90

duaneeo

Legend
So you can‘t be the HC GOAT unless you have the record at all HC slams? It’s not enough to have won the most HC slams?
No.

Most-wins standing at the AO:
1. Djokovic
2. Federer
3. Agassi
4. Sampras

Most-wins standing at the USO:
1. Federer
1. Sampras
3. Nadal
3. McEnroe
5. Djokovic

Overall HC slam standing:
1. Federer (1.5)
2. Sampras (2.5)
3. Djokovic (3.0)
 
T

TheNachoMan

Guest
The narrative will change with Fed fans as time progresses. It used to be all about numbers but as Djokovic and Nadal gain more while Fed stagnates, it will be about le pretty backhand and le elegant strokes.
 

GabeT

G.O.A.T.
No.

Most-wins standing at the AO:
1. Djokovic
2. Federer
3. Agassi
4. Sampras

Most-wins standing at the USO:
1. Federer
1. Sampras
3. Nadal
3. McEnroe
5. Djokovic

Overall HC slam standing:
1. Federer (1.5)
2. Sampras (2.5)
3. Djokovic (3.0)
So Fed fans, after years of claiming that all that mattered were the total number of slams won, now want to move to a slam-by-slam analysis? :unsure: :unsure: :giggle:
 

GabeT

G.O.A.T.
The narrative will change with Fed fans as time progresses. It used to be all about numbers but as Djokovic and Nadal gain more while Fed stagnates, it will be about le pretty backhand and le elegant strokes.
Some Fed fans now claim we shouldn’t look at total slams, but rather look at each individually. I can see how that would help their fav player.

it’s some Nadal fans that are in a bind. They want to claim that Novak can’t be HC GOAT because he doesn’t have the most USO wins. But using that same logic Nadal will never be overall GOAT no matter how many times he wins the FO because Fed will be ahead in 3 of the 4 slams and Novak ahead in 2 of the 4. Time to pick and choose my friends!
 
T

TheNachoMan

Guest
So Fed fans, after years of claiming that all that mattered were the total number of slams won, now want to move to a slam-by-slam analysis? :unsure: :unsure: :giggle:
I hope Novak gets to 9 at Wimbledon so we can hear Fed is still grass GOAT because of his Halle titles
 

duaneeo

Legend
So Fed fans, after years of claiming that all that mattered were the total number of slams won, now want to move to a slam-by-slam analysis? :unsure: :unsure: :giggle:
You won't find one single quote where I said all that mattered were the number of slams won.
 

Amritia

Hall of Fame
They want to claim that Novak can’t be HC GOAT because he doesn’t have the most USO wins.
Which Nadal fan has said this?

I have personally cited the fact Nadal has won more USOs than Djokovic, mainly when people say Nadal is trash on HC. It is strong evidence of Nadal's HC capabilities.
However I think it's virtually certain that Djokovic will end his career as HC Goat (unless Federer miraculously wins more HC Slams, and Djokovic doesn't).
 

GabeT

G.O.A.T.
Which Nadal fan has said this?

I have personally cited the fact Nadal has won more USOs than Djokovic, mainly when people say Nadal is trash on HC. It is strong evidence of Nadal's HC capabilities.
However I think it's virtually certain that Djokovic will end his career as HC Goat (unless Federer miraculously wins more HC Slams, and Djokovic doesn't).
Quite a few actually. Don’t think I need to mention them by name. They have posted this repeatedly.

for what’s it’s worth saying that Nadal is trash in HC is ridiculous. He’s obviously better at clay but even facing probably the two top HC players ever he won a lot. Without them around Nadal would have a HC ATG career
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
Four players have won more titles at a HC slam than the HC GOAT. Does that sound right to you?
You might have a point if the difference was big but it's not. No one in the OE ever won more than 5 at the USO, no matter the surface. Djokovic has 3. You're acting like he has 1 or something. The standalone fact is, Djokovic absolutely dominated a hardcourt Slam in a way no man or woman before him ever did. He won more AOs than Agassi, Sampras and Lendl combined.
 

GabeT

G.O.A.T.
You point out that you can‘t be HC GOAT when you don’t have the most wins in all HC slams.

similarly if Nadal, say, had stopped at 19 and Novak at 18 slams Fed would still only be ahead of everyone in only one slam, tied in another and behind in the other two.

so you either go for a “total numbers are all that matter” analysis or for the “each component individually” analysis.
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
Four players is big.
But it's two players with 5 and two players with 4. Even there, Djokovic has more finals than all of them without the titles which shows he was a major factor even at that Slam. He has more finals at the USO and AO than anyone else. A difference of 1 and 2 is not that much to change the fact he is overall the best on hardcourt.
 

Amritia

Hall of Fame
Quite a few actually. Don’t think I need to mention them by name. They have posted this repeatedly.

for what’s it’s worth saying that Nadal is trash in HC is ridiculous. He’s obviously better at clay but even facing probably the two top HC players ever he won a lot. Without them around Nadal would have a HC ATG career
Agree with the sentiment. Although I think Nadal has already had HC ATG career.
Done very well at USO and is close to joint record there.
At AO, he has only won once, but even his detractors will agree he's had some misfortune with injuries on a few occasions. Moreover, he's played 2 insane finals @ 2012 and 2017. May not have won, but those performances should be evidence itself of his pedigree.

Anyway Djokovic is HC Goat at the moment, 1 Slam ahead of Fed. That gap will be widened by the end of his career. Focus for Djokovic now is overall GOAT, for which he needs at least 2 more Slams.
 

Yugram

Legend
US Open is really hurting both Federer’s and Djokovic’s claim to HC GOAThood, I’d say even makes them unworthy. For Federer it’s his incapability to win it after turning 28, for Djokovic it’s his lack of titles and a poor H2H against Nadal. I guess we don’t have a decisive hard court GOAT and won’t have for a while. (If Djokovic doesn’t win 2 more US Opens suddenly)

Though Djokovic > Federer in terms of HC greatness, of course.
 

GabeT

G.O.A.T.
Agree with the sentiment. Although I think Nadal has already had HC ATG career.
Done very well at USO and is close to joint record there.
At AO, he has only won once, but even his detractors will agree he's had some misfortune with injuries on a few occasions. Moreover, he's played 2 insane finals @ 2012 and 2017. May not have won, but those performances should be evidence itself of his pedigree.

Anyway Djokovic is HC Goat at the moment, 1 Slam ahead of Fed. That gap will be widened by the end of his career. Focus for Djokovic now is overall GOAT, for which he needs at least 2 more Slams.
Yes, you may right, he’s already a HC ATG. Didn’t run the numbers but my point was that Nadal had incredible HC results more so when you think who he faced. Of course that’s true for all the Big 3. Ultimately that’s why I don’t think any of them will be a clear Goat, they all have unique records
 

USO

Banned
Maybe I will change my vote from Nadal to Djokovic because I feel so sad for Djokovic. This is too embarrassing, nobody deserves to lose so easily in a poll. :unsure:

No I'm kidding, I'll just keep my vote for Nadal. :giggle:
 

GabeT

G.O.A.T.
US Open is really hurting both Federer’s and Djokovic’s claim to HC GOAThood, I’d say even makes them unworthy. For Federer it’s his incapability to win it after turning 28, for Djokovic it’s his lack of titles and a poor H2H against Nadal. I guess we don’t have a decisive hard court GOAT and won’t have for a while. (If Djokovic doesn’t win 2 more US Opens suddenly)

Though Djokovic > Federer in terms of HC greatness, of course.
But if this is true then Nadal can’t be overall GOAT even if he wins the FO and has the most slams. He will still trail Fed at the 3 others and Novak at 2 of them.
 

The_Order

G.O.A.T.
Quite a few actually. Don’t think I need to mention them by name. They have posted this repeatedly.

for what’s it’s worth saying that Nadal is trash in HC is ridiculous. He’s obviously better at clay but even facing probably the two top HC players ever he won a lot. Without them around Nadal would have a HC ATG career
Explain how he doesn't already?

He's won the AO plus made another 4 finals.

Four US Opens plus another final.

That's 10 HC major finals with a 50-50 split which is actually impressive considering Federer and Djokovic were on the other side of the net for a lot of those.

You might bring up other players such as Agassi having more HC majors but I can guarantee you he wouldn't if Fed or Novak were his opponents in some of those finals.
 

duaneeo

Legend
You point out that you can‘t be HC GOAT when you don’t have the most wins in all HC slams.
If I said that, how could I consider Roger (who doesn't have the most wins at the AO) the HC GOAT? What I said is that Nole having won the most number of HC slams isn't enough for him to be considered the HC GOAT. It's established that he's the AO GOAT, but at the other HC slam, he's behind Federer, Sampras, Nadal, and McEnroe in titles. It's not rocket science.

But it's two players with 5 and two players with 4.
Yes, and what is two plus two?
 

GabeT

G.O.A.T.
Explain how he doesn't already?

He's won the AO plus made another 4 finals.

Four US Opens plus another final.

That's 10 HC major finals with a 50-50 split which is actually impressive considering Federer and Djokovic were on the other side of the net for a lot of those.

You might bring up other players such as Agassi having more HC majors but I can guarantee you he wouldn't if Fed or Novak were his opponents in some of those finals.
Already explained elsewhere
 

GabeT

G.O.A.T.
If I said that, how could I consider Roger (who doesn't have the most wins at the AO) the HC GOAT? What I said is that Nole having won the most number of HC slams isn't enough for him to be considered the HC GOAT. It's established that he's the AO GOAT, but at the other HC slam, he's behind Federer, Sampras, Nadal, and McEnroe in titles. It's not rocket science.
you’ve lost me. Are you saying Federer is HC GOAT?
 

Amritia

Hall of Fame
Yes, you may right, he’s already a HC ATG. Didn’t run the numbers but my point was that Nadal had incredible HC results more so when you think who he faced. Of course that’s true for all the Big 3. Ultimately that’s why I don’t think any of them will be a clear Goat, they all have unique records
Nah, I think the one who ends up with the most Slams will be seen as GOAT (or joint GOAT). I agree in reality they're practically inseparable because they have so many unique records.

I think Djokovic's serving at AO was crucial. Made up for his slightly weaker shots from the baseline. If he can keep that up he will be heavy favourite at Wimbledon this year, and USO/AO depending on the conditions. That may be enough to get him over the line. I also do not think Nadal is a cert for RG in the way people think he is.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Actually Djokovic is too lucky at the US Open, he even managed to reach a final there with help of not 1, not 2 but 3 retirements/withdrawals.

Djokovic's run at the 2016 US Open

1R Jerzy Janowicz (PR) 247 Win 6–3, 5–7, 6–2, 6–1
2R Jiří Veselý 49 Walkover N/A
3R Mikhail Youzhny 61 Win 4–2 ret.
4R Kyle Edmund 84 Win 6–2, 6–1, 6–4
QF Jo-Wilfried Tsonga (9) 11 Win 6–3, 6–2 ret.
SF Gaël Monfils (10) 12 Win 6–3, 6–2, 3–6, 6–2
F Stan Wawrinka (3) 3 Loss (2) 7–6(7–1), 4–6, 5–7, 3–6

He did lose at the end but it's just another example of how extremely lucky Djokovic is and how he has overachieved. I mean, 3 matches with opponents not being able to compete? What a joke.
If he didn't win that one, then it shouldn't be counted.
 

Yugram

Legend
But if this is true then Nadal can’t be overall GOAT even if he wins the FO and has the most slams. He will still trail Fed at the 3 others and Novak at 2 of them.
No, I don’t think that what I said necessarily breaks the GOAT debate. You see, the overall GOAT title has less to do with domination and more with raw accomplishments, while surface greatness is mostly decided by domination. And currently I don’t see anyone who dominated both HC Majors enough to be called the surface GOAT.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Djokovic might go into this USO with purpose considering what happened last year. I guess we will have to wait and see. If he's in form, his biggest competition in that group will be Medvedev but after the demotlion he laid on him at the AO, that may have shifted. Don't leave out Zverev who gave Djokovic the toughest match at the AO imo.
That's what I was thinking.

There's no way he won't want to make up for last year's shenanigans. He knew he had that title, but messed up.
 

GabeT

G.O.A.T.
No, I don’t think that what I said necessarily breaks the GOAT debate. You see, the overall GOAT title has less to do with domination and more with raw accomplishments, while surface greatness is mostly decided by domination. And currently I don’t see anyone who dominated both HC Majors enough to be called the surface GOAT.
So you are saying you think that winning the most slams makes you overall GOAT but winning the most HC slams does not make you the HC GOAT?
 

Yugram

Legend
So you are saying you think that winning the most slams makes you overall GOAT but winning the most HC slams does not make you the HC GOAT?
For any overall GOAT debate to exist, we have to admit that the greatest player wasn’t necessarily the best everywhere, and it kind of makes sense, when you take into consideration how many different venues and playing conditions exist on tour currently. But surface specific greatness has a lot to do with being the best at all the biggest events on given surface, at least in my view. Besting 2 tournaments is not a lot to ask from a surface greatest, no?
 

Yugram

Legend
Nah, I think the one who ends up with the most Slams will be seen as GOAT (or joint GOAT). I agree in reality they're practically inseparable because they have so many unique records.

I think Djokovic's serving at AO was crucial. Made up for his slightly weaker shots from the baseline. If he can keep that up he will be heavy favourite at Wimbledon this year, and USO/AO depending on the conditions. That may be enough to get him over the line. I also do not think Nadal is a cert for RG in the way people think he is.
Check PM.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
The narrative will change with Fed fans as time progresses. It used to be all about numbers but as Djokovic and Nadal gain more while Fed stagnates, it will be about le pretty backhand and le elegant strokes.
Nah, even when Fed was ahead in achievements, Djokodal fans were still arguing that his accomplishments were asterisked because of weak era, H2H etc. Now suddenly achievements matter when Djokodal will pass Fed.

Sorry, but you guys can't have the moral high ground.
 

GabeT

G.O.A.T.
For any overall GOAT debate to exist, we have to admit that the greatest player wasn’t necessarily the best everywhere, and it kind of makes sense, when you take into consideration how many different venues and playing conditions exist on tour currently. But surface specific greatness has a lot to do with being the best at all the biggest events on given surface, at least in my view. Besting 2 tournaments is not a lot to ask from a surface greatest, no?
of course you are free to propose whatever definition you want but to me the contradiction is clear.

take Nadal’s example and assume he wins 21 in few weeks. he would still be behind Fed in 3 of the 4 slams, behind Novak in 2 of them. yet under your definition he would be, what, tennis GOAT? Slam GOAT?

meanwhile Novak equally has the most HC slams but because he is not ahead everywhere he can’t be HC GOAT. Can‘t agree with this. :unsure: :unsure:

I would add that for me, just like overall GOAT is not simply slam results neither is HC GOAT simply based on HC slam results. The slams are great but only 8 weeks of the tour a year. There’s plenty of more tennis.
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
For any overall GOAT debate to exist, we have to admit that the greatest player wasn’t necessarily the best everywhere, and it kind of makes sense, when you take into consideration how many different venues and playing conditions exist on tour currently. But surface specific greatness has a lot to do with being the best at all the biggest events on given surface, at least in my view. Besting 2 tournaments is not a lot to ask from a surface greatest, no?
Hardcourt Slam winning percentage


I don't see the issue here.
 

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
Well, it wasn't really strong competition wise and he also didn't play a single top 20 before the final.
Well it wasn't really strong competition when Fedal reeled off 6 straight Slams during that time as well right? He played Nishikori in the SF who was top 20.
 

Amritia

Hall of Fame
For any overall GOAT debate to exist, we have to admit that the greatest player wasn’t necessarily the best everywhere, and it kind of makes sense, when you take into consideration how many different venues and playing conditions exist on tour currently. But surface specific greatness has a lot to do with being the best at all the biggest events on given surface, at least in my view. Besting 2 tournaments is not a lot to ask from a surface greatest, no?
of course you are free to propose whatever definition you want but to me the contradiction is clear.

take Nadal’s example and assume he wins 21 in few weeks. he would still be behind Fed in 3 of the 4 slams, behind Novak in 2 of them. yet under your definition he would be, what, tennis GOAT? Slam GOAT?

meanwhile Novak equally has the most HC slams but because he is not ahead everywhere he can’t be HC GOAT. Can‘t agree with this. :unsure: :unsure:

I would add that for me, just like overall GOAT is not simply slam results neither is HC GOAT simply based on HC slam results. The slams are great but only 8 weeks of the tour a year. There’s plenty of more tennis.
You are both right in a way; I think it's to do with definition.

Imo Djokovic is better than the rest on HC, as he has the most slams (and if tied on slams I'd look at W/L ratio where he is also ahead). Therefore HC GOAT.
However, Nadal's gap on clay is so big that he's not just clay GOAT, but clay God. Rafa is better on clay than anyone is on any individual surface, by miles.

Overall, as I said earlier, GOAT debate consensus will come down to who has most slams. If it is joint, then the debate will continue and fans will cherry pick their favoured stats (W/L record, Weeks@ #1 etc.)
 

GabeT

G.O.A.T.
You are both right in a way; I think it's to do with definition.

Imo Djokovic is better than the rest on HC, as he has the most slams (and if tied on slams I'd look at W/L ratio where he is also ahead). Therefore HC GOAT.
However, Nadal's gap on clay is so big that he's not just clay GOAT, but clay God. Rafa is better on clay than anyone is on any individual surface, by miles.

Overall, as I said earlier, GOAT debate consensus will come down to who has most slams. If it is joint, then the debate will continue and fans will cherry pick their favoured stats (W/L record, Weeks@ #1 etc.)
Sure, Nadal’s dominance on clay is like nothing else we’ve ever seen in tennis.

but if we are to argue that # of slams won determines overall GOAThood it makes little sense to not say the same for surface GOAThood.
 
Top