Greatest Athlete of All Time? The Case for Roger Federer

[octogon]

Except for ********* and a few in the VamosBrigade, it is universally acknowledged Fed is the GOAT.

There is not need to keep affirming the truth.

100 Greatest of All Time - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If going through this analysis by historians and analysts is difficult for you, here is an easy option.

Type in "tennis greatest players" in google and see which image pops up first.. And no, there is no Russian interference to skew the results.

Fed is a universally acknowledged FalseGOAT, mainly based on the now proven false premise that no one could match or overtake him in the SLAM RECORD.

Two players will. Fed had his fun time where everyone thought he was the best ever. At one point people thought Ronda Rousey was the best female fighter ever. Then people found out different.

It'll be good for your sanity if you start to accept now that Fed ain't going down as no GOAT.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

You are missing the point.

GOATdom is not about the sport itself, it's about the achievements in the sport, in relation to one's peers - past, present, and future.

Bradman is arguably the GOAT across all sports.

Don Bradman - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Disagree. You must also keep into account the popularity of the sports which means the depth of the talent pool and potential competitors. Dominating a major sport like tennis, football or basketball is way harder than a sport which is barely played all over the world (not referring to cricket here). Sports like the ones mentioned are generating lots of money and the top stars are millionaires who can afford the best coaches, doctors, equipment, physics etc. It is way harder to dominate in such a nature of perfect circumstances than in an amateur sport.

 

[RaulRamirez]

In what sense? Popularity? Having dominated his sport? I agree Jordan is up there with the best, but the best athlete in terms of physical ability would be either Wilt Chamberlain, Jim Brown or Bo Jackson.

Good names. As just a pure athletic specimen ... I think it may be Wilt. Huge, strong, fast, agile, super-coordinated, great leaping ability, etc.

 

[Deleted member 758560]

The greatest athlete ever imo will always be Michael Jordan.

probably pele as well,

 

[TheGhostOfAgassi]

If it was like a world vote probably some Chinese ping pong master would have won this award.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

Good names. As just a pure athletic specimen ... I think it may be Wilt. Huge, strong, fast, agile, super-coordinated, great leaping ability, etc.

Almost Olympic level in decathlon, NBA legend, HOFamer in volleyball, proficient in tennis and racquetball, gym rat being able to outbench Arnold.

 

[True Fanerer]

In what sense? Popularity? Having dominated his sport? I agree Jordan is up there with the best, but the best athlete in terms of physical ability would be either Wilt Chamberlain, Jim Brown or Bo Jackson.

It was his ability to take over a game. It was like he had on/off switch at will. Chamberlain was a great basketball player, but at his height not nearly the athlete. Jim Brown and Bo Jackson amazing athletes as well. Very high peaks, but I'm talking about the total package.

 

[octogon]

In what sense? Popularity? Having dominated his sport? I agree Jordan is up there with the best, but the best athlete in terms of physical ability would be either Wilt Chamberlain, Jim Brown or Bo Jackson.

All in AMERICAN sports huh? That's convenient

You can't prove who the "best" athlete is in pure physical ability, because different sports require different physical abilities. None of those basketball players or American football players are built to run a marathon. So because they lack the skills of a long distance runner, does that disqualify them. Of course not.

 

[TimHenmanATG]

You heard the saying 'Big fish in a small pond' . It is precisely that

So, if it were a case of a "big fish in a small pond", then why have no other cricketers come remotely close to replicating his statistics?

Bear in mind that international cricket has been around for 150 years, and it's "Serious Business" in many parts of the Commonwealth.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

It was his ability to take over a game. It was like he had on/off switch at will. Chamberlain was a great basketball player, but at his height not nearly the athlete. Jim Brown and Bo Jackson amazing athletes as well. Very high peaks, but I'm talking about the total package.

Wilt ran marathons at the age of 60, he averaged 48.5 minutes per game once over a whole season. Shaq tried this once in the 90s over one single game and when the pace of the game was way slower. He was completely gassed and couldn’t play all 48 minutes. Wilt won a state championship in high jump 1.98m), won decathlon competitions, beat Jim Brown in foot races and out-performed Schwarzenegger in the gym. If this is not the epitome of an athlete I do not know what is. As i said only Brown and Jackson are worthy contenders IMO. Jordan is not in their league in terms of raw athletic ability.

 

[tennisaddict]

So, if it were a case of a "big fish in a small pond", then why have no other cricketers come remotely close to replicating his statistics?

Bear in mind that international cricket has been around for 150 years, and it's "Serious Business" in many parts of the Commonwealth.

Tennis also has a long history, but that has no relevance in judging the talent needed in each sport.

And are we going to say next that ping pong is as physically demanding as tennis ?

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

All in AMERICAN sports huh? That's convenient

You can't prove who the "best" athlete is in pure physical ability, because different sports require different physical abilities. None of those basketball players or American football players are built to run a marathon. So because they lack the skills of a long distance runner, does that disqualify them. Of course not.

See post 60. Wilt did run marathons way after he had retired. He was very versatile athlete and stamina was one of his strongest feats.

 

[True Fanerer]

Wilt ran marathons at the age of 60, he averaged 48.5 minutes per game once over a whole season. Shaq tried this once in the 90s over one single game and when the pace of the game was way slower. He was completely gassed and couldn’t play all 48 minutes. Wilt won a state championship in high jump 1.98m), won decathlon competitions, beat Jim Brown in foot races and out-performed Schwarzenegger in the gym. If this is not the epitome of an athlete I do not know what is. As i said only Brown and Jackson are worthy contenders IMO. Jordan is not in their league in terms of raw athletic ability.

1 on 1 Jordan is winning.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

1 on 1 Jordan is winning.

One on one in what? Basketball? Highly doubt it. Even if it was true, how exactly does this make him the better athlete? We are only talking the one particular sport of basketball. No chance Jordan would be close to Wilts level in most other athletic disciplines.

 

[True Fanerer]

One on one in what? Basketball? Highly doubt it. Even if it was true, how exactly does this make him the better athlete? We are only talking the one particular sport of basketball. No chance Jordan would be close to Wilts level in most other athletic disciplines.

A Shooting Guard will always have the advantage in a 1 on 1 contest over a Center.

 

[Deleted member 758560]

One on one in what? Basketball?.

no, cricket

 

[RaulRamirez]

One on one in what? Basketball? Highly doubt it. Even if it was true, how exactly does this make him the better athlete? We are only talking the one particular sport of basketball. No chance Jordan would be close to Wilts level in most other athletic disciplines.

Jordan may have the better case of being the mythical GOAT of basketball, and he was an incredible athlete. No question. I just don't think he was the all-around special athlete that Wilt was. And as for basketball alone, the NBA enacted rules to reduce Wilt's dominance!

Oops, I may be preaching to the choir here.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

Jordan may have the better case of being the mythical GOAT of basketball, and he was an incredible athlete. No question. I just don't think he was the all-around special athlete that Wilt was. And as for basketball alone, the NBA enacted rules to reduce Wilt's dominance!

Exactly. But those two geniuses responding to my post don’t get it.

 

[N01E]

Except for ********* and a few in the VamosBrigade, it is universally acknowledged Fed is the GOAT.

There is not need to keep affirming the truth.

100 Greatest of All Time - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If going through this analysis by historians and analysts is difficult for you, here is an easy option.

Type in "tennis greatest players" in google and see which image pops up first.. And no, there is no Russian interference to skew the results.

Now where's the haha react when you need it?

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

A Shooting Guard will always have the advantage in a 1 on 1 contest over a Center.

Well whatever. We will not find out anyways .Also care to address the second point? I already mentioned we are talking athlete here which is way more than just basketball.

 

[True Fanerer]

Exactly. But those two geniuses responding to my post don’t get it.

Maybe I should start a poll in O&E asking who win would win in a 1 on 1 game of friggin basketball and see how many vote for Chamberlain over Jordan. No need for smart remarks when my opinion is simply different than yours.

 

[True Fanerer]

Well whatever. We will not find out anyways .Also care to address the second point? I already mentioned we are talking athlete here which is way more than just basketball.

Jordan was a professional in two sports. Chamberlain was not and yes minor league counts.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

Maybe I should start a poll in O&E asking who win would win in a 1 on 1 game of friggin basketball and see how many vote for Chamberlain over Jordan. No need for smart remarks when my opinion is simply different than yours.

Ok you are right. Of course it is totally fine to have different opinions especially over something like this which cannot be proven anyways. Apologies for being rude.

 

[True Fanerer]

Ok you are right. Of course it is totally fine to have different opinions especially over something like this which cannot be proven anyways. Apologies for being rude.

Fair enough.

 

[Deleted member 758560]

Bear in mind that international cricket has been around for 150 years, and it's "Serious Business" in many parts of the Commonwealth.

believe us dude, very few care about your cricket all over the world,..and ooh yeah, so"popular" that it's not even included in the olympics

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

Jordan was a professional in two sports. Chamberlain was not and yes minor league counts.

Well Jordan is great no doubt about it, but question is would he really have gotten the chance to play baseball if he wasn’t already who he was? Wilt could have been “professional” in the sense of Olympiad in track and field and is also in the volleyball HOF. In every sport which requires pure strength he would beat Jordan.

 

[True Fanerer]

Well Jordan is great no doubt about it, but question is would he really have gotten the chance to play baseball if he wasn’t already who he was? Wilt could have been “professional” in the sense of Olympiad in track and field and is also in the volleyball HOF. In every sport which requires pure strength he would beat Jordan.

I read one of his biographies when I was a kid. There's a lot I've forgotten now, but I do remember some of the main stuff. He didn't plan to be a basketball player. He leaned more towards baseball. He batted .202 in his lone season, had 3 hr, 17 doubles, 88 hits. All that at 31 years old which was 12 years removed from the last time he played baseball in high school. They aren't amazing stats compared to a lot of folks, but not bad for a guy just experimenting. I agree that he got the chance because of who he is. At the same time, he wouldn't have gotten the chance without being such a great athlete.

 

[Deleted member 758560]

Maybe I should start a poll in O&E asking who win would win in a 1 on 1 game of friggin basketball and see how many vote for Chamberlain over Jordan.

did you assume people will be thinking about a player mostly not a athlete in this 1 on 1 situation while voting?

 

[True Fanerer]

did you assume people will be thinking about a player mostly not a athlete in this 1 on 1 situation while voting?

Chamberlain isn't winning that poll. I can tell you that much.

 

[T1000]

Federer is the GOAT tennis player. Djokovic has a realistic shot of taking that crown. Jordan isn’t the GOAT athlete and not even the clear cut basketball GOAT (Lebron Kareem and Wilt say hi). Karelin is the GOAT athlete.

Did I miss anything?

 

[Deleted member 766172]

Chamberlain isn't winning that poll. I can tell you that much.

I haven't read most of your guys' debate, but does 1 on 1 really mean that much? Kobe Bryant would have most likely beaten Lebron in 1 on 1 due to the fact that he loves to play iso ball, but most people still go with Lebron as the better athlete. Larry Bird should be in the GOAT debate

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

I read one of his biographies when I was a kid. There's a lot I've forgotten now, but I do remember some of the main stuff. He didn't plan to be a basketball player. He leaned more towards baseball. He batted .202 in his lone season, had 3 hr, 17 doubles, 88 hits. All that at 31 years old which was 12 years removed from the last time he played baseball in high school. They aren't amazing stats compared to a lot of folks, but not bad for a guy just experimenting. I agree that he got the chance because of who he is. At the same time, he wouldn't have gotten the chance without being such a great athlete.

He IS great don’t get me wrong. Also played football in HS and I guess with his jumping ability and quickness he could also have been a beast in some track and field disciplines. Just don’t see him quite on the level of the three I mentioned as those have still a big advantage in raw strength but are also surprisingly good (for their size) in terms of agility, speed etc. Just in my opinion Jordan is a little tad below while of course also one of the very best athletes ever walked on earth.

 

[TimHenmanATG]

Disagree. You must also keep into account the popularity of the sports which means the depth of the talent pool and potential competitors.

Tennis doesn't have a talent pool, though. It's basically an exclusive middle-class sport throughout every nation in the world. It's not like Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, Murray, et al. had to compete against a wide field of their compatriots.

Dominating a major sport like tennis, football or basketball etc.

You are deluded if you think that tennis and basketball are on a par with football.

In the real world, it's football >>>>>> other sports.

is way harder than a sport which is barely played all over the world (not referring t
o cricket here).

CrIcket isn't just some kind of quirky past-time which English people play on the village green.

It's an international sport which is only second in popularity to football.

 

[Deleted member 758560]

Chamberlain isn't winning that poll. I can tell you that much.

thanks i know it ..oh misunderstood here, i didn't try to debate who is better as a athlete between them, as a player overall jordan for sure, but as for an athlete it's not quite so obvious

 

[TimHenmanATG]

believe us dude, very few care about your cricket all over the world,..and ooh yeah, so"popular" that it's not even included in the olympics

You are misinformed, my old mate.

Facts don't care about your feelings.

Cricket is the second most popular sport on Earth.

 

[True Fanerer]

thanks i know it ..oh misunderstood here, i didn't try to debate who is better as a athlete between them, as a player overall jordan for sure, but as for an athlete it's not quite so obvious

It's hard to say. I think Jordan could finesse him in all major sports. It's like apples and oranges because of their height difference. Chamberlain would win at things that require strength or where height is a big advantage. 1 on 1? Hell no imo.

 

[T1000]

I haven't read most of your guys' debate, but does 1 on 1 really mean that much? Kobe Bryant would have most likely beaten Lebron in 1 on 1 due to the fact that he loves to play iso ball, but most people still go with Lebron as the better athlete. Larry Bird should be in the GOAT debate

1 on 1 doesn’t really show who’s the better player. It becomes a game of post ups so given that Jordan/Wilt/Lebron/Kobe are all close in talent and skill, whoever is the biggest/strongest is probably going to win. So Wilt would beat everyone, Lebron would beat Jordan and Kobe, and the last one probably goes to Jordan because he’s better and they’re similar size.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

You are deluded if you think that tennis and basketball are on a par with football.

Where exactly did I say this??? I only mentioned those three as examples, of course I know that football is way above everything else I am as big of a football fan as it can get. Maybe you should work on your reading comprehension before calling others deluded.

rIcket isn't just some kind of quirky past-time which English people play on the village green.

another great example. I explicitly put into brackets that I was not referring to cricket so do not understand why you mention this.

It's an international sport which is only second in popularity to football.

but only in a handful of countries that maybe happen to be of large population. Just few questions, is there as much money involved as in the NBA? Are there talent scouts traveling around to find the biggest talents selling them to rich clubs and training them from an early age? Are there things like elite training academies? Are cricket players practicing 5 hours everyday since they are children controlling what they eat etc. I just want to understand about the o professionalism of this sport, with all due respect I cannot imagine that it is comparable to the NBA for instance. Other than this, as I mentioned 95% of all countries do not even play this sport. Where I live (Germany) or Middle Europe in general I would be pressed to find one single person who even knows the rules let alone having ever played it.

 

[True Fanerer]

I haven't read most of your guys' debate, but does 1 on 1 really mean that much? Kobe Bryant would have most likely beaten Lebron in 1 on 1 due to the fact that he loves to play iso ball, but most people still go with Lebron as the better athlete. Larry Bird should be in the GOAT debate

Yeah LeBron could've played TE on a football team if he wanted to I guess. Everyone is simply guessing though. All we really have to go by is the sport or sports we've witnessed them play.

 

[True Fanerer]

1 on 1 doesn’t really show who’s the better player. It becomes a game of post ups so given that Jordan/Wilt/Lebron/Kobe are all close in talent and skill, whoever is the biggest/strongest is probably going to win. So Wilt would beat everyone, Lebron would beat Jordan and Kobe, and the last one probably goes to Jordan because he’s better and they’re similar size.

WIlt is not beatin Jordan 1 on 1 LOL! He could shake him or shoot from the outside. C'mon man!!

 

[TimHenmanATG]

Tennis also has a long history, but that has no relevance in judging the talent needed in each sport.

And are we going to say next that ping pong is as physically demanding as tennis ?

Don't backtrack, my old mucker.

You suggested that Bradman's statistics were due to a small group of players, and I proved you wrong.

There's no embarrassment in admitting that you were wrong.

 

[Deleted member 758560]

You are misinformed, my old mate.

it's not me i'm afraid.. such a famous countries like kenia, pakistan, india, sri lanka, australia, ok

 

[T1000]

WIlt is not beatin Jordan 1 on 1 LOL! He could shake him or shoot from the outside. C'mon man!!

Have you ever played? Wilt gets the ball once and it’s over. All he has to do is back down Jordan and there’s nothing Jordan can do to stop it. Also Jordan was a terrible outside shooter. Wilts length would cause Jordan to miss eventually. The bigger/stronger player wins 1 on 1 every single time

 

[kevaninho]

In what sense? Popularity? Having dominated his sport? I agree Jordan is up there with the best, but the best athlete in terms of physical ability would be either Wilt Chamberlain, Jim Brown or Bo Jackson.

Im pretty sure modern day 'athletes' trump people from your day.

 

[True Fanerer]

Have you ever played? Wilt gets the ball once and it’s over. All he has to do is back down Jordan and there’s nothing Jordan can do to stop it. Also Jordan was a terrible outside shooter. Wilts length would cause Jordan to miss eventually. The bigger/stronger player wins 1 on 1 every single time

What are you smoking? Please let me have some! Jordan wasn't a great 3 point shooter, but was money from most other spots on the court. He could hit the three as well. All it takes is for Wilt to miss one layup and Jordan is winning. Jordan was a great defender and would steal the ball from Chamberlain. Yes, I've played quite a bit and can shoot 3's all day long.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

thanks i know it ..oh misunderstood here, i didn't try to debate who is better as a athlete between them, as a player overall jordan for sure, but as for an athlete it's not quite so obvious

Why are you so sure that as a player overall Jordan was better. It is hard to compare those two but at least stat wise Wilt can very well hold his own if not even surpass Jordan. Both are the two best scorers the NBA has ever seen. Jordan is slightly ahead but Wilt stopped scoring mid-career so he could have settled this if he wanted. He leads most important scoring records apart from average per game anyways, some of which by a huge margin. Jordan was better in assists (Wilt was surprisingly good here for a center however) and almost certainly in steals (almost as they were not recorded during Wilts time) but Wilt was light years ahead in Rebounds and Blocks. So statistic wise I would give Wilt the edge overall. Things that speak for Jordan are the following:
1) he has way better scoring stats in the playoffs where he raised his game typically while Wilt underperformed.
2) 6>2
3) let’s face it he played in a more competitive era overall compared to Wilt where NBA was at the beginning.
4) Wilts stats are partly incomparable with Jordan’s as during Wilts time the pace of the game was way faster resulting in many more FG attempts combined with very low %. This helped Wilt to grab more rebounds and also he took way more shots than Jordan (his FG percentage at the beginning of his career wasn’t really great though mostly somewhere around 50%).

Things that speak for Wilt:
1) basketball was way less professional so the circumstances weren’t as ideal as during Jordan’s era with seven-digit salary, first class flights, perfect equipment etc.
2) while nba officials did everything to help Jordan to dominate and sell him as the greatest of all time, Wilt did not have this luxury. Rules were changed to stop him from dominating.

All in all Wilt vs Jordan GOAT debate is a very interesting and close one. It is far from being as clear in favor of Jordan as you may think.

 

[True Fanerer]

Chamberlain couldn't back Jordan down from beyond the 3 pt line every single time which is where the ball is taken out. Wilt is just gonna turn around from that far out and back all the way to the goal? No LMAO! Jordan wins this. @T1000

 

[TimHenmanATG]

Here's a statistical representation of Sir Donald GOATman's career:

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

Im pretty sure modern day 'athletes' trump people from your day.

What do you mean by “from my day”? I was born in the late 80s. And can you also explain why you are so sure?

 

[tennisaddict]

Don't backtrack, my old mucker.

You suggested that Bradman's statistics were due to a small group of players, and I proved you wrong.

There's no embarrassment in admitting that you were wrong.

LOL..The very first argument you made was silly, I just let it slide.

You said how far you are apart from peers determines the greatest athlete across all sports and not really the sport itself... I don't know if you can make a more foolish statement when talking about greatest athletes.