Greatest Athletes In History Of Their Sport
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RogerFederer4life
Banned
who is babe ruth???????
Mustard
Bionic Poster
It can't be denied that Michael Phelps is the greatest swimmer, because he dominated across different distances and strokes, and won a ridiculous number of Olympic gold medals, i.e. 18, when no other person has got into double figures for Olympic gold medals.
I don't really know enough about baseball and basketball to be sure if Babe Ruth and Michael Jordan are the greatest of those sports, but clearly they are well up there.
Tennis is far more complex than all of those sports in determining the best of all time, and because of this, I don't see how there can be a definitive GOAT. Federer is one of the challengers, but he has serious competition with players like Gonzales, Laver, Vines, Tilden etc. Don't expect the moneymen to point this out, though, because they have a vested interest in presenting the present era, and the best modern players, as the greatest ever.
I don't really know enough about baseball and basketball to be sure if Babe Ruth and Michael Jordan are the greatest of those sports, but clearly they are well up there.
Tennis is far more complex than all of those sports in determining the best of all time, and because of this, I don't see how there can be a definitive GOAT. Federer is one of the challengers, but he has serious competition with players like Gonzales, Laver, Vines, Tilden etc. Don't expect the moneymen to point this out, though, because they have a vested interest in presenting the present era, and the best modern players, as the greatest ever.
BauerAlmeida
Legend
Jack Nicklaus, Maradona, Usain Bolt, Lance Armstrong, Schumacher/Fangio, Ali, etc.
RogerFederer4life
Banned
Lebron james will surpass Jordan, many will laugh now though, but in a couple of years I will laugh
90's Clay
Banned
Well...
Resume wise- Fed really doesn't compare with Laver's resume (199 titles to Fed's whatever it is and Laver didn't even play the slams in his prime. If he did he would certainly have more major titles then Fed has now).. I'm not even sure he compares with Pancho, Rosewall, or even Tilden for that matter.
Jordan was definitely the best player I ever saw on a basketball court.. And certainly as a top notch resume.. But Russell's, Wilt's, Kareem's resume is dang impressive as well.
Really just too difficult to compare eras at the end of the day.. If we go by resume alone, I'm not sure I would put Fed or MJ on there as there are at least another player or two in their respective sports that have better looking resumes
Resume wise- Fed really doesn't compare with Laver's resume (199 titles to Fed's whatever it is and Laver didn't even play the slams in his prime. If he did he would certainly have more major titles then Fed has now).. I'm not even sure he compares with Pancho, Rosewall, or even Tilden for that matter.
Jordan was definitely the best player I ever saw on a basketball court.. And certainly as a top notch resume.. But Russell's, Wilt's, Kareem's resume is dang impressive as well.
Really just too difficult to compare eras at the end of the day.. If we go by resume alone, I'm not sure I would put Fed or MJ on there as there are at least another player or two in their respective sports that have better looking resumes
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
Exactly. That is the nature of the modern tennis business, even in the face of conflicting evidence.
But I've stated this before, Fed continue to win more means he's moving further ahead of the past retired players. After 2009 RG, Fed was already in the discussion as the goat along with Laver(ahead of Sampras, borg). He could have retired at that time and still holds the top position. But since he continue to add more trophies/records to his unparalleled career, he earn his place to be the greatest. The same with Phelps who continue to add more medals after London, and is now the undisputed greatest swimmer. If you can't denied Phelps, then you can't denied Federer either. And they have not vested in the present era, because Jordan was in the 90s and Ruth was in the 20s.
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JustBob
Hall of Fame
Why would this occur in tennis, and not in other sports?
Mustard
Bionic Poster
It probably does occur in other sports too, but tennis' history is very complicated. These days in tennis, we judge players' records on their number of majors, masters series titles etc. If we go back a certain amount of time, this criteria is obviously nonsense.
Phelps is also in the present era.
They are only interested swimmer in the current era.:roll:
JustBob
Hall of Fame
But it's complicated in most sports because of the evolution of those sports. I don't think tennis is unique in that regard. I'm not a baseball fan but I'm pretty sure Ruth played multiple position including pitching. Football players used to play on both offense and defense, etc...
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Can we make a case that Mark Spitz is better than Michael Phelps? I don't see how.
With tennis, we can say that Pancho Gonzales was the best player in the world for 8 years and beat all his challengers and rivals, and also that he was still a threat to the top players into his 40s. He also won 113 tournaments despite taking bouts of retirement/semi retirement. He had a dominant serve (both in power and variety), was 6ft 3ins tall (much taller than his rivals), had long arms so had a big wing-span, moved like a cat around the court in his prime, and he was a touch player. He also beat his rivals even more badly from the baseline when Jack Kramer once tried to hurt Gonzales by outlawing serve and volleying.
Federer has 290+ weeks as world number 1. Gonzales was number 1 for even longer, even though there weren't official rankings until 1973. Yes, Federer won 17 majors, but Gonzales was banned from them from age 21 to age 40, yet still won 2 majors as an amateur. He also won 15 pro majors, which were against better players than those in the amateurs and fewer in number.
Surely this is enough to show that Federer is not the undisputed GOAT?
As I said before, I don't really know enough about the history of baseball and American football, so it wouldn't be fair for me to comment too much on that.
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THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
Interesting...........
Lsmkenpo
Hall of Fame
This I know for sure, Max Decugis is the greatest clay court player in the history of the sport.
RogerFederer4life
Banned
better than borg?
Mustard
Bionic Poster
tennis_enthusiast
Rookie
How is Wayne Gretzky not on this list?
rofl_copter3
Professional
Michael Jordan is without a doubt the best player backetball has ever seen. He had a will to win that has only been seen in any sport a handful of times... Michael Phelps is right there as well not the same level of will but god given talent that is unrivaled in swimming. Tiger Woods will go down as the most dominant golfer ever with a will to win that may have even surpassed Jordan...
Roger Federer is probably the most talented player to have ever picked up a racket, but with that said there have been other players throughout history that have seemed to have a greater will to win or mental toughness. I believe Federer to be the greatest of all times but not by an unarguable margin...
Roger Federer is probably the most talented player to have ever picked up a racket, but with that said there have been other players throughout history that have seemed to have a greater will to win or mental toughness. I believe Federer to be the greatest of all times but not by an unarguable margin...
RogerFederer4life
Banned
soderling is clearly the GOAT
Lsmkenpo
Hall of Fame
Do you? How's that?
29 FO titles, 6 Olympic medals, in an era where the average life expectancy of a male was around 48 years old. He played through numerous injuries and fought a world war and never whined or complained a damn bit.
Some less informed individuals that get their information from Wikipedia, may say the French Open was not an international event those years, what these ignoramuses fail to realize is there was zero competition outside of France for claycourt tennis at that time. After the tournament was opened internationally it took nearly a decade for anyone other than a French player to win the title.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Decugis won 8 French National Championships (6 on clay, 2 on sand), and 2 Olympic medals. Yes, they were great achievements. How does this prove that Decugis is the best clay-courter of all time?
Have you heard of the World Hard Court Championships? This tournament was the precursor to the French Championships and was played from 1912-1923, and was open to international players! The French Championships wasn't open to international players until 1925, which is why the WHCC was then discontinued. Before 1925, the French Championships was only open to those players who were members of a French tennis club. Nobody else was allowed entry.
And the French Musketeers were the dominant force in tennis in the second half of the 1920s and into the start of the 1930s, not just on clay.
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Lsmkenpo
Hall of Fame
Nope your information is slanted and wrong as usual, the correct info is out there, keep looking. 29 FO titles, not just his singles titles, and 6 Olympic medals, 4 gold, son. I would say it is undisputed 29 FO titles = greatest claycourt player of all time. If another player wins lets say 20 FO titles maybe we could consider him a challenger.
Yeah, I think you should reread my first post where I blow your ignorant response out of the water, like I said there was no worthy international competition outside of France at that time on Clay, do you comprehend this, Yes or No? Your point is moot. Who exactly were you expecting to show to play against the French on clay during that era, the Spanish? LMFAO.
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smoledman
G.O.A.T.
N
NadalAgassi
Guest
There are very few undisputed best evers in their sport. Federer is not the undisputed best ever in the same vein as Michael Phelps in swimming. He is the most popular pick right now but there are arguments to be made for others, unlike in swimming when there is no arguments anyone can make against Phelps. Michael Jordan, Michael Phelps, Michael Schumacher, and "maybe" Wayne Gretzky are the only undisputed best evers in their respective sports I can think of at the moment. The rest can all be debated, including Ali. No way in hell is Tiger Woods the undisputed best ever golfer, in fact he shouldnt even be considered the best ever golfer. Playing in a weaker era that has produced no all time great golfers besides him he still cant catch Nicklaus's major count which he amassed facing other all time greats.
90's Clay
Banned
Not to mention the lesser technology Nicklaus played with with the clubs.. Even more amazing what Nicklaus did when you add in all the all time greats he played against as well. I would put Fed somewhere in the top 5 of all time great tennis players.. Some undisputed best ever though? dominated by his main rival (Something an "undisputed best ever" shouldn't have ), and then you got legit claims to Tilden, Pancho, Laver, Sampras, Rosewall etc..).
Fed has certainly been dominant but certainly not dominant or successful ENOUGH to just give him the undisputed best ever title when you have other guys with similar and arguable more success then that in tennis history. Guys who weren't destroyed time and time again by their main rivals on the big stages.
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Mustard
Bionic Poster
Decugis has 1 Olympic gold medal, not 4. He had a silver in 1900, and a gold and bronze in 1920. And are we counting mixed doubles titles now with Decugis and the French National Championships?
LOL. The World Hard Court Champions were:
1912: Otto Froitzheim (Germany)
1913: Anthony Wilding (New Zealand)
1914: Anthony Wilding (New Zealand)
1920: William Laurentz (France)
1921: Bill Tilden (USA)
1922: Henri Cochet (France)
1923: Bill Johnston (USA)
Hardly French domination. This tournament was on clay, by the way, so don't get confused by the name of the tournament.
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mightyrick
Legend
A few non-obvious sport pics from me:
Formula One - Michael Schumacher
Hockey - Wayne Gretzky
Arm Wrestling - John Brzenk
MMA - Silva
Boxing - Joe Louis or Ali (I can't pick between these)
Formula One - Michael Schumacher
Hockey - Wayne Gretzky
Arm Wrestling - John Brzenk
MMA - Silva
Boxing - Joe Louis or Ali (I can't pick between these)
sonicare
Hall of Fame
Why was gonzalez banned all those years?
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Because Gonzales was a professional player from October 1949 onwards, and the open era didn't start until April 1968. Before the open era, only amateur players could play in the 4 mainstream majors as professional players were banned.
Lsmkenpo
Hall of Fame
6 Olympic medals, 4 gold, keep looking, here is a clue, ever hear of WWI?
Completely different tournament, nearly a decade past Decugis's prime, he won nearly all his singles titles a decade prior to this, just as I stated in my earlier post. How long did it take for a non Frenchman to win the FO after it was opened internationally, answer the question or STFU. You don't want to answer because it shows exactly what I said, no competition outside of France on clay.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
Have you heard of the French Musketeers? Rene Lacoste, Henri Cochet and Jean Borotra dominated tennis in the second half of the 1920s, and not just on clay.
sonicare
Hall of Fame
Thanks.
Could professional players choose to give up their professional status and become amatuers?
Also, which fields were more difficult? the amateurs or the professionals?
tusharlovesrafa
Hall of Fame
Unfortunately cricket isn't popular all over the world.
Mustard
Bionic Poster
It was very tough to do that, and only a handful of players were permitted back into the amateur ranks after playing professionally, like with Henri Cochet after WW2. Usually when a player turned professional back then, there was no going back and it was a dog-eat-dog world. Ashley Cooper, the best amateur player of 1958, didn't deal with the professional game too well.
Hans Nusslein, the great professional player of the 1930s from Germany, was chucked out of the amateurs before he had even competed as an amateur, as the German Tennis Federation claimed he had taken money and gifts from a tennis player and that this was tantamount to turning professional.
In the late 1920s, when the professional tour was just beginning, the top amateurs were the better players. By the time Bill Tilden turned professional in late 1930, the professional game rose in stature and it was more even. By the time Ellsworth Vines became the best professional player in the world in 1934, I think the top professional was now better, although it was still very close. This is how it remained until after WW2.
After WW2, particularly after Jack Kramer became the best professional player in 1948, the top professional players were always much better than the top amateur players.
Lsmkenpo
Hall of Fame
Of course, your point is?
Bobby Jr
G.O.A.T.
Swimming is a bit of a red herring in that respect. There are so many disciplines and lengths which are only minor variations on each other taking Phelps' 18 gold as being a sign he's amongst greats like Steve Redgrave who won at least one gold at five consecutive Olympics (and at 6 different games total) is a little unfair.
They hand out swimming golds like confetti compared to most other sports. If you compare sports in relation to how many events someone can compete in to a high level and how many chances they will get in the span of their entire career swimming comes out with dozens more opportunities than most sports. Phelps may be the greatest swimmer, perhaps of all time, but he's nowhere near the likes of Jordan, Federer etc in terms of overall sporting greatness imo.
Here's some examples to compare him to *traditional* Olympic athletes as well. Decathlete Bryan Clay could be regarded as one of the best all-round athletes of all time in factual terms. He will be lucky to get two shots at an Olympic medal in his career. Basically no-one knows who he is despite having won gold and silver medals in successive Olympics. He ***** on Phelps in terms of overall sporting ability and quality of competition. Likewise, Hicham El Guerrouj only ever won 2 golds and a silver and he is possibly the greatest middle distance runner of all time.
Swimming is a chump sport in terms of being easy to dominate if you're a once in a decade talent. The short recovery times compared to most sports (especially tennis) allow athletes to compete in tons of categories and rack up the medals. If we want to give Phelps an accolade it should be that he is the most successful swimmer of all time or has won the most gold medals. But to put him on par with the likes of Ali, El Guerrouj, Federer, Jordan etc in terms of being amongst the all-time greatest sportspeople I'd not even rate Phelps in the top 20 names I can think of off-hand.
Don't believe me how easy it is to rack up medals in swimming? Let's look at some all-time lists.
- In the top 15 all time list of (summer) gold medal winners... 6 are swimmers, 6 are gymnasts, 1 fencing, 1 athletics, 1 canoeist.
- If you look at athletes who have competed only since 1980 swimmers hold 8 of the top 10 medal winning spots, athletics 1, canoeing 1. (drugs started getting really good in the 80s huh!)
Phelps may be the greatest swimmer of all time but his legend is half that he competes in a soft sport and half that he's America's sweetheart. Had he been born in China or Latvia he would be a relative nobody in global terms - probably remarked about more commonly as the best drugs cheat in history.
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Mustard
Bionic Poster
Is it any wonder then that the French Musketeers dominated the French Championships in the immediate years after the tournament opened its doors to international players?
Interesting how we all agree how Phelps is the best swimmer, which he is, yet Fed is still under review. Swimming has one "major" every four years, and of course in those majors Phelps has won the most, just as Fed has the most majors. But what if Phelps had to swim four majors a year, under different conditions, and still was able to come out on top more often than anyone else, then we would all say, this guy is insane.
When Gonzales played, would a guy ranked 100, have been able to upset one of the guys at the top, and if this did happen once, was it a threat every time. The depth of todays game makes Fed's longevity that much more amazing.
No player will ever be "the undisputed GOAT", because the haters will always be able to find one thing that they didn't do, but when you compile a list of the accomplishments of the greats, and you consistently see one name at the top or near the top of all those accomplishments, it's only logical to say, that person is the GOAT.
ViscaB
Hall of Fame
Even that's debatable. The main discipline in men swimming to me is still the 100m freestyle. Which Phelps never has won. You could argue he's the best all-round swimmer.
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In all sports, the question is difficult to answer. Even in Boxing, many real experts - including Ali himself - would put pound for pound Sugar Ray Robinson over Ali. The guy had only two or three defeats in his prime (in welter and middle), while making around 200 fights and ko-ing over 100 guys. Look at Johnny Weissmüller. He won only 5 Qlympic golds, but he had no 200 crawl, nor any butterfly, backstroke or 4 stroke events in his life, nor all the medleys outside the 4 100 m crawl. But he had Cheetah. In Ice-Hockey many would put Bobby Orr, the offensive defense player over Gretzky. For best sports star i would nominate still Jim Thorpe.
