Greatest Athletes In History Of Their Sport

NadalDramaQueen said:
We both know Federer was too good to allow anyone to accumulate so many titles! Anyone who was on their way before Federer rose up was summarily beat down.



Again with the "true" expert, the true part meaning that they agree with you. :)

We can play this game all day if you want, or we can have a rational discussion about goat candidates without discounting what statistically speaking is easily the strongest era of all time.
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Where are your statistics that this era is the strongest era? Don't blame me for not being rational. Are you rational??
 
BobbyOne said:
No true expert would deny Federer the label "Great Player". But every true expert knows that there were a few greats ahead of Roger: Laver, Rosewall, Gonzalez, Tilden, Borg and maybe Sampras.
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No, only Nadal can be considered ahead of Federer at least in terms of skill.
 
BobbyOne said:
Where are your statistics that this era is the strongest era? Don't blame me for not being rational. Are you rational??
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To put it simply, more people are playing tennis than ever before from more countries than ever before. The sheer increase in numbers of people who seriously consider taking up tennis professionally would easily account for this being the strongest era. At some point it will level off, but this certainly didn't happen 30+ years ago. Go check out performances in ALL sports over time. This is a subject that is of great interest to many researchers!

You admitted in a previous post that the depth of the field is stronger than ever, but what you don't realize is that this is also an admission that the top players of the field are also stronger than ever. When the peak of the bell curve moves to the right, so does the rest of the curve.

You only talk about numbers of titles of opponents and the like. All that shows is relative strength, it shows nothing about the strength of the era. If you go back and read some of the other posts, you will see that this has been mentioned and you have chosen to (wisely) ignore it.

I am simply unable to repeat all of what has been said over and over again. Please read and respond to these points or stop wasting everyone's time by posting the same things over and over again when it doesn't make the point that you desperately want to make.

Or, you can simply stop resorting to "weak era because I like the other eras better" argument and have a goat discussion that is based on many reasonable factors.
 
BobbyOne said:
Bud Collins, Ken Rosewall, Raymond Lee and others
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Collins had Sampras as the greatest player in 2009, and that was before Federer broke his record.

I don't know where you got Rosewall and Lee's quote, but they are probably outdated, or before Federer's time.
 
NadalDramaQueen said:
To put it simply, more people are playing tennis than ever before from more countries than ever before. The sheer increase in numbers of people who seriously consider taking up tennis professionally would easily account for this being the strongest era. At some point it will level off, but this certainly didn't happen 30+ years ago. Go check out performances in ALL sports over time. This is a subject that is of great interest to many researchers!

You admitted in a previous post that the depth of the field is stronger than ever, but what you don't realize is that this is also an admission that the top players of the field are also stronger than ever. When the peak of the bell curve moves to the right, so does the rest of the curve.

You only talk about numbers of titles of opponents and the like. All that shows is relative strength, it shows nothing about the strength of the era. If you go back and read some of the other posts, you will see that this has been mentioned and you have chosen to (wisely) ignore it.

I am simply unable to repeat all of what has been said over and over again. Please read and respond to these points or stop wasting everyone's time by posting the same things over and over again when it doesn't make the point that you desperately want to make.

Or, you can simply stop resorting to "weak era because I like the other eras better" argument and have a goat discussion that is based on many reasonable factors.
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I'm rather new on General PPD.

I do know that I'm in a vast minority here with my opinion that earlier decades have at least as strong been as the current. But I just believed that you and other posters would reflect my thoughts and would be ready to change one or the other thesis of yours.

Your claim that, if the depth is greater, automatically the top must be better, is not compellingly logic!! Watch old videos of Laver and Rosewall and McEnroe and other former greats.

I'm sorry that I vaste your time...
 
BobbyOne said:
I'm rather new on General PPD.

I do know that I'm in a vast minority here with my opinion that earlier decades have at least as strong been as the current. But I just believed that you and other posters would reflect my thoughts and would be ready to change one or the other thesis of yours.

Your claim that, if the depth is greater, automatically the top must be better, is not compellingly logic!! Watch old videos of Laver and Rosewall and McEnroe and other former greats.

I'm sorry that I vaste your time...
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I'm rather new on the entire forum. Perhaps you don't understand the point I am trying to make. I really have no intention to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the past eras are garbage, only that the current eras are not garbage.

All the great players can only deal with the players who are put in front of them, and they all have succeeded otherwise we wouldn't be discussing them. I only want you to try and have a goat discussion where you don't start off claiming that only the past eras were strong, when in fact it can be easily argued that the opposite is true.

Not everybody who has been watching tennis for a long time spends all of their time in the former pro player discussion forum, some of those people can actually watch tennis today and appreciate greatness from all eras. Join the club!
 
NadalDramaQueen said:
I'm rather new on the entire forum. Perhaps you don't understand the point I am trying to make. I really have no intention to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the past eras are garbage, only that the current eras are not garbage.

All the great players can only deal with the players who are put in front of them, and they all have succeeded otherwise we wouldn't be discussing them. I only want you to try and have a goat discussion where you don't start off claiming that only the past eras were strong, when in fact it can be easily argued that the opposite is true.

Not everybody who has been watching tennis for a long time spends all of their time in the former pro player discussion forum, some of those people can actually watch tennis today and appreciate greatness from all eras. Join the club![/QUOTE

Thanks that your words in this post are more friendly.

I do concede that now, having four true top players, it is a strong era.

I only can't stand those fans who automatically give Federer the GOAT label because he has won 17 majors.
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Rippy said:
Because many high profile players disagree with your statement. Interesting that you don't think that Laver is a "true expert". :)
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Rod Laver is arguably the GOAT but he is better in tennis than in ranking. For instance he recently ranked his toughest opponent, Rosewall only at sixth place among the pre-Open Era players.

Did you know that Rosewall has a 10:7 balance against Laver in big events (GS, Pro GS, Masters and WCT finals)? Muscles deserves a better place among the former players.

Several great players are bad experts when proper ranking is concerned. For instance Jack Kramer ranked Riggs above Laver and Rosewall...
 
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BobbyOne said:
Thanks that your words in this post are more friendly.

I do concede that now, having four true top players, it is a strong era.

I only can't stand those fans who automatically give Federer the GOAT label because he has won 17 majors.
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I am not trying to be unfriendly, but I can't stand those fans who think Federer is basically the worst player ever simply because he dominated his field. Give the guy a little credit! He is a part of the current "strong" era at the age of 31, it is certain he would have much more success in 2012 if he was 5 or 6 years younger.

People have many reasons (other than records) for considering a certain player the goat, and I really don't think anybody means any disrespect to others when they place Federer in that position. In my opinion, Federer is at least as deserving a spot at the top as anyone who has ever played. There are a few other players who could be interchanged with him.
 
BobbyOne said:
For instance he recently ranked his toughest opponent, Rosewall only at sixth place among the pre-Open Era players.
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What were those rankings? I think I heard he put Lew Hoad at the top. I found that interesting because when Laver first played Rosewall in early 1963, Laver said "I thought Hoad was brilliant, but Rosewall is even better. I am going to have to learn to play tennis all over again if I am going to live with these top professional players."
 
Mustard said:
What were those rankings? I think I heard he put Lew Hoad at the top. I found that interesting because when Laver first played Rosewall in early 1963, Laver said "I thought Hoad was brilliant, but Rosewall is even better. I am going to have to learn to play tennis all over again if I am going to live with these top professional players."
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Unfortunatelly I can't give you exact information about Laver's ranking. I don't know in which newspaper or network he gave it.

Yes, I remember that Rod ranked Hoad first among the older players which is not a bad ranking since Lew was probably the strongest player at all when "on".

I think Rod also ranked Gonzalez, Kramer, Budge and Perry ahead of Muscles.

Laver also has Federer as best of Open Era if I remember well.
 
Rosewall was a nuisance to Laver. Apart from 1963, when Rosewall won 33 out of 45 matches against Laver, Laver dominated their head-to-head and he was a lot better day-in, day-out from 1964-1970. Yet despite this, Rosewall was always a thorn in Laver's side in the biggest matches, even well into the 1970s.
 
Mustard said:
Rosewall was a nuisance to Laver. Apart from 1963, when Rosewall won 33 out of 45 matches against Laver, Laver dominated their head-to-head and he was a lot better day-in, day-out from 1964-1970. Yet despite this, Rosewall was always a thorn in Laver's side in the biggest matches, even well into the 1970s.
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Yes, as I wrote recently, Rosewall leads Laver by 10:7 at big occasions.

I cannot understand that Rocket ranked Perry ahead of Rosewall. Perry was No. 1 only for one year, in 1941 while Rosewall was No.1 for several years.

And Laver called Rosewall in his book his toughest opponent...
 
Are these the 17 occasions?

Laver beat Rosewall in:

1964 Wembley Pro Final (7-5, 4-6, 5-7, 8-6, 8-6)
1966 Wembley Pro Final (6-2, 6-2, 6-3)
1966 US Pro Final (6-4, 4-6, 6-2, 8-10, 6-3)
1967 Wembley Pro Final (2-6, 6-1, 1-6, 8-6, 6-2)
1967 Wimbledon Pro Final (6-2, 6-2, 12-10)
1969 French Open Final (6-4, 6-3, 6-4)
1970 Dunlop Sydney Open Final (3-6, 6-2, 3-6, 6-2, 6-3)

Rosewall beat Laver in:

1963 French Pro Final (6-8, 6-4, 5-7, 6-3, 6-4)
1963 US Pro Final (6-4, 6-2, 6-2)
1964 French Pro Final (6-3, 7-5, 3-6, 6-3)
1965 French Pro Final (6-3, 6-2, 6-4)
1965 US Pro Final (6-4, 6-3, 6-3)
1966 French Pro Final (6-3, 6-2, 14-12)
1968 French Open Final (6-3, 6-1, 2-6, 6-2)
1971 WCT Dallas Final (6-4, 1-6, 7-6, 7-6)
1972 WCT Dallas Final (4-6, 6-0, 6-3, 6-7, 7-6)
1973 WCT Dallas Third Place Play Off (6-3, 6-2)
 
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TennisLovaLova said:
Hicham El Guerrouj on 1500m was the ultimate runner
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HEG was great, no doubt, but how would you pit him against Coe or Aouita ?

Just thinking: he didn't win an 800 medal, on the other hand, if we consider his 5000m medal then Lasse Viren comes to mind with his double-double (5 and 10k).

btw, HEG gave away the medals last night during the 1500 (won by MacLuffy :D)
 
Mustard said:
Are these the 17 occasions?

Laver beat Rosewall in:

1964 Wembley Pro Final (7-5, 4-6, 5-7, 8-6, 8-6)
1966 Wembley Pro Final (6-2, 6-2, 6-3)
1966 US Pro Final (6-4, 4-6, 6-2, 8-10, 6-3)
1967 Wembley Pro Final (2-6, 6-1, 1-6, 8-6, 6-2)
1967 Wimbledon Pro Final (6-2, 6-2, 12-10)
1969 French Open Final (6-4, 6-3, 6-4)
1970 Dunlop Sydney Open Final (3-6, 6-2, 3-6, 6-2, 6-3)

Rosewall beat Laver in:

1963 French Pro Final (6-8, 6-4, 5-7, 6-3, 6-4)
1963 US Pro Final (6-4, 6-2, 6-2)
1964 French Pro Final (6-3, 7-5, 3-6, 6-3)
1965 French Pro Final (6-3, 6-2, 6-4)
1965 US Pro Final (6-4, 6-3, 6-3)
1966 French Pro Final (6-3, 6-2, 14-12)
1968 French Open Final (6-3, 6-1, 2-6, 6-2)
1971 WCT Dallas Final (6-4, 1-6, 7-6, 7-6)
1972 WCT Dallas Final (4-6, 6-0, 6-3, 6-7, 7-6)
1973 WCT Dallas Third Place Play Off (6-3, 6-2)
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You widely concure with mine.

I also considered SF and r.r. matches in big events:

Laver d. Rosewall in the 1964 US Pro SF
Laver d Rosewall in the 1970 Masters r.r.

I omitted Wimbledon 1967 final because it did not be one of the three standard pro majors even though it was a tremendous tournament.

The same with the 1970 Dunlop event even though it was the "secret 1970 AO"

It's true that altogether (not only Laver/Rosewall encounters) Laver won more first class pro tournaments outside of the pro majors than Rosewall did: Laver won those two events which I have omitted plus two BBC2 championships plus two PSW L.A. events plus four Philadelphia US Pro Indoors plus Forest Hills 1966...

Rosewall won 1 PSW plus 1 BBC2 plus MSG 1966...

And of course Rosewall won 23 majors (WCT finals not included) and Laver won 19...
 
Chillaxer said:
Might come out how much of a drug cheat Armstrong is though. And why Schumahcer not Senna? No offence, but is that cos Argentina has a rivalry with Brazil?
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Senna was great too. If it wasn't for the tragic accident he would've been the goat maybe. But Schumacher's career was better IMO. I don't care about the rivalry, there are some Brazilians I really like, like Kaka or Kuerten.
 
BauerAlmeida said:
Senna was great too. If it wasn't for the tragic accident he would've been the goat maybe. But Schumacher's career was better IMO. I don't care about the rivalry, there are some Brazilians I really like, like Kaka or Kuerten.
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Oh ok, just curious. I sort of was into F1 cos of him and then lost interest when he died. I guess Schumi has it on paper but he never had tha aura or charisma of Senna. I guess most would not factor that into greatness though.
 
Ben Ainslie in sailing.
Won medals in 5 consecutive Olympics (1 silver then 4 golds).
11x World champion
3x ISAF sailor of the year
2x Match Racing world champ (2 different organisations)
Member of 4 America's Cup teams
Commander of the Order of British Empire
 
BlueB said:
Ben Ainslie in sailing.
Won medals in 5 consecutive Olympics (1 silver then 4 golds).
11x World champion
3x ISAF sailor of the year
2x Match Racing world champ (2 different organisations)
Member of 4 America's Cup teams
Commander of the Order of British Empire
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In that case, Russel Coutts in sailing. He makes Ben Ainslie look modest by comparison at the very top level of yachting.

Coutts earned a gold medal at the Olympics and then moved onto the big boy of yachting, the America's Cup - of which he has four. In the AC he has won every single race he's helmed - 20 wins for 0 losses since 1995. Not once has anyone finished ahead of a boat he helmed since 1995!! (If you also include the Louis Vuitton Cups - he's 65 wins for 4 losses, with no losses since 2003)

Ainslie's effort to date in the America's Cup is being the helmsman on the training boat for Team NZ.

Coutts has also won 3 World Match Racing championships.
 
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Bobby Jr said:
In that case, Russel Coutts in sailing. He makes Ben Ainslie look modest by comparison at the very top level of yachting.

Coutts earned a gold medal at the Olympics and then moved onto the big boy of yachting, the America's Cup - of which he has four. In the AC he has won every single race he's helmed - 20 wins for 0 losses since 1995. Not once has anyone finished ahead of a boat he helmed since 1995!! (If you also include the Louis Vuitton Cups - he's 65 wins for 4 losses, with no losses since 2003)

Ainslie's effort to date in the America's Cup is being the helmsman on the training boat for Team NZ.

Coutts has also won 3 World Match Racing championships.
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While I admire Couts, the title of this thread is the Greatest Athlete... Couts did most of his achievements in a way less athletic rolle, and in a team effort where money plays more then 50% of success....
 
BlueB said:
While I admire Couts, the title of this thread is the Greatest Athlete... Couts did most of his achievements in a way less athletic rolle, and in a team effort where money plays more then 50% of success....
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The same (the bolded part) can be said of most soccer players, most footballers, most basketball players, most baseball players as well.

Coutts moulded the elements around him to the best of his abilities - including taking senior design rolls in some of the campaigns, notably being an absolute genius at sail specs/differences and modifications - some now commonly used sail ideas are credited as being from him. He was a scrupulous detail man and match-racer without peer. Granted, he didn't win Olympic medals at the rate Ainslie did. The comparison was less about medals and more about overall achievement in his field.

And money doesn't pay for 50% of the success in America's Cup. It probably pays more like 95%. :D
 
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