Greatest female clay courter ever

[grafselesfan]

Don't think it would have mattered to be honest. Seles was the best player in the world other than grass. Having someone trying to kill you on the court may affect your eating habits too to say nothing of her damaged psyche. Before Steffi's "fan" got her she was the strongest person mentally on the woman's tour. Plus she grew about 3 inches during the period of time which she did not play at all so she had no natural way to adjust to the angles and movement aspects when she did come back. Had she been playing her growth spurt would have been transparent to her like it is anyone else who keeps playing all the time. Steffi was a great player who's GS totals are inflated by the fact that the one player who had her figured out and could not be intimidated by her wasn't there. In my opinion that deranged fan hurt her legacy.

I am a big fan of both Graf an Seles. However Seles has never beaten Graf on faster surfaces, and I am not only talking grass but even fast hard courts or indoors. Seles was able to win on those latter surfaces in the early 90s since Graf was upset in those events, which she wasnt from 1993 to 1996 hardly ever. I really see Graf continuing to dominate grass, but probably getting the better of Seles at the U.S Open too although I am sure they would have great matches. As for the French Open I already explained why Graf would probably still win atleast a couple more, unless you think Seles was going to win atleast 10 straight. There was nobody else from 93-99 who was going to be more likely to beat Seles at the French than Graf. If you think Sanchez, Majoli, or Hingis were more likely to beat Seles at the French Open than Graf then I would like some of what you are smoking. Sanchez is a great player who has a horrible matchup with Seles and is mentally not her usual tough self vs her. Majoli just sucks. Hingis would have the least chance on clay by far of any surface vs Seles, far less than on grass, hard courts, or indoors. Even vs the post stabbing Seles she barely beat her on clay or was destroyed, where as all other surfaces she was faring well vs Seles at that point. Then there is the Australian Open, Graf hardly played it again after 1993 so it is moot.

The stabbing in fact took away alot more from Seles than it added to Graf in the big picture I suspect.

 

[grafselesfan]

Not nice to call names. Graf's record is inflated because Seles was not there. Hans Gunther failed as real fans know who won 3-4 last GS encounters. Seles was firmly the world number 1 and getting better. You want to have Steffi worship go ahead, I like her too but she isn't as good as her record indicates.

I didnt call you stupid, I said dont be stupid with your reasoning. If you think Seles was going to beat Graf for every French Open title than that means she would have won atleast 10 French Opens and be the female clay GOAT easily over anyone else anyway. So it is one or the other basically. Either Seles is the female clay GOAT in your hypothetical, or you are wrong on Graf not winning the French additional times. Either that or your stupid belief Sanchez Vicario, Majoli, or Hingis would beat Seles at the French but Graf wouldnt, in which case if you really feel that way then you really are stupid.

 

[pmerk34]

I am a big fan of both Graf an Seles. However Seles has never beaten Graf on faster surfaces, and I am not only talking grass but even fast hard courts or indoors. Seles was able to win on those latter surfaces in the early 90s since Graf was upset in those events, which she wasnt from 1993 to 1996 hardly ever. I really see Graf continuing to dominate grass, but probably getting the better of Seles at the U.S Open too although I am sure they would have great matches. As for the French Open I already explained why Graf would probably still win atleast a couple more, unless you think Seles was going to win atleast 10 straight. There was nobody else from 93-99 who was going to be more likely to beat Seles at the French than Graf. If you think Sanchez, Majoli, or Hingis were more likely to beat Seles at the French Open than Graf then I would like some of what you are smoking. Sanchez is a great player who has a horrible matchup with Seles and is mentally not her usual tough self vs her. Majoli just sucks. Hingis would have the least chance on clay by far of any surface vs Seles, far less than on grass, hard courts, or indoors. Even vs the post stabbing Seles she barely beat her on clay or was destroyed, where as all other surfaces she was faring well vs Seles at that point. Then there is the Australian Open, Graf hardly played it again after 1993 so it is moot.

The stabbing in fact took away alot more from Seles than it added to Graf in the big picture I suspect.

Leaving your insults aside do you remember their matches? Seles was getting better on hardcourts and don;t you think she would have gotten better on grass?

If you think Graf was in any position at all to retake the the top spot from Seles in 1993 than you do not remember the matches you are simply going back and looking at scores and making a comment in retrospect. Seles was mentally tougher than Steffi which is why she won those close matches. Plus Graf's slice did not bother her except on grass which is basically three weeks out the year. Yes, Wimbledon is worth more than the French but Seles was better everywhere else

 

[grafselesfan]

Leaving your insults aside do you remember their matches? Seles was getting better on hardcourts and don;t you think she would have gotten better on grass?

If you think Graf was in any position at all to retake the the top spot from Seles in 1993 than you do not remember the matches you are simply going back and looking at scores and making a comment in retrospect. Seles was mentally tougher than Steffi which is why she won those close matches. Plus Graf's slice did not bother her except on grass which is basically three weeks out the year. Yes, Wimbledon is worth more than the French but Seles was better everywhere else

Yes I remember their matches well. I have seen all of them. Their only match on hard courts close to the time of the stabbing was the 1993 Australian Open. Of course that match was on rebound ace, which IMO is Seles's best surface and Graf's worst. Seles IMO would have gone on to be the greatest rebound ace player ever, and Graf hardly played there after 1993 so it doesnt even matter much to Graf's record had Seles continued as normal. That particular surface is further from say decoturf of the U.S Open than even clay is in the matchup between the two. Their last match on hard courts was in the Spring of 1991 which was a more medium paced hard courts. I remember Graf being down 4-1 in the 1st set but coming back to win very easily in the end.

 

[grafselesfan]

You can't win 'em all. And even if she did win all those French open's Evert is still better on clay. Look it up. (you'll have to dig deep and do more than just slam count here sorry)

How would Evert be better on clay if Seles won atleast 10 French Opens, which she was certain to if Graf never won a French which is what you are claiming. Even vs very weak clay court competition, which has already been established in the other thread, Evert only won 7 French Opens. Yet according to you Graf was never going to beat Seles at the French again, which means she was going to win atleast 10 French Opens (I dont care if that is what you are agreeing or not, I am saying it now that if Graf doesnt beat her on clay from 93-99 no way in hell Sanchez, Majoli, or Hingis does, fact for fact). So Seles would have won many more French Opens, under your theory of Graf never beating her at the French, and done so vs much more competition than Evert had at the French.

 

[pmerk34]

Yes I remember their matches well. I have seen all of them. Their only match on hard courts close to the time of the stabbing was the 1993 Australian Open. Of course that match was on rebound ace, which IMO is Seles's best surface and Graf's worst. Seles IMO would have gone on to be the greatest rebound ace player ever, and Graf hardly played there after 1993 so it doesnt even matter much to Graf's record had Seles continued as normal. That particular surface is further from say decoturf of the U.S Open than even clay is in the matchup between the two. Their last match on hard courts was in the Spring of 1991 which was a more medium paced hard courts. I remember Graf being down 4-1 in the 1st set but coming back to win very easily in the end.

That is true but she may have played the AO if Seles was around and Seles would have added to her Slam total there plus with Seles collecting some other Slams at Steffi's expense they may have ended up almost even in slams. I guess my whole point is that it is insane IMO to look at Steffi's slam totals without a knowing nod to the fact there her toughest competition was not there. I recall there battles from that time period ans Seles wasn't going anywhere she was a brutal player who, like you have alluded to dispatched lesser players with ease. She made Sanchez Vicario who was an excellent player - look like the 100th ranked player in the world.

 

[pmerk34]

How would Evert be better on clay if Seles won atleast 10 French Opens, which she was certain to if Graf never won a French which is what you are claiming. Even vs very weak clay court competition, which has already been established in the other thread, Evert only won 7 French Opens. Yet according to you Graf was never going to beat Seles at the French again, which means she was going to win atleast 10 French Opens (I dont care if that is what you are agreeing or not, I am saying it now that if Graf doesnt beat her on clay from 93-99 no way in hell Sanchez, Majoli, or Hingis does, fact for fact). So Seles would have won many more French Opens, under your theory of Graf never beating her at the French, and done so vs much more competition than Evert had at the French.

LOL. Evert was banned from playing the French for two or three straight years in the mid 70's. The tour was way different then with different priorities. No one slam counted back then. At one point Evert won 125 straight on clay and at one point was around 200-1 on the surface. Evert was the queen of clay. End of story. Like I said you have to do more than Slam count on this one.

 

[grafrules]

That is true but she may have played the AO if Seles was around and Seles would have added to her Slam total there plus with Seles collecting some other Slams at Steffi's expense they may have ended up almost even in slams. I guess my whole point is that it is insane IMO to look at Steffi's slam totals without a knowing nod to the fact there her toughest competition was not there. I recall there battles from that time period ans Seles wasn't going anywhere she was a brutal player who, like you have alluded to dispatched lesser players with ease. She made Sanchez Vicario who was an excellent player - look like the 100th ranked player in the world.

What on earth makes you think Graf would have played the Australian Open years she didnt if Seles had been there? Graf never willingly skipped the Australian Open. Each time she missed it she was injured. Do you really think she would have given up winning an additional 2 Calender Slams in 1995 and 1996 just because she didnt want to play with Seles not there. If Graf was the greedy vulture you make her out to be she would have been more eager to play there with Seles gone.

Sanchez Vicario is a much tougher matchup for Graf than Seles the same way Seles would have had alot more trouble with Williams, Hingis and Davenport than Graf would have even if they were in their primes together. Seles is fortunate most of the top players in the early 90s were tougher matchups for Graf than for her and she didnt have to play Graf in finals as often. Seles was never anywhere near as dominant vs Steffi as her overall slam dominance in the early 90s would indicate as it was anyway, as it turns out most of the players who emerged later in the decade are ones Seles would have done much worse vs than Graf. Seles is lucky the supporting cast of the early 90s was players like Sanchez and Sabatini and not Williams or Hingis.

 

[CEvertFan]

One can't automatically give every major to Seles after the '93 AO. That's just silly. Would Graf have won less then her 22 majors if Seles had never been stabbed? Probably. Would Seles have won EVERY major until she was past her prime? I seriously don't think so, especially on fast grass or fast hardcourts. Graf was just too good of a player to make that even remotely plausible. What would have happened if Seles hadn't been stabbed was that the Graf/Seles rivalry would have really come into it's own and blossomed, which is really the thing I would have most liked to have seen.

For the record I don't think Seles would have broken Evert's record 7 French Opens even if she hadn't been stabbed. Even the great Graf couldn't do it, with the absence of Seles, although she's come the closest out of anyone since 1986.

All these woulda coulda shoulda threads are becoming a bit tiresome. Everyone has different opinions and are entitled to express them but there is also a lack of respect for opinions that differ from their own.

 

[CEvertFan]

I managed to find some numbers for clay court career records. I don't know if they are 100% accurate, but they are interesting.

Rank Player Wins Losses Win %
1. Chris Evert 316 20 94.1
2. Steffi Graf 268 29 90.2
3. Justine Henin 122 19 86.5
4. Monica Seles 142 25 85.0
5. Martina Hingis 109 25 81.3
6. Martina Navratilova 202 47 81.1
7. Gabriela Sabatini 196 49 80.0
8. Venus Williams* 116 31 78.9
9. Lindsay Davenport 120 35 77.4
10. Serena Williams* 74 22 77.1

 

[boredone3456]

I managed to find some numbers for clay court career records. I don't know if they are 100% accurate, but they are interesting.

Rank Player Wins Losses Win %
1. Chris Evert 316 20 94.1
2. Steffi Graf 268 29 90.2
3. Justine Henin 122 19 86.5
4. Monica Seles 142 25 85.0
5. Martina Hingis 109 25 81.3
6. Martina Navratilova 202 47 81.1
7. Gabriela Sabatini 196 49 80.0
8. Venus Williams* 116 31 78.9
9. Lindsay Davenport 120 35 77.4
10. Serena Williams* 74 22 77.1

Wow...Davenport at Number 9...never would have though that in my life, unless that includes green clay?

 

[grafselesfan]

I managed to find some numbers for clay court career records. I don't know if they are 100% accurate, but they are interesting.

Rank Player Wins Losses Win %
1. Chris Evert 316 20 94.1
2. Steffi Graf 268 29 90.2
3. Justine Henin 122 19 86.5
4. Monica Seles 142 25 85.0
5. Martina Hingis 109 25 81.3
6. Martina Navratilova 202 47 81.1
7. Gabriela Sabatini 196 49 80.0
8. Venus Williams* 116 31 78.9
9. Lindsay Davenport 120 35 77.4
10. Serena Williams* 74 22 77.1

Which only goes to show how they cant be the only barometer. After all does anyone really believe Justine Henin is a greater clay courter than Monica Seles. Justin won 4 French Opens only because she was in an era with no other quality clay courters. Serena Williams would have even played her pretty close on clay if she kept her 2002-2003 level, and clay is her worst surface by far even at her peak. Even when Evert faced a very weak clay court field in the 70s she atleast completely dominated it. Justine did not even completely dominate the weak clay court field of 2003-2007, losing alot of matches and nearly losing at the French atleast once every year except 2007. Both players in their primes Seles would pound Justine on clay most days.

Also there is no way Hingis is as great as Navratilova on clay. It is Martina's worst surface, but she still won 2 French Opens and was in 6 finals. Martina Hingis couldnt even win the French Open with Graf, Seles, Sanchez Vicario, Martinez all past their primes during her time as #1.

Serena is far superior to either Venus or Lindsay on clay too, yet her win % is worse. Serena compared to Lindsay on clay especialy, it isnt even close.

 

[CEvertFan]

Wow...Davenport at Number 9...never would have though that in my life, unless that includes green clay?

It includes all clay green and red.

 

[CEvertFan]

Which only goes to show how they cant be the only barometer. After all does anyone really believe Justine Henin is a greater clay courter than Monica Seles. Justin won 4 French Opens only because she was in an era with no other quality clay courters. Serena Williams would have even played her pretty close on clay if she kept her 2002-2003 level, and clay is her worst surface by far even at her peak. Even when Evert faced a very weak clay court field in the 70s she atleast completely dominated it. Justine did not even completely dominate the weak clay court field of 2003-2007, losing alot of matches and nearly losing at the French atleast once every year except 2007. Both players in their primes Seles would pound Justine on clay most days.

Also there is no way Hingis is as great as Navratilova on clay. It is Martina's worst surface, but she still won 2 French Opens and was in 6 finals. Martina Hingis couldnt even win the French Open with Graf, Seles, Sanchez Vicario, Martinez all past their primes during her time as #1.

Serena is far superior to either Venus or Lindsay on clay too, yet her win % is worse. Serena compared to Lindsay on clay especialy, it isnt even close.

It's only worse in the context that she doesn't play nearly as many tournaments as she should - both Williams sisters never have, which is part of their problem. Davenport usually played well on green clay but on the slower red clay she wasn't as good as Serena.

 

[boredone3456]

It includes all clay green and red.

Ahh ok. That clears it up a bit, because if that was just Red Clay based numbers I would seriously contend Davenport having a win percentage that high, but she had some good results on green clay over the years so it makes more sense now, thank you for clearing that up.

 

[grafselesfan]

It's only worse in the context that she doesn't play nearly as many tournaments as she should - both Williams sisters never have, which is part of their problem. Davenport usually played well on green clay but on the slower red clay she wasn't as good as Serena.

Yeah but surely you agree on the whole:

Seles > Henin on clay despite Henin with 1 more French AND apparently a higher winning % on clay

Navratilova > Hingis on clay

Serena > Davenport overall on clay

You are right that Davenport plays really well on green clay which is probably why her winning % is so high, despite usually not faring that well on red clay in Europe. Serena has some really good French Opens and tier 1 tournaments on red clay, but tanks alot of smaller events on clay too. Venus has alot of really good tier 1s on red clay, but unlike Serena hasnt done that well at the French except for once. I agree a big problem for the sisters is not playing more events, and of course playing more smaller events with less complete fields (assuming they take them seriously) would help their winning % presumably.

 

[CEvertFan]

Yeah but surely you agree on the whole:

Seles > Henin on clay despite Henin with 1 more French AND apparently a higher winning % on clay

Navratilova > Hingis on clay

Serena > Davenport overall on clay

You are right that Davenport plays really well on green clay which is probably why her winning % is so high, despite usually not faring that well on red clay in Europe. Serena has some really good French Opens and tier 1 tournaments on red clay, but tanks alot of smaller events on clay too. Venus has alot of really good tier 1s on red clay, but unlike Serena hasnt done that well at the French except for once. I agree a big problem for the sisters is not playing more events, and of course playing more smaller events with less complete fields (assuming they take them seriously) would help their winning % presumably.

I would have to agree with everything you just said.

 

[pmerk34]

I would have to agree with everything you just said.

The Williams sisters careers are still an open book as they have not played so much as to burn out or get seriously injured they may yet be effective another 6 years...

Evert is the best clay courter who ever lived.

 

[CEvertFan]

The Williams sisters careers are still an open book as they have not played so much as to burn out or get seriously injured they may yet be effective another 6 years...

Evert is the best clay courter who ever lived.

LOL you have got to be kidding right? Even without playing nearly as much as they should they have both had a boatload of injuries. If they had played more they would both be retired by now with career ending injuries.

Serena just lost a match to a nobody recently and the #1 ranking to Safina. I wouldn't call that effective I would call that INCONSISTENT. How are they going to add as much to their legacies ad they would need to in order to be considered one of the top 5 best ever? Never gonna happen.

 

[boredone3456]

The Williams sisters careers are still an open book as they have not played so much as to burn out or get seriously injured they may yet be effective another 6 years...

Evert is the best clay courter who ever lived.

Venus Still around at 35? yeah I really don't see that happening. I give her another 3 years. Serena at best another 5. Six years each at their current levels of fitness/commitment....I doubt it.

 

[pmerk34]

LOL you have got to be kidding right? Even without playing nearly as much as they should they have both had a boatload of injuries. If they had played more they would both be retired by now with career ending injuries.

Serena just lost a match to a nobody recently and the #1 ranking to Safina. I wouldn't call that effective I would call that INCONSISTENT. How are they going to add as much to their legacies ad they would need to in order to be considered one of the top 5 best ever? Never gonna happen.

Boatload of injuries? More like a boatload of pull out's due to claimed injuries. Goes on all the time. Who said they were ever going to be top 5 ever? They have both proven they can win a GS event at any time. Calm down.

 

[grafrules]

Venus is turning 29 this year. Her career is almost over. The only surface she has any shot of winning these days is her beloved grass, and the only reason she still has that to hang onto is their is absolutely nobody, other than Serena, who can still play worth a damn on grass. With her advancing age if some semi-decent talent on grass emerges she is toast. Venus has at most 1 more Wimbledon left in her, most likely she has already won her final slam.

Serena is a slightly different story. I could see her winning 3 or 4 more slams. That would probably put her somewhere around #8 all time. That is it though. She only has 8 more non French Opens to play before turning 30, and I dont see her winning slams at 30 or beyond either.

 

[CEvertFan]

Boatload of injuries? More like a boatload of pull out's due to claimed injuries. Goes on all the time. Who said they were ever going to be top 5 ever? They have both proven they can win a GS event at any time. Calm down.

My 66 year old aunt (who still plays tennis) could win a major against the current pathetic field. For Serena or even Venus to do it should be a no brainer, but I bet they won't win all of the remaining majors this year since Sharapova will be returning and Clijsters will be making her comeback and Safina might get it together enough to pull one off. It's all up to them though.

 

[grafselesfan]

The Williams sisters careers are still an open book as they have not played so much as to burn out or get seriously injured they may yet be effective another 6 years...

I was talking only about clay in that particular post. Regardless if the Williams have more future achievements on non-clay surfaces on clay they are done. They have done all they will ever do on clay. Venus is a joke on clay these days, she never was particularly great, but today she is a complete irrelevance on clay. The only real question for Venus is whether she will ever make it past the 3rd round of the French Open again. Serena can hang in more than Venus still can on clay but she isnt going to win another French.

As for being contenders another 6 years dream on. Venus has another year and a half as a contender on fast surfaces only and then she is done. She is already done on slow surfaces. Venus may continue to play but she wont be a contender even at Wimbledon or the U.S Open after that next year at the latest. If Navratilova the ultimate late bloomer was winning her final slams at 30, other than a final miracle Wimbledon at 33 only because she avoided playing Graf, then Venus sure as heck wont be winning slams past 30. Serena is a bit younger but already in gross physical shape and beat up with injuries so how long she has depends totally on how long the current field stays as awful as it is now. Once it improves even a bit she is done, since she will never be close to her old level of tennis.

 

[CyBorg]

Don't think it would have mattered to be honest.

Of course you don't.

 

[380pistol]

Evert dominated on Clay she is no 1 period. And yes Seles would have won those French Opens and Steffi knows it.

Didn't I say I'd gve it to Evert unless shown otherwise???

And as my baboon friend failed to realize, I never said Monica would or wouldn't have won the 1993, 95 and 96 French Opens that were won by Graf. I said she'd have a very good chance, but to definitively hand them to Monica is downright asinine. During Seles' dominance in 1991-92 they split the clay matches the played and Sels' vicory was 10-8 in the 3rd, so exactly does that constitue her going to RG those years and going 3 for 3 vs Graf?

I have not yet gotten and answer. It's not impossible, but it's also not a given, and that's what I'm saying, and that's what many Selesisians fail to realize.

 

[380pistol]

Just thought I would put out this is soley on clay courters. But your arguement stands up. Seles would have been great but to say she is GOAT when she had only won 3 French Opens..

gj011 (and others) have their heads so far up Monica's ass they can't see reason. From the jump I said Seles was among the greatest, (I had Evert #1), but don't know exactly where I'd have her cuz I don't know how her career would have played out if not for the stabbing.

These clowns have Seles winning everything under the sun post stabbing until they see fit when she stops wining, and anything else is ignoring the stabbing.

 

[grafselesfan]

gj011 (and others) have their heads so far up Monica's ass they can't see reason. From the jump I said Seles was among the greatest, (I had Evert #1), but don't know exactly where I'd have her cuz I don't know how her career would have played out if not for the stabbing.

These clowns have Seles winning everything under the sun post stabbing until they see fit when she stops wining, and anything else is ignoring the stabbing.

I just want to make clear I didnt say I believe Seles would have kept winning everything, even the French Open. I was only saying IF, and this was based on someone elses stance, Seles were really going to rise to such an untouchable level of tennis to win all those French Opens Graf's won- 1993, 1995, 1996, 1999, then she surely IMO would also win the 3 players much easier opponents for Seles won in this span- Sanchez 1994, Majoli 1997, Sanchez 1998. I dont believe Monica would have won all those French Open's Graf won though, in fact I believe Graf would have won atleast 2 of those 4 as I said, and as I dont think she would have carried out such an insane level all those years to deny Graf all 4 of hers it is possible someone like Sanchez also wins one. So it all becomes a moot hypothetical from my standpoint anyway. I was only talking under someone elses hypothetical that Monica were to play that insane of tennis that long that even Graf couldnt beat her at the French in any of those years.

 

[CEvertFan]

I'm definitely one of those people who think Graf benefitted from the absence of Seles but we need to be realistic - Seles wouldn't have won everything in sight from '93-'99 even if she hadn't been stabbed.

They would have had a great rivalry and both would have pushed the other to get even better and that would have been something to see. IMO theirs would have been the greatest rivalry since Navratilova/Evert if not for the knife in Seles' back.

 

[grafselesfan]

I'm definitely one of those people who think Graf benefitted from the absence of Seles but we need to be realistic - Seles wouldn't have won everything in sight from '93-'99 even if she hadn't been stabbed.

They would have had a great rivalry and both would have pushed the other to get even better and that would have been something to see. IMO theirs would have been the greatest rivalry since Navratilova/Evert if not for the knife in Seles' back.

Well I definitely wasnt talking about all events, just the French Open, and I was talking only under someone elses hypothetical, not my own as I said. I was only saying Graf would have stopped her at the French any of those years before Sanchez (great player who fared horribly vs Seles) or Majoli (fluke) ever would have. Anyway I have more than said my piece on that so moving on.

I agree they would have been the 2nd greatest rivalry ever since Navratilova/Evert. Not quite the greatest as it would have only stretched from 1989-1999 as opposed to Evert/Navratilova from 1974/1989, and they never would have played as many matches as they didnt play in many of the same non-slam events, but definitely the next best after that. King vs Court was a pretty good rivalry too though. Evert vs Goolagong actually was also.

 

[CEvertFan]

Well I definitely wasnt talking about all events, just the French Open, and I was talking only under someone elses hypothetical, not my own as I said. I was only saying Graf would have stopped her at the French any of those years before Sanchez (great player who fared horribly vs Seles) or Majoli (fluke) ever would have. Anyway I have more than said my piece on that so moving on.

I agree they would have been the 2nd greatest rivalry ever since Navratilova/Evert. Not quite the greatest as it would have only stretched from 1989-1999 as opposed to Evert/Navratilova from 1974/1989, and they never would have played as many matches as they didnt play in many of the same non-slam events, but definitely the next best after that. King vs Court was a pretty good rivalry too though. Evert vs Goolagong actually was also.

It wasn't meant for you specifically. More in general for those deluded people who actually think Monica would never have lost at all. Silliness.

 

[grafselesfan]

It wasn't meant for you specifically. More in general for those deluded people who actually think Monica would never have lost at all. Silliness.

Yeah I agree. I sort of think for the next almost 4 years Graf would have been by far her biggest obstacle/competition. Sanchez was more competition for Graf than Seles as Seles was just a bad matchup for her and she already had a mental block playing Monica. Novotna and Pierce are actually the two players who would have been the biggest dangers for Seles in draws other than Graf from 93-96 I think. Novotna in contrast to Sanchez is a bigger danger to Seles than Graf. Even pre stabbing when Jana wasnt in her prime yet she played Seles super tough in both their encounters, and she was dominant vs the post stabbing Seles for awhile, even on clay. Pierce is a danger to both Graf and Seles in events she in the zone like the 94 French or 95 Australian Open and capable of taking either out, but she very rarely finds that form, kind of like the female Safin. Martinez was no threat to beat Graf or Seles in a grand slam, but a major contender if she avoided both during the mid 90s. Fernandez you could say that about too. A past her prime Sabatini was still hanging around in the mid 90s but by now she was even getting owned by people like Conchita Martinez, and even in her prime failed all but once to beat Graf or Seles all but once in a slam.

Then in 97 alot of new players emerged and Graf, Seles, Sanchez all went through personal, health, or burnout issues of sorts so there probably would have been some degree of changing of the gaurd anyway, or atleast soon after.

I love Monica but she was not going to completely dominant the whole decade or even beyond, and I dont think that just because I am also a Graf fan. Even with the baggage and disadvantages from the horrible incident she would have fared alot better than she did in atleast the early years of her return if there was ever a chance that was in the cards. There were players by the late 90s that had emerged that were simply bad matchups for her, that was apparently even in her diminished state.

 

[380pistol]

I just want to make clear I didnt say I believe Seles would have kept winning everything, even the French Open. I was only saying IF, and this was based on someone elses stance, Seles were really going to rise to such an untouchable level of tennis to win all those French Opens Graf's won- 1993, 1995, 1996, 1999, then she surely IMO would also win the 3 players much easier opponents for Seles won in this span- Sanchez 1994, Majoli 1997, Sanchez 1998. I dont believe Monica would have won all those French Open's Graf won though, in fact I believe Graf would have won atleast 2 of those 4 as I said, and as I dont think she would have carried out such an insane level all those years to deny Graf all 4 of hers it is possible someone like Sanchez also wins one. So it all becomes a moot hypothetical from my standpoint anyway. I was only talking under someone elses hypothetical that Monica were to play that insane of tennis that long that even Graf couldnt beat her at the French in any of those years.

When I said "and others" it wasn't referring to you. It's just I don't know (nor do I care) to recall all the names of those clowns who have Seles winning everything under the sun had she not got stabbed.

 

[380pistol]

I'm definitely one of those people who think Graf benefitted from the absence of Seles but we need to be realistic - Seles wouldn't have won everything in sight from '93-'99 even if she hadn't been stabbed.

They would have had a great rivalry and both would have pushed the other to get even better and that would have been something to see. IMO theirs would have been the greatest rivalry since Navratilova/Evert if not for the knife in Seles' back.

I agree Graf benefitted from the stabbing. I've said it affected both Graf and Seles, and it did so in different ways.

The issue I have is mainly 3 things.....

1) As you said if not for the stabbing was Seles really going to win everything under the sun until some see fit?
2) Are we to assume that she is going to beat Graf every time they meet if not for the stabbing?
3) What about Steffi's issues, injuries, slams she missed etc. that don't get considered?

Could Monica have been the greatest female ever?? Maybe, I doubt it cuz I struggle to see her with a Wimbledon crown, but would she have finishe with more than 9 slams?? Of course. It would have great rivalry no question, and Monica would have accomplished more if not for the stabbing, some at the expense of Steffi. But let's not hand Seles the sun, the moon and the stats as some around here are doing.

 

[thalivest]

I actually meant to vote for Evert and clicked on Graf by accident. Anyway the poll options were put in the exact same order I see these women as greatest clay courters ever in:

1. Evert
2. Graf
3. Court
4. Lenglen
5. Connolly
6. Seles
7. Henin

Would be my 7 greatest clay courters in order. I actually sort of have a feeling if Graf and Evert were in their primes together Graf might have ended up with the winning head to head over Evert on clay, but of course that alone cant be the only determinent to who is the greatest clay courter ever even if that turned out true. Also it isnt a fact of any kind, just a guess or feeling of mine. Based on the combination of consistency, longevity, and dominance on the surface Evert is the clear #1 regardless on speculation how she might have fared vs some of them in their hypothetical mutual primes. I also have a feeling Connolly or Seles in their primes might have taken any of the others on clay in their primes, but again that is just a guess (well we actually saw some truth to that with Seles vs Graf). What kind of longevity or consistency they would have shown on clay over the long haul was never able to be seen.

I think Court is very underrated on clay. She won 5 French Opens during an era of alot of high quality clay courters like Ann Jones, Richey, Lesley Turner, and at the very end a young Goolagong and Evert. I am not sure how to rank Lenglen on clay. She was unbeatable on clay but faced no real competition, and even her usual main opponents who had no chance of beating her anyway were kept out of some of the closed French Opens as it was. She would have still beaten them of course but it made her already light competition even less than it already was.

I rate Henin as the bottom of the greats since her dominance while impressive was still less than the ones above her, her longevity wasnt amazing with the early retirement, her consistency is even suspect with the two years she didnt win during her clay court reign being horrible early round losses in 2002 and 2004, and her competition was very poor. The only tough competition on clay she ever faced was a prime Serena for a year or a two, and had to resort to trickery in her win over prime Serena at the French after her overrated mental toughness came into play with some mid match choking which cost her an early lead. I would add Clijsters except for her noted Henin-phobia and slam final/semi-phobia. Still with 4 French Opens in 5 years I still felt she deserved to be on the list, just at the bottom of it as the 7th greatest clay courter ever.

 

[CEvertFan]

Any of these polls are suspect. Henin has 6 votes as the best clay court player ever. *Shakes head*

 

[thalivest]

Any of these polls are suspect. Henin has 6 votes as the best clay court player ever. *Shakes head*

Like I said for me she is the 7th greatest clay courter ever, and even that is a borderline call for me. To me she would have fared poorly vs any of the other 6 women I listed above her on clay. They are all too powerful, too consistent, too athletic (minus Seles in this category), and too tough mentally (the most overrated part of Henin's game) for Henin even on clay. I actually listed her in the poll where I did as I put the poll in the order I would rank them in. I would not have included her at all and just included the other 6, if she wasnt so "recent" and my knowing people around here tend to be partial to more "recent" people.

 

[hoodjem]

Sure start with typos and spelling correction of an ESL speaker, when you have no more arguments. Typical.

You can troll all you want, but it still does not change the fact that 1993, 1995 and 1996 FO titles really belong to Seles and that Graf would never be considerer anything GOAT if there was no stabbing. Or stubbing if you prefer.

Sorry if it appeared that I was picking on you. It seemed appropriate to inject a little attempt at levity into a contentious and heated thread.

Please proofread before posting. I apologize.

I appreciate your crusade against the stabbing of tennis players. I do not condone what happened to Monica Seles. That said, I must base my opinions on the actual record books. Maybe the "1993, 1995 and 1996 FO titles really belong to Seles," but alas she did not win them.

Maybe she would have won them, if she had not been stabbed. Sorry.

 

[pmerk34]

One can't automatically give every major to Seles after the '93 AO. That's just silly. Would Graf have won less then her 22 majors if Seles had never been stabbed? Probably. Would Seles have won EVERY major until she was past her prime? I seriously don't think so, especially on fast grass or fast hardcourts. Graf was just too good of a player to make that even remotely plausible. What would have happened if Seles hadn't been stabbed was that the Graf/Seles rivalry would have really come into it's own and blossomed, which is really the thing I would have most liked to have seen.

For the record I don't think Seles would have broken Evert's record 7 French Opens even if she hadn't been stabbed. Even the great Graf couldn't do it, with the absence of Seles, although she's come the closest out of anyone since 1986.

All these woulda coulda shoulda threads are becoming a bit tiresome. Everyone has different opinions and are entitled to express them but there is also a lack of respect for opinions that differ from their own.

No one is automatically giving Seles EVERY major after the '93 AO but she sure as heck would have won some of the one Steffi Collected without her.


And lets break it down more. Steffi Graf had already been on the tour 10 full years by the end 1993. As a result of this lunacy she was starting to suffer serious injuries. She wasn't a young 23 year old in tennis terms. And she was not getting better btw. With Seles around she was never going to be the 87-89 Graf again. Without her around, well we saw what she did.

Seles was only 19 when she was stabbed and more importantly had only been on the tour for about 5 years. She was not injured. She was getting better. She was the clear world number one and dominating the tour. She had her whole career in front of her.

 

[CEvertFan]

No one is automatically giving Seles EVERY major after the '93 AO but she sure as heck would have won some of the one Steffi Collected without her.


And lets break it down more. Steffi Graf had already been on the tour 10 full years by the end 1993. As a result of this lunacy she was starting to suffer serious injuries. She wasn't a young 23 year old in tennis terms. And she was not getting better btw. With Seles around she was never going to be the 87-89 Graf again. Without her around, well we saw what she did.

Seles was only 19 when she was stabbed and more importantly had only been on the tour for about 5 years. She was not injured. She was getting better. She was the clear world number one and dominating the tour. She had her whole career in front of her.

I didn't mean specifically you but there have been more than a few people who have said that Seles would have won everything had it not been for the stabbing.

Also, if you read my entire post I did say that Graf would have won less majors had Seles not been stabbed.

 

[LDVTennis]

And lets break it down more. Steffi Graf had already been on the tour 10 full years by the end 1993. As a result of this lunacy she was starting to suffer serious injuries. She wasn't a young 23 year old in tennis terms. And she was not getting better btw. With Seles around she was never going to be the 87-89 Graf again. Without her around, well we saw what she did.

Seles was only 19 when she was stabbed and more importantly had only been on the tour for about 5 years. She was not injured. She was getting better. She was the clear world number one and dominating the tour. She had her whole career in front of her.

Graf did get better. Steffi didn't think '88 and '89 were her peak years. She thought she was a much better player in '95 and '96. And, she was.

With those grips and such limited athleticism, Seles was not going to get much better. Do you honestly believe we were going to see her serve and volley on grass by 1996?

From 1991 to 1993, Seles dominated the tour. She did not dominate Steffi Graf. Graf had a winning record against Seles while Seles was No. 1.

Seles was not the clear No. 1. Steffi had a chance to overtake Seles in the rankings by the time of the French Open in 1993. Had she won the French, Steffi would most definitely have been the No. 1 player in the world again.

 

[pmerk34]

Graf did get better. Steffi didn't think '88 and '89 were her peak years. She thought she was a much better player in '95 and '96. And, she was.

With those grips and such limited athleticism, Seles was not going to get much better. Do you honestly believe we were going to see her serve and volley on grass by 1996?

From 1991 to 1993, Seles dominated the tour. She did not dominate Steffi Graf. Graf had a winning record against Seles while Seles was No. 1.

Seles was not the clear No. 1. Steffi had a chance to overtake Seles in the rankings by the time of the French Open in 1993. Had she won the French, Steffi would most definitely have been the No. 1 player in the world again.

Seles has beaten her in 3-4 GS finals they played. ANd while Graf had beaten her at other events 3-4 GS is a huge thing. Seles's "grips" which you disparage produced murderous angles and she took the ball so early and hit it so hard that except on grass she controlled much of the action against Graf simply due to the fact that Graf's slice backhand gave Seles time to regain her positioning on any surface except grass which was lightening quick back then. Graf may have the best woman's backhand slice ever and it gave other players fits. Not Seles, who was such a talented ball striker she simply went down and blasted it. Seles was the only player then who could pressure Steffi to beat her, outslug her, out work her. I saw no evidence at the time of the stabbing that Steffi had figured anything out to beat her in the GS events - aside from Wimby. The French Final was epic but she still lost. Monica would have been the clear favorite going into the French that year as well to win her 4th straight. But of course Graf won it over a player without half the power and tenacity of Seles, although Mary Jo did have twice the good looks. And Graf beat Sanchez Vicario in a few other French Finals. Seles owned Sanchez. Although post stabbing she did beat her in a French final, but then a lot of players who couldn't touch her before had some success after she was damaged goods.

Günter Parche may have fooled some of us but not me.

Which is why Günter Parche chose to take her out to save his beloved Steffis legacy which was being taken away by a teenager. Which is why he didn't stab Sanchez or Sabitini.

 

[Lionheart392]

Seles has beaten her in 3-4 GS finals they played. ANd while Graf had beaten her at other events 3-4 GS is a huge thing. Seles's "grips" which you disparage produced murderous angles and she took the ball so early and hit it so hard that except on grass she controlled much of the action against Graf simply due to the fact that Graf's slice backhand gave Seles time to regain her positioning on any surface except grass which was lightening quick back then. Graf may have the best woman's backhand slice ever and it gave other players fits. Not Seles, who was such a talented ball striker she simply went down and blasted it. Seles was the only player then who could pressure Steffi to beat her, outslug her, out work her. I saw no evidence at the time of the stabbing that Steffi had figured anything out to beat her in the GS events - aside from Wimby. The French Final was epic but she still lost. Monica would have been the clear favorite going into the French that year as well to win her 4th straight. But of course Graf won it over a player without half the power and tenacity of Seles, although Mary Jo did have twice the good looks. And Graf beat Sanchez Vicario in a few other French Finals. Seles owned Sanchez. Although post stabbing she did beat her in a French final, but then a lot of players who couldn't touch her before had some success after she was damaged goods.

Günter Parche may have fooled some of us but not me.

Which is why Günter Parche chose to take her out to save his beloved Steffis legacy which was being taken away by a teenager. Which is why he didn't stab Sanchez or Sabitini.

I don't think anyone is denying that Seles would've had a great chance if she played the 1993 FO. However, the fact that she beat Graf in 1992 by the narrowest of margins hardly shows that Seles would have definitely beaten her had they played there in 93. Thus I'm sure no one has a problem with people saying that Monica would have been the favourite for that tournament, but automatically handing it to her on a plate is completely different.

 

[pmerk34]

I don't think anyone is denying that Seles would've had a great chance if she played the 1993 FO. However, the fact that she beat Graf in 1992 by the narrowest of margins hardly shows that Seles would have definitely beaten her had they played there in 93. Thus I'm sure no one has a problem with people saying that Monica would have been the favorite for that tournament, but automatically handing it to her on a plate is completely different.

Graf wasn't a better clay court player than Seles. But people blindly hand it to her anyway on a silver platter.

 

[Arafel]

Seles has beaten her in 3-4 GS finals they played. ANd while Graf had beaten her at other events 3-4 GS is a huge thing. Seles's "grips" which you disparage produced murderous angles and she took the ball so early and hit it so hard that except on grass she controlled much of the action against Graf simply due to the fact that Graf's slice backhand gave Seles time to regain her positioning on any surface except grass which was lightening quick back then. Graf may have the best woman's backhand slice ever and it gave other players fits. Not Seles, who was such a talented ball striker she simply went down and blasted it. Seles was the only player then who could pressure Steffi to beat her, outslug her, out work her. I saw no evidence at the time of the stabbing that Steffi had figured anything out to beat her in the GS events - aside from Wimby. The French Final was epic but she still lost. Monica would have been the clear favorite going into the French that year as well to win her 4th straight. But of course Graf won it over a player without half the power and tenacity of Seles, although Mary Jo did have twice the good looks. And Graf beat Sanchez Vicario in a few other French Finals. Seles owned Sanchez. Although post stabbing she did beat her in a French final, but then a lot of players who couldn't touch her before had some success after she was damaged goods.

Günter Parche may have fooled some of us but not me.

Which is why Günter Parche chose to take her out to save his beloved Steffis legacy which was being taken away by a teenager. Which is why he didn't stab Sanchez or Sabitini.

I disagree. I watched clips from their 93 Australian final and what I took from that match is that Steffi dictated the play. I was surprised to see how often Seles was put on the defensive, running side to side, trying to get the ball back. Seles ultimately outsteadied Graf, but Steffi was the agressor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Shy...67946FB5&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=14

Watch this clip.

 

[CEvertFan]

I disagree. I watched clips from their 93 Australian final and what I took from that match is that Steffi dictated the play. I was surprised to see how often Seles was put on the defensive, running side to side, trying to get the ball back. Seles ultimately outsteadied Graf, but Steffi was the agressor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Shy...67946FB5&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=14

Watch this clip.

I've seen the entire match and what I got from it was that even though Graf tried to be the aggressor and outplayed Seles in the first set (Monica looked nervous and was making a lot of UEs), ultimately Seles started playing better and started working over the Graf backhand big time, which is why she won the last two sets rather easily. One of the few ways to beat Graf was to overwhelm the backhand with power, something very few women could do. Monica was one of those who could, and did. If allowed to use her forehand, Graf was always going to dictate play, no matter who she played.

Incidentally, the other most successful way to beat Steffi was the way Sanchez-Vicario played her. Get everything back until Graf became impatient and started making errors. Both ways were easier said than done though.

 

[grafrules]

I've seen the entire match and what I got from it was that even though Graf tried to be the aggressor and outplayed Seles in the first set (Monica looked nervous and was making a lot of UEs), ultimately Seles started playing better and started working over the Graf backhand big time, which is why she won the last two sets rather easily. One of the few ways to beat Graf was to overwhelm the backhand with power, something very few women could do. Monica was one of those who could, and did. If allowed to use her forehand, Graf was always going to dictate play, no matter who she played.

Incidentally, the other most successful way to beat Steffi was the way Sanchez-Vicario played her. Get everything back until Graf became impatient and started making errors. Both ways were easier said than done though.

I think that is a good accessment. It is probably why Seles and Sanchez were the only two players of her generation to really give Graf problems.

On another note it is a joke Henin had 7 votes. She is a great clay courter but not the greatest ever by any stretch. If she had continued and had surprisingly good longevity (considering all her injury and viral problems) than maybe, but as it is not even close. She doesnt even approach the #s of the top clay courters ever, even facing a very weak clay court field. The Williams were never at their best on clay even in their primes, and the others as far as competition for Henin on clay (in most cases of the non Williams on any surface in fact) forget it.

 

[thetaxman]

Graf, for me...

 

[pmerk34]

I think that is a good accessment. It is probably why Seles and Sanchez were the only two players of her generation to really give Graf problems.

On another note it is a joke Henin had 7 votes. She is a great clay courter but not the greatest ever by any stretch. If she had continued and had surprisingly good longevity (considering all her injury and viral problems) than maybe, but as it is not even close. She doesnt even approach the #s of the top clay courters ever, even facing a very weak clay court field. The Williams were never at their best on clay even in their primes, and the others as far as competition for Henin on clay (in most cases of the non Williams on any surface in fact) forget it.

No Navratilova on the list either...

 

[BTURNER]

"Incidentally, the other most successful way to beat Steffi was the way Sanchez-Vicario played her. Get everything back until Graf became impatient and started making errors. Both ways were easier said than done though."

Well, Sanchez is the only human I saw do it that way successfully because she was the only human quick enough and having the defensive skills and depth to get away with it and it only worked when Graf was off her A game. I give Sanchez barrels of credit but I sure wouldn't recommend others try it. Coetzer came close to succeeding too. Sanchez was the very best defensive baseliner I ever saw. incredible gets and defensive lobs/ chop forehands each within a foot of the baseline. One lob, two lobs, four lobs all perfectly placed despite her desperate straights, until that error came.