Greatest female clay courter ever

[pmerk34]

I've seen the entire match and what I got from it was that even though Graf tried to be the aggressor and outplayed Seles in the first set (Monica looked nervous and was making a lot of UEs), ultimately Seles started playing better and started working over the Graf backhand big time, which is why she won the last two sets rather easily. One of the few ways to beat Graf was to overwhelm the backhand with power, something very few women could do. Monica was one of those who could, and did. If allowed to use her forehand, Graf was always going to dictate play, no matter who she played.

Incidentally, the other most successful way to beat Steffi was the way Sanchez-Vicario played her. Get everything back until Graf became impatient and started making errors. Both ways were easier said than done though.

This quote sums it all up for me

1993 Australian Open Final

Mary Carillo: "[Steffi's] actually playing better than when she played in '88 and won the Grand Slam. Everyone acts as though 'Well, you know, she's got to get it back, she's got to get it back.' I actually feel that Steffi has added a lot to her game. She's a better defensive player. She's got a better first serve than she used to. I think her slice backhand really works well. I mean, I happen to think that she's a better player than she was a few years ago, but she's facing an opponent that is just remarkable, and I think that's why she doesn't have the Grand Slams titles we're used to seeing from her."

 

[thalivest]

Now even quoting Mary Carillo of all people to try and prove your baseless arguments. You Selestials are something else (well good comedy value for one thing).

 

[thalivest]

No Navratilova on the list either...

Yeah since a 2 time French Open winner really belongs on a poll for greatest clay courter ever, LOL!
I guess Ann Jones, Lesley Turner, and Doris Hart should have also been on the poll too then. Well before Martina actually since those fellow 2 time French Open winners even showed slightly more consistency and longevity on clay than Martina did.

 

[flying24]

No Navratilova on the list either...

Probably because there wasnt 20 poll options allowed. Which is the only way she would merit an inclusion.

 

[pmerk34]

Yeah since a 2 time French Open winner really belongs on a poll for greatest clay courter ever, LOL!
I guess Ann Jones, Lesley Turner, and Doris Hart should have also been on the poll too then. Well before Martina actually since those fellow 2 time French Open winners even showed slightly more consistency and longevity on clay than Martina did.

You are a waste of posting space. Get a life.

 

[pmerk34]

Now even quoting Mary Carillo of all people to try and prove your baseless arguments. You Selestials are something else (well good comedy value for one thing).

Now you can go back to Steffi worship. Tell us again about all the hype surrounding James Blake. You're a winner.

 

[pmerk34]

Probably because there wasnt 20 poll options allowed. Which is the only way she would merit an inclusion.

Considering she won 2 French Opens, and was a runner up 4 times losing to people name Evert and Graf I would place her above Henin and Court.

 

[thalivest]

You are a waste of posting space. Get a life.

Talking to yourself again. That is a common habit for the mentally ******** such as yourself, but just a friendly hint, it is best to do it in your bedroom, or your cubicle at the psych ward you surely reside at rather than on a public forum on a computer. Thanks.

 

[CEvertFan]

"Incidentally, the other most successful way to beat Steffi was the way Sanchez-Vicario played her. Get everything back until Graf became impatient and started making errors. Both ways were easier said than done though."

Well, Sanchez is the only human I saw do it that way successfully because she was the only human quick enough and having the defensive skills and depth to get away with it and it only worked when Graf was off her A game. I give Sanchez barrels of credit but I sure wouldn't recommend others try it. Coetzer came close to succeeding too. Sanchez was the very best defensive baseliner I ever saw. incredible gets and defensive lobs/ chop forehands each within a foot of the baseline. One lob, two lobs, four lobs all perfectly placed despite her desperate straights, until that error came.

LOL I never said it was an easy thing to do, or that it worked for Sanchez-Vicario all the time but it was amazing to watch when it did. Like you said, Arantxa was the best defensive baseliner I ever saw and almost as fast as Graf and she would get to balls you never thought she would. Incredible gets from the spunky Spaniard.

 

[egn]

Considering she won 2 French Opens, and was a runner up 4 times losing to people name Evert and Graf I would place her above Henin and Court.

Court who won 5? I mean you want to try to make a case for Henin fine but ahead of Court..

 

[pmerk34]

Talking to yourself again. That is a common habit for the mentally ******** such as yourself, but just a friendly hint, it is best to do it in your bedroom, or your cubicle at the psych ward you surely reside at rather than on a public forum on a computer. Thanks.

You are such a loser. Post something meaningful again - oh wait you never have. Tell us again how much hype Blake gets in America.

 

[CEvertFan]

Court who won 5? I mean you want to try to make a case for Henin fine but ahead of Court..

I agree Court > Navratilova on clay, even taking into account who she lost to in those RU finishes at the FO.

 

[flying24]

Considering she won 2 French Opens, and was a runner up 4 times losing to people name Evert and Graf I would place her above Henin and Court.

Get real. Court won 5 French Opens and beat Evert in a French Open final at 31 years old. If you wish you could do a hypothetical Navratilova would have won 5 French Opens without Evert. However the 1975 would have been a complete joke in a nothing field in a year the French wasnt important with any people who were likely to beat her on clay or any surface at that point in time (eg-Goolagong) not there. The clay court field Martina would have been left facing without Evert around would have been a joke and nowhere near what Court faced. Court faced Nancy Richey, Mario Bueno, Lesley Turner (clay court specialist), and Ann Jones (clay courter who was still good enough to win Wimbledon) at the French over the years. Martina only would have faced Mandlikova and a young Graf for a year or two.

Martina had a relatively short period of near prime play which lasted only about 6 years and during it she still managed to lose to both Sylvia Hanika and Kathy Horvath at the French Open. Court with a 13 year period of near prime play only had one such embarassing loss at the French in 1971. After 1975 good performances vs a depleted clay court field Martina had a giant hole of 7 years she did nothing on clay, and even avoided playing tournaments on it, until 1982.

As for Henin, she retires at 25 and still wins double the French Opens Martina did. That is all that needs to be said.

 

[flying24]

This quote sums it all up for me

1993 Australian Open Final

Mary Carillo: "[Steffi's] actually playing better than when she played in '88 and won the Grand Slam. Everyone acts as though 'Well, you know, she's got to get it back, she's got to get it back.' I actually feel that Steffi has added a lot to her game. She's a better defensive player. She's got a better first serve than she used to. I think her slice backhand really works well. I mean, I happen to think that she's a better player than she was a few years ago, but she's facing an opponent that is just remarkable, and I think that's why she doesn't have the Grand Slams titles we're used to seeing from her."

Mary Carillo saying something should already serve as ample reason to render it void. If you trusted her wisdom Venus and Serena would be playing in the French Open final every year, Coria beating an old Agassi on clay would be the equivalent to Chris Lewis having beaten John McEnroe in a Wimbledon final, and Mirijana Lucic was going to be the more likely next phenom of tennis over Hingis, Venus, and Serena.

For the record here are Graf's head to heads with non-Seles opponents from start of 1987 to mid May 1990, from mid May 1990 to mid May 1993, and from June 1993-end of 1996:

Graf vs Sabatini: 15-3 from start of 1997 to mid May 1990, 6-8 from mid May 1990-mid May 1993, 5-0 vs Sabatini from mid May 1993-end of 1996

Graf vs Novotna: 7-0 from start of 1987 to mid May 1990, 9-3 from mid May 1990-mid May 1993, 10-1 from mid May 1993 to end of 1996. Graf's only loss ever Nototna other than the THREE 1991-1992 losses was by retiring after the first set due to injury in a match.

Graf vs Sanchez: 6-1 start of 1989 to mid May 1990, 13-4 from mid May 1990-mid May 1993, 8-3 from mid May 1993-end of 1996.

Graf vs Navratlova: 6-2 from start of 1987 to mid May 1990, 1-2 vs mid May 1990-mid May 1993.

Wow isnt it amazing how Sabatini and Novotna were all mysteriously playing so much better during the early 90s than they would anytime before or after. I mean they had to in order to be way more successful vs a Graf "playing better than ever" in the early 90s, who supposably would not improve any further as well. This despite that Novotna began having her best results by far in the mid to late 90s to boot. Isnt it also truly amazing how Martina suddenly began doing alot better vs Graf in her mid 30s than she had vs even a teenaged Graf when Martina was alot younger.

To put some things into perspective Novotna had the best accomplishments of her whole career in 1998 and yet still went 0-2 vs a Graf who was so injured that season she only played 2 of the 4 slams and had losses to Serna Appelmans, Kournikova, Sugiyama, in limited tournament play. She then lost her final ever match with Graf in their mutual final year on tour (a career which for Jana ended in a flurry and for Graf with a sputter) with a 6-2, 6-0 spanking. So despite that Jana lost all 20 of their matches that were not in the mid 1990-mid 1993 time span, and while having the best years of her career at the very end of the decade still went 0-3 vs an injured Graf who was losing to journeywomen, Jana still amazingly managed 3 wins vs a Graf "playing better than ever before" during the early 90s. Fascinating indeed.

Also incredible how Navratilova from age 30-32 fared much worse vs Graf in the late 80s than Navratilova from ages 34-36 would fare vs the Graf "playing better than ever" in the early 90s. That must have been some amazing transfusion of energy the aging Martina got, like something you see in a Sci Fi film perhaps Even more amazing Martina even while still in her prime in 1986 and 1987 would have a worse W-L ratio vs a 16 and 17 year old Graf than Martina aged 34-36 would have vs a Graf "playing better than ever".

The one exception to all this is Sanchez Vicario who mantained a quite similar head to head in the early to mid 90s. However one must delve a little deeper. From mid 1990 to mid 1993 Sanchez beat Graf in straight sets on 3 different occasions. After mid 1993 or before mid 1990 Sanchez would never win a match with Graf in straight sets. One of those straight set wins included a 6-2, 6-0 thumping for Sanchez Vicario, while the best she would fare in any other time period vs Graf would be winning 6-4 in the 3rd set. Sanchez also never beat a healthy Graf on a non-clay surface any other span other than mid 1990 to mid 1993 (Graf had a serious back injury aggravated while leading midway through the 1994 Canadian and U.S Open finals). Yet in 1992 and early 1993 she twice beat a fully healthy Graf on hard courts, and in 1992 did so in straight sets, interestingly her only ever straight sets win over Graf on hard courts, something she couldnt even manage on clay at any point outside the mid 1990 to mid 1993 time span.

Monica Seles was certainly not the one that caused Steffi to be struggling so much that she lost before the finals of 9 of the 12 biggest tournaments played in 1991 and 1992. Last I checked Seles was not on court when Graf was losing 6-0, 6-2 to Sanchez Vicario in a French Open semifinal, losing to Zina Garrison at Wimbledon, losing to Jana Novotna on slow hard courts at the Australian Open, lost to a 34 year old Navratilova in a U.S Open semifinal, lost in straight sets to Sanchez on fast hard courts in a U.S Open quarterfinal. You will have to enlighten me further to how Seles was the one that caused Graf to be losing at any of these tournaments in such embarassing manners.

Anyway it looks like there are stats that support a theory that Graf indeed was NOT playing particularly well at all for her standards those 3 years, let alone "better than ever", at a level higher than ever before and which she would improve no further on either (according to many of your recent comments). You counter that by having Mary Carillo on your side. Errr ok.

 

[LDVTennis]

Seles has beaten her in 3-4 GS finals they played. ANd while Graf had beaten her at other events 3-4 GS is a huge thing. Seles's "grips" which you disparage produced murderous angles and she took the ball so early and hit it so hard that except on grass she controlled much of the action against Graf simply due to the fact that Graf's slice backhand gave Seles time to regain her positioning on any surface except grass which was lightening quick back then. Graf may have the best woman's backhand slice ever and it gave other players fits. Not Seles, who was such a talented ball striker she simply went down and blasted it. Seles was the only player then who could pressure Steffi to beat her, outslug her, out work her. I saw no evidence at the time of the stabbing that Steffi had figured anything out to beat her in the GS events - aside from Wimby. The French Final was epic but she still lost. Monica would have been the clear favorite going into the French that year as well to win her 4th straight. But of course Graf won it over a player without half the power and tenacity of Seles, although Mary Jo did have twice the good looks. And Graf beat Sanchez Vicario in a few other French Finals. Seles owned Sanchez. Although post stabbing she did beat her in a French final, but then a lot of players who couldn't touch her before had some success after she was damaged goods.

Günter Parche may have fooled some of us but not me.

Which is why Günter Parche chose to take her out to save his beloved Steffis legacy which was being taken away by a teenager. Which is why he didn't stab Sanchez or Sabitini.

She didn't hit those angles on every shot. Most of the shots she hit were of the loop variety. She also didn't beat the cover off the ball on every shot. Her matches are on the internet. See the '92 US Open Final. See for yourself. Monica even resorts to moonballing of all people Sanchez-Vicario. What a hoot!

Monica's strategy against Steffi was like everyone else's strategy against Steffi. She directed every ball back to Steffi's backhand to thwart her forehand game. From '90 to 93, this pattern worked against Steffi because Steffi's game had become quite predictable and inconsistent. Look analytically at that 1992 French Open Final. How did Steffi lose most of the points in the first set, with unforced errors or winners against her?

Is that how Steffi played at her first peak in '88 or '89 on clay. No. See her '88 French Final. That's how Steffi played on clay. Not convinced. Look at the best match from her second peak period, the '96 French Final. Still, not convinced. Look at the second to the last match Steffi ever played on clay as a pro, the '99 French Open Semi. What could be a better example? The opponent is Seles. Seles plays the same style of tennis she played in '92. But, does Graf? Not even close.

Why do I feel that you've never even seen that match? Everything you need to know about how Seles played Graf is in that match; so, is everything that Graf had to do beat Seles. Graf never had to outslug Seles to beat her. That wasn't the strategy to beat Seles. The strategy was to play her like Hingis did. Graf's mistake from '90 to '92 against Seles was that she did try to outslug Seles and got conned into making all kind of unforced errors. By '99, Steffi had figured out the con and turned the tables on Seles. Make Seles play the point from all areas of the court, use the slice backhand down the line instead of crosscourt, go inside-in as much as inside out and watch as Seles wilts under the pressure of having to defend the entire court. It worked in '99 and it would have worked in '92.

As to your appeals to Parche, what's that about? You make Parche out to be some kind of Svengali-like figure with vast historical powers of deception. He wasn't that powerful. He stabbed a tennis player, he didn't order the Holocaust. Get a grip!

 

[pmerk34]

She didn't hit those angles on every shot. Most of the shots she hit were of the loop variety. She also didn't beat the cover off the ball on every shot. Her matches are on the internet. See the '92 US Open Final. See for yourself. Monica even resorts to moonballing of all people Sanchez-Vicario. What a hoot!

Monica's strategy against Steffi was like everyone else's strategy against Steffi. She directed every ball back to Steffi's backhand to thwart her forehand game. From '90 to 93, this pattern worked against Steffi because Steffi's game had become quite predictable and inconsistent. Look analytically at that 1992 French Open Final. How did Steffi lose most of the points in the first set, with unforced errors or winners against her?

Is that how Steffi played at her first peak in '88 or '89 on clay. No. See her '88 French Final. That's how Steffi played on clay. Not convinced. Look at the best match from her second peak period, the '96 French Final. Still, not convinced. Look at the second to the last match Steffi ever played on clay as a pro, the '99 French Open Semi. What could be a better example? The opponent is Seles. Seles plays the same style of tennis she played in '92. But, does Graf? Not even close.

Why do I feel that you've never even seen that match? Everything you need to know about how Seles played Graf is in that match; so, is everything that Graf had to do beat Seles. Graf never had to outslug Seles to beat her. That wasn't the strategy to beat Seles. The strategy was to play her like Hingis did. Graf's mistake from '90 to '92 against Seles was that she did try to outslug Seles and got conned into making all kind of unforced errors. By '99, Steffi had figured out the con and turned the tables on Seles. Make Seles play the point from all areas of the court, use the slice backhand down the line instead of crosscourt, go inside-in as much as inside out and watch as Seles wilts under the pressure of having to defend the entire court. It worked in '99 and it would have worked in '92.

As to your appeals to Parche, what's that about? You make Parche out to be some kind of Svengali-like figure with vast historical powers of deception. He wasn't that powerful. He stabbed a tennis player, he didn't order the Holocaust. Get a grip!

I disagree entirely with your post. However I respect your opinion.

 

[ttwarrior1]

i didnt read the posts, but after not seeing sanchez vicario not on the list i had to say something

 

[anointedone]

Court who won 5? I mean you want to try to make a case for Henin fine but ahead of Court..

Anyone (even one of the troll variety) finding any argument to rank Navratilova above Court on clay is only further proof how extremely underrated Court is on this forum.

 

[egn]

Mary Carillo saying something should already serve as ample reason to render it void. If you trusted her wisdom Venus and Serena would be playing in the French Open final every year, Coria beating an old Agassi on clay would be the equivalent to Chris Lewis having beaten John McEnroe in a Wimbledon final, and Mirijana Lucic was going to be the more likely next phenom of tennis over Hingis, Venus, and Serena.

For the record here are Graf's head to heads with non-Seles opponents from start of 1987 to mid May 1990, from mid May 1990 to mid May 1993, and from June 1993-end of 1996:

Graf vs Sabatini: 15-3 from start of 1997 to mid May 1990, 6-8 from mid May 1990-mid May 1993, 5-0 vs Sabatini from mid May 1993-end of 1996

Graf vs Novotna: 7-0 from start of 1987 to mid May 1990, 9-3 from mid May 1990-mid May 1993, 10-1 from mid May 1993 to end of 1996. Graf's only loss ever Nototna other than the THREE 1991-1992 losses was by retiring after the first set due to injury in a match.

Graf vs Sanchez: 6-1 start of 1989 to mid May 1990, 13-4 from mid May 1990-mid May 1993, 8-3 from mid May 1993-end of 1996.

Graf vs Navratlova: 6-2 from start of 1987 to mid May 1990, 1-2 vs mid May 1990-mid May 1993.

Wow isnt it amazing how Sabatini and Novotna were all mysteriously playing so much better during the early 90s than they would anytime before or after. I mean they had to in order to be way more successful vs a Graf "playing better than ever" in the early 90s, who supposably would not improve any further as well. This despite that Novotna began having her best results by far in the mid to late 90s to boot. Isnt it also truly amazing how Martina suddenly began doing alot better vs Graf in her mid 30s than she had vs even a teenaged Graf when Martina was alot younger.

To put some things into perspective Novotna had the best accomplishments of her whole career in 1998 and yet still went 0-2 vs a Graf who was so injured that season she only played 2 of the 4 slams and had losses to Serna Appelmans, Kournikova, Sugiyama, in limited tournament play. She then lost her final ever match with Graf in their mutual final year on tour (a career which for Jana ended in a flurry and for Graf with a sputter) with a 6-2, 6-0 spanking. So despite that Jana lost all 20 of their matches that were not in the mid 1990-mid 1993 time span, and while having the best years of her career at the very end of the decade still went 0-3 vs an injured Graf who was losing to journeywomen, Jana still amazingly managed 3 wins vs a Graf "playing better than ever before" during the early 90s. Fascinating indeed.

Also incredible how Navratilova from age 30-32 fared much worse vs Graf in the late 80s than Navratilova from ages 34-36 would fare vs the Graf "playing better than ever" in the early 90s. That must have been some amazing transfusion of energy the aging Martina got, like something you see in a Sci Fi film perhaps Even more amazing Martina even while still in her prime in 1986 and 1987 would have a worse W-L ratio vs a 16 and 17 year old Graf than Martina aged 34-36 would have vs a Graf "playing better than ever".

The one exception to all this is Sanchez Vicario who mantained a quite similar head to head in the early to mid 90s. However one must delve a little deeper. From mid 1990 to mid 1993 Sanchez beat Graf in straight sets on 3 different occasions. After mid 1993 or before mid 1990 Sanchez would never win a match with Graf in straight sets. One of those straight set wins included a 6-2, 6-0 thumping for Sanchez Vicario, while the best she would fare in any other time period vs Graf would be winning 6-4 in the 3rd set. Sanchez also never beat a healthy Graf on a non-clay surface any other span other than mid 1990 to mid 1993 (Graf had a serious back injury aggravated while leading midway through the 1994 Canadian and U.S Open finals). Yet in 1992 and early 1993 she twice beat a fully healthy Graf on hard courts, and in 1992 did so in straight sets, interestingly her only ever straight sets win over Graf on hard courts, something she couldnt even manage on clay at any point outside the mid 1990 to mid 1993 time span.

Monica Seles was certainly not the one that caused Steffi to be struggling so much that she lost before the finals of 9 of the 12 biggest tournaments played in 1991 and 1992. Last I checked Seles was not on court when Graf was losing 6-0, 6-2 to Sanchez Vicario in a French Open semifinal, losing to Zina Garrison at Wimbledon, losing to Jana Novotna on slow hard courts at the Australian Open, lost to a 34 year old Navratilova in a U.S Open semifinal, lost in straight sets to Sanchez on fast hard courts in a U.S Open quarterfinal. You will have to enlighten me further to how Seles was the one that caused Graf to be losing at any of these tournaments in such embarassing manners.

Anyway it looks like there are stats that support a theory that Graf indeed was NOT playing particularly well at all for her standards those 3 years, let alone "better than ever", at a level higher than ever before and which she would improve no further on either (according to many of your recent comments). You counter that by having Mary Carillo on your side. Errr ok.

She playing "better than ever" for everyone else.

Brilliant post flying Seles was doing the least damage to Graf over that period. The rest of the field was more of a threat to her.

 

[LDVTennis]

She then lost her final ever match with Graf in their mutual final year on tour (a career which for Jana ended in a flurry and for Graf with a sputter) with a 6-2, 6-0 spanking.

I was at this match (IW 99). It took about 30 minutes to play. It went something like this when Steffi was serving --- serve, return, forehand winner. When Jana was serving, it went something like this --- serve/forehand return winner or serve, return, slice to Steffi's backhand, inside-out/inside-in forehand winner.

I never thought I'd see Steffi play again like she did from '88 to '89. It was a different Steffi, not necessarily a better Steffi. The '95 to '96 Steffi is better; the '88 and '89 Steffi was just a phenomenon. By the French Open that year, Steffi was back playing her '96-style of tennis. So, it's almost like she revisted her entire career that year from IW in March to the French Open in May/June.

Funny story about that match. As I said, it took only 30 minutes to play. So, more people were waiting to file into the stadium when it ended than were filing out of the stadium. It was the last match of the day session and the tournament staff cleared the stadium quite quickly.

People had lingered because Steffi hadn't left the court. As soon as the stadium was cleared, she began practicing, hitting the ball with Heinz, her coach. So, you have this huge crowd, a mixture of day and night session patrons crowding the upper pavilion alleys which in the Grand Champion days gave you a view onto the court. Numerous people asked if they could watch her practice. The answer was no. One man asked, How much?, meaning how much to watch her practice. The staffperson smiled and said, No.

 

[flying24]

She playing "better than ever" for everyone else.

Brilliant post flying Seles was doing the least damage to Graf over that period. The rest of the field was more of a threat to her.

Thank you. Dont get me wrong, I am not suggesting by any means Graf was just going to start walking all over Monica. Monica is of course a great player in her own right and would remain a tough opponent for Graf.

However the idea that anyone would say those few years Graf was playing "better than ever" or Graf's play did not improve from the point Seles was stabbed is simply nonsense. As someone who followed Graf's career closely such a statement made by Carillo around the time it was made was completely off base with reality. More than anything else it simply exposed again what a bimbo of the booth Carillo can be sometimes. I often want to put the TV on moot whenever she is in the booth even today (she is getting worse as the years goes by if anything). If she wasnt Johnny Mac's old buddy and doubles partner nobody would have ever heard of her.

As you said it was alot of players combining to overthrow Graf and cause her much poorer results. It was Seles herself specificaly as the one difference. Many of those players were people definitely not playing the best tennis of their whole careers either- Sanchez Vicario, Navratilova, Novotna, let alone by the huge margin they would need to be to all be faring far better than ever vs a supposably "better than ever" Graf.

 

[flying24]

I was at this match (IW 99). It took about 30 minutes to play. It went something like this when Steffi was serving --- serve, return, forehand winner. When Jana was serving, it went something like this --- serve/forehand return winner or serve, return, slice to Steffi's backhand, inside-out/inside-in forehand winner.

I never thought I'd see Steffi play again like she did from '88 to '89. It was a different Steffi, not necessarily a better Steffi. The '95 to '96 Steffi is better; the '88 and '89 Steffi was just a phenomenon. By the French Open that year, Steffi was back playing her '96-style of tennis. So, it's almost like she revisted her entire career that year from IW in March to the French Open in May/June.

Funny story about that match. As I said, it took only 30 minutes to play. So, more people were waiting to file into the stadium when it ended than were filing out of the stadium. It was the last match of the day session and the tournament staff cleared the stadium quite quickly.

People had lingered because Steffi hadn't left the court. As soon as the stadium was cleared, she began practicing, hitting the ball with Heinz, her coach. So, you have this huge crowd, a mixture of day and night session patrons crowding the upper pavilion alleys which in the Grand Champion days gave you a view onto the court. Numerous people asked if they could watch her practice. The answer was no. One man asked, How much?, meaning how much to watch her practice. The staffperson smiled and said, No.

Thanks for your recounts of the match. It sounds like she got that bug to play her former favorite playing style which was so exciting to watch, but as you say many times with age and wisdom she transformed to a more measured but even more effective playing style. It must have felt good for her though just to pull up something from the old files though, even if only for that match.

The story of the practice session at the end is funny. Thanks for sharing.

 

[BTURNER]

Do remeber whenever you have a champion loose their randking, It does improve the confidence of the rest of the top five that she is 'beatable' what's more important is now she feels beatable. the Seles leap over Graf had an indirect affect on all those other results by making Graf's mind vulnerable, unitl she regained her equilibrium. Happened to Navratilova too when Graf took over for her.

 

[flying24]

Do remeber whenever you have a champion loose their randking, It does improve the confidence of the rest of the top five that she is 'beatable' what's more important is now she feels beatable. the Seles leap over Graf had an indirect affect on all those other results by making Graf's mind vulnerable, unitl she regained her equilibrium. Happened to Navratilova too when Graf took over for her.

That is true as well, although when Navratilova was overtaken by Graf she was starting to get older anyway and for that reason it was understandable others in the field would start doing better vs her.

As well the year Seles overtook Graf was 1991 and in that year Graf won her only 2 meetings with Seles. Seles did not even have to play Graf in any of the 3 slams she won, so I see nothing directly Seles did to shatter Graf's aura that year. Selse was not firmly in the #1 spot until September of 1991. She first took it from Graf in March, and she and Graf exchanged it back and forth until after the U.S Open. Graf's poorer performances vs other players began as early as mid 1990 when she lost to Garrison at Wimbledon, began a long losing streak to Sabatini in late 1990, and lost to a pre-prime Novotna on slow hard courts in the 91 AO quarters while Graf was still ranked #1 and before Seles had won any slams apart from the French.

 

[ttwarrior1]

still no love for vicario, the whole thing should be deleted and her named added

 

[thalivest]

still no love for vicario, the whole thing should be deleted and her named added

I respect Sanchez Vicario and believe she is a great player and a great clay courter. However the reason I did not include her name was an obvious one. She was dominated by both Steffi Graf and Monica Seles on the surface, two of her contemporaries. Seles dominated her in head to head on the surface even though they won the same # of French Opens. Seles's were also 3 in a row. Graf dominated Sanchez in that she won twice the # of French Opens. When there were 2 contemporaries of hers who clearly surpass her on clay she cant even seriously be considered for the best ever tag on the surface. Atleast when women are from different eras or their story is incomplete by circumstance (eg- Graf vs Seles) one can speculate to who is greater on the surface. One cannot speculate to Sanchez possibly being the greatest ever on clay when she was clearly only the 3rd best amongst her own generation on clay.

 

[DMan]

Seles has beaten her in 3-4 GS finals they played. ANd while Graf had beaten her at other events 3-4 GS is a huge thing. Seles's "grips" which you disparage produced murderous angles and she took the ball so early and hit it so hard that except on grass she controlled much of the action against Graf simply due to the fact that Graf's slice backhand gave Seles time to regain her positioning on any surface except grass which was lightening quick back then. Graf may have the best woman's backhand slice ever and it gave other players fits. Not Seles, who was such a talented ball striker she simply went down and blasted it. Seles was the only player then who could pressure Steffi to beat her, outslug her, out work her. I saw no evidence at the time of the stabbing that Steffi had figured anything out to beat her in the GS events - aside from Wimby. The French Final was epic but she still lost. Monica would have been the clear favorite going into the French that year as well to win her 4th straight. But of course Graf won it over a player without half the power and tenacity of Seles, although Mary Jo did have twice the good looks. And Graf beat Sanchez Vicario in a few other French Finals. Seles owned Sanchez. Although post stabbing she did beat her in a French final, but then a lot of players who couldn't touch her before had some success after she was damaged goods.

Günter Parche may have fooled some of us but not me.

Which is why Günter Parche chose to take her out to save his beloved Steffis legacy which was being taken away by a teenager. Which is why he didn't stab Sanchez or Sabitini.

Yes Seles won 3 of 4 Grand Slam finals vs Graf. But it wasn't quite the same as Nadal winning 3 of 4 vs Federer. Nadal has now beaten Federer on clay, grass, and hard courts. He clearly ahs the upper hand in their H2H. And he also won 3 of 4 Slam finals in a period of only a year and a half.

Seles' 3 Slam final round victories were over a 2 -1/2 year period. I mention this because Selestials like to believe that Mons "dominated" Steffi for "so long." Like it was forever and ever.

I also disagree that Seles would have been a huge favorite at the 1993 French. For one thing, Seles was off the tour for 2+ months in early spring with her "mystery virus". Her father was diagnosed with cancer during that time as well. And Monica also had the pressure of needing to win the French, or at least outperform Steffi, in order to keep her #1 ranking. The pressure was on Monica, not Steffi.

Also, it's good to see Henin rank so high on this list. If there ever would be a match between Henin and Court on clay, I say Henin would have triumphed 7 of 8 times. Contrary to popular belief Court didn't play during an era of top flight clay court players. Her 5 French titles are impressive on a numbers level, but not an true clay corut ability.

Henin would be the only one to truly threaten a Graf or Evert on clay.

 

[thalivest]

If there ever would be a match between Henin and Court on clay, I say Henin would have triumphed 7 of 8 times.

Please tell me you are joking here.

Contrary to popular belief Court didn't play during an era of top flight clay court players.

So Nancy Richey, Ann Jones, Lesley Turner, Maria Bueno, was not an era of top flight clay court players?

 

[pmerk34]

Yes Seles won 3 of 4 Grand Slam finals vs Graf. But it wasn't quite the same as Nadal winning 3 of 4 vs Federer. Nadal has now beaten Federer on clay, grass, and hard courts. He clearly ahs the upper hand in their H2H. And he also won 3 of 4 Slam finals in a period of only a year and a half.

Seles' 3 Slam final round victories were over a 2 -1/2 year period. I mention this because Selestials like to believe that Mons "dominated" Steffi for "so long." Like it was forever and ever.

I also disagree that Seles would have been a huge favorite at the 1993 French. For one thing, Seles was off the tour for 2+ months in early spring with her "mystery virus". Her father was diagnosed with cancer during that time as well. And Monica also had the pressure of needing to win the French, or at least outperform Steffi, in order to keep her #1 ranking. The pressure was on Monica, not Steffi.

Also, it's good to see Henin rank so high on this list. If there ever would be a match between Henin and Court on clay, I say Henin would have triumphed 7 of 8 times. Contrary to popular belief Court didn't play during an era of top flight clay court players. Her 5 French titles are impressive on a numbers level, but not an true clay corut ability.

Henin would be the only one to truly threaten a Graf or Evert on clay.

Yes, it's pure coincidence that Graf in 1993 through Jan of 1994 won The French Open which she had not won since 1988, The US Open which she had not won since '89 and then the Aussie which she had not won since 1990.

The fact that Monica wasn't there had NOTHING to do with it right?

 

[flying24]

Yes, it's pure coincidence that Graf in 1993 through Jan of 1994 won The French Open which she had not won since 1988, The US Open which she had not won since '89 and then the Aussie which she had not won since 1990.

The fact that Monica wasn't there had NOTHING to do with it right?

The U.S Open definitely nothing to do with Monica. Monica is 0-7 lifetime vs Graf on faster surfaces. Monica definitely had nothing to do with Graf's failure to win a U.S Open since 1989. Graf in 1990 lost to Sabatini, 1991 lost to Navratilova, 1992 lost to Sanchez.

The French more likely so, but winning 4 in a row at the French Open would not be an easy task even for Monica.

The Australian Open again less so. Graf lost a 3 set final to Monica in 93 but didnt even play in 92 and in 91 was in such poor form she lost to Novotna on a slow hard court. Graf was in some of her best form ever at the 94 Australian Open final, infinitely better than 92 (eg- 93 she loses 9 games to Sanchez, 94 she loses only 2) and no doubt would have been able to beat Monica in the final that particular year. Most years Seles would handle Graf on rebound ace but Graf was injured and hardly ever played the event again so it doesnt matter.

 

[Lionheart392]

The WTA website's weekly poll asks who is the greatest clay courter of the open era. Henin currently leads with with 38% of the vote, compared to Graf's 23% and Evert's mere 15% :shock:
Who are the people voting in these things?

 

[thalivest]

The WTA website's weekly poll asks who is the greatest clay courter of the open era. Henin currently leads with with 38% of the vote, compared to Graf's 23% and Evert's mere 15% :shock:
Who are the people voting in these things?

Many people who have probably only seen Henin play often of those three. Also many who have even seen all 3 not really factoring in the differences that come with playing with a wood racquet, in an earlier time frame, etc...

 

[hoodjem]

Many people who have probably only seen Henin play often of those three. Also many who have even seen all 3 not really factoring in the differences that come with playing with a wood racquet, in an earlier time frame, etc...

thalivest has it pretty much correct: most polls are over-populated with newer, naive, and uninformed voters who have been following the sport for only a decade or so, at most.

You see similar results on here all the time. Such polls invariably demonstrate that the male GOAT players are either Federer or Nadal (or maybe Sampras at a stretch). As far as most people know, there was no tennis before 1993.

Last week, someone on here asked: why do they call so many tournaments "Open"? This is not a completely stupid or unreasonable question; it does suggest an modicum of curiosity. But it is one indicating an ignorance of tennis history.

 

[Arafel]

Well, yeah. Look at this poll. 8 people have Henin over Graf and Evert. I mean, choosing Graf over Evert I can understand, even if I don't agree, but Henin? Please!

 

[thalivest]

I voted for Graf by accident. I meant to vote for Evert. My personal order of the greatest clay courters ever are actually in the exact order I put them on the poll which means Henin is the 7th greatest womens clay courter ever for me. If she didnt retire who knows, but she did retire which if anything is a possible knock against her mental toughness and staying power. I am a big Henin fan as well and I very much wish she had continued and taken her career to a potentialy much higher place than it is now, but it is what it is. She certainly wasnt as dominant as many of these others were on clay though, nor did she face the toughest clay court field by any stretch. I guess that could and has been argued of some of these others too, but atleast those others achieved more vs it than Henin.

 

[thalivest]

thalivest has it pretty much correct: most polls are over-populated with newer, naive, and uninformed voters who have been following the sport for only a decade or so, at most.

You see similar results on here all the time. Such polls invariably demonstrate that the male GOAT players are either Federer or Nadal (or maybe Sampras at a stretch). As far as most people know, there was no tennis before 1993.

Last week, someone on here asked: why do they call so many tournaments "Open"? This is not a completely stupid or unreasonable question; it does suggest an modicum of curiosity. But it is one indicating an ignorance of tennis history.

Yeah it is so annoying to keep repeatedly hearing these Sampras vs Federer GOAT conversations ad nauseum. "Federer didnt do this, Sampras still the GOAT", "Federer does this he is the GOAT over Sampras." What nonsense. Like you said to many people there must have been no tennis before 1993, as if the sport was invented only 16 years ago per say. As for Nadal, I am a huge Nadal fan, Nadal is probably my favorite player ever. However even I wouldnt rank him any higher than maybe barely in the top 15 all time at this moment depending on what you value, and he could be alot lower than that again depending on what you value in rating careers. Of course he could have many more years ahead of him so time will tell where he arrives at and he has certainly gotten a great head start and got alot of important achievements under his belt for how young he is. However anyone who talks about him in the greatest ever terms on anything but clay right now must think tennis began in 2006 or 2007.

 

[CEvertFan]

thalivest has it pretty much correct: most polls are over-populated with newer, naive, and uninformed voters who have been following the sport for only a decade or so, at most.

You see similar results on here all the time. Such polls invariably demonstrate that the male GOAT players are either Federer or Nadal (or maybe Sampras at a stretch). As far as most people know, there was no tennis before 1993.

Last week, someone on here asked: why do they call so many tournaments "Open"? This is not a completely stupid or unreasonable question; it does suggest an modicum of curiosity. But it is one indicating an ignorance of tennis history.

Oh! Very well said!

 

[CEvertFan]

The WTA website's weekly poll asks who is the greatest clay courter of the open era. Henin currently leads with with 38% of the vote, compared to Graf's 23% and Evert's mere 15% :shock:
Who are the people voting in these things?

See thalivest's and hoodjem's posts. The perfect reason why.

 

[grafselesfan]

Henin was a great clay courter but vs a prime Evert or Graf she would be lucky to win 1 times out of 5. She does not have the mental toughness to come close to either in a close match, and since most of their matches on clay would be close (or atleast not many lopsided in Henin's favor) mental toughness would be required often to come out ahead often for her and she doesnt have it. Not to mention she doesnt have the serving, athleticsm, or forehand to match up with Steffi, nor the consistency or smarts to match up with Chris. I doubt she would has the grace or versatility to match up with a prime Lenglen on clay either. Court was too big, strong, imposing, athletic and consistent for Henin, even on clay. Seles and Connolly probably had too much determination and focus, as well as consistent power and accuracy from both wings off the baseline for Henin whose forehand while very good isnt the equal of her backhand. Henin has really been the best clay courter since 2002 and the best player period in the womens game since 2004 when Serena diminished in play, and she is sorely missed amongst the current laughing stock womens field but the clay court GOAT, no.

 

[BTURNER]

I cannot believe those stats! Evert at 15%!!! Idiots.

 

[grafrules]

The WTA website's weekly poll asks who is the greatest clay courter of the open era. Henin currently leads with with 38% of the vote, compared to Graf's 23% and Evert's mere 15% :shock:
Who are the people voting in these things?

Henin only got halfway to owning the French Open titles mark despite only having to face Jankovic, a mostly out of shape Serena, Venus the rather mediocre clay courter, Ivanovic, Kuznetsova the choker, Dementieva, Ivanovic, and Mauresmo the French Open choker. She has never had close to an unbeaten year on clay, losing multiple matches every year on the surface. She was on the verge of going out to Serena in the semis of the 2003 French, Kuznetsova in the 4th round at the 2005 French, and even a way past her prime Martinez in the 1st round of the 2006 French. During her 6 year reign as queen of clay her 2 losses at the French were humiliating ones: some Kapros girl in the 1st round in 2002, and Tatiana Garbin in an early round in 2004. Yet she is the greatest clay courter ever according to most who vote on the WTA website? I guess that shows the kind of people who are still left following womens tennis this day. The remaining quality is even scarier than the rapidly diminishing quantity.

 

[BTURNER]

LOL You said it all, but I said it a lot faster. Idiots!

 

[grafselesfan]

I like Henin but the greatest clay courter ever, nope. Seles having less votes than her is shocking IMO even with Seles having one less Frenchie. Even if you completely ignore the stabbing the competition Seles achieved her 3 peat against alone is totally different to what Henin won her 4 French Opens against . Facing Graf, Sanchez, Sabatini, Martinez, Fernandez, Maleeva, Capriati, all at their peak at once Seles probably faced the deepest and stronger clay court field EVER to win her 3 straight French Opens. Henin mostly beat up on clowns to win her 4 French Opens. Henin should never rate above Monica on clay.

 

[llama]

Sorry, but, no I will not shut up. Every time Graf is considered the GOAT in any category, stubbing simply has to be brought up, considered and mentioned, because that is the reason Graf was able to get that many GS and other titles.

Seles stabbing is different than any other injury since it was designed and perpetrated on the tennis court and its sole purpose was to make Graf the GOAT. So anyone who blindly insists that Graf is the GOAT in any way, is inadvertently condoning what Parche did and helping him succeed. So they have to be reminded of stabbing and what it did to Graf's and Seles' careers.

Also the fact that you need to resort to personal insults and false language just speaks about you and arguments you are lacking in this discussion.

Oh my dear God - you make this sound like it was some sort of global conspiracy. It was ONE sick individual - an individual, incidentally that Graf had reported as stalking her. If you want to blame someone, blame the police, who did nothing. (of course, you'll suggest that the police were all part of the "conspiracy") No one has to be REMINDED anymore of the stabbing (or "stubbing"). It happened - it was unfortunate. What did you want Graf to do - stop playing tennis while Monica healed? Two years is a long time to wait for your competition to come back. Seles herself has said that she always had emotional and eating problems - even before she turned pro. And to be GOAT you have to have the stamina, the nerves, the discipline to pick yourself up over and over and get back to work. I think Graf did that a lot better than Seles. So just STOP. No one can predict life. And no one can predict what Seles would have done if she hadn't been stabbed. Build a bridge - GET OVER IT!

 

[pmerk34]

Oh my dear God - you make this sound like it was some sort of global conspiracy. It was ONE sick individual - an individual, incidentally that Graf had reported as stalking her. If you want to blame someone, blame the police, who did nothing. (of course, you'll suggest that the police were all part of the "conspiracy") No one has to be REMINDED anymore of the stabbing (or "stubbing"). It happened - it was unfortunate. What did you want Graf to do - stop playing tennis while Monica healed? Two years is a long time to wait for your competition to come back. Seles herself has said that she always had emotional and eating problems - even before she turned pro. And to be GOAT you have to have the stamina, the nerves, the discipline to pick yourself up over and over and get back to work. I think Graf did that a lot better than Seles. So just STOP. No one can predict life. And no one can predict what Seles would have done if she hadn't been stabbed. Build a bridge - GET OVER IT!

I predict Seles would have continued to win GS's at Graf's expense. Just like she had been doing up until the stabbing.

 

[llama]

I predict Seles would have continued to win GS's at Graf's expense. Just like she had been doing up until the stabbing.

So - are you telling us you're psychic, too?

 

[LDVTennis]

So - are you telling us you're psychic, too?

Strangely, a lot of Seles' fans have psychic ability. I think what we need is a federal grant to study this fringe phenomenon.

 

[pmerk34]

Strangely, a lot of Seles' fans have psychic ability. I think what we need is a federal grant to study this fringe phenomenon.

I'm not a Seles fan.

 

[Winners or Errors]

Oh my dear God - you make this sound like it was some sort of global conspiracy. It was ONE sick individual - an individual, incidentally that Graf had reported as stalking her. If you want to blame someone, blame the police, who did nothing. (of course, you'll suggest that the police were all part of the "conspiracy") No one has to be REMINDED anymore of the stabbing (or "stubbing"). It happened - it was unfortunate. What did you want Graf to do - stop playing tennis while Monica healed? Two years is a long time to wait for your competition to come back. Seles herself has said that she always had emotional and eating problems - even before she turned pro. And to be GOAT you have to have the stamina, the nerves, the discipline to pick yourself up over and over and get back to work. I think Graf did that a lot better than Seles. So just STOP. No one can predict life. And no one can predict what Seles would have done if she hadn't been stabbed. Build a bridge - GET OVER IT!

Agree with you 100%. Sad that the rivalry was cut short by a wacko. No reason for Graf to stop playing and wait. It does put an asterisk on some of Graf's marks, but she may have been able to solve the Seles riddle had it not happened, so we simply don't know. I think Seles gets her due as a tennis phenom whose potential was destroyed in the stabbing. Certainly, I give her credit for coming back at all. I was not a fan prior to the stabbing, and became one when she returned, so perhaps that is the silver lining. She gained quite a bit of positive support she may otherwise never have had and is perhaps a more rounded person for it...

 

[BTURNER]

Why on this thread about clay court majors do so many forget Evert won those 3 us opens on clay barely losing a set, against high caliber fields during the years she did not play the French. She has 10 majors on clay and the highest career win/loss ratio recorded in open tennis. There is no debate left.