Greatest Female Tennis Players

[ATPballkid]

Because Graf usually self-destructed before the finals.
We all know that Graf won 80 % of her career finals and more than 70 % of her matches against #1 Seles.
Go figure ....

Condi

Did you know that Seles won 10 of the 12 major titles between the 1990 WTA Tour Championships and the 1993 Australian Open before a Graf fan got tired of Seles being the #1 player in women's tennis and literally stabbed Monica Seles in the back with a sharp knife?

Graf lost to several different players to keep her from meeting up with Seles in most of those finals -- but it really did not matter which players beat Graf before the final rounds ... Seles was there to win the tournaments.

 

[ATPballkid]

Seles would have had only a 21 % to win each of those tournaments anyway.
Graf did win them. So we only have to lower her odds (assumed the stabbing wouldn't have taken place) from 100 % to 79 %.

Seles was overrated and profited immensely from Graf's slump in 1990-92.

Condi

The fact remains Seles won 10 of the 12 major singles titles before a Graf fan LITERALLY resorted to stabbing Monica Seles in the back with a knife.

Pretty sad for Steffi Graf and her fans to have that as such a huge part of her history.

 

[Condoleezza]

Sure, as a teenager some 5 years younger than Graf in the early 1990s Monica Seles was CLEARLY the #1 player in women's tennis -- not only in the rankings, but also in her winning 9 of the 11 biggest events in women's tennis during the span of November 1990 through the April stabbing of Seles by a jealous Graf fan.

What part of this are you missing, son?

Graf had a 93.6 % winning percentage in a 11-yer time span (1986-96).
Some years were better, some were worse.

Seles in her best year ever (1992) had a 93.3 % percentage.
So it is no wonder that when Graf had one or two of her worse years Seles would be #1. So what?

Condi

 

[ATPballkid]

Graf had a 93.6 % winning percentage in a 11-yer time span (1986-96).
Some years were better, some were worse.

Seles in her best year ever (1992) had a 93.3 % percentage.
So it is no wonder that when Graf had one or two of her worse years Seles would be #1. So what?

Condi

Can Navratilova say that Evert was stabbed in the back with a knife in order for her to win an all-time record number of singles titles and doubles titles on the WTA Tour? I think the years Navratilova was most dominant she had a winning percentage which was better than the best winning percentage Graf ever had from any one year ... and Martina was able to do this without her arch-rivals being stabbed in the back with a knife.

 

[MoFed]

First it is unfair to blame or imply that Steffi wanted or is at fault for the stabbing of Seles. Did Steffi benefit from it? Yes! Should she feel guilt for benefitting from it? No! What was she suppossed to stop playing tennis because her fan stabbed Monica? No!

Condi, the stabbing incident left more of a scar on Seles than just the one she has on her back. Seles did come back heavier than she was, but I wouldn't call that overweight. At least not like you're making it to be. She was not obese and she still competed. (Serena is included in that.) The injuries that she sustained may not have been as extensive or hard to come back from if she didn't have to scratch her way back up from the stabbing. As for what could have been, we will never know!

 

[MoFed]

"Great Female Tennis Players"

I honestly believe that all these players are equally great in their own right. For an player, past or present, to come through and win a slam there is something special about that player. It does not have to come down to one player. Invariably, there are always conditions or circumstances that work for or against the player(s). With that, both Graf and Seles were great tennis players.

 

[ATPballkid]

Condi, the stabbing incident left more of a scar on Seles than just the one she has on her back. Seles did come back heavier than she was, but I wouldn't call that overweight. At least not like you're making it to be. She was not obese and she still competed. (Serena is included in that.) The injuries that she sustained may not have been as extensive or hard to come back from if she didn't have to scratch her way back up from the stabbing. As for what could have been, we will never know!

Very possibly one of the top 5 women players of all-time along with Evert, Navratilova, Wills Moody and Court ... but now we have seen the #2 player of that era, Steffi Graf, take that spot after the true #1 of the early 1990s was stabbed in the back with a sharp knife by a Steffi Graf fan.

 

[FedSampras]

Did Steffi benefit from it? Yes! Should she feel guilt for benefitting from it? No! What was she suppossed to stop playing tennis because her fan stabbed Monica? No!

Condi, the stabbing incident left more of a scar on Seles than just the one she has on her back.

The delusion and animosity of the GraFans shows to this day because they will not even admit that Graff's record IS inflated and they had not one bit of regret that someone was nearly murdered just so graff could look like she was the best when she was clearly NOT.

The truth is obvious. No amount of self-delusion is going to change it. Graff's record IS GROSSLY inflated by the KNIFE and unbiased observers see that. More and more people are willing to admit that as time goes on.

 

[MoFed]

It's amazing that somehow Steffi is no longer considered a legitimate champion because a fan that she had no control over stabbed her biggest competition. Just because it was her fan does not put the responsibility at her feet! What happened to Monica was a tragedy that Gunther Parche is responsible for!

It is unfortunate for both Graf and Seles that this happened. Obviously, for Seles she would have won more slams and possibly even the grand slam. Monica's dominance was only gaining momentum. It horrible that one idiot can have such a negative effect on someone's life. It's unfortunate for Graf that Monica was stabbed too. It would have been nice to see her have to figure out how to tweak her game to defeat Monica on a consistent basis. Once again because of Parch and Parche alone, we will never know!

 

[MoFed]

The delusion and animosity of the GraFans shows to this day because they will not even admit that Graff's record IS inflated and they had not one bit of regret that someone was nearly murdered just so graff could look like she was the best when she was clearly NOT.

The truth is obvious. No amount of self-delusion is going to change it. Graff's record IS GROSSLY inflated by the KNIFE and unbiased observers see that. More and more people are willing to admit that as time goes on.

My statement is not biased in one way towards Steffi (if it is please tell me where my bias lies) nor do I minimize the horrifying effect this stabbing had on Seles. No I wasn't a Seles fan at the time, and Yes I was a Graf fan. But that in no way makes me change my opinion or think that to blame someone from someone elses actions if right or fair.

I may not have been a fan of Monica's, but I did become an admirer. It took guts and hutzpah for her to walk back on the court and compete again.

 

[FedSampras]

It's very interesting comparing the behavior of the most devoted GraFan to the general animosity of GraFans toward Seles -- all solely because Monica supplanted Graff and took her place at the top.

As Parche may have acted out the feelings or latent desires of many GraFans, so these fans continue even today to reflect Graff's feelings. If Graff had behaved in a less hostile fashion, not just caring about herself and how her image was affected, then her fans might have followed suit. It seems clear that Graff's cold, hard-hearted response and total denial of the effects of the stabbing set the tone for her fans to follow. Graff was the one person that could have brought some healing to the situation. She should have denounced Parche and been honest and admitted that her record was not indicative of her true achievements. Clearly, this was beyond her as it is beyond a large number of her fans. Instead of denouncing Parche and the utter lack of justice by the German courts, someone from Graff's side consorted with Parche and asked him to stop speaking to the press and to be silent about the whole affair.

It was all pretty unbelievable but not as much as the unwillingness of Graff fans to face facts even after all these years.

 

[MoFed]

It's very interesting comparing the behavior of the most devoted GraFan to the general animosity of GraFans toward Seles -- all solely because Monica supplanted Graff and took her place at the top.

As Parche may have acted out the feelings or latent desires of many GraFans, so these fans continue even today to reflect Graff's feelings. If Graff had behaved in a less hostile fashion, not just caring about herself and how her image was affected, then her fans might have followed suit. It seems clear that Graff's cold, hard-hearted response and total denial of the effects of the stabbing set the tone for her fans to follow. Graff was the one person that could have brought some healing to the situation. She should have denounced Parche and been honest and admitted that her record was not indicative of her true achievements. Clearly, this was beyond her as it is beyond a large number of her fans. Instead of denouncing Parche and the utter lack of justice by the German courts, someone from Graff's side consorted with Parche and asked him to stop speaking to the press and to be silent about the whole affair.

It was all pretty unbelievable but not as much as the unwillingness of Graff fans to face facts even after all these years.

Dude you don't have a clue of what you talking about. For you to say the just because I am a Graf fan that I wanted Seles to be stabbed and suffer such a horrific act of violenc, is ridiculous. As a person and especially as a woman violence of that nature is never acceptable.

 

[Condoleezza]

.... I think the years Navratilova was most dominant she had a winning percentage which was better than the best winning percentage Graf ever had from any one year ..

Wrong again.
Graf's best winning percentage was 98 % (1989). Navratilova had only ONE better year (1983 with 99 %).

But from the 22 best (calendar year) winning percentages of the open era Graf has 8 and Navratilova only 5 (Evert 4, Seles 2, S. Williams 2, Hingis 1).

Graf: 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1993, 1995, 1996
Navratilova: 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986


Condi

 

[Condoleezza]

First it is unfair to blame or imply that Steffi wanted or is at fault for the stabbing of Seles. Did Steffi benefit from it? Yes! Should she feel guilt for benefitting from it? No! What was she suppossed to stop playing tennis because her fan stabbed Monica? No!

Condi, the stabbing incident left more of a scar on Seles than just the one she has on her back. Seles did come back heavier than she was, but I wouldn't call that overweight. At least not like you're making it to be. She was not obese and she still competed. (Serena is included in that.) The injuries that she sustained may not have been as extensive or hard to come back from if she didn't have to scratch her way back up from the stabbing. As for what could have been, we will never know!

Maybe you have a point here.
But we will never know how many more slams Graf would have won without the 1990-92 blackmail investigation & trial or without the 1995-97 tax scandal or without Steffi's career-ending reconstructive knee surgery in 1997 (was only 27 years old, same age when Navratilova won her 8th slams!).

Condi

 

[Condoleezza]

The delusion and animosity of the GraFans shows to this day because they will not even admit that Graff's record IS inflated and they had not one bit of regret that someone was nearly murdered just so graff could look like she was the best when she was clearly NOT.

The truth is obvious. No amount of self-delusion is going to change it. Graff's record IS GROSSLY inflated by the KNIFE and unbiased observers see that. More and more people are willing to admit that as time goes on.

I don't think so.
Actually Seles being sidelined clearly led to loss of motivation for Graf in 1994. Which resulted in Sanchez winning FO and USO and Martinez taking Wimbledon. IMO, without the stabbing Graf would have 1 or 2 (at least) slams more than 22.

Condi

 

[Condoleezza]

It's amazing that somehow Steffi is no longer considered a legitimate champion because a fan that she had no control over stabbed her biggest competition. Just because it was her fan does not put the responsibility at her feet! What happened to Monica was a tragedy that Gunther Parche is responsible for!

It is unfortunate for both Graf and Seles that this happened. Obviously, for Seles she would have won more slams and possibly even the grand slam. Monica's dominance was only gaining momentum. ....

Obviously not.
At the beginning of 1992 Seles had a 58-point lead in the WTA rankings.
In April 1993, just before the stabbing, Graf had narrowed this to a mere 21 points.
So Graf had reduced Seles's lead by 64 % within 15 months.
This clearly indicates that Graf was set to overtake Seles shortly.

Don't forget that Seles had only a 92 winning percentage in the 12 months before the stabbing but one of 94 % in the preceeding 12 months.

So Graf came closer in the rankings and Seles's winning percentage was going south at the same time.

Sorry, these are the facts ......

Condi

 

[Condoleezza]

My statement is not biased in one way towards Steffi (if it is please tell me where my bias lies) nor do I minimize the horrifying effect this stabbing had on Seles. No I wasn't a Seles fan at the time, and Yes I was a Graf fan. But that in no way makes me change my opinion or think that to blame someone from someone elses actions if right or fair.

I may not have been a fan of Monica's, but I did become an admirer. It took guts and hutzpah for her to walk back on the court and compete again.

It may not sound p.c. but IMO Graf, Court, Evert or Navratilova would not have been out for more than 2 years after a stabbing. They would have been eager to prove to the assailant that they won't be stopped.
Apparently Seles was not from the same mould ....

Condi

 

[Condoleezza]

.... Graff was the one person that could have brought some healing to the situation. She should have denounced Parche ....

You think she should have said publicly at least 10 times that stabbing a professional tennis player on a court is not OK???
That once was not enough?

What about paying newspaper ads in the New York Times declaring:

"It is not OK to stab Monica Seles.
Günther Parche is a bad man.

Stefanie M. Graf"
?


Condi

 

[ATPballkid]

Obviously not.
At the beginning of 1992 Seles had a 58-point lead in the WTA rankings.
In April 1993, just before the stabbing, Graf had narrowed this to a mere 21 points.
Condi

SO WE LOOK AT THE 12 BIGGEST SINGLES TITLES IN WOMEN'S TENNIS DURING THE 30 MONTHS BEFORE THE STABBING:

1990 1991 1992 1993 1994


1990 WTA Championships MONICA SELES
1991 Australian Open MONICA SELES
1991 French Open MONICA SELES

1991 Wimbledon STEFFI GRAF

1991 U.S. Open MONICA SELES
1991 WTA Championships MONICA SELES
1992 Australian Open MONICA SELES
1992 French Open MONICA SELES

1992 Wimbledon STEFFI GRAF

1992 U.S. Open MONICA SELES
1992 WTA Championships MONICA SELES
1993 Australian Open MONICA SELES

Seles was just a teenager when she was stabbed ... however, she was the 3-time defending champion of the Australian Open ... the 3-time defending champion of the French Open ... the 3-time defending champion of the WTA Tour Championships ... and, 2-time defending champion of the U.S. Open.

Not much resemblance to Austin's record in the last 12 major women's singles titles at this point.

In fact, no player in women's tennis history has won more than the 10 out of 12 major singles titles that Monica Seles won in those 30 months before being stabbed in April 1990 --- although Martina Navratilova in her prime 10 years earlier managed to match that 10 of the 12 biggest singles titles played consecutively.

Monica Seles was the ONLY player in women's tennis to win 2 of the 5 biggest singles titles in women's tennis in 1990 ... 1991 ... 1992 ... and the ONLY player to win a Grand Slam singles title in 1993 before she was stabbed in 1993 by a Steffi Graf fan.

Of course, then we had the stabbing of Monica Seles by a jealous Steffi Graf fan.

 

[FedSampras]

It may not sound p.c. but IMO Graf, Court, Evert or Navratilova would not have been out for more than 2 years after a stabbing. They would have been eager to prove to the assailant that they won't be stopped.
Apparently Seles was not from the same mould ....

Condi

Regardless of your personal beliefs about the severity of the stabbing, we know Seles did in fact miss that much time from the stabbing. If you deny that, what is your alternative explanation for the time she missed..?

You have none, because there is none. Everyone who has a brain knows that if Seles hadn't been stabbed, she never would have left the tour. There's nothing to argue about.

Ask Gunther and Graff why Seles didn't win more. Geez... how many times do we have to suffer reading these stupid statements... keep to the topic will ya?

 

[FedSampras]

Obviously not.
At the beginning of 1992 Seles had a 58-point lead in the WTA rankings.
In April 1993, just before the stabbing, Graf had narrowed this to a mere 21 points.
So Graf had reduced Seles's lead by 64 % within 15 months.
This clearly indicates that Graf was set to overtake Seles shortly.

Don't forget that Seles had only a 92 winning percentage in the 12 months before the stabbing but one of 94 % in the preceeding 12 months.

So Graf came closer in the rankings and Seles's winning percentage was going south at the same time.

Sorry, these are the facts ......

Condi

MS had a 4-3 record versus Graf from 1990-1993. Seles won 7 out of the last 8 GS she entered from 1991-1993 when Graf was also playing and was supplanted as #1.

Seles vs. Graf >> Seles is #1
Seles vs. Graf + Gunter Parche's knife >> Graf is #1

 

[FedSampras]

You think she should have said publicly at least 10 times that stabbing a professional tennis player on a court is not OK???
That once was not enough?

What about paying newspaper ads in the New York Times declaring:

"It is not OK to stab Monica Seles.
Günther Parche is a bad man.

Stefanie M. Graf"
?


Condi

But the fact is that graff will always be known as a ugly pathetic big nosed loser who because of a brutal criminal act by another german gave her the wins she could not get without the KNIFE.

 

[FedSampras]

I don't think so.
Actually Seles being sidelined clearly led to loss of motivation for Graf in 1994. Which resulted in Sanchez winning FO and USO and Martinez taking Wimbledon. IMO, without the stabbing Graf would have 1 or 2 (at least) slams more than 22.

Condi

The truth was Poor PinocchiaGraff was on the verge of retiring back in 1993 before the stabbing of World number one player in the world Monica Seles came as a blessing for Graff's carreer. Back then, Graff was just the underdog, she could not even reach the finals in most of the big tournaments simply because she had lost her self-confidence because of Seles, she was like Hingis when Williams arrived on tour; In PinocchiaGraff's mind it must have been amazingly pleasant to realise in May 1993 that her main rival in big tournies would have been Arantxa instead of Monica. Did i say MAIN RIVAL? Well, there was no real rivalry in those years between Seles and Graff: 7 slams out of 9 (not competing in one of those and losing in the final of the other ) and 2 Masters for Seles and only 2 slams (one without Seles ) for Graff in 1991-January 1993: can you call this a rivalry?

As I said, Seles was dominating the sport and PinocchiaGraff was only gathering the crumbs. The stabbing forced out of the game the best player in the world and that's all. Noone had ever broken in like this on either side of the sport. Not Borg or Evert or McEnroe or anybody. 8 majors at 19 . Imagine what would have been of Navratilova's carreer with Evert stabbed away from tennis or viceversa. That's what happened to Seles and Graff. They should add Parche's name to Graff's name in the records when they talk about Graff's results in the second part of her career, the part that began on 30 April 1993, after Parche had stabbed Seles.

One psychotic PinocchiaGraff fan will, as always, find the chance to flood us with his statistics, but there is nothing to discuss really: it was only after that Seles was stabbed that Graff found her way to win again. The truth is: PinocchiaGraff was a terrific athlete, Seles was born as a tennis player , she just had that talent within : she didn't look as she had the legs to cover the court the way she did, she got to the ball and then, half the time, her opponent never saw the next angle coming. Graff, with all her muscles and athleticism, was never more resilient than she was at the 1992 French Open final, that match would have been hers against any other opponent, but Seles would not give it up.

 

[FedSampras]

So Graf came closer in the rankings and Seles's winning percentage was going south at the same time.


Condi

Seles was clearly better than Graff in 91-93 and led 2-1 in Slam victories. She led 4-3 since 1990 in matches. play In stats terms winning 8 GS, 3 ye WTA champs she was a solid no. 1 in *absolute terms*. Once again, who cares if you weren'/t impressed. Obviously Graff and Parche were.

I think the hardest thing for you to take is that if Graff* was the *greatest with an asterisk* player ever, how could another player in the middle of her reign win 8 of 9 GS and 3 WTA champs, plus be ahead of Graff 3-1 in GS finals? It really is unprecedented, for such a young dominant champ to be passed by so decisively and completely.

It happened to both Evert who was eclipsed by Navrativlova and by Navratilova when Graff came around, but in both cases a clearly aging player was surpassed. In Graff's case, she was all of 22 or 23 when Seles surpassed her.

Since there is no logical reason, the easiest thing to do is to try and deconstruct the other players accomplishments (Seles). It's an old trick.

 

[Pancho]

Here's the Greatest of all time (Open Era)

1. Martina Navratilova

No way, Steffi Graff is the greatest! She is the only one (woman or man) that has won each grand slam at least 4 times.

 

[ATPballkid]

She is the only one (woman or man) that has won each grand slam at least 4 times.

Not so amazing Condi especially when you consider that the #1 player in women's tennis was never stabbed in the back with a knife when Evert or Navratilova were ranked #2.

 

[FedSampras]

Not so amazing Condi especially when you consider that the #1 player in women's tennis was never stabbed in the back with a knife when Evert or Navratilova were ranked #2.

True. To the eternal chagrin of the Grafan Seles was #1 in the middle of the so called "Graff' reign, thus the revisionist history.

 

[MoFed]

It may not sound p.c. but IMO Graf, Court, Evert or Navratilova would not have been out for more than 2 years after a stabbing. They would have been eager to prove to the assailant that they won't be stopped.
Apparently Seles was not from the same mould ....

Condi

Condi, you should consider yourself lucky that you have never suffered a horrific attack. The scars you don't see take the longest to heal. I don't think that anyone recovers from a violent attack in a matter of months or weeks. Not unless of course they are in denial.

FedSampras, you have not given one shred of evidence that Steffi herself or anyone in her camp was to blame or at fault for the attack on Monica. And to flat out say it is not only rude, but extremely stupid.

 

[FedSampras]

No way, Steffi Graff is the greatest!

It's hard to call Graff "best ever" - much of the accomplishments (about half her slam wins) that support that accolade were achieved after Seles was stabbed. That's all tainted to a certain degree.

 

[Condoleezza]

But the fact is that graff will always be known as a ugly pathetic big nosed loser ...

With 22 slams and a body like this?

I don't think so ....

Condi

 

[Condoleezza]

The truth was Poor PinocchiaGraff was on the verge of retiring back in 1993 before the stabbing ....

When she just had narrowed the Seles lead in the WTA rankings from 58 points (January 1992) to just 21 points?
When she had a 80-7 win/loss record (as opposed to Seles's 58-5) in the previous 12 months?

Why should she have been?


Condi

 

[Condoleezza]

True. To the eternal chagrin of the Grafan Seles was #1 in the middle of the so called "Graff' reign, thus the revisionist history.

Austin was #1 in the middle of the so-called Navratilova reign.
Sanchez was the #1 in the middle of the so-called Graf reign.
Evert was #1 in the middle of the so-called Navratilova reign, too.
King was #1 in the middle of the so-called Court reign.
Goolagong was #1 in the middle of the so-called Court reign, too.
Court was #1 in the middle of the so-called King reign.
Mauresmo was #1 in the middle of the so-called Henin reign.
Graf was the #1 in the middle of the so-called Seles reign.
Davenport was the #1 .....
..........
...


Condi

 

[FedSampras]

I just like accuracy. the KNIFE gave graff a second career - she won about half her slams after it, when it looked like she was just going to win W from then on. Right Gunter aka Condoleezza....?

 

[Condoleezza]

Condi, you should consider yourself lucky that you have never suffered a horrific attack. The scars you don't see take the longest to heal. I don't think that anyone recovers from a violent attack in a matter of months or weeks. Not unless of course they are in denial.

FedSampras, you have not given one shred of evidence that Steffi herself or anyone in her camp was to blame or at fault for the attack on Monica. And to flat out say it is not only rude, but extremely stupid.

I know people who have been victims of violent attacks (two even with knives, one of them almost died). No one didn't work for more than 2 years. No one took it as an excuse for professional failure 3 of 7 years later.

Condi

 

[FedSampras]

I know people who have been victims of violent attacks (two even with knives, one of them almost died). No one didn't work for more than 2 years. No one took it as an excuse for professional failure 3 of 7 years later.

Condi

Evert and Navi are the greatest. Graff was only great for 3 years until Seles came into the scene and kicked her butt off the number one ranking. Without the knife of Gunter, Graff would have never won more than 13 slams and most likely will never come close to Evert or Navi. She's so overrated.

 

[Condoleezza]

I just like accuracy. the KNIFE gave graff a second career - she won about half her slams after it, when it looked like she was just going to win W from then on. Right Gunter aka Condoleezza....?

What makes you think Seles could beat Graf at USO's fast hard-court surface?
Her 4-6 3-6 in 1991 at San Antonio?
Or the fact that she never beat Graf on that surface in 10 years?

BTW, nice smile this Graf has ....

Condi

 

[Condoleezza]

Evert and Navi are the greatest. Graff was only great for 3 years until Seles came into the scene and kicked her butt off the number one ranking. Without the knife of Gunter, Graff would have never won more than 13 slams and most likely will never come close to Evert or Navi. She's so overrated.

Number of slams (open era):
1. Steffi Graf 22
2. Evert 18
3. Navratilova 18
....
Seles 9 (zero Wimbledons)
....

Number of Golden Grand Slams:
1. Steffi Graf 1
2. the rest 0


Condi

 

[Warriorroger]

Evert and Navi are the greatest. Graff was only great for 3 years until Seles came into the scene and kicked her butt off the number one ranking. Without the knife of Gunter, Graff would have never won more than 13 slams and most likely will never come close to Evert or Navi. She's so overrated.

I don't care/as in mind for your opinions, that's okay. I have 4 questions though and I hope you are open enough to answer them, serious.

01 Why are you so hard on Steffi Graf herself. It is the fans who keep battling on these forums, yet the remarks are all so targetted against her.

02 Would you be so hard for a player like Sabatini or Sanchez if they had won all the titles during Seles absence?

03 Can you explain how an aging Graf manages to win the French Open beating Seles, Davenport and number Hinigs for the title and then reaches the final of Wimbledon. Doens't that count for anything?

04 Why do you insist spelling her name Graff, it is so ungracious to delibaretly spell someone's name wrong.

I do hope you take the time to repsond

 

[MoFed]

How many of them were attacked on the job like Monica was? Come on, she suffered post truamatic stress. Even if you don't think that Monica was the greatest you can't dismiss or diminish the impact of the stabbing on Monica.

 

[Dedans Penthouse]

Even if you don't think that Monica was the greatest you can't dismiss or diminish the impact of the stabbing on Monica.

Can't?

Ah, but they do.

 

[Warriorroger]

How many of them were attacked on the job like Monica was? Come on, she suffered post truamatic stress. Even if you don't think that Monica was the greatest you can't dismiss or diminish the impact of the stabbing on Monica.

No sane person would not agree, of course the stabbing had huge impact on Monica and everyone involved with her and women's tennis. I have never denied that.

 

[Condoleezza]

Can't?

Ah, but they do.

I don't.
Seles didn't play for 2 years after the stabbing. The shock of the stabbing, the grief of learning that her father had been diagnosed with cancer and the - from her POV - inappropriate punishment of the attacker obviously contributed to this.

When she returned to the game she was quite good for about one year but suffered from injuries later, saw her father die of cancer, had considerably gained weight.

Her father's suffering and death, her gaining weight, her injuries had nothing to do with the stabbing. To say otherwise means exaggerating the impact of the stabbing in order to dismiss and diminish Steffi Graf's accomplishments. A player who had to go through too much duress for herself to be denigrated like that.

Condi

 

[Condoleezza]

No sane person would not agree, of course the stabbing had huge impact on Monica and everyone involved with her and women's tennis. I have never denied that.

But we don't know whether she gained weight because of the stabbing. Can't be ruled out, can't be proven. That she never lost this weight again until the end of her career indicates that the stabbing was not the cause, though.

And we don't know whether she got her injuries because of the stabbing. Maybe some of them were caused or aggravated by the weight gain. Not very possible, but can't be ruled out completely.

We do know, however, that her father's illness and ensuing death had nothing to do with the stabbing. But we don't know whether that had any impact on her. Most probably yes, but can't be proven.

IMO, this is enough data to suggest that Seles would not have continued to have the success she had in 1991/92 for the next 10 years as well.

Condi

 

[ATPballkid]

----------------

 

[ATPballkid]

I don't.
Seles didn't play for 2 years after the stabbing. The shock of the stabbing, the grief of learning that her father had been diagnosed with cancer and the - from her POV - inappropriate punishment of the attacker obviously contributed to this.

When she returned to the game she was quite good for about one year but suffered from injuries later, saw her father die of cancer, had considerably gained weight.

Her father's suffering and death, her gaining weight, her injuries had nothing to do with the stabbing. To say otherwise means exaggerating the impact of the stabbing in order to dismiss and diminish Steffi Graf's accomplishments. A player who had to go through too much duress for herself to be denigrated like that.

Condi

What led to the STABBING?

Seles won more major titles in the 3 year period (12 for Seles vs. only 2 for Graf).

CLAY COURTS: MONICA SELES.

Seles was the better player on clay:

1990 French Open
1991 French Open
1992 French Open


INDOOR: MONICA SELES.

Seles won the biggest indoor event in 1990, 1991 and 1992:

1990 Tour Championships
1991 Tour Championships
1992 Tour Championships


HARDCOURTS: MONICA SELES.

Seles was the better player on hardcourts because she won the 2 biggest events on hardcourts 5 straight times:

1991 Australian
1991 U.S. Open
1992 Australian
1992 U.S. Open
1993 Australian


GRASS COURTS: STEFFI GRAF.


Graf won Wimbledon in 1991 and 1992 when Seles did not play the event in 1991 and she made the final round of 1992 ... so Graf has the better record on grass.

HARDCOURTS: SELES
INDOORS: SELES
CLAY: SELES
GRASS: GRAF



CUMULATIVE May 1990 - April 1993 until stabbing:

Seles: 201-16 (92.63%) ... 29 titles.
Graf: 200-22 (88.50%) ... 24 titles.



BY SURFACE:


Hardcourts May 1990 - April 1993 until stabbing:

Seles: 98-8 match record (92.45%) .. 13 titles
Graf: 66-9 match record (88.00%) .. 5 titles



Clay May 1990 - April 1993 until stabbing:

Seles: 57-4 match record (93.44%) .. 8 titles
Graf: 58-7 match record (89.23%) .. 5 titles



Grass May 1990 - April 1993 until stabbing:

Seles: 10-2 match record (83.33%) .. no titles
Graf: 19-1 match record (95.00%) .. 2 titles



Indoor Carpet May1990 - April 1993 until stabbing:

Seles: 36-2 match record (94.74%) ... 8 titles
Graf: 57-5 match record (91.94%) ... 12 titles


#1 Ranking

Monica Seles Mar 11, 1991 - Aug 04, 1991 (21 weeks)
Steffi Graf Aug 05, 1991 - Aug 11, 1991 (1 week)
Monica Seles Aug 12, 1991 - Aug 18, 1991 (1 week)
Steffi Graf Aug 19, 1991 - Sep 08, 1991 (3 weeks)
Monica Seles Sep 09, 1991 - Jun 06, 1993 (91 weeks)

 

[ATPballkid]

I don't care/as in mind for your opinions, that's okay. I have 4 questions though and I hope you are open enough to answer them, serious.

01 Why are you so hard on Steffi Graf herself. It is the fans who keep battling on these forums, yet the remarks are all so targetted against her.

02 Would you be so hard for a player like Sabatini or Sanchez if they had won all the titles during Seles absence?

03 Can you explain how an aging Graf manages to win the French Open beating Seles, Davenport and number Hinigs for the title and then reaches the final of Wimbledon. Doens't that count for anything?

04 Why do you insist spelling her name Graff, it is so ungracious to delibaretly spell someone's name wrong.

I do hope you take the time to repsond

You might be desperate enough to try anything --and with your little punk attitude you might not care that there are fans on these message boards who are very loyal to Monica Seles ... especially against the likes of you as it pertains to the stabbing incident.

Your desperation on this thread is enough to **** some true Monica Seles fans off on here.

I realize you are a sick fanatic who does not know any better ... but, son, it is time you showed a little respect for Monica Seles and her fans on here.

 

[ATPballkid]

Austin was #1 in the middle of the so-called Navratilova reign.
Sanchez was the #1 in the middle of the so-called Graf reign.
Evert was #1 in the middle of the so-called Navratilova reign, too.
King was #1 in the middle of the so-called Court reign.
Goolagong was #1 in the middle of the so-called Court reign, too.
Court was #1 in the middle of the so-called King reign.
Mauresmo was #1 in the middle of the so-called Henin reign.
Graf was the #1 in the middle of the so-called Seles reign.
Davenport was the #1 .....
..........
...


Condi

-------------------------- #2 GRAF ------------- #1 SELES


1990 Australian ---------- WON ---------- DNP
1990 French---------------- FINAL--------- WON
1990 Wimbledon------------- SEMIS---------- QUARTERS
1990 U.S. Open------------- FINAL---------- THIRD ROUND
1990 WTA Championships------ SEMIS----------- WON
1990 Majors Record------------26-4 (86.7%)----- 20-2 (91%)


1991 Australian ------------ QUARTERS----------WON
1991 French----------------- SEMIS------------WON
1991 Wimbledon---------------- WON-------------DNP
1991 U.S. Open----------------SEMIS------------WON
1991 WTA Championships-------QUARTERS----------WON
---------------------------- 22-4 (84.6%)----- 28-0 (100%)


1992 Australian-------------- DNP-------------- WON
1992 French------------------ FINAL------------ WON
1992 Wimbledon--------------- WON ------------- FINAL
1992 U.S. Open--------------- QUARTERS--------- WON
1992 WTA Championships--------FIRST ROUND------WON
------------------------------17-3 (85%)-------34-1 (97%)


1993 Australian----------------FINAL------------WON
------------------------------ 6-1 (85.7%)------ 7-0 (100%)


So ... what kind of an impact did the knife of Gunther Parche have?


How did #2 Steffi Graf do in the next 5 major events AFTER the knife of Gunther Parche made sure that #1 Monica Seles was no longer dominating women's tennis at the age of 19 years, 4 months after dominating in these earlier years?

-------------------------------- #2 GRAF ------------ #1 SELES

APRIL 1993 ------------------------------------- STABBED by Gunther Parche for the benefit of Graf


1993 French------------------ WON*
1993 Wimbledon--------------- WON*
1993 U.S. Open----------------WON*
1993 WTA Championships-----WON*


1994 Australian-------------- WON

At what point in here were we supposed to have just forgotten that Monica Seles was stabbed by a jealous Steffi Graf fan?

 

[Condoleezza]

What led to the STABBING?

Seles won more major titles in the 3 year period (12 for Seles vs. only 2 for Graf).

CLAY COURTS: MONICA SELES.

Seles was the better player on clay:

1990 French Open
1991 French Open
1992 French Open

.....

Would have had a 21 % chance to win French Open 1993 without the stabbing.

Don't forget: Only in 3 of 14 cases a 3-time-defending champ was able to win a fourth (women, post-WW2).

BTW, Graf was a better player on clay than Seles in most years. After all she had a career winning percentage on that surface of 88.8 %, Seles only of 85.1 %. And that on Graf's worst and Seles's best surface ....

Condi

 

[Condoleezza]

You might be desperate enough to try anything --and with your little punk attitude you might not care that there are fans on these message boards who are very loyal to Monica Seles ... especially against the likes of you as it pertains to the stabbing incident.

Your desperation on this thread is enough to **** some true Monica Seles fans off on here.

I realize you are a sick fanatic who does not know any better ... but, son, it is time you showed a little respect for Monica Seles and her fans on here.

A little respect for Monica, yes (although her lack of mental strength is a let-down). But not for her fans. Even if she hasn't many. Graf was and is far more popular. I will never forget how the U.S. crowd supported Steffi during her WTA Champs 1998 match against U.S. citizen Monica Seles ....

Condi

 

[Warriorroger]

You might be desperate enough to try anything --and with your little punk attitude you might not care that there are fans on these message boards who are very loyal to Monica Seles ... especially against the likes of you as it pertains to the stabbing incident.

Your desperation on this thread is enough to **** some true Monica Seles fans off on here.

I realize you are a sick fanatic who does not know any better ... but, son, it is time you showed a little respect for Monica Seles and her fans on here.

Thanks for the reply, although it wasn't meant for you to reply, I am glad you did. It proved that you can't answer the questions and only can put up the same old boring facts. Monica was a fighter on the court, but you, a fan, are certaintly not. Again thanks for (not) responding and now I'll never have to speak to you again, cause you just showed your true colour! Thanks and bye bye!:grin:

Typicial, there is no nasty comments about Monica, just 4 simple questions and then it takes ages for them to answers. What is it this time? Your cut and paste facts didn't work?