Greatest Female Tennis Players

[FedSampras]

A little respect for Monica, yes (although her lack of mental strength is a let-down). But not for her fans. Even if she hasn't many. Graf was and is far more popular. I will never forget how the U.S. crowd supported Steffi during her WTA Champs 1998 match against U.S. citizen Monica Seles ....

Condi

I read it in the New York Times, after Graff had won her third consecutive GS in Seles' absence, that she instructed journalists not to mention the stabbing or that the interview was over and that she would no longer discuss it in the future, and to please refrain from asking those questions in the future ...Graff also walked out of a press conference in Germany,of all places, at an old tournamnet in Filderstadt, when asked about the stabbing ...Gunter's overrated girl is persona non grata when it comes to the stabbing, and HOW THE KNIFE CHANGED THE FACE OF TENNIS ...

Graff is probably one of the most unpopular and unlikable past champions on the women's side.

 

[FedSampras]

I don't care/as in mind for your opinions, that's okay. I have 4 questions though and I hope you are open enough to answer them, serious.

01 Why are you so hard on Steffi Graf herself. It is the fans who keep battling on these forums, yet the remarks are all so targetted against her.

02 Would you be so hard for a player like Sabatini or Sanchez if they had won all the titles during Seles absence?

03 Can you explain how an aging Graf manages to win the French Open beating Seles, Davenport and number Hinigs for the title and then reaches the final of Wimbledon. Doens't that count for anything?

04 Why do you insist spelling her name Graff, it is so ungracious to delibaretly spell someone's name wrong.

I do hope you take the time to repsond

A German fan of German Graff stabbed Seles in the back in Germany while she was sitting down between changes to make the German Graff #1 over the #1 Seles who took the #1 ranking from the German Graff. It worked and the German Graff became #1 at the point of the KNIFE. To make matters worse, the German courts did not send Seles' German assailant to prison thus sending the clear message that it is OK to stab a young girl as long as it benefits the German Graff. Graff's German fans do not like it when this disgusting and heinous criminal is brought up in response to their bragging about the slams the German Graff won at the point of the KNIFE. Too bad

 

[MoFed]

I read it in the New York Times, after Graff had won her third consecutive GS in Seles' absence, that she instructed journalists not to mention the stabbing or that the interview was over and that she would no longer discuss it in the future, and to please refrain from asking those questions in the future ...Graff also walked out of a press conference in Germany,of all places, at an old tournamnet in Filderstadt, when asked about the stabbing ...Gunter's overrated girl is persona non grata when it comes to the stabbing, and HOW THE KNIFE CHANGED THE FACE OF TENNIS ...

Graff is probably one of the most unpopular and unlikable past champions on the women's side.

I would have done the same thing if I were. If everytime someone interviewed me they brought something so horrifying I'd not want to talk to them either. It's not that she was trying to be insensitive or rude, but how long was she to keep answering the same questions which she'd already answered. You have no idea what affect this incident had on her too. I'm not in anyway diminishing Monica's experience, but she wasn't the only victim. Primary victim yes, but not the only one. Steffi for the rest of her life has to live with the fact that mental ****** used her name to commit a horrible act of violence. Just because she didn't want to share her feelings with press or the world after every moment on the court doesn't mean she didn't have her own scars to deal with.

It's just like Jennifer Capriati continuously being asked about her drug abuse. After a while it gets to the point where you are trying to heal and can't and don't want to talk about this stuff anymore.

I for one prefer the road of compassion rather than judgemental malacious comments that would I wouldn't want visited on me if I were the person on either side of this tragedy.

 

[FedSampras]

I would have done the same thing if I were. If everytime someone interviewed me they brought something so horrifying I'd not want to talk to them either. It's not that she was trying to be insensitive or rude, but how long was she to keep answering the same questions which she'd already answered. You have no idea what affect this incident had on her too. I'm not in anyway diminishing Monica's experience, but she wasn't the only victim. Primary victim yes, but not the only one. Steffi for the rest of her life has to live with the fact that mental ****** used her name to commit a horrible act of violence. Just because she didn't want to share her feelings with press or the world after every moment on the court doesn't mean she didn't have her own scars to deal with.

It's just like Jennifer Capriati continuously being asked about her drug abuse. After a while it gets to the point where you are trying to heal and can't and don't want to talk about this stuff anymore.

I for one prefer the road of compassion rather than judgemental malacious comments that would I wouldn't want visited on me if I were the person on either side of this tragedy.

Has she ever condemned in an interview the heinous and criminal act perpetrated against a young girl in her native Germany by one of her German supporters ...? PLEASE QUOTE IT ! Either way, Graff, IMO, should show more respect and emphathy to Seles, and the tragedy that befell her ... she can't, because she truly hates Seles for taking away her number one ...

that will never change. stabbing or no stabbing, Graff could not and did not regain the number one ranking from playing and beating Seles ...

 

[MoFed]

FedSamp I don't know what Steffi said about the stabbing, but I do know that she went to see Monica several times while she was in the hospital. Neither player, that I could find, ever said what was discussed when they saw each other.

 

[spectraflamed]

For what its worth

Evert
Court
Navratilova
Willis
Graf
Seles
King
Babe Didrikson Zaharias (yeah I know she never played but if she had )
S Williams
Kournikova LOL

 

[Sagittar]

In Order:
Navratilova
Seles
Graf
Williams , Serena

I am only talking about players i actually saw playing not players before i was born ..

 

[Condoleezza]

I read it in the New York Times, after Graff had won her third consecutive GS in Seles' absence, that she instructed journalists not to mention the stabbing or that the interview was over and that she would no longer discuss it in the future, and to please refrain from asking those questions in the future .....

You are a low-down yankee liar.

...Graff also walked out of a press conference in Germany,of all places, at an old tournamnet in Filderstadt, when asked about the stabbing ....

The last time Graf played in Filderstadt was 1985, Seles was stabbed in 1993, you liar ....

Condi

 

[Condoleezza]

A German fan of German Graff stabbed Seles in the back in Germany while she was sitting down between changes to make the German Graff #1 over the #1 Seles who took the #1 ranking from the German Graff. It worked and the German Graff became #1 at the point of the KNIFE. To make matters worse, the German courts did not send Seles' German assailant to prison thus sending the clear message that it is OK to stab a young girl as long as it benefits the German Graff. Graff's German fans do not like it when this disgusting and heinous criminal is brought up in response to their bragging about the slams the German Graff won at the point of the KNIFE. Too bad

But in which way did the stabbing influence the German Graf's slam haul?
Not significantly is the answer.

We all have learned here that only 3 of fourteen 3-time-defending female slam champions managed to win a fourth title. Only 21 %.
Seles's odds would have been far lower, though, considering that

a) she lost - while being WTA #1 - 5 of 7 matches against Graf.
b) Graf was 80-7 win/loss in the 52 weeks before the stabbing and Seles only 58-5.
c) Graf was 80-2 win/loss in the 52 weeks following the stabbing.

About 10 % maximum. I don't even think Seles would have made the finals of FO 93 and AO 94 .....


Condi

 

[Condoleezza]

Has she ever condemned in an interview the heinous and criminal act perpetrated against a young girl in her native Germany by one of her German supporters ...? PLEASE QUOTE IT ! ...

I have the whole press conference with Steffi after the Hamburg 1993 semi final match (the day after the stabbing) on DVD.
When explaining how she felt she cried.

That was far more authentic than any superficial "condemnation".
Maybe it's a cultural thing that you don't understand it ....


Condi

 

[Condoleezza]

For what its worth

Evert
Court
Navratilova
Willis
Graf
Seles
King
Babe Didrikson Zaharias (yeah I know she never played but if she had )
S Williams
....

Graf is not American, d***head .....


Condi

 

[Condoleezza]

In Order:
Navratilova
Seles
Graf
Williams , Serena

I am only talking about players i actually saw playing not players before i was born ..

You are really one bright bulb .....

Seles is ahead of Graf because even as a #1 player she lost more than 70 % of her matches against Graf, right?

Or because she has a lower winning percentage in her one best year ever (1992) than Graf in a 11-year time frame (1986-96)?

Yes, that's very convincing.
Let me guess - you are American? And you don't speak any other language?
And you have never been outside of the USA?
Well, I thought so ....

Condi

 

[Netgame]

I am so sick of this open era crap..

Back in the day, the players played for peanuts, had to travel longer (sometimes on boats), and alot of the time shared accomodation, equipment, coaches and facilities, and would walk to the tournament from where they were staying..

Players now fly first class, have top notch medical assistance, stay in nice hotels, get driven around, have everything at their beck and call. And to top that off, they also get payed a s##t tin to play..

So what if they play on more different surfaces today. I respect what all the old players did, and anyone that wants to think differently is kidding themselves..

Court was the greatest ever.. period!!

I wish I could have seen more of Margaret Court. Unfortunately, my opinion of her is based solely on her thrashing at the hands of that old guy, Bobby Riggs. I didn't see a lot of athletic greatness that day, but maybe she was too old by then?

 

[Netgame]

A German fan of German Graff stabbed Seles in the back in Germany while she was sitting down between changes to make the German Graff #1 over the #1 Seles who took the #1 ranking from the German Graff. It worked and the German Graff became #1 at the point of the KNIFE. To make matters worse, the German courts did not send Seles' German assailant to prison thus sending the clear message that it is OK to stab a young girl as long as it benefits the German Graff. Graff's German fans do not like it when this disgusting and heinous criminal is brought up in response to their bragging about the slams the German Graff won at the point of the KNIFE. Too bad

I don't think this thread is going to convince anyone to change their opinions. Can't we just agree that Seles and Graf were both two of the greatest players of all time, and that we fans were robbed of a few more years of great tennis between these two players by a crazy person?

IMO at the time of the stabbing, Seles was the dominant player, but who is to say that Graf wouldn't turn that around? Graf had been dominant to Seles in prior years. Who knows? I think they are both great, and to put down one's greatness just to promote the other's greatness is futile.

Graf did it for longer. But Seles, at her peak, made shots we may never see again. I just can't pick one.

 

[Gilgamesh]

Seles lost her form after the stabbing. But no one can say DUE to the stabbing.

Seles got fat and slower, had many injuries. To suggest that a stabbing causes fatness is quite a stretch. To suggest that all her injuries came from the stabbing is ridiculous. There are many examples of players getting overweight during the years (Serena!) or getting injuries (Graf, Pierce, Austin, Hingis).

Seles was 2-3 vs. Graf during her peak (= being #1 pre-stabbing).

BTW, did you ever address the astonishing fact that Graf had a better winning percentage in a 11-year time span (1986-96) than Seles in her single BEST YEAR EVER (1992)? Why don't I ever hear anything about that from Seles fans?

Condi

First off despite hardly ever watching the women's tour today I was a fan of BOTH Graf and Seles during the early to mid 90s. I am not biased to either player but you obviously ARE.

I never said her loss of form was directly due to her stabbing which is why I said arguing against Graf primarily because of Seles' stabbing is dangerous. Did you read what I typed? No one knows if Seles would have been able to keep up her dominance regardless of the stabbing or not. Who knows she might have fizzled out like Hingis.

But there are a couple things we DO know and that is:

1) Seles' form after her stabbing is CLEARLY not the same as pre-stabbing.
2) Her #1 ranking post-stabbing was farce. Graf was the best women's player in the world then and everybody knows it.
3) In response to your last paragraph. Did you read what I wrote? Perhaps you are addressing everybody else but in the post you directly replied to I said even if you minus all the success post-stabbing Graf had and compare it to the success Seles' had pre-stabbing I would still rank Graf AHEAD of Seles.

 

[Gilgamesh]

Seles is ahead of Graf because even as a #1 player she lost more than 70 % of her matches against Graf, right?

Why do you keep bringing this up? Is this your strongest argument? Therefore, we can also conclude that Nadal is better than Federer.

Also, like I said Seles' #1 ranking in 95 and 96 was a farce and therefore her losing % against Graf while ranked #1 during that time should be taken under the correct context in respects to her ranking.

 

[spectraflamed]

Graf is not American, d***head .....


Condi

??? I think your d*** is stuck in your eye. I never mentioned anything about Americans. Go take your medication and come back when it kicks in.

 

[FedSampras]

You are a low-down yankee liar.




Condi

How to win the germ's way:

Seles vs. Graff >> Seles is #1
Seles vs. Graff + Gunter Parche's knife >> Graff is #1

This may be a repetitious but a necessary reminder for those who would like to brush over the fact that without Parche's knife Graff was destined to be second to Seles.

 

[FedSampras]

Graf is not American, d***head .....


Condi

Take it easy with the name calling German boy, you sh*t eating stinking a**hole who cannot get his head out of his own a**.

There is no better combination than Graff+KNIFE!

 

[Condoleezza]

How to win the germ's way:

Seles vs. Graff >> Seles is #1
Seles vs. Graff + Gunter Parche's knife >> Graff is #1

This may be a repetitious but a necessary reminder for those who would like to brush over the fact that without Parche's knife Graff was destined to be second to Seles.

Graf was destined to overtake Seles anyway in 1993.
She had come closer and closer and closer in the rankings.
She was 80-7 win/loss against Seles's 58-5 in the 52 weeks before the stabbing.
She had won 3 of 5 matches against #1 Seles.
And she was not gaining weight like Seles.

Hey, Graf was the far superior player.
After all her winning percentage during a long, long, long time span of 11 years (1986-96) was higher than Seles's winning percentage in her best year ever (1992). So Graf even ON AVERAGE was better in those 11 years than peak Seles of 1992.

Average Graf >>> peak Seles


Condi

 

[Condoleezza]

Take it easy with the name calling German boy, you sh*t eating stinking a**hole who cannot get his head out of his own a**. ....

Losing your nerve, sonny?

Understandable with your girl losing to Graf

9-22 in slams
0-7 in Wimbledons
2-5 in USOs
3-6 in FOs
5-10 in H2H
0-1 in husbands
0-2 in kids
and even more in number of fans.

Losing must be the bond between you and your girl .....


Condi

 

[ATPballkid]

Losing your nerve, sonny?

Understandable with your girl losing to Graf

9-22 in slams
0-7 in Wimbledons
2-5 in USOs
3-6 in FOs
5-10 in H2H
0-1 in husbands
0-2 in kids
and even more in number of fans.

Losing must be the bond between you and your girl .....



Condi

The best COMBINATION in the history of women's singles HAS TO BE Gunther Parche and Steffi Graf.

 

[NamRanger]

The best COMBINATION in the history of women's singles HAS TO BE Gunther Parche and Steffi Graf.

I believe this man wins.

 

[ATPballkid]

She had won 3 of 5 matches against #1 Seles.
And she was not gaining weight like Seles.

Hey, Graf was the far superior player.


Condi

Early 1990s .. Monica Seles dominated Steffi Graf .. Seles won the first 2 matches played vs. Graf in the 1990s and Seles won the last match that was played vs. Graf.

Of course, a Steffi Graf fan was needed to place a knife blade in the back of Monica Seles to end this domination.

During the years 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993 both Monica Seles and Martina Navratilova had a winning record vs. Steffi Graf.


1990-05-14
Berlin Clay - Winner Monica Seles (USA) 6-4 6-3

1990-05-28
Roland Garros Clay - Winner Monica Seles (USA) 7-6 6-4

1991-03-25
San Antonio Hardcourt - Winner Steffi Graf (GER) 6-4 6-3

1991-04-29
Hamburg Clay - Winner Steffi Graf (GER) 7-5 6-7 6-3

1992-05-25
Roland Garros Clay - Winner Monica Seles (USA) 6-2 3-6 10-8

1992-06-22
Wimbledon Grass - Winner Steffi Graf (GER) 6-2 6-1

1993-01-18
Australian Open Hardcourt - Winner Monica Seles (USA) 4-6 6-3 6-2

 

[ATPballkid]

Graf was the far superior player.

Average Graf >>> peak Seles


Condi

If Monica Seles as a teenager had won 10 of the 12 biggest events in women's tennis between the end of 1990 and the stabbing ... and if Monica Seles as a teenager was the ONLY player to win 2 of the 5 biggest events in women's tennis in 1990 ... and if Monica Seles as a teenager was the ONLY player to win 4 of the 5 biggest events in women's tennis in 1991 ... and if Monica Seles as a teenager was the ONLY player to win 4 of the 5 biggest events in women's tennis in 1992 ... and if Monica Seles as a teenager was the ONLY player to win a women's singles title at a Grand Slam at the time of the stabbing in 1993 ... and if Monica Seles as a teenager was the ONLY player that was ever stabbed in the back by a Steffi Graf fan .... then HOW can you suggest that Seles as a player was in any way inferior to Steffi Graf?

 

[Condoleezza]

Early 1990s .. Monica Seles dominated Steffi Graf .. Seles won the first 2 matches played vs. Graf in the 1990s and Seles won the last match that was played vs. Graf.
....
During the years 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993 both Monica Seles and Martina Navratilova had a winning record vs. Steffi Graf. .....

In 1991/92 (Seles's best years ever) .. Steffi Graf dominated Monica Seles .. Graf won the first 2 matches played vs. Graf in 1991/92 and Graf won the last that was played vs. Seles.
...
During the years 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993 Steffi Graf had a winning record vs. both Seles and Navratilova. .......

More even: During the years 1986-99 Steffi Graf had a whopping winning record vs. both Seles and Navratilova. .....

Condi

 

[Condoleezza]

If Monica Seles as a teenager had won 10 of the 12 biggest events in women's tennis between the end of 1990 and the stabbing ..... and if Monica Seles as a teenager was the ONLY player to win 4 of the 5 biggest events in women's tennis in 1991 ... and if Monica Seles as a teenager was the ONLY player to win 4 of the 5 biggest events in women's tennis in 1992 ... then HOW can you suggest that Seles as a player was in any way inferior to Steffi Graf?

Easily.
This was a very short period. Even then Graf won the 2 most prestigious tournaments (Wimbledon 1991 and 1992) and 3 of 4 matches vs. Seles.
Of those wins against Seles one was a devastating blow-out in Wimbledon. Graf's only loss was an extremely close match (8-10 in 3rd at FO 92); could have been 4-0 H2H easily.

Pre-91 and post-92 Graf was better and more successful anyway:
Pre-91 Graf won 9 slams and Seles only 1. Graf was 3-2 H2H vs. Seles.
Post-92 Graf won 11 slams and Seles only 1. Graf was 4-1 H2H vs. Seles.

That's a very interesting fact:
When Graf was #1 she was 3-2 H2H vs. Seles.
When Graf was #2 she was 3-2 H2H vs. Seles.
When Graf was #1 again she was 2-0 H2H vs. Seles.
When neither Graf nor Seles were #1 anymore Graf was 2-1 H2H vs. Seles.
There is no surface where Seles has a winning H2H against Graf.
So Gra ALWAYS was ahead of Seles.

Condi

 

[ATPballkid]

In 1991/92 (Seles's best years ever) .. Steffi Graf dominated Monica Seles .. Graf won the first 2 matches played vs. Graf in 1991/92 and Graf won the last that was played vs. Seles.
...
During the years 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993 Steffi Graf had a winning record vs. both Seles and Navratilova. .......

More even: During the years 1986-99 Steffi Graf had a whopping winning record vs. both Seles and Navratilova. .....

Condi

There is no other reason for a German to stab Seles in the back with a knife if Seles did not have the better record in the first 3 or 4 years of the 1990s than Graf ... in addition to leading Graf head-to-head in the 1990s before the stabbing, Seles had dominated the major events other than Wimbledon.

Graf was #2 for the 1980s and #2 for the 1990s ..

Graf was #1 in women's tennis until Seles came and replaced her as #1 ... and Seles was #1 with no end in sight until one of your people stabbed Seles in the back with a knife after Seles had dominated 1991, 1992 and into 1993.

 

[ATPballkid]

Easily.
This was a very short period. Even then Graf won the 2 most prestigious tournaments (Wimbledon 1991 and 1992) and 3 of 4 matches vs. Seles.
Of those wins against Seles one was a devastating blow-out in Wimbledon. Graf's only loss was an extremely close match (8-10 in 3rd at FO 92); could have been 4-0 H2H easily.

Pre-91 and post-92 Graf was better and more successful anyway:
Pre-91 Graf won 9 slams and Seles only 1. Graf was 3-2 H2H vs. Seles.
Post-92 Graf won 11 slams and Seles only 1. Graf was 4-1 H2H vs. Seles.

That's a very interesting fact:
When Graf was #1 she was 3-2 H2H vs. Seles.
When Graf was #2 she was 3-2 H2H vs. Seles.
When Graf was #1 again she was 2-0 H2H vs. Seles.
When neither Graf nor Seles were #1 anymore Graf was 2-1 H2H vs. Seles.
There is no surface where Seles has a winning H2H against Graf.
So Gra ALWAYS was ahead of Seles.

Condi

Seles dominated women's tennis in the early 1990s before she was stabbed by a Steffi Graf fan for ranking #1.

Yes, Seles had a winning advantage over Graf head to head in the years 1990-1993 .. so did Navratilova .. but that only tells part of the story.

The 12 biggest events in women's tennis from the 1990 WTA Tour Championships through the 1993 Australian Open:


1990 WTA Tour Championships
MONICA SELES WON (over Gabriela Sabatini).
STEFF GRAF LOST IN SEMIS (to Sabatini in straight sets.)

1991 Australian
MONICA SELES WON (over Jana Novotna).
STEFF GRAF LOST IN QUARTERS (to Jana Novotna).

1991 French
MONICA SELES WON (over Arantxa Sanchez Vicario).
STEFF GRAF LOST IN SEMIS (to ASV in straight sets).

1991 Wimbledon
MONICA SELES DID NOT PLAY
STEFF GRAF WON (over Gabriela Sabatini 8-6 in the 3rd).

1991 U.S. Open
MONICA SELES WON (over Martina Navratilova).
STEFF GRAF LOST IN SEMIS (to Martina Navratilova).

1991 WTA Tour Championships
MONICA SELES WON (over Martina Navratilova).
STEFF GRAF LOST IN QUARTERS (to Jana Novotna).

1992 Australian
MONICA SELES WON (over Mary Joe Fernandez).
STEFF GRAF DID NOT PLAY.

1992 French
MONICA SELES WON (over Steffi Graf).
STEFF GRAF LOST IN THE FINAL (to Monica Seles).

1992 Wimbledon
MONICA SELES LOST IN THE FINAL (to Steffi Graf).
STEFF GRAF WON (over Monica Seles).

1992 U.S. Open
MONICA SELES WON (over ASV).
STEFF GRAF LOST IN QUARTERS (to ASV in straight sets).

1992 WTA Tour Championships
MONICA SELES WON (over Martina Navratilova).
STEFF GRAF LOST IN FIRST ROUND (to Lori McNeal).

1993 Australian
MONICA SELES WON (over Steffi Graf).
STEFF GRAF LOST IN THE FINAL (to Monica Seles).



In these 12 major events between the end of 1990 and the stabbing of Monica Seles by a Steffi Graf fan ...

Monica Seles:

• entered 11 of the 12 events.
• won 10 of the 12 events.
• reached the final round in 11 of the 12 events.

Steffi Graf:

• entered 11 of the 12 events.
• won 2 of the 12 events.
• reached the final round in 4 of the 12 events.
• lost in the semis or earlier in 8 of the 12 events.


In addition to going 2-1 vs. Graf in these 12 big women's tournaments between the end of 1990 and the stabbing ... Seles also had 5 wins in the final round of these big events over players who had beaten Graf in either the semis or quarters of the same event (Sabatini ... Novotna ... Navratilova ... and ASV twice).

So ... yes, Seles had the winning edge head to head over Graf in 1990-1993 just as Navratilova did ... but Seles was also beating players who had also beaten Graf in the semis and quarters of the big events Graf was losing.

 

[ATPballkid]

That's a very interesting fact:
When Graf was #1 she was 3-2 H2H vs. Seles.
When Graf was #2 she was 3-2 H2H vs. Seles.

Condi

That is because Graf kept losing before she would get to the final rounds of major events that Seles won by beating players who had already beaten Graf. Seles won 10 of the 12 biggest events in tennis between the 1990 Tour Championships and the day a Graf fan stabbed the #1 Seles in the back with a knife. It wasn't Monica's fault Steffi was losing to Navratilova, ASV and Sabatini before Graf could make it far enough to play Seles in the final. Monica beat whoever was in that final against her even if that player had beaten Graf to get there. Again, Seles won 10 of the 12 biggest events in women's tennis during that time -- whether Steffi Graf was good enough to advance to the final round to meet up with Seles or if it was another player Seles had to beat in the final round who had already beaten Graf.

 

[ATPballkid]

Easily.

Condi

Can Navratilova say that Evert was stabbed in the back with a knife in order for her to win an all-time record number of singles titles and doubles titles on the WTA Tour? I think the years Navratilova was most dominant she had a winning percentage which was better than the best winning percentage Graf ever had from any one year ... and Martina was able to do this without her arch-rivals being stabbed in the back with a knife.

Name any of the 5 major events -- the 4 Grand Slams and the WTA Tour Championships -- where Steffi Graf has the all-time record for most singles or doubles titles won there.

I don't think you can ... even with the help she got from Gunther Parche.

 

[ATPballkid]

So Gra ALWAYS was ahead of Seles.

Condi

LOL ... Monica was CLEARLY #1 between November 1990 and the stabbing in April 1993 by winning 10 of the 12 biggest events played in that time.

Steffi ALWAYS was ahead of Monica? Are you suggesting Parche got the wrong player?

 

[ATPballkid]

When Steffi Graf first became #1 she had already lost the 1987 Wimbledon final to Navratilova ... and Graf lost a second consecutive Grand Slam final to Navratilova at the 1997 U.S. Open right after Graf had first turned #1.

That's 2 consecutive Grand Slam losses by Graf in 1987 at Wimbledon and the U.S. Open ... the second consecutive loss was after Graf had become #1.


1987-06-22 Wimbledon Grass F Navratilova (USA) 7-5 6-3

Graf first became #1 in here ..... August 17, 1987

1987-08-31 U.S. Open Hardcourt F Navratilova (USA) 7-6 6-1

NAVRATILOVA WAS ALMOST 31 YEARS OLD HERE.



Graf became #1 again 4 years later .. August 19, 1991:

1991-08-26 U.S. Open Hardcourt SF Navratilova (USA) 7-6 6-7 6-4

NAVRATILOVA WAS ALMOST 35 YEARS OLD HERE.



Almost 3 months before the stabbing of Monica Seles:

1993-02-01 Tokyo Indoor Carpet SF Navratilova (USA) 4-6 6-3 6-3

NAVRATILOVA WAS 36 YEARS OLD HERE.

 

[ATPballkid]

When Graf was #2 she was 3-2 H2H vs. Seles.

Condi

Navratilova and Seles both had winning records vs. Graf for the years 1990-1993.

Navratilova turned 34 in 1990 ... 35 in 1991 ... 36 in 1992 ... and 37 in 1993.

Seles was 16 for most of 1990 ... 17 for most of 1991 ... and 18 for most of 1992.

Who is going to blame Seles for Graf failing to reach the final round of most of the major events in 1990, 1991 and 1992 in addition to losing to Seles in the 1993 Australian Open final?

Seles was there winning every major other than Wimbledon in women's tennis from the end of 1990 through the early part of 1993. It was not Seles fault that Graf was not there to meet her in the final. Seles just beat the players who had beaten Graf to get into the final.

 

[drakulie]

Navratilova and Seles both had winning records vs. Graf for the years 1990-1993.

Navratilova turned 34 in 1990 ... 35 in 1991 ... 36 in 1992 ... and 37 in 1993.

Seles was 16 for most of 1990 ... 17 for most of 1991 ... and 18 for most of 1992.

Who is going to blame Seles for Graf failing to reach the final round of most of the major events in 1990, 1991 and 1992 in addition to losing to Seles in the 1993 Australian Open final?

Seles was there winning every major other than Wimbledon in women's tennis from the end of 1990 through the early part of 1993. It was not Seles fault that Graf was not there to meet her in the final. Seles just beat the players who had beaten Graf to get into the final.

While Seles was # 1, and "beating up on Graf" did she ever win Wimbledon?

 

[FedSampras]

In 1991/92 (Seles's best years ever) .. Steffi Graf dominated Monica Seles ..
Condi

Are you paid to act dumb around here, or is it just your GraFan frustration showing..?

 

[FedSampras]

While Seles was # 1, and "beating up on Graf" did she ever win Wimbledon?

Lucky for Graff her *peak* was playing a decrepit MN, an aging Evert, a *fiesty* ASV, a stubborn Novotna, and a defiant Mary Jo Fenandez. How CONVENIENT Graff couldn't play peak against Seles in most of the GS, where Seles holds a 3-1. Here is where you mention the 1992 Wimbledon for the upteenth time.

 

[FedSampras]

Seles dominated women's tennis in the early 1990s before she was stabbed by a Steffi Graf fan for ranking #1.

Yes, Seles had a winning advantage over Graf head to head in the years 1990-1993 .. so did Navratilova .. but that only tells part of the story.

Amen. Seles beat Graff at the 90 GO and 90 FO when Graff was at the height of her powers. It was a stunning reversal for Graff- must have devastated her. Other players were heartened, and Graff tumbled, relatively speaking.

 

[Condoleezza]

Navratilova and Seles both had winning records vs. Graf for the years 1990-1993. ...

Thanks, that's very good evidence for Graf slumping big time in the early 90ies.

90/April 93 Graf was 1-2 H2H vs. Navratilova.
But 87/89 Graf had been 6-2 H2H vs. Navratilova.

90/April93 Graf was 6-8 H2H vs. Sabatini.
But 87/89 Graf had been 15-3 H2H vs. Sabatini.

90/April93 Graf was 3-4 H2H vs. Seles.

It is no rocket science to conclude that 87/89 Graf would have dominated Seles H2H, too.

BTW, post-April93 Graf was 5-0 H2H vs. Sabatini again.
So it is no rocket science either to conclude that 93/95 Graf would have dominated Seles as well. As she did in 95/99.


Face it:
Seles only was #1 because Graf was slumping big-time. She was no match against peak Graf. Comparable to Hingis. Second-tier greats only ...

Condi

 

[Condoleezza]

Are you paid to act dumb around here, or is it just your GraFan frustration showing..?

Of course Graf dominated Seles in Seles's two best years ever (1991/92)!

Graf - Seles, San Antonio 1991: 6-4 6-3
Graf - Seles, Hamburg 1991: 7-5 6-7 6-3
Seles - Graf, French Open 1992: 6-2 3-6 10-8
Graf - Seles, Wimbledon 1992: 6-2 6-1

That is
3-1 in matches
7-3 in sets
57-41 in games

Seles's only win was the closest of all 4 matches .....


Condi

 

[Condoleezza]

Lucky for Graff her *peak* was playing a decrepit MN, ...

So Navratilova was "decrepit" in 1988/89 when she lost 2 Wimbledon finals against Graf?
How then could Navratilova win 4 matches against #1 Seles in 1991/93 .... ?


Quite interesting:
31/32-year-old Navratilova was not able to beat #1 Graf.
But 34/36-year-old Navratilova managed beat #1 Seles FOUR times.
Among them an easy 6-4 6-2 win in summer of 1992!!!!!!!!!!
Wow, what a "great" #1 ......

Condi

 

[Condoleezza]

Amen. Seles beat Graf at the 90 GO and 90 FO when Graf was at the height of her powers. ...

She wasn't.
Even lost to Garrison in the Wimbledon semis.

Seles's two wins came within 3 days and 3 weeks respectively after the Graf Blackmail Scandal exploded in the tabloid headlines. Sabatini or Sanchez would have won those two matches against Graf as well, maybe even more easily.

Seles of 1990 was nowhere near peak 91/92 Seles. Who was beaten regularily by Graf (3-1 in matches, 7-3 in sets) .....

Face it:

In Seles's two best years EVER
a) Graf was 3-1 H2H against her (=THREE to only ONE)
b) Graf won two Wimbledons and Seles ZERO.




Condi

 

[FedSampras]

Seles's two wins came within 3 days and 3 weeks respectively after the Graf Blackmail Scandal exploded in the tabloid headlines. Sabatini or Sanchez would have won those two matches against Graf as well, maybe even more easily.

Condi

Graff was on a fantastic roll, clearly at one of her all-time best peaks, and yet got beat solidly by Seles (and no one else) until the knifing.

But per Condi peak Graff can never lose. Whenever someone beats Graf she is playing at 70%, or 40%, so on. That's his faith and you can never take it away from them.

It's preposterous, but there you have it...

 

[FedSampras]

Seles's only win was the closest of all 4 matches .....


Condi

Yes, but since Graff couldn't do it on the court, gunter had to do it with a knife.

 

[FedSampras]

It is no rocket science to conclude that 87/89 Graf would have dominated Seles H2H, too.


Condi

Seles was beating Graff often at slams, and she was winning them at a far higher rate, before she was stabbed. That factors in to how we think about their careers. You know that, that's why you keep arguing about it.

Graff + Gunter = KNIFE NUMBER ONE

 

[Condoleezza]

.... But per Condi peak Graf can never lose. Whenever someone beats Graf she is playing at 70%, or 40%, so on. ....

Graf played only in a handful of matches good tennis and lost anyway (eg. Wimbledon 87 final, FO 92 final, AO 93 final).

But "good" is not "very good" or "outstanding".
Good is only 95 %.

100 % Graf was unbeatable (eg. Wimbledon 88 & 89, FO 88, Wimbledon 92, AO 94, USO 96 finals).
Period.


Condi

 

[Condoleezza]

Yes, but since Graf couldn't do it on the court, gunter had to do it with a knife.

What about

"In her two best years ever (1991/92) Seles
a) was 1-3 H2H against Graf
b) was 0-2 in Wimbledon wins against Graf
c) had a lower winning percentage than Graf in a 11-year period (1986-96)."

Didn't make it to your screen?

Condi

 

[alwaysatnet]

I think the gratuitous linking of Steffi Graf and the stabbing of Monica Seles by a crazed fan, as if Graf were complict in it, is a cheap shot and weakens the arguer's point. Going by sheer numbers one would have to give Graf the edge between the two though with Sele's tragic assault we can never get a final picture of how that duel might have ended. Based on the fact that Navratilova was dominant in doubles as well as singles I think you could make the case that she was the greatest player, of those three anyway. But then I seem to recall Graf dominating her to such a degree that she got into her head and Navratilova even began using Graf's type of racquet as if she could get some of her magic that way. In the final analysis there was so much back and forth domination you just have to pick the one you like best...Graf.

 

[Condoleezza]

I think the gratuitous linking of Steffi Graf and the stabbing of Monica Seles by a crazed fan, as if Graf were complict in it, is a cheap shot and weakens the arguer's point. Going by sheer numbers one would have to give Graf the edge between the two though with Sele's tragic assault we can never get a final picture of how that duel might have ended. Based on the fact that Navratilova was dominant in doubles as well as singles I think you could make the case that she was the greatest player, of those three anyway. But then I seem to recall Graf dominating her to such a degree that she got into her head and Navratilova even began using Graf's type of racquet as if she could get some of her magic that way. In the final analysis there was so much back and forth domination you just have to pick the one you like best...Graf.

Yes, indeed it is debatable who has had more success, Graf or Navratilova.
But if we add character and other intangibles like that a female GOAT should be powerful AND feminine at the same time, Graf gets the nod.
Young girls wanted and still want to be like Graf, not like Navratilova.

Condi

 

[ATPballkid]

I think the gratuitous linking of Steffi Graf and the stabbing of Monica Seles by a crazed fan, as if Graf were complict in it, is a cheap shot and weakens the arguer's point.

April 1993

Gunther Parche, a fanatical German supporter of #2 Steffi Graf, stabbed teenage phenom and women's #1 Monica Seles in the back with a knife when Seles had won 10 of the last 12 biggest events -- and 11 of the last 14 biggest events -- in women's tennis between 1990 and 1993.

9 months later ...

January 1994

A month before the XVII Winter Olympics were to begin in Lillehammer, Norway in February 1994, Tonya Harding's ex-husband, Jeff Gillooly, clubbed fellow female figure skater Nancy Kerrigan in the knee. In the end Nancy Kerrigan went on to win the silver medal, behind Oksana Baiul of the Ukraine. Tonya Harding finished 8th and was banned from the world of figure skating by the U.S. Figure Skating Association (USFSA) a few years later.

Tennis has always been more tolerant than other sports in terms of behavior.