Greatest Grass Player in Open Era to Never Win Wimbledon?

[helterskelter]

I think the OP ought to specify that, as seems clear, this is about who is the greatest player on grass/greatest player at Wimbledon who never won the title. It's a bit vague as worded. If it were greatest player overall to never win Wimbledon, then it would have to be Lendl, followed by Wilander. Wilander is clearly greater overall than any of Nastase, Rafter, or Roddick.

If it's on grass/at Wimbledon, then Roddick probably shades it out of these four. Nastase coming so close in 72 puts him in the conversation with Lendl for second, I think, even though Lendl's overall body of work was clearly superior. It's also relevant that, if it is "greatest on grass" rather than "greatest at Wimbledon," Nastase won the 72 US Open on grass.

Lendl 0 sets in 2 finals gets him behind Roddick.
Roddick OTOH put in 2 great performances vs Wimbledon GOAT and nemesis Fed.

Fair enough, though Lendl did put in a very good performance in the 89 semis against Becker, and Becker was playing very well indeed in that tournament.

Lendl still wasn't really playing great grass-court tennis in 86, and had a tough time simply making the final. Becker was again playing very well in 86, so it's no surprise that he won easily. In 87, Lendl was playing much better and had good wins against Leconte and Edberg coming in. I still think Edberg should regard that 87 SF loss as a bad loss. Still, I think Cash being on a good run of results against Lendl at that time played a part in the final being over in straight sets. Lendl had a good shot at winning either the first or third - he served for the third (as he did against Becker the year before, I think).

 

[TheGoldenEra1990’s]

rafter. He was a better player than Roddick

 

[Holmes]

rafter. He was a better player than Roddick

Roddick was hopeless. This is a guy who when the cup was being handed to him on a platter, took the platter.

 

[TheGoldenEra1990’s]

Roddick was hopeless. This is a guy who when the cup was being handed to him on a platter, he took the platter.

His net skills were so atrocious form someone with such a huge serve. Never understood why he couldn’t get a decent net game at least. Would have made all the difference in the world with his serve especially on grass

 

[Cashman]

Roddick is the most overrated grass player never to win Wimbledon.

Lendl was not a great grass player but the lawns he played on were much more difficult than the other three, and the competition much deeper.

However my personal pick is Rafter because he could volley

 

[FD3S]

Roddick by a hair between him and Lendl. While the grass field Lendl had to deal with during his Wimbledon runs may have been deeper in comparison to the early 2000s, Roddick faced by far the toughest singular challenge that both fields had to offer in Roger Federer and generally acquitted himself well in spite of the vast, vast talent gulf.

 

[Vincent-C]

Rafter, and by a long ways. I sure wish he had won that 2000 final- he was close, against probably the best fast
grass-courter ever. You are missed, Pat Rafter. Solid, solid.

 

[Holmes]

His net skills were so atrocious form someone with such a huge serve. Never understood why he couldn’t get a decent net game at least. Would have made all the difference in the world with his serve especially on grass

Roddick, skills, and net game are three concepts that rarely work in unison.

 

[Holmes]

Rafter, and by a long ways. I sure wish he had won that 2000 final- he was close, against probably the best fast
grass-courter ever. You are missed, Pat Rafter. Solid, solid.

Best grass-courter ever. Federer was beaten by his rivals in finals too often to warrant splitting the title into fast and slow, and before we go into the "poor 30 year old Federer" routine, Federer was in his 20s when Nadal showed him the door in 2008, and lucky that it didn't happen in 2007. Second, Rafter wasn't particularly close in 2000 against Pete, and third, that match was only tight because Pete was dealing with a leg injury throughout the tournament and still put Pat in his place. Yet another reason he is the GRASS (not fast grass) GOAT.

 

[Vincent-C]

Best grass-courter ever. Federer was beaten by his rivals in finals too often to warrant splitting the title into fast and slow, and before we go into the "poor 30 year old Federer" routine, Federer was in his 20s when Nadal showed him the door in 2008, and lucky that it didn't happen in 2007. Second, Rafter wasn't particularly close in 2000 against Pete, and third, that match was only tight because Pete was dealing with a leg injury throughout the tournament and still put Pat in his place. Yet another reason he is the GRASS (not fast grass) GOAT.

More special pleading..

yawn.

 

[TMF]

The answer is still Roddick. Without Federer the grass court GOAT , he would have won multiple Wimbledon

 

[Holmes]

More special pleading..

yawn.

More dismissive posting...

yawn.

 

[Holmes]

The answer is still Roddick. Without the grass court GOAT, he would have won multiple Wimbledon

The answer was never Roddick. The stars aligned perfectly for him in 2009, at his best ever as a player, all the pressure in the world on Federer because of the record, Federer playing poorly, multiple points for a 2 sets to love lead...and he still couldn't take advantage. Put Rafter or Lendl in that position and both are Wimbledon champs.

 

[TMF]

The answer was never Roddick. The stars aligned perfectly for him in 2009, at his best ever as a player, all the pressure in the world on Federer, Federer playing poorly, multiple points for a 2 sets to love lead...and he still couldn't take advantage. Put Rafter or Lendl in that position and both are Wimbledon champs.

That's your opinion Herald. Roddick was the most unlucky player who faced peak Federer on grass. No way Rafter or Lendl beat Federer unless they met old Fed in 2019

 

[Vincent-C]

Best grass-courter ever. Federer was beaten by his rivals in finals too often to warrant splitting the title into fast and slow, and before we go into the "poor 30 year old Federer" routine, Federer was in his 20s when Nadal showed him the door in 2008, and lucky that it didn't happen in 2007. Second, Rafter wasn't particularly close in 2000 against Pete, and third, that match was only tight because Pete was dealing with a leg injury throughout the tournament and still put Pat in his place. Yet another reason he is the GRASS (not fast grass) GOAT.

The Great Man lost to *all kinds of jamokes* in 2008, very likely because of his mononucleosis (I've had it, and it's a *****.) That he came close to winning a sixth Wimbledon in a row, against an [enhanced, ahem] future star is no discredit. Massive credit to Fred, too, for finishing 2008 with yet another USO title.

 

[buscemi]

That's your opinion Herald. Roddick was the most unlucky player who faced peak Federer on grass. No way Rafter or Lendl beat Federer unless they met old Fed in 2019

Depends on the grass. IMO, Rafter absolutely would have a shot to beat Federer on the faster grass. Their match at Halle in 2001 was a lot of fun. It was pre-prime Federer, but still a version of Fed that was about to take down Sampras at Wimbledon.

 

[Holmes]

The Great Man lost to *all kinds of jamokes* in 2008, very likely because of his mononucleosis (I've had it, and it's a *****.) That he came close to winning a sixth Wimbledon in a row, against an [enhanced, ahem] future star is no discredit. Massive credit to Fred, too, for finishing 2008 with yet another USO title.

More excuses. Federer had a career ending illness in 2008 yet somehow (likely due to his divinity) made 3 slam finals and even took one home. And of course, he was only beaten by his career Master because said Master was "enhanced".

Yawn.

 

[Hood_Man]

I have to give it to Roddick over Lendl. If not for Federer, Roddick would likely be a 4 time Wimbledon champion and the heir to Sampras.

 

[Holmes]

I have to give it to Roddick over Lendl. If not for Federer, Roddick would likely be a 4 time Wimbledon champion and the heir to Sampras.

The thought of Roddick having 4 Wimbledons is the stuff of nightmares.

 

[Mainad]

V

The thought of Roddick having 4 Wimbledons is the stuff of nightmares.

He does have 4 Queen's.

 

[Mainad]

Got to be Rosewall. 4 finals (1954,1956,1970,1974). Okay 2 of them were pre-OE but, still.

 

[fedfan24]

The answer was never Roddick. The stars aligned perfectly for him in 2009, at his best ever as a player, all the pressure in the world on Federer, Federer playing poorly, multiple points for a 2 sets to love lead...and he still couldn't take advantage. Put Rafter or Lendl in that position and both are Wimbledon champs.

Rafter would be lucky to win a set. Federer ate those type of players for breakfast.

 

[Pheasant]

I was going to take Roddick until some other posters brought up some great points about Rosewall. It's gotta be Rosewall by a country mile. Rosewall is so far ahead, that I think that he should be excluded, due to winning 3 slam titles in the Open era on grass surfaces; all past the age of 35. Rosewall's most impressive grass court slam title was the 1970 USO. From the QF-F, he beat 3 Hall of Famers in succession while dropping a total of 1 set in the process. And he was nearly 36 years old when he did this. This includes stomping peak Newcombe in straight sets in the semis, a guy that won 5 slam titles on grass courts in the Open ERA, including Wimbledon that very same year. Rosewall had a winning pct of .819 on grass court slam events, the best of the other candidates.

Lendl vs Roddick on grass gets very interesting for 2nd place. Roddick had one heck of a 3-year run from 2003-2005. IIRC, he was undefeated against everybody not named Federer during that span. Lendl was consistent with 7 Wimbledon semis in an 8 year span, including his heart-breaking 5-set loss to Becker in the 1989 Wimbledon semis.

Those two look like a coin-flip. It appears to be a longevity argument vs a peak argument. I'll take Roddick, simply because I like him more.

1. Rosewall
2. Roddick
3. Lendl

 

[buscemi]

Rafter would be lucky to win a set. Federer ate those type of players for breakfast.

Rafter was 3-0 against Federer, including 2 wins in 2001, with one coming on the grass at Halle just before Federer beat Sampras at Wimbledon. Sure, this wasn't prime Federer, but it was still a pretty good version.

IMO, if they played on fast grass at Wimbledon, Rafter would have his chances to win. His net game was much better than Federer's. And Rafter against Roddick on fast grass would be a straightforward win for Pat.

 

[ey039524]

Roddick was just a big server. Couldn't volley, so not a great grass court player. I voted for Rafter, who was a proper grass court player.

 

[The Guru]

I have to give it to Roddick over Lendl. If not for Federer, Roddick would likely be a 4 time Wimbledon champion and the heir to Sampras.

It annoys me that people say this like he walks through Hewitt in 04/05. Hewitt was 6-2 vs Rod before the hip problems and still took a prime Rod 5 at Wimbledon with a busted hip.

 

[fedfan24]

Rafter was 3-0 against Federer, including 2 wins in 2001, with one coming on the grass at Halle just before Federer beat Sampras at Wimbledon. Sure, this wasn't prime Federer, but it was still a pretty good version.

IMO, if they played on fast grass at Wimbledon, Rafter would have his chances to win. His net game was much better than Federer's. And Rafter against Roddick on fast grass would be a straightforward win for Pat.

Fair enough I was exaggerating a bit as I was responding to a known troll. I think prime Federer would be favoured with his superior serve and return game.

 

[buscemi]

Fair enough I was exaggerating a bit as I was responding to a known troll. I think prime Federer would be favoured with his superior serve and return game.

Yeah, I'd definitely have Federer as the favorite over Rafter, but I do give Pat a solid shot.

 

[mike danny]

Roddrick??? The guy that can’t serve and volley to save his life…

The guy has a big serve and that’s about it, you take that serve away and he’s finished

Taking someone's serve away on grass is the stupidest thing ever.

The guy that can't serve and volley to save his life....I can think of one 7-time champion who's never had to do that.

 

[mike danny]

I can't vote for Lendl since he lost a final in straights to....Pat Cash.

 

[mike danny]

Roddick is the most overrated grass player never to win Wimbledon.

Lendl was not a great grass player but the lawns he played on were much more difficult than the other three, and the competition much deeper.

However my personal pick is Rafter because he could volley

16-14 in the 5th disagrees with you.

 

[Vincent-C]

I can't vote for Lendl since he lost a final in straights to....Pat Cash.

That was a clinical performance from Cash, though (I'm not a fan of his).
Credit where due.

 

[mike danny]

That was a clinical performance from Cash, though (I'm not a fan of his).
Credit where due.

Still, these kinds of finals should be winnable.

 

[RS]

It annoys me that people say this like he walks through Hewitt in 04/05. Hewitt was 6-2 vs Rod before the hip problems and still took a prime Rod 5 at Wimbledon with a busted hip.

People often say 1-1 split Roddick 04 win Hewitt 05 win

 

[Pheasant]

That was a clinical performance from Cash, though (I'm not a fan of his).
Credit where due.

Yes, very true on all counts. I never liked the guy. But he swept Wilander, Connors, and Lendl in straight sets and in that exact order to bag the title. That is a strong field.

 

[buscemi]

I can't vote for Lendl since he lost a final in straights to....Pat Cash.

Cash was on fire in that final. The bigger indictment of Ivan for me was getting smoked in straight sets by Wilander in his non-Wimbldeon Major grass court final -- 1983 Australian Open -- 6-1, 6-4, 6-4.

 

[FD3S]

People often say 1-1 split Roddick 04 win Hewitt 05 win

That's how I would score too it in all honesty, 100% wouldn't be an easy pair of matches for either man though. Those would've been wars.

 

[Hood_Man]

It annoys me that people say this like he walks through Hewitt in 04/05. Hewitt was 6-2 vs Rod before the hip problems and still took a prime Rod 5 at Wimbledon with a busted hip.

Their grass head to head is literally 3-0 to Roddick, come on now.

 

[The Guru]

Their grass head to head is literally 3-0 to Roddick, come on now.

Two of those are against hip Hewitt and they're a 5 setter and a match where Roddick won two TBs. That's really supposed to be convincing proof about what would happen in a Wimbledon final against prime Hewitt. Come on now.

 

[Holmes]

Rafter would be lucky to win a set. Federer ate those type of players for breakfast.

Federer greatly struggled with the serve and volley player with spinnier serves and wide net coverage. Guys like Henman and Rafter used their relatively slower, higher kicking serves to give Federer a headache off the return and give themselves time to close. Btw, Federer has a losing record to Rafter, and he also struggled with Henman who is a lesser version of Rafter.

 

[Holmes]

I can't vote for Lendl since he lost a final in straights to....Pat Cash.

Pat Cash is easily a top 10 volleyer in history.

 

[Holmes]

16-14 in the 5th disagrees with you.

Actually it agrees perfectly with him.

 

[Holmes]

Taking someone's serve away on grass is the stupidest thing ever.

The guy that can't serve and volley to save his life....I can think of one 7-time champion who's never had to do that.

Djokovic is far better at net than Roddick could ever hope to be. If you had to pick between him and Roddick to finish a high backhand volley to save your life, you know you're picking Novak.

 

[Holmes]

Fair enough I was exaggerating a bit as I was responding to a known troll. I think prime Federer would be favoured with his superior serve and return game.

Your name is literally a testament to your bias.

 

[RS]

16-14 in the 5th disagrees with you.

It tells us that the much better Roddick in the USO 03 final schools Fed Wim 09 final.

 

[Holmes]

It tells us that the much better Roddick in the USO 03 final schools Fed Wim 09 final.

2004 Wimbledon final 1st set Roddick v 2009 Wimbledon final 1st set Federer?

 

[Cashman]

16-14 in the 5th disagrees with you.

Great bot

Not so great grass player

 

[Holmes]

Great bot

Not so great grass player

Umpteenth set points to go up 2 sets to love, flubbed a not particularly difficult backhand volley on one of them. Of course winning from 2 sets to love up is still no certainty for Roddick, but to not even GET there when Federer was begging to be put out of his misery?

 

[FD3S]

Umpteenth set points to go up 2 sets to love, flubbed a not particularly difficult backhand volley on one of them. Of course winning from 2 sets to love up is still no certainty for Roddick, but to not even GET there when Federer was begging to be put out of his misery?

I believe I brought this up to you back in the days when you were Herald and more interested in actually discussing tennis as opposed to backhandedly trolling but I'll gladly bring it back up because it needs to be said - the bolded? It can happen to any player under pressure, no matter how great or talented; it's not the slam dunk that A-Rod detractors think it is. Roddick bricked a slightly tricky BH volley (Fed didn't hit it 100% clean) that a better net player would've handled better, true. A choke? Sure, but for all the flak it gets that's not even the worst net choke at Wimbledon. The volley that Borg (an all time great) missed to give McEnroe their legendary TB? A routine one he probably makes in his sleep under normal circumstances. The shot Sampras (another all time great) absolutely massacred on BP to let Federer serve for the third in their Wimbledon QF? A high ball off a weak return that Pete had spent an entire career punishing in a multitude of ways. Both were far and away superior players to Roddick and yet both still blinked in the heat of the moment. It's sports, it happens.

 

[Holmes]

I believe I brought this up to you back in the days when you were Herald and more interested in actually discussing tennis as opposed to backhandedly trolling but I'll gladly bring it back up because it needs to be said - the bolded? It can happen to any player under pressure, no matter how great or talented; it's not the slam dunk that A-Rod detractors think it is. Roddick bricked a slightly tricky BH volley (Fed didn't hit it 100% clean) that a better net player would've handled better, true. A choke? Sure, but for all the flak it gets that's not even the worst net choke at Wimbledon. The volley that Borg (an all time great) missed to give McEnroe their legendary TB? A routine one he probably makes in his sleep under normal circumstances. The shot Sampras (another all time great) absolutely massacred on BP to let Federer serve for the third in their Wimbledon QF? A high ball off a weak return that Pete had spent an entire career punishing in a multitude of ways. Both were far and away superior players to Roddick and yet both still blinked in the heat of the moment. It's sports, it happens.

It's sad to have to deal with posters who lead with ad hominem to gain handle in an argument. Fortunately I learned long ago not to feed such trolls, so you'll need to derive your sustenance elsewhere.