Greatest Grass Player in Open Era to Never Win Wimbledon?

Best Grass Player to never win a Wimbledon Title? (Open Era)

  • Andy Roddick

    Votes: 64 47.1%
  • Ivan Lendl

    Votes: 34 25.0%
  • Ilie Năstase

    Votes: 3 2.2%
  • Patrick Rafter

    Votes: 35 25.7%

  • Total voters
    136

ballamaz

Rookie
Roddick is the "greatest" grass court player (by achievements) not to win W.

Rafter is 2x greater than Roddick in general.

Lendl is 8x greater than Roddick in general.

Subjectively, Rafter is the "best" grass court player out of this group.
 

buscemi

Legend
Roddick is the "greatest" grass court player (by achievements) not to win W.
I disagree. Rosewall won six grass Majors (three in the Open Era).

Nastase won the U.S. Open on grass and lost Wimbledon finals to Borg and Smith (in a tight five setter).

Tanner won the Australian Open on grass and lost a tight five set final to Borg at Wimbledon.

Tough to say Roddick is the "greatest" grass court player not to win Wimbledon when a bunch of guys won actual grass court Majors.
 

chuckersthenut

Hall of Fame
Whatever happened to him?
I heard he is about to try a comeback. He had a litany of injuries. But I believe it was his ankle or possibly Achilles that needed surgery. I imagine he is waiting behind s-Hertosenbosch center court and will just appear again beating 4 top 25 players including a world no. 4.
 

ballamaz

Rookie
I disagree. Rosewall won six grass Majors (three in the Open Era).

Nastase won the U.S. Open on grass and lost Wimbledon finals to Borg and Smith (in a tight five setter).

Tanner won the Australian Open on grass and lost a tight five set final to Borg at Wimbledon.

Tough to say Roddick is the "greatest" grass court player not to win Wimbledon when a bunch of guys won actual grass court Majors.

Correct, so Nastase & Tanner are the greatest for this academic question. Rosewall is not part of the discussion, see OP.

Questions to do with greatness / GOAT are actually easy to answer. Just need to look up their achievements.
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
Roddick is the most hated player at TTW, yet he received the most votes. This further confirm that Roddick is the best and greatest grass court player to never win Wimbledon
 

Holmes

Hall of Fame
Roddick is the most hated player at TTW, yet he received the most votes. This further confirm that Roddick is the best and greatest grass court player to never win Wimbledon
Djokovic is the most hated player in the media, yet he receives the most votes from former pros as being the GOAT, proving he is the GOAT.
 

ibbi

G.O.A.T.
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fd22d94039c736d2936e4c2d673ab0e2.jpg
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
The open era began in 1968, not 2000. Between 68-74, Ken won 3 grass court slams and reached 2 other grass court slam finals. Roddick won 0 grass court slams.

yeah, thanks Genius. if you hadn't said so, wouldn't have known

Also without you saying so, wouldn't have known Lendl was post 2000.

P.S. I was only considering pure open era players.
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
But wasn't he the last guy of that group to play at Wimbledon? The most recent for the four?
Roddick retire 12 years ago. You can only be a product of recency bias when you're still active(e.g. Nole, Lebron, etc..)
 

Hitman

Bionic Poster
Roddick retire 12 years ago. You can only be a product of recency bias when you're still active(e.g. Nole, Lebron, etc..)

He has the most recency bias, as many new fans didn't watch the other three play. Anyone who saw Federer's era, saw Roddick.

So, have to disagree with you, many here weren't watching tennis when even Rafter was playing.
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
He has the most recency bias, as many new fans didn't watch the other three play. Anyone who saw Federer's era, saw Roddick.

So, have to disagree with you, many here weren't watching tennis when even Rafter was playing.
I disagree.

You can't remember something over so many years ago. Recency bias can only exist at the present time since current event(s) are fresh in their memory.

Also media hype only active player, to promote the sport, have stories to say/write, boost rating, making money. Simple as that
 

Hitman

Bionic Poster
I disagree.

You can't remember something over so many years ago. Recency bias can only exist at the present time since current event(s) are fresh in their memory.

Also media hype only active player, to promote the sport, have stories to say/write, boost rating, making money. Simple as that

Are you telling me that people have forgotten Federer? Because that is basically what you are saying...since Federer is the guy who beat Roddick in three W finals and a semi.
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
Are you telling me that people have forgotten Federer? Because that is basically what you are saying...since Federer is the guy who beat Roddick in three W finals and a semi.
Federer also play Henman, do you expect fans remember Henman as much as Federer? Come on man. Irrelevant to compare the most celebrated superstar[Federer] to any lower tier player.

My point still stand, recency bias occur to only active player
 

Hitman

Bionic Poster
Federer also play Henman, do you expect fans remember Henman as much as Federer? Come on man. Irrelevant to compare the most celebrated superstar[Federer] to any lower tier player.

My point still stand, recency bias occur to only active player

Federer didn't play Henman in multiple Wimbledon finals. They didn't even play one semi.

You know there is recency bias here my friend, because Federer is still very much fresh in everyone's memories, and everyone knows who he played at Wimbledon. His biggest rivals there included Djokovic, Nadal and Roddick. You think people forgot that it was Roddick who was playing Federer, when Federer broke the slam record in 2009.

Your point doesn't stand with me, recency bias doesn't mean it has to be about someone who is active. Djokovic will still be called the GOAT by many even when he retires, if he has the records.

Most people were not even alive when Lendl played, or were in their diapers. Many don't recall Rafter's career, as what he did was also over two decades ago.

Roddick though was a massive part of the Federer Wimbledon era. Recency bias will play a part.
 

Holmes

Hall of Fame
Federer didn't play Henman in multiple Wimbledon finals. They didn't even play one semi.

You know there is recency bias here my friend, because Federer is still very much fresh in everyone's memories, and everyone knows who he played at Wimbledon. His biggest rivals there included Djokovic, Nadal and Roddick. You think people forgot that it was Roddick who was playing Federer, when Federer broke the slam record in 2009.

Your point doesn't stand with me, recency bias doesn't mean it has to be about someone who is active. Djokovic will still be called the GOAT by many even when he retires, if he has the records.

Most people were not even alive when Lendl played, or were in their diapers. Many don't recall Rafter's career, as what he did was also over two decades ago.

Roddick though was a massive part of the Federer Wimbledon era. Recency bias will play a part.
I admire your dedication and idealism. *salute*
 

Holmes

Hall of Fame
Federer also play Henman, do you expect fans remember Henman as much as Federer? Come on man. Irrelevant to compare the most celebrated superstar[Federer] to any lower tier player.

My point still stand, recency bias occur to only active player
This is not what recency bias is. Please stop supplanting the truth with...whatever this is.
 

timnz

Legend
So Ken Rosewall isn't in the discussion.....

Andy Roddick
3 Finals, all to Federer
Additional Semifinal loss to Federer
4 Titles at Queens

Ivan Lendl
2 Finals, Cash & Becker
5 Semifinals, McEnroe(w), Connors, Becker x2 (1w), Edberg (w)
2 Titles at Queens

Ilie Năstase
Won U.S. Open when played on grass
2 Finals, Borg & Smith
Additional quarterfinal loss to Borg
1 Title at Queens

Patrick Rafter
2 Finals, Sampras & Ivanisevic
Additional Semifinal loss to Agassi, 4th round losses to Henman & Ivanisevic
4 Grass Titles
To Lendl you could add runner up at Australian open on grass In 83 and AO semis in 85 (very narrow loss to Edberg) and 87.

so that makes it 10 times semi or better at a grass slam tournament
 

Drob

Hall of Fame
Rosewall won 4 slams and 2 WCT finals in the open era. He also reached 4 other finals as well as winning about 35 other tournaments, all this after turning 33. He had a YE ranking of #12 in 1977 at the age of 43. Laver won his last slam after just turning 31 in 1969 and never reached a slam final after that.

He did not play that many.

I would never want to pit these mates against each other (except on a tennis court). But your post gave me the feel you were demeaning Laver in comparison to Rosewall. They had different strengths and much different paths or trajectories. Both were unique - Rosewall uniquely young and old champion; Laver uniquely dazzling game and five-year dominance.



laver_rosewall.jpg


Between 1970-74, by which time he was now 36, Rocket played a TOTAL of six slams. In some cases choice, in some cases he prohibited from participation or had to uphold a vital labor boycott. Wimby and USO in '70; AO and Wimby in '71; USO in '72 and '73; zero in '74. In the Open Era, Laver won about 20 Masters 1000 equivalent or better titles, plus arguable Majors at Tennis Champions Classic and the true world clay court championship of 1971 - The Internazionali d' Italia. Laver won approximately 70 tournaments in the Open era. Laver's overall record compares very favorably with Rosewall, IMO, except for the important point that Ken was four years older. In the Open era, Ken won five or six M 1000 - like tournaments, not including the Slam and slam-like tournaments you cite. Kenny turned 35 at the end of the 1969 season. He then had five Slams (I count the WCT Finals). That exceeds Federer (3) and Nadal (2). It is about equal to Djokovic (4 plus one undefeated YEC). He trails only Tilden, at seven after 35 (US Nat'l, Wimbledon, two WCS, two US Pro, French Pro). Bill also has the finals - at age 42, he lost the Wembley final to Vines, at 6-1 6-3 5-7 3-6 6-3. Let's say Djokovic is down but not out. The over-35 GOATs will be Rosewall, Tilden and Djokovic, not in any particular order. A little behind them will be Segura, Gonzalez, Federer, Nadal.

For the 30-35 cohort, you have Djokovic first, then Tilden and then several: Laver, Gonzalez, Rosewall, Agassi, Nadal, Federer, and a whole bunch more (Segura, Kramer, Johnston, Drobny, Borotra, Ashe, Gimeno, Emerson, Perry, Cochet, Wawrinka, et al.)

Laver at age 33 was World No. 1. He was still No. 1 at 33 and five months, at the end of 1971, in the opinion of many, myself included, and also including TB and UTS. He has been eclipsed as oldest No. 1 by Djokovic, and, maybe, Tilden in 1930-31 (it is debatable), or, even Federer in 2017 maybe (I am talking year-end No. 1). But the only way to make Laver look burned out in his mid 30s is by comparing him w Djokovic, or maybe Rosewall.

But, really, I never like putting Laver and Rosewall against each other. Their trajectories were so different. Rosewall was a prodigy, a world champion at age 18. He spent a lot of years somewhat underrated but very successful and steady, until he took over the throne from the retired Richard Gonzalez in 1962. Kenny was then 27 years old, thereabouts. He was No. 1 perhaps three years until overtaken by Laver. Laver dazzled and Kenny kept on as always. And he did outlast Laver. It is a very singular career. To be a Slam champ in 1953 and in 1972. It is a longer span than Tilden (barely), and beats the Big Three by two or three years or so.

Laver was not a prodigy. He did not get his game together until about age 23. Even when he took over as No. 1 in 1965, he was not yet complete - that came the following season. And then, for those who like five year peaks, Laver had about the greatest ever, starting maybe late 1965 and through mid-1971. He had two Grand Slams in that time (1967 - US Pro, Wembley, French Pro, Wimbledon Pro; and 1969 of course). Between the start of 1966 and the 1970 Tennis Champions Classic, Laver won 13 of 16 majors he played (finishing runnerup at 1966 French Pro, 1968 French Open, and losing in the 4th Rd at '68 USO)

Having finished 1971 No. 1, at age 33, he did start to drop off. But he was still winning elite titles.

The Laver-Rosewall competition was on the court. I like to think of them in harmony now. Rosewall, the longest effective career of any player, and the most Major titles of any player (27 by my count). Laver very possibly the most dynamic game ever seen. Three Grand Slams. The most tournament titles of any player and the most elite (non-Major) titles of any player with the probable exception of Djokovic. When you add non-Slam elite titles to Kenny's haul of majors, he is not so far behind. Laver has about 46 elite titles (non-Slam), and Rosewall about 36. But Rosewall has more Majors, 27 to 23. And Laver is tops in titles by a lot, but Rosewall is third.

I would never want to pit these two against each other. They were both the best.
 

Drob

Hall of Fame
So Ken Rosewall isn't in the discussion.....

Andy Roddick
3 Finals, all to Federer
Additional Semifinal loss to Federer
4 Titles at Queens

Ivan Lendl
2 Finals, Cash & Becker
5 Semifinals, McEnroe(w), Connors, Becker x2 (1w), Edberg (w)
2 Titles at Queens

Ilie Năstase
Won U.S. Open when played on grass
2 Finals, Borg & Smith
Additional quarterfinal loss to Borg
1 Title at Queens

Patrick Rafter
2 Finals, Sampras & Ivanisevic
Additional Semifinal loss to Agassi, 4th round losses to Henman & Ivanisevic
4 Grass Titles

You inspired me w an idea - check out thread on Former Player's Forum - "Ban and Boycott - Who Would Have Won Lost Wimbledons? Vote and opine
 

Drob

Hall of Fame
I disagree. Rosewall won six grass Majors (three in the Open Era).

Nastase won the U.S. Open on grass and lost Wimbledon finals to Borg and Smith (in a tight five setter).

Tanner won the Australian Open on grass and lost a tight five set final to Borg at Wimbledon.

Tough to say Roddick is the "greatest" grass court player not to win Wimbledon when a bunch of guys won actual grass court Majors.

Rosewall for sure? I think the thread intro implicitly acknowledges that the answer is Rosewall.

But, technically, it is


GonzalezSmokeLife.aspx



of course he only had one actual chance, in 1949.


Nastase 68.60% match win percentage on grasss Won only three grass tournaments out of 40 in which he competed. Per TB.


I'd say, maybe:

Gonzalez
Rosewall
Roddick
von Cramm
Lendl
Browmwich
Rafter
Roche
Nastase
 
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