Greatest men’s indoor player - open era

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timnz

Legend
What are people’s lists for greatest indoor player open era ?

‘Major’ indoor titles - Grand Prix masters or masters cup, wct finals, grand slam cup ITF season end finals

1st equal / Lendl and McEnroe - 7 and 8 ‘major’ indoor titles respectively. Lendl was unbeaten indoor from late 81 to early 83. McEnroe indoor titles 52

3 equal Sampras - 7 ‘major’ indoor titles; Federer - 6 ‘major’ indoor titles 4 runner-ups

5/ Djokovic - 6 ‘major’ indoor titles 2 runner ups

6/ Becker - 5 ‘major’ indoor titles . Only man to win all 3 of the ‘major’ indoor titles

7/ Connors - 3 ‘major’ indoor titles.Open era record holder with 55 indoor titles
 
I think we'd have to include Nastase, who won all four of the WTFs he played indoors (the 1974 version he lost in the final was outdoors).
 
crabgrass said:
Who do you think was the greatest ever indoors player?

My vote would go to Ivan Lendl.
my reasoning would be he absolutely dominated the worlds biggest indoor event the end of year masters back when it was played exclusively at maddison square garden.
winning the title a record 5 times and making an incredible 9 consecutive finals from 1980-1988.
He would go on to make 12 consecutive semifinal appearences from 1980-91,
this includes when the tornament relocated to germany in the early '90s.
In total he won 33 career ATP indoor titles, which i'd assume is also a record.
From october 1981 through to january 1983 he was unbeaten in 66 consecutive indoor matches.
His record in other major indoor tornaments of the day was just as impressive:
5 times champion at the seiko super tennis tornament,
5 times champion at the european champions championship (million dollar diamond and gold raquet to anyone who won this event 3 times in 5 years,
lendl was the only player to achieve that feat),
twice champion at the wct dallas finals, 2 us pro indoor titles in philly, 1 us national indoor title, 3 times champion at the australia indoor, 3 times champion at the benson & hedges london indoor at wembley.
I cant see anyone else really challenging this level of succsess,
for me the closest contenders would be boris becker a 3 time end of year masters champ and 8 time finalist who also had some epic davis cup wins indoors most notably against the swedes and mcenroe.
speaking of mcenroe he should also be mentioned here as a 3 time end of year masters champion and going by memory i think he won 5 wct dallas titles.
The last serious contender would have to be sampras who ties lendl with 5 year end masters titles.
Not sure where the older generation of players fit in here, so if anyone has any relevent information regarding indoor titles spanning the tilden through to laver era's please feel free to post it here.
Click to expand...
 
I despised McEnroe because my guy was Ivan. But no question Mac was the greatest indoor player in the OE. Though Connors won 56 indoor titles to Mac's 52, many of Jimmy's indoor titles were weak fields. How can we put Lendl ahead of Mac when he won 10 fewer indoor titles?

Greatest level indoors would be Becker, Pete and Fed in that order and I saw all play indoors live. Boris was unbelievable! I wish Fed had played more on carpet, he would have been destroying Djokovic on that surface even in 2019.
 
timnz said:
What are people’s lists for greatest indoor player open era ?

‘Major’ indoor titles - Grand Prix masters or masters cup, wct finals, grand slam cup ITF season end finals

1st equal / Lendl and McEnroe - 7 and 8 ‘major’ indoor titles respectively. Lendl was unbeaten indoor from late 81 to early 83. McEnroe indoor titles 52

3 equal Sampras - 7 ‘major’ indoor titles; Federer - 6 ‘major’ indoor titles 4 runner-ups

5/ Djokovic - 6 ‘major’ indoor titles 2 runner ups

6/ Becker - 5 ‘major’ indoor titles . Only man to win all 3 of the ‘major’ indoor titles

7/ Connors - 3 ‘major’ indoor titles.Open era record holder with 55 indoor titles
Click to expand...
This is a pretty good list...Lendl always comes to mind first, Mac a very close 2nd. Becker great indoors; Connors very underrated...cause his contemporaries were just SO good
 
I love how indoors seem to be the only set of conditions (not sure if we can call it a ‘surface’) where at least five guys have an argument for being the best :)
 
BeatlesFan said:
I despised McEnroe because my guy was Ivan. But no question Mac was the greatest indoor player in the OE. Though Connors won 56 indoor titles to Mac's 52, many of Jimmy's indoor titles were weak fields. How can we put Lendl ahead of Mac when he won 10 fewer indoor titles?

Greatest level indoors would be Becker, Pete and Fed in that order and I saw all play indoors live. Boris was unbelievable! I wish Fed had played more on carpet, he would have been destroying Djokovic on that surface even in 2019.
Click to expand...
There were quite a few unofficial but still important titles - like the European community championships which Lendl won 5 times to mcenroes 2 times
 
I found these stats:

Highest indoor winning percentages. Don't know if they're accurate:

McEnroe: 419-72 (85.3%)
Lendl: 341-70 (83%)
Connors: 469-103 (82%)
Borg: 216-52 (80.6%)
Federer: 216-52 (80.6%)
Becker: 297-75 (79.8%)
Sampras: 213-61 (77.7%)
 
buscemi said:
I found these stats:

Highest indoor winning percentages. Don't know if they're accurate:

McEnroe: 419-72 (85.3%)
Lendl: 341-70 (83%)
Connors: 469-103 (82%)
Borg: 216-52 (80.6%)
Federer: 216-52 (80.6%)
Becker: 297-75 (79.8%)
Sampras: 213-61 (77.7%)
Click to expand...
The usual suspects....breaking 80% is pretty tremendous....and Connors w/469 matches...wow.
 
timnz said:
What are people’s lists for greatest indoor player open era ?

‘Major’ indoor titles - Grand Prix masters or masters cup, wct finals, grand slam cup ITF season end finals

1st equal / Lendl and McEnroe - 7 and 8 ‘major’ indoor titles respectively. Lendl was unbeaten indoor from late 81 to early 83. McEnroe indoor titles 52

3 equal Sampras - 7 ‘major’ indoor titles; Federer - 6 ‘major’ indoor titles 4 runner-ups

5/ Djokovic - 6 ‘major’ indoor titles 2 runner ups

6/ Becker - 5 ‘major’ indoor titles . Only man to win all 3 of the ‘major’ indoor titles

7/ Connors - 3 ‘major’ indoor titles.Open era record holder with 55 indoor titles
Click to expand...
Fed has 4 major indoor tile unless you are counting Wimbledon final 12 .
 
WCT said:
I didn't realize, or maybe I forgot, that Mcenroe had such a long winning streak indoors.
Click to expand...
The weird thing is that even though McEnroe was one of the two best indoor players in the open era - Borg (best surface clay) had a superior H2H against McEnroe indoors.
 
Mac, Lendl, Becker and Sampras stand out to me pre Fed era.

At best:

Mac in 84, best year maybe ever in tennis capped off by trouncing of Lendl at Masters.

Lendl in 86, straight setter off a hot Becker at Masters cementing #1 status.

Becker in 88 with classic 5 set victory over Lendl at Masters; then 96 run late in career with victories over Pete in Stuttgart final and ATP Championships RR before falling in 5 set classic to Sampras.

Sampras in 96, beating top form Becker in that atmosphere in Germany could have been his greatest victory.
 
dryeagle said:
Mac, Lendl, Becker and Sampras stand out to me pre Fed era.

At best:

Mac in 84, best year maybe ever in tennis capped off by trouncing of Lendl at Masters.

Lendl in 86, straight setter off a hot Becker at Masters cementing #1 status.

Becker in 88 with classic 5 set victory over Lendl at Masters; then 96 run late in career with victories over Pete in Stuttgart final and ATP Championships RR before falling in 5 set classic to Sampras.

Sampras in 96, beating top form Becker in that atmosphere in Germany could have been his greatest victory.
Click to expand...
I believe those few months in late 96 were absolute peak Becker. From stuttgart through to the December grand slam cup
 
timnz said:
I believe those few months in late 96 were absolute peak Becker. From stuttgart through to the December grand slam cup
Click to expand...
The only matches he lost in that stretch were the epic WTF final to Sampras, a match against Enqvist in the WTF RR, which he was almost certainly tanking b/c he had already qualified for the SF, and a match against Moya in Bercy.

Fast forward a few months, and he draws, and loses to, #25 Moya in a five set first round match at the Australian Open, where he was the defending champion. Moya would go on to make the final against Sampras. Back when there were only 16 seeds, seeded players could get brutal draws in the first round, but this might be the worst ever. Becker probably beats anyone else he draws in the first round, and, if he had gotten past Moya, he probably makes the final.
 
BorgTheGOAT said:
I don’t see any version of Mac beating either Becker or Pete from the 96 YEC final.
Click to expand...
Maybe McEnroe from Brussels-WCT Finals in 1984:

Brussels:
Mayotte, 6-1, 6-1
Ostoja, 6-1, 6-2
Kriek, 6-3, 6-1
Hogstedt, 6-3, 6-1
Lendl, 6-1, 6-3

WCT Finals:
Gerulaitis, 6-3, 6-1, 6-3
Curren, 6-3, 6-3, 6-4
Connors, 6-1, 6-2, 6-3

He was basically unplayable.
 
Last edited:
buscemi said:
Maybe McEnroe from Brussels-WCT Finals in 1984:

Brussels:
Mayotte, 6-1, 6-1
Ostoja, 6-1, 6-2
Kriek, 6-3, 6-1
Hogstedt, 6-3, 6-1
Lendl, 6-1, 6-3

WCT Finals:
Gerulaitis, 6-3, 6-1, 6-3
Curren, 6-3, 6-3, 6-4
Connors, 6-1, 6-2, 6-3

He was basically unplayable.
Click to expand...
I'm with you about that year.
 
buscemi said:
I found these stats:

Highest indoor winning percentages. Don't know if they're accurate:

McEnroe: 419-72 (85.3%)
Lendl: 341-70 (83%)
Connors: 469-103 (82%)
Borg: 216-52 (80.6%)
Federer: 216-52 (80.6%)
Becker: 297-75 (79.8%)
Sampras: 213-61 (77.7%)
Click to expand...
Some slight differences per ATP Website

McEnroe 423-73 .853
Lendl 341-70 .830
Connors 487-110 .816
Federer 298-70 .810
Borg 224-54 .806
Becker 297-75 .798
Sampras 213-61 .777

Other notable stat:
Djokovic 186-48 .795
 
Ultimate Tennis Statistics for same group of players in same order:

McEnroe 418-71 .855
Lendl 340-69 .831
Connors 494-106 .823
Federer 269-68 .798
Borg 226-55 .804
Becker 293-74 .798
Sampras 210-61 .775

And Djokovic 159-43 .787
 
I found this from an old posting by KG1965 on the greatest Indoor Events - thanks KG1965!:

ATP Finals (ex Matsters Grand Prix)
Masters WCT - Dallas
US Pro Indoor - Philadelphia
Grand Slam Cup - Munich
Stockholm Open
Tokyo Seiko
Wembley Championships - London
European Community Ch. - Antwerp (no ATP)
Challenge of Champions - Rosemont Chicago (no ATP)
Molson Invitational - Montreal / Toronto (no ATP)
Pacific Coast Ch. - San Francisco
US National - Salisbury / Memphis
US Int. Indoor - Birmingham
ABN AMRO - Rotterdam
Milan Indoor

I will sort them into these 3 categories

1/ Season End Finals ('Majors' of Indoor tennis)

ATP Finals (ex Masters Grand Prix)
WCT Finals Dallas
Grand Slam Cup Munich

2/ Important ATP Sanctioned Indoor Tournaments

US Pro Indoor
Stockholm Open
Wembley Championships
Milan Indoor
Rotterdam
Birmingham
US national
Pacific Coast Championships
Tokyo Seiko


3/ Important Non-ATP sanctioned indoor tournaments

Molson Invitational - Montreal/Toronto
Rosemont Chicago
European Community Championships - Antwerp

I'll put to together a list of how our contenders for the Open Era Indoor Master player went in wins at these events.

question - what about the Suntory cup. 4 man event yes - but elite players
 
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timnz said:
I found this from an old posting by KG1965 on the greatest Indoor Events - thanks KG1965!:

ATP Finals (ex Matsters Grand Prix)
Masters WCT - Dallas
US Pro Indoor - Philadelphia
Grand Slam Cup - Munich
Stockholm Open
Tokyo Seiko
Wembley Championships - London
European Community Ch. - Antwerp (no ATP)
Challenge of Champions - Rosemont Chicago (no ATP)
Molson Invitational - Montreal / Toronto (no ATP)
Pacific Coast Ch. - San Francisco
US National - Salisbury / Memphis
US Int. Indoor - Birmingham
ABN AMRO - Rotterdam
Milan Indoor

I will sort them into these 3 categories

1/ Season End Finals ('Majors' of Indoor tennis)

ATP Finals (ex Masters Grand Prix)
WCT Finals Dallas
Grand Slam Cup Munich

2/ Important ATP Sanctioned Indoor Tournaments

US Pro Indoor
Stockholm Open
Wembley Championships
Milan Indoor
Rotterdam
Birmingham
US national
Pacific Coast Championships
Tokyo Seiko


3/ Important Non-ATP sanctioned indoor tournaments

Molson Invitational - Montreal/Toronto
Rosemont Chicago
European Community Championships - Antwerp

I'll put to together a list of how our contenders for the Open Era Indoor Master player went in wins at these events.

question - what about the Suntory cup. 4 man event yes - but elite players
Click to expand...
3 clarifications:
1) US National Indoor has become a top indoor event since moving to Memphis (1977). Salisbury was the best tournament on the Riordan's circuit (IPA) but was a Master 250-500,
2) Birmingham became important from 1977, first it was a poor M250,
3) Pacific Coast ch. has become a top indoor event since moving to San Francisco (1974).
 
BeatlesFan said:
I despised McEnroe because my guy was Ivan. But no question Mac was the greatest indoor player in the OE. Though Connors won 56 indoor titles to Mac's 52, many of Jimmy's indoor titles were weak fields. How can we put Lendl ahead of Mac when he won 10 fewer indoor titles?

Greatest level indoors would be Becker, Pete and Fed in that order and I saw all play indoors live. Boris was unbelievable! I wish Fed had played more on carpet, he would have been destroying Djokovic on that surface even in 2019.
Click to expand...
My problem with indoor carpet is the low bounce which McEnroe an advantage with his continental grip, particularly on the forehand
 
buscemi said:
Maybe McEnroe from Brussels-WCT Finals in 1984:

Brussels:
Mayotte, 6-1, 6-1
Ostoja, 6-1, 6-2
Kriek, 6-3, 6-1
Hogstedt, 6-3, 6-1
Lendl, 6-1, 6-3

WCT Finals:
Gerulaitis, 6-3, 6-1, 6-3
Curren, 6-3, 6-3, 6-4
Connors, 6-1, 6-2, 6-3

He was basically unplayable.
Click to expand...
I wish there were some Kriek/McEnroe matches on youtube
 
dryeagle said:
Mac, Lendl, Becker and Sampras stand out to me pre Fed era.

At best:

Mac in 84, best year maybe ever in tennis capped off by trouncing of Lendl at Masters.

Lendl in 86, straight setter off a hot Becker at Masters cementing #1 status.

Becker in 88 with classic 5 set victory over Lendl at Masters; then 96 run late in career with victories over Pete in Stuttgart final and ATP Championships RR before falling in 5 set classic to Sampras.

Sampras in 96, beating top form Becker in that atmosphere in Germany could have been his greatest victory.
Click to expand...
That or his, practically alone, defeating the Russians in Davis Cup Final on a very slow clay court in Moscow.
 
McEnroe, Becker and Sampras defined what men's indoor tennis should be; their games were perfectly suited to surgically dismantling opponents under those conditions.
 
THUNDERVOLLEY said:
McEnroe, Becker and Sampras defined what men's indoor tennis should be; their games were perfectly suited to surgically dismantling opponents under those conditions.
Click to expand...
How did Sampras lose his only Masters Cup final in 1993 to Michael Stich?
:unsure:
 
DSH said:
How did Sampras lose his only Masters Cup final in 1993 to Michael Stich?
:unsure:
Click to expand...
Because Stich could reach an incredibly high peak level in individual matches/tournaments. On top, Pete was not the most consistent on carpet (losing a RR match in all of his 5 YEC wins, being 2-5 on carpet at DC, “only” having a 77% winning percentage), but at his very best he was practically unbeatable.
Edit: Small correction/addition on Pete: His 1997 YEC was in indoor hard and not carpet .
 
Last edited:
DSH said:
How did Sampras lose his only Masters Cup final in 1993 to Michael Stich?
:unsure:
Click to expand...
Like Krajicek, Stich was a tough matchup for Sampras, leading the H2H 5-4. And, when Stich was on, he could beat anyone, especially on fast courts, like when he won (1) the Grand Slam Cup in 1992, beating Sampras (again), Edberg, Krajicek, and Chang; and (2) Wimbledon in 1991, beating Courier, Edberg, and Becker.
 
From Sampras book, he hated playing Stich largely due 2nd serve as good as 1st. Stich good take his games to the highest of highs as seen vs Edberg, Becker at 91 W, Sampras at 93 ATP Champ and Muster at 96 RG. But as Pete noted in his book. Stich was never comfortable at the top and results were not always consistent. Plus baseliner like Agassi took him to woodshed.
 
dryeagle said:
From Sampras book, he hated playing Stich largely due 2nd serve as good as 1st. Stich good take his games to the highest of highs as seen vs Edberg, Becker at 91 W, Sampras at 93 ATP Champ and Muster at 96 RG. But as Pete noted in his book. Stich was never comfortable at the top and results were not always consistent. Plus baseliner like Agassi took him to woodshed.
Click to expand...
I might amend that to say "baseliner[] like Agassi."

I would say that the best baseliners of that era after Agassi were:

Courier: Stich led the H2H 7-5
Chang: H2H was 3-3
Muster: Stich led the H2H 3-2
 
I think the issue is what is the indoor surface? Today, indoors is pretty much just a hard court... Up until around 2000 indoors=carpet, and that was dominated by the big serves and flat groundstrokes. For the carpet era, I would say Sampras and Becker. Post carpet, Fed and Djoker
 
StringGuruMRT said:
I think the issue is what is the indoor surface? Today, indoors is pretty much just a hard court... Up until around 2000 indoors=carpet, and that was dominated by the big serves and flat groundstrokes. For the carpet era, I would say Sampras and Becker. Post carpet, Fed and Djoker
Click to expand...
TRUE!
 
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